DB Cooper

[olemisscub 582]

3 hours ago, Nicholas Broughton said:

Cliff: “There is another airway to the west called Victor 165 that still would be fairly low. 

V27 and 165 were the same thing. This is a sectional from June 1971.

 

 

[Kamkisky 30]

Ryan - you said on tonight’s live that both V23 and V27 “go out south from Seattle.” It’s at the 41 minute mark. This was part of your point that a Cooper didn’t give enough instructions and they could have taken the alternative route of V27. 

vfrmap.com

I’m not an aviation person. What I see on this map is that V27 takes the plane from SeaTac to Ocean Shores, WA. That’s not south. It’s damn near due west. Cooper is wearing a parachute. The coast means death to him. He accepts a plane flying straight west why? 

Technically you’re right, they could have gone that way. They could have gone north too. Both are not the agreed upon direction.

Cooper was clear, no coast airports and only airports to the south. The idea he was going to be cool with the plane going west after just negotiating south I don’t understand and I see no evidence for it.

West is also the worst direction for Cooper. 

My point is, they discussed it in the cockpit but it’s not what Cooper demanded or agreed to. There’s no evidence he would have accepted it, there’s plenty of evidence he wouldn’t have. 

 

 

 

Edited August 21 by Kamkisky

[lxchilton 10]

8 hours ago, Kamkisky said:

Ryan - you said on tonight’s live that both V23 and V27 “go out south from Seattle.” It’s at the 41 minute mark. This was part of your point that a Cooper didn’t give enough instructions and they could have taken the alternative route of V27. 

vfrmap.com

I’m not an aviation person. What I see on this map is that V27 takes the plane from SeaTac to Ocean Shores, WA. That’s not south. It’s damn near due west. Cooper is wearing a parachute. The coast means death to him. He accepts a plane flying straight west why? 

Technically you’re right, they could have gone that way. They could have gone north too. Both are not the agreed upon direction.

Cooper was clear, no coast airports and only airports to the south. The idea he was going to be cool with the plane going west after just negotiating south I don’t understand and I see no evidence for it.

West is also the worst direction for Cooper. 

My point is, they discussed it in the cockpit but it’s not what Cooper demanded or agreed to. There’s no evidence he would have accepted it, there’s plenty of evidence he wouldn’t have. 

 

 

 

The whole thing is ambiguous enough that he could have either known exactly what he was doing or literally had no idea. I lean towards some understanding of it, but it really could have been more of the copious luck that Cooper seemed to have.

[FLYJACK 785]

9 hours ago, Kamkisky said:

Ryan - you said on tonight’s live that both V23 and V27 “go out south from Seattle.” It’s at the 41 minute mark. This was part of your point that a Cooper didn’t give enough instructions and they could have taken the alternative route of V27. 

vfrmap.com

I’m not an aviation person. What I see on this map is that V27 takes the plane from SeaTac to Ocean Shores, WA. That’s not south. It’s damn near due west. Cooper is wearing a parachute. The coast means death to him. He accepts a plane flying straight west why? 

Technically you’re right, they could have gone that way. They could have gone north too. Both are not the agreed upon direction.

Cooper was clear, no coast airports and only airports to the south. The idea he was going to be cool with the plane going west after just negotiating south I don’t understand and I see no evidence for it.

West is also the worst direction for Cooper. 

My point is, they discussed it in the cockpit but it’s not what Cooper demanded or agreed to. There’s no evidence he would have accepted it, there’s plenty of evidence he wouldn’t have. 

 

 

 

Wrong.. they discussed taking the coast extensively then cutting back..

V27 goes South down the coast..

COOPER HAD NO INPUT...

You are stuck in your own false narrative.

Edited August 21 by FLYJACK

[FLYJACK 785]

Ryan, you still have height screwed up.... and are misleading by conflating reported height and standing in shoes.

FBI used 5-8'' as the lower bound for suspects... and warned agents to not eliminate based solely on height to 5-8"..

Let's say a suspect has a reported height of 5-8" add an inch for shoes = 5-9" Tina said 5-10" - 6'.. That is only a 1 inch difference not 4...

The original Cooper description was 5-9" - 6'...

Flo saw Cooper standing before she knew he was the hijacker and the ticket agents didn't know he was a hijacker and would not recognize him again... Lysne and Williams aren't reliable.

The stature and weight is also a clue,, they don't match a 6' tall person. Most said medium to heavy build and the average was 170 lbs..  the male passengers were less about 158 lbs average.. That weight /build does not match a 6' tall person..

Mitchell and Gregory had Cooper at 5-9" seated and Bill who was 6-2" said Cooper was much smaller than him...  

"I was way bigger than him and I could’ve, you know, I could’ve grabbed him and jerked him out of his seat. But I never would have done that. " Bill Mitchell

Cooper was not close to Bill's height..

The male passengers sized up Cooper to be smaller than the stews did,,,  men are better at sizing up other males than women are... even seated..

Cooper's height was not at the upper range,, 

Edited August 21 by FLYJACK

[olemisscub 582]

1 hour ago, FLYJACK said:

 

The male passengers sized up Cooper to be smaller than the stews did,,,  men are better at sizing up other males than women are... even seated..

 

And yet you disregard the testimony of an eyewitness who is both MALE and who saw him STANDING in favor of men who only saw him seated and who stated that he was slouching the whole time? And before you say it, I’m aware that Williams said he wasn’t sure if he’d recognize Cooper again. That doesn’t negate his impression of the man’s size, which is far easier to recall than details of a man’s face. It would help to know Hal’s height, but I’ve been unable to find it as yet.

I have no dog in the height game. These are unbiased opinions on my part, central to those opinions are how hard it is for me to believe that a man would come face to face with another man who was 5’8 or 5’9 and then tell agents that he was “6’1+”. That’s extremely improbable. It’s more likely that an eyewitness who saw a slouching man in a seat would be off in their height estimation as opposed to eyewitness who came face to face with a man in a neutral setting like an airport terminal.

I just don’t find it to be a coincidence that the smallest estimations of his height all come from people who only ever saw him sitting.

We’ll always disagree on this, I suppose. That’s fine.

The FBI were casting a wide net with their height range. I don’t fault them for that. 

Edited August 21 by olemisscub

[Kamkisky 30]

2 hours ago, FLYJACK said:

Wrong.. they discussed taking the coast extensively then cutting back..

V27 goes South down the coast..

COOPER HAD NO INPUT...

You are stuck in your own false narrative.

Unless I’m reading the map wrong V27 is west.  It goes from Sea Tac basically dead west from the airport to the coast. Cooper just agreed to south and no coastal airports, he is wearing a parachute. There is nothing to suggest he would have been ok with the plane taking off and heading directly to the ocean. It’s not a false narrative, assuming he would have accepted that is a false narrative. 
 

Taking V27 is trying to kill a parajacker.  

Edited August 21 by Kamkisky

[FLYJACK 785]

45 minutes ago, olemisscub said:

And yet you disregard the testimony of an eyewitness who is both MALE and who saw him STANDING in favor of men who only saw him seated and who stated that he was slouching the whole time? And before you say it, I’m aware that Williams said he wasn’t sure if he’d recognize Cooper again. That doesn’t negate his impression of the man’s size, which is far easier to recall than details of a man’s face. It would help to know Hal’s height, but I’ve been unable to find it as yet.

I have no dog in the height game. These are unbiased opinions on my part, central to those opinions are how hard it is for me to believe that a man would come face to face with another man who was 5’8 or 5’9 and then tell agents that he was “6’1+”. That’s extremely improbable. It’s more likely that an eyewitness who saw a slouching man in a seat would be off in their height estimation as opposed to eyewitness who came face to face with a man in a neutral setting like an airport terminal.

I just don’t find it to be a coincidence that the smallest estimations of his height all come from people who only ever saw him sitting.

We’ll always disagree on this, I suppose. That’s fine.

The FBI were casting a wide net with their height range. I don’t fault them for that. 

You still don't get it,,, self reported height vs standing in shoes..

Hal didn't know he was the hijacker at the time, just another passenger of hundreds,, Hal said he wouldn't recognize him and Hal's height was an outlier,, NO, Hal is not credible.. When people are asked to recall height they are guessing because they are asked for a number.. these height accounts are not based on equal experiences by the witnesses but you have weighted them equal. They are NOT.

Sure, the male plane witnesses saw Cooper sitting but that doesn't mean they were wrong...  they also had him lighter.. that is not distorted by being seated.

Cooper was not close to Bill's height... 

Cooper had a medium build and 160-170 lbs..  that is NOT a 6' tall person.

Hahneman was 5-8 1/2 without shoes...  that is 5-9 1/2 in shoes.. only a half inch below Tina's estimate and bang on Mitchell and Gregory. You keep failing to account for shoes, the variability of witness experiences and the reliability of height recall.. IT IS NOT 80% accurate..  you are falsely comparing a study to NORJAK.. 

It isn't a 4 inch difference, you fail to account for shoes.. A guy reported 5-7" would be 5-8" in shoes..  A 6 ft person would have a reported height of 5' 11"...

The FBI used 5-8" as the lower bound because some witnesses had Cooper at 5-9" and reported heights almost always do not account for shoes.. Reported heights underestimate standing height in shoes.. 

Also, a problem in NORJAK is a small sample size of witnesses...

I found many reported heights for Hahneman... 5-8, 5-8.5 and 5-9....

Many witnesses had Hahneman at 6'...  he was 5-9.5 in shoes",, that busts your argument into a million pieces.

Edited August 21 by FLYJACK

[FLYJACK 785]

32 minutes ago, Kamkisky said:

Unless I’m reading the map wrong V27 is west.  It goes from Sea Tac basically dead west from the airport to the coast. Cooper just agreed to south and no coastal airports, he is wearing a parachute. There is nothing to suggest he would have been ok with the plane taking off and heading directly to the ocean. It’s not a false narrative, assuming he would have accepted that is a false narrative. 

No, it goes to the coast and then South right down the coastline. Also called 165.

Cooper never said no coastal airports, he said no large airports. You are making it up.

It is a false narrative,, you are stuck in an opinion and are dismissing facts and making up stuff to maintain it.. 

Cooper had no input on the path... V27/165 is actually better because it is less populated.. they discussed it extensively so it was a real option.

In those conditions he would not even know which path the plane took..

His jump spot was not planned, predetermined or targeted.

[olemisscub 582]

24 minutes ago, FLYJACK said:

 

Many witnesses had Hahneman at 6'...  he was 5-9.5 in shoes",, that busts your argument into a million pieces.

I'd like to see your evidence of many people thinking Hahneman was 6'. If I see evidence of multiple people believing Hahneman was 6', then perhaps I'd begin to agree with you. Otherwise it doesn't bust my argument to pieces because I'm just having to take your word for it. And pretty please with sugar on top don't claim that your evidence of people saying he was 6' is some sort of proprietary information for a documentary. If you don't want to share this never before seen photo or sketch of Cooper, sure, that's fair play to not share that. But multiple eyewitnesses saying Hahneman was 6' is another thing entirely. You can share that. 

 

Edited August 21 by olemisscub

[FLYJACK 785]

6 minutes ago, olemisscub said:

I'd like to see your evidence of many people thinking Hahneman was 6'. If I see evidence of multiple people believing Hahneman was 6', then perhaps I'd begin to agree with you. Otherwise it doesn't bust my argument to pieces because I'm just having to take your word for it. And pretty please with sugar on top don't claim that your evidence of people saying he was 6' is some sort of proprietary information for a documentary. If you don't want to share this never before seen photo or sketch of Cooper, sure, that's fair play to not share that. But multiple eyewitnesses saying Hahneman was 6' is another thing entirely. You can share that. 

 

It is true and part of a project I am doing so I don't want to make it public.. I don't make false claims.

It will come out eventually, but you don't even need that to see the flaws in your argument, it just the kill shot.. 

Edited August 21 by FLYJACK

[Nicholas Broughton 90]

Victor 165/27 looks the best with regard to altitude, but there are two problems with it. First, it is 129 statute miles longer (I think over-water flight requires 1 hour reserve fuel rather than the standard 30 min). Also, you lose a “degree of freedom” by flying on the coast. In other words, in an emergency you can only go east to find an emergency landing site (on land) and surely a nut-case with a bomb and flying dirty with the stairs down might precipitate an emergency.

That leaves Victor 23 as the only “real choice”. 

Cliff Ammerman said as much and that’s good enough for me. 

“Yes certainly, If you’re going to fly south at ten thousand feet, Victor 23 would be the, the option that I think almost anybody would take.”

Edited August 21 by Nicholas Broughton

[FLYJACK 785]

22 minutes ago, Nicholas Broughton said:

Victor 165/27 looks the best with regard to altitude, but there are two problems with it. First, it is 129 statute miles longer (I think over-water flight requires 1 hour reserve fuel rather than the standard 30 min). Also, you lose a “degree of freedom” by flying on the coast. In other words, in an emergency you can only go east to find an emergency landing site (on land) and surely a nut-case with a bomb and flying dirty with the stairs down might precipitate an emergency.

That leaves Victor 23 as the only “real choice”. 

Cliff Ammerman said as much and that’s good enough for me. 

“Yes certainly, If you’re going to fly south at ten thousand feet, Victor 23 would be the, the option that I think almost anybody would take.”

Nonsense,,, they seriously discussed taking the coastal route.. that puts in play.

The denial is strong on this one...

"good enough for me" isn't much of an endorsement... 

Edited August 21 by FLYJACK

[olemisscub 582]

25 minutes ago, FLYJACK said:

It is true and part of a project I am doing so I don't want to make it public.. I don't make false claims.

It will come out eventually, but you don't even need that to see the flaws in your argument, it just the kill shot.. 

My argument is just common sense. Multiple people thinking someone who is 6 feet or taller who is actually 5’8 is certainly going to be the exception and not the rule. You can twist yourself into a pretzel and write five paragraphs trying to explain that away, but my argument is just common sense. We are all humans. We understand height.

We have four witnesses who saw him standing and three of them put him as tall as six feet. The other went as tall as 5’11. I’m sure you can find an occasion where someone thought someone was six foot who was 5’8, but you’re having to argue that essentially EVERY eyewitness who saw him standing was THAT far off. That’s really improbable. 

For your suspect to be Cooper, just think about how terrible the bulk of the eyewitnesses have to be with regard to height and facial features. Absolutely dreadful eyewitnesses would be necessary for him to be Cooper. No offense meant here, but maybe your suspect is the problem and not the witnesses? 

[Kamkisky 30]

38 minutes ago, FLYJACK said:

Nonsense,,, they seriously discussed taking the coastal route.. that puts in play.

The denial is strong on this one...

"good enough for me" isn't much of an endorsement... 

This is the gap. Yes, they discussed it. They didn’t understand what the hell was going on. They didn’t know why he wanted to be depressurized. They were talking crazy.

People are arguing from the cockpit’s point of view. What I’m saying is from Cooper’s point of view.

Reno. Agreed. That’s where the plane will fly to. 

The plane takes off and goes directly west. WTF? No. Cooper can’t jump at the ocean. Flying west defeats his entire escape plan. There’s zero, and I mean that in the absolutist sense, there is zero reason for him to accept that. Not one. It’s not what he just agreed to. It’s funny stuff. It’s a damn good way to get the cockpit door opened and be staring down the barrel of a gun. 

Edited August 21 by Kamkisky

[Nicholas Broughton 90]

Yeah, they technically could have chosen either, but ALL things considered, there are clear reasons why they chose V-23. It doesn’t come down to a 50/50 coin flip call after flight ops takes everything into account imo. Now would Cooper have known that and about Victor airways…. he may have just thought jets flew around however they wanted so who knows? But if he knew that IFR clearance could be picked up in the air and wasn’t just saying that to hurry things along, then I’d guess he probably did. It comes down to who you see Cooper as and how much credit you want to give the guy at the end of the day. How much luck was dumb vs manufactured by Cooper?  He’s either being very strategic if he believes V23 is a sure bet or completely winging it by not requesting V23. I say that because requesting V23 might show his hand a bit and reduce the search area from all the way to Reno, if LE read into that request. I tend to want to believe that the reason he was successful and we are still here almost 54 years later is because he stacked the deck the best he knew how. That entails carrying out a thorough enough plan from start to finish, while leaving as little to chance as he could without compromising his big picture. 

 

Edited August 21 by Nicholas Broughton

[FLYJACK 785]

42 minutes ago, olemisscub said:

My argument is just common sense. Multiple people thinking someone who is 6 feet or taller who is actually 5’8 is certainly going to be the exception and not the rule. You can twist yourself into a pretzel and write five paragraphs trying to explain that away, but my argument is just common sense. We are all humans. We understand height.

We have four witnesses who saw him standing and three of them put him as tall as six feet. The other went as tall as 5’11. I’m sure you can find an occasion where someone thought someone was six foot who was 5’8, but you’re having to argue that essentially EVERY eyewitness who saw him standing was THAT far off. That’s really improbable. 

For your suspect to be Cooper, just think about how terrible the bulk of the eyewitnesses have to be with regard to height and facial features. Absolutely dreadful eyewitnesses would be necessary for him to be Cooper. No offense meant here, but maybe your suspect is the problem and not the witnesses? 

It actually isn't common sense...  it is misapplied generalizations.. a form of fallacy..

I have the kill shot on height... you are trying to bring in other things that aren't relevant here.

This applies to any suspect.. 

[FLYJACK 785]

41 minutes ago, Kamkisky said:

This is the gap. Yes, they discussed it. They didn’t understand what the hell was going on. They didn’t know why he wanted to be depressurized. They were talking crazy.

People are arguing from the cockpit’s point of view. What I’m saying is from Cooper’s point of view.

Reno. Agreed. That’s where the plane will fly to. 

The plane takes off and goes directly west. WTF? No. Cooper can’t jump at the ocean. Flying west defeats his entire escape plan. There’s zero, and I mean that in the absolutist sense, there is zero reason for him to accept that. Not one. It’s not what he just agreed to. It’s funny stuff. It’s a damn good way to get the cockpit door opened and be staring down the barrel of a gun. 

Too many assumptions to have any validity..

From Cooper's point of view he gave no path.. they discussed going down the coast which makes it a legitimate option. Cooper would not even know which path they took in those conditions..  

Flying Coast only defeats his plan IF he had planned to jump where he did,, IF he planned to jump South of the US border it made no difference.. 

It is complicated but you have to divide this into two separate scenarios,, before Reno was in play and after.. if you conflate them then nothing makes sense.

[Nicholas Broughton 90]

1 hour ago, FLYJACK said:

It actually isn't common sense...  it is misapplied generalizations.. a form of fallacy..

I have the kill shot on height... you are trying to bring in other things that aren't relevant here.

This applies to any suspect.. 

You don’t have anything until it’s produced. This applies to anything in the vortex. If you’re that bothered by the stance Ryan continues to express on his lives about the height, then bring the goods NOW and potentially sway his opinion on the matter or don’t. That’s certainly your prerogative. But maybe just put a pin in this until the receipts are on record? Because as it stands now… you two are clearly at loggerheads on the issue and any further debate at this point is just beating a dead horse.

Edited August 21 by Nicholas Broughton

[Kamkisky 30]

1 hour ago, FLYJACK said:

Too many assumptions to have any validity..

From Cooper's point of view he gave no path.. they discussed going down the coast which makes it a legitimate option. Cooper would not even know which path they took in those conditions..  

Flying Coast only defeats his plan IF he had planned to jump where he did,, IF he planned to jump South of the US border it made no difference.. 

It is complicated but you have to divide this into two separate scenarios,, before Reno was in play and after.. if you conflate them then nothing makes sense.

I think your own version conflicts with your above statement. By the time they take off from SeaTac they’ve agreed to Reno. In your version this new agreement is what causes Cooper to change plans and jump early (before Mexico). This only makes them flying west from the airport worse. If Cooper is like oh crap change of plans I got to bail soon, west is a death sentence. Once they make the coast he is toast or he has to tell them to fly back inland…which is my point. A parajacker looking to jump can’t have them flying the coast.
 

There is zero reason he’d accept the plane flying straight towards the ocean at take off. 

Let’s test that…can anyone name a single reason a parajacker wearing a chute looking to jump soon would want to fly directly to the ocean after just agreeing to Reno? 

Edited August 21 by Kamkisky

[georger 271]

1 hour ago, Kamkisky said:

I think your own version conflicts with your above statement. By the time they take off from SeaTac they’ve agreed to Reno. In your version this new agreement is what causes Cooper to change plans and jump early (before Mexico). This only makes them flying west from the airport worse. If Cooper is like oh crap change of plans I got to bail soon, west is a death sentence. Once they make the coast he is toast or he has to tell them to fly back inland…which is my point. A parajacker looking to jump can’t have them flying the coast.
 

There is zero reason he’d accept the plane flying straight towards the ocean at take off. 

Let’s test that…can anyone name a single reason a parajacker wearing a chute looking to jump soon would want to fly directly to the ocean after just agreeing to Reno? 

This is not complicated. No reason to guess at a pscyho analysis of the maldum fornax !!!

Very likely somebody assigned them a route or they got permission to take a route.

THEY DID NOT JUST PUT THEMSELVES ON A ROUT - WITHOUT PERMISSION!

PLANES DO NOT JUST FOP AROUND THE SKY WITHOUT PERMISSION FROM SOMEBODY!

That is one logical place to start. Who gave them permission? Somebody in the Tower gave them permission to be anywhere or do this vs that ... Ammerman? Somebody call Cliff and ask him! We know somebody told them to do whatever they wanted or needed to do! That much is in the record... so they flew V23. 

There were other planes in the sky at the same time. Air traffic around Seattle was not shut down for them alone! V23 was apparently open ........... so they took it! And somebody approved of that. It was a pilot/controller decision!  Everyone was listening!

Edited August 21 by georger

[lxchilton 10]

3 hours ago, FLYJACK said:

Too many assumptions to have any validity..

From Cooper's point of view he gave no path.. they discussed going down the coast which makes it a legitimate option. Cooper would not even know which path they took in those conditions..  

Flying Coast only defeats his plan IF he had planned to jump where he did,, IF he planned to jump South of the US border it made no difference.. 

It is complicated but you have to divide this into two separate scenarios,, before Reno was in play and after.. if you conflate them then nothing makes sense.

The number of assumptions any of us is making is large enough to be worrisome; the problem is that there are so many damn variables that we don't have a choice. I understand that you think your variables are...better...but it unfortunately doesn't make that the truth. 

It is very probably that Cooper assumed that they would fly south from Seattle and he would just jump when he thought he was nearing Portland. It's the simplest plan because it's where he started from; transportation will be close. Now why did he assume that they would fly south? It could have been that he was completely in the dark about flightpaths or he could have engineered it, or at least was confident in engineering it. The fact that he never tells anyone to fly a certain path suggests that it wasn't high on his list of "stuff that has to happen" and we don't know why that is. 

Maybe he did some huge calculus between learning that the landing had to be in the United States, but it seems vastly simpler that he didn't actually care where they plane went as long as people thought he was in it the whole time. There are far fewer assumptions with that scenario than one where we assume that he did some sort of mental gymnastics that there is no real evidence for.

[CooperNWO305 161]

4 hours ago, FLYJACK said:

It actually isn't common sense...  it is misapplied generalizations.. a form of fallacy..

I have the kill shot on height... you are trying to bring in other things that aren't relevant here.

This applies to any suspect.. 

Fly. Don’t you know you have to run things through Nicky and Ryan for approval? Or at least EU? I think the FBI should check with Nicky too before they discuss the case there at their field office. 

[FLYJACK 785]

2 hours ago, georger said:

This is not complicated. No reason to guess at a pscyho analysis of the maldum fornax !!!

Very likely somebody assigned them a route or they got permission to take a route.

THEY DID NOT JUST PUT THEMSELVES ON A ROUT - WITHOUT PERMISSION!

PLANES DO NOT JUST FOP AROUND THE SKY WITHOUT PERMISSION FROM SOMEBODY!

That is one logical place to start. Who gave them permission? Somebody in the Tower gave them permission to be anywhere or do this vs that ... Ammerman? Somebody call Cliff and ask him! We know somebody told them to do whatever they wanted or needed to do! That much is in the record... so they flew V23. 

There were other planes in the sky at the same time. Air traffic around Seattle was not shut down for them alone! V23 was apparently open ........... so they took it! And somebody approved of that. It was a pilot/controller decision!  Everyone was listening!

You need to read the files..

[FLYJACK 785]

41 minutes ago, CooperNWO305 said:

Fly. Don’t you know you have to run things through Nicky and Ryan for approval? Or at least EU? I think the FBI should check with Nicky too before they discuss the case there at their field office. 

Right, forgot about that..