DB Cooper

[olemisscub 582]

1 hour ago, FLYJACK said:

 

So, we have two options..

Cooper recognized them as old bailout rigs and jumped anyway.. NOT rejecting them and demanding mains/front reserves. 

or 

Cooper didn't recognize them as bailout rigs and jumped.

 

The problem is we can't possibly ever know which of those two options is correct, and there is nothing to sway us one way or the other, so to have the answer we would literally have to be in Cooper's mind, which obviously we can't do. So I don't see this particular line of inquiry to be helpful. 

For me, the only aspect of Cooper's parachuting acumen that we can have reasonable confidence in knowing is the belief that he was NOT a recreational skydiver of any sort. We know how the skydiver copycats behaved and we know how the non-skydiver copycats behaved. There is little doubt that his behavior falls in line with the latter category. 

On a sliding scale of "parachuting know-how" among all of the parajackers, Cooper seems to fall in the middle. Yet the main reasons I place him in the middle of the road, aside from Tina saying he seemed comfortable putting it on, really come from one source: Tosaw.

He is our ONLY source for Cooper complaining about D-rings and him looking at packing cards, which are the two things that really elevate him above the McNally's and Fisher's of the world. As I've said numerous times, I would lean toward Tosaw getting that from Tina back when her memory was closer to the event than it certainly is now. Additionally, Tosaw was of the belief that Cooper was foolish and got himself killed. It doesn't benefit the narrative of his book to give Cooper enough parachuting knowledge to know what D-rings were and to know what packing cards were. So I would lean toward him not making that up. The packing cards especially would be a bizarre detail to invent for Tosaw.

However, there have to be some slight embellishments or artistic licenses found within Tosaw's narrative. That's just the reality you face when writing a vivid narrative like he did. So might him bitching about the D-rings be one of those?

Regardless, as I said, the only thing we can be reasonably confident in given the case evidence and comparative evidence with the other parajackers is that Cooper would have gone about things differently if he was a rec skydiver. 

[FLYJACK 785]

1 hour ago, olemisscub said:

The problem is we can't possibly ever know which of those two options is correct, and there is nothing to sway us one way or the other, so to have the answer we would literally have to be in Cooper's mind, which obviously we can't do. So I don't see this particular line of inquiry to be helpful. 

For me, the only aspect of Cooper's parachuting acumen that we can have reasonable confidence in knowing is the belief that he was NOT a recreational skydiver of any sort. We know how the skydiver copycats behaved and we know how the non-skydiver copycats behaved. There is little doubt that his behavior falls in line with the latter category. 

On a sliding scale of "parachuting know-how" among all of the parajackers, Cooper seems to fall in the middle. Yet the main reasons I place him in the middle of the road, aside from Tina saying he seemed comfortable putting it on, really come from one source: Tosaw.

He is our ONLY source for Cooper complaining about D-rings and him looking at packing cards, which are the two things that really elevate him above the McNally's and Fisher's of the world. As I've said numerous times, I would lean toward Tosaw getting that from Tina back when her memory was closer to the event than it certainly is now. Additionally, Tosaw was of the belief that Cooper was foolish and got himself killed. It doesn't benefit the narrative of his book to give Cooper enough parachuting knowledge to know what D-rings were and to know what packing cards were. So I would lean toward him not making that up. The packing cards especially would be a bizarre detail to invent for Tosaw.

However, there have to be some slight embellishments or artistic licenses found within Tosaw's narrative. That's just the reality you face when writing a vivid narrative like he did. So might him bitching about the D-rings be one of those?

Regardless, as I said, the only thing we can be reasonably confident in given the case evidence and comparative evidence with the other parajackers is that Cooper would have gone about things differently if he was a rec skydiver. 

Well, I generally agree... 

except for one thing,, my question is the delta between jumping with a bailout rig and a main/reserve.. 

Would any jumpers use a bailout rig vs main/reserve...

They are not the same... in performance or risk.

and remember, the Pioneer at the museum is a civilian container.. the one Cooper used was military but I do not believe it was an NB6/8,,  it was likely a WW2 military version.. similar to the tan Pioneer.

 

I am looking through the Poynter riggers handbook  and there are lots and lots of military rigs that were manual or rigged with automatic deployment systems.. too many to list. Back mains and front reserves..

They list military model numbers...  I don't recognize.

One example 1947... there are many...

 

Edited August 11 by FLYJACK

[dudeman17 376]

6 hours ago, FLYJACK said:

The military started doing ripcord freefalls in the late 50's..

The fact is there was main/front reserve military gear available.

 

Yes, of course. But that was not the majority.

 

6 hours ago, FLYJACK said:

At that time bailout rigs were constructed differently,

 

And they still are. Any part of a parachute component that will be used in an emergency use chute has to be tested to FAA TSO standards.

 

6 hours ago, FLYJACK said:

non steerable, opened harder, landed harder and had a higher risk of injury.

 

This has been addressed. If you don't want to accept the answer, then don't. But one thing you keep doing is looking at the rig as a whole, and not separating the container from the various canopies that might be in it.

 

7 hours ago, FLYJACK said:

So, we have two options..

Cooper recognized them as old bailout rigs and jumped anyway.. NOT rejecting them and demanding mains/front reserves. 

or 

Cooper didn't recognize them as bailout rigs and jumped.

 

My guess is the first. But ultimately we don't know.

 

7 hours ago, FLYJACK said:

So, I asked which would a jumper choose..  a 30 year old pilot bailout rig or a main/reserve..  What is the delta for that decision..

 

Dudeman17 refused to answer after at least three attempts to ask and chose to twist assumptions to fit his personal opinion. 

 

Bullshit. I answered that question each time you asked it. If you want to reject my answer, that's your prerogative. But to say that I refused to answer and twisted it, that is you flat out lying. Hypocrite.

 

7 hours ago, FLYJACK said:

Both of you have completely lost the plot...

 

It seems to me that you have lost your mind. You've changed recently. Has someone hacked your account? You are smarter than this.

[FLYJACK 785]

8 hours ago, dudeman17 said:

 

Yes, of course. But that was not the majority.

 

 

And they still are. Any part of a parachute component that will be used in an emergency use chute has to be tested to FAA TSO standards.

 

 

This has been addressed. If you don't want to accept the answer, then don't. But one thing you keep doing is looking at the rig as a whole, and not separating the container from the various canopies that might be in it.

 

 

My guess is the first. But ultimately we don't know.

 

 

Bullshit. I answered that question each time you asked it. If you want to reject my answer, that's your prerogative. But to say that I refused to answer and twisted it, that is you flat out lying. Hypocrite.

 

 

It seems to me that you have lost your mind. You've changed recently. Has someone hacked your account? You are smarter than this.

Look, you are wrong and never answered my question... take a hike.

I am done with your nonsense..

[FLYJACK 785]

Yes, Ryan was wrong and made up "sporterized" to rationalize his assumption.. 

The military had "manual" parachute rigs from at least the 40's.. lots of them.

Mark M. said sport jumpers would not use the term front and back and the evidence indicates Cooper was most certainly military.. 

The term "front and back" in the military means mains and front chest reserve NOT a pilot bailout rig..  that can be either static or manual parachutes.

Cooper did not ask for or expect 30 year old pilot bailout rigs.

Cooper had at least some parachute experience.

Pilot bailout rigs (back reserves) of that era are not steerable, open harder, land harder and increase risk of injury.. Dudeman is wrong.

Using a bailout rig means you can't target any spot. With a potential 6 mile drift that would be a 113 sq mi landing zone.

Manual military mains had some steerability.

Cooper had the time to reject the pilot bailout rig and get the main/reserve.

 

There is a big difference between a WW2 bailout rig and a manual military parachute consisting of a main/reserve...  in function, purpose and safety. Dudeman is wrong.

 

So, why would Cooper use an old pilot bailout rig instead of the rig he asked for, higher risk of injury, no reserve, no steerability, no targeting an LZ.. A main/reserve is far superior in those conditions..

 

Would any jumper use a bailout rig in those conditions vs main/reserve? Not likely.

 

Either

he did not realize it was a pilot bailout rig, he just assumed it was a main without D rings

Or

he didn't really care about his own safety and took a massive risk jumping with an old bailout rig and not demanding the main/reserve he requested.

 

and I would still like to have a jumper answer my question,,,  would you make that jump in those conditions with an old pilot bailout rig..

 

 

 

 

 

[olemisscub 582]

1 hour ago, FLYJACK said:

 

and I would still like to have a jumper answer my question,,,  would you make that jump in those conditions with an old pilot bailout rig..

 

Mike Davis has said he would do the Cooper jump with an NB-6 if he knew it was recently packed by a certified rigger. 

 

[olemisscub 582]

1 hour ago, FLYJACK said:

 

So, why would Cooper use an old pilot bailout rig instead of the rig he asked for, higher risk of injury, no reserve, no steerability, no targeting an LZ.. A main/reserve is far superior in those conditions..

 

I feel like this has been asked and answered. The answer being that Cooper wasn't a skydiver nor was he some Braden-esque military parachutist. He was likely someone who had frequently worn parachutes in the military, either as a paratrooper or as a pilot/air crewman. 

[FLYJACK 785]

10 minutes ago, olemisscub said:

Mike Davis has said he would do the Cooper jump with an NB-6 if he knew it was recently packed by a certified rigger. 

 

A pilot bailout rig or a sport altered NB6...

vs a main/reserve?

I doubt it.. Mike is very experienced..

Edited August 12 by FLYJACK

[olemisscub 582]

2 minutes ago, FLYJACK said:

A pilot bailout rig or a sport altered NB6...

vs a main/reserve?

I doubt it..

Wait, you are saying VS?

I thought you were just asking in general if jumpers would take the risk of jumping with a bailout rig. 

OF COURSE he would choose the better gear if given the option. I mean...duh. 

Edited August 12 by olemisscub

[FLYJACK 785]

3 minutes ago, olemisscub said:

Wait, you are saying VS?

I thought you were just asking in general if jumpers would take the risk of jumping with a bailout rig. 

OF COURSE he would choose the better gear if given the option. I mean...duh. 

There are two questions..

Would a jumper use a pilot bailout rig in those conditions.. (not a sport jump modified NB6)

and 

Given the choice what is the psychological delta between using a bailout rig and main/reserve?  Why did Cooper choose the bailout rig vs rejecting it?

 

 

[FLYJACK 785]

17 minutes ago, olemisscub said:

I feel like this has been asked and answered. The answer being that Cooper wasn't a skydiver nor was he some Braden-esque military parachutist. He was likely someone who had frequently worn parachutes in the military, either as a paratrooper or as a pilot/air crewman. 

Partial answer... 

[olemisscub 582]

23 minutes ago, FLYJACK said:

Why did Cooper choose the bailout rig vs rejecting it?

 

Don't mistake my tone here, but I just don't think this is a question we as researchers could ever possibly know the answer to, so I'm not sure what the utility is for dwelling on it as much as you have. To me it'd be like a researcher fixating on why he chose 7-up instead of Coke as a mixer. We don't know who Cooper was so we can't even begin to come up with an answer to these sorts of questions that require us to completely dive into his mind. 

Edited August 12 by olemisscub

[FLYJACK 785]

6 minutes ago, olemisscub said:

Don't mistake my tone here, but I just don't think this is a question we as researchers could ever possibly know the answer to, so I'm not sure what the utility is for dwelling on it as much as you have. To me it'd be like a researcher fixating on why he chose 7-up instead of Coke as a mixer. We don't know who Cooper was so we can't even begin to come up with an answer to these sorts of questions that require us to completely dive into his mind. 

It can tell us something about him...  it is nothing like Coke vs 7-Up.. simply taste.

It is something that never made sense to me,,,  why jump with an old pilot bailout rig when he asked for a main/reserve setup. Seems like a very serious and important decision.

So, I am trying to establish the delta between those choices,, Cooper did have a choice. He chose the pilot bailout rig either on purpose or by not realizing it was a pilot bailout rig.

Both of those alternatives have ramifications.

 

If you don't see any value it in it that is up to you.. 

 

[Kamkisky 30]

1 hour ago, FLYJACK said:

It can tell us something about him...  it is nothing like Coke vs 7-Up.. simply taste.

It is something that never made sense to me,,,  why jump with an old pilot bailout rig when he asked for a main/reserve setup. Seems like a very serious and important decision.

So, I am trying to establish the delta between those choices,, Cooper did have a choice. He chose the pilot bailout rig either on purpose or by not realizing it was a pilot bailout rig.

Both of those alternatives have ramifications.

 

If you don't see any value it in it that is up to you.. 

 

He may have used the parachute given him for the same reason he used he money bag given to him...to limit trips on and off the airplane and get in the air as fast as possible. Getting in the air is more important that what type of chute or money bag he received...as long as the chute worked (he checked one, and packing cards) and as long as the money is green and all there. This is another one that doesn't seem like a mystery to me. It's called good enough, he clearly thought both were good enough and that was better than adding time to the ground. Remember, he didn't know how long the refueling would take. He wanted the show on the road. 

[FLYJACK 785]

59 minutes ago, Kamkisky said:

He may have used the parachute given him for the same reason he used he money bag given to him...to limit trips on and off the airplane and get in the air as fast as possible. Getting in the air is more important that what type of chute or money bag he received...as long as the chute worked (he checked one, and packing cards) and as long as the money is green and all there. This is another one that doesn't seem like a mystery to me. It's called good enough, he clearly thought both were good enough and that was better than adding time to the ground. Remember, he didn't know how long the refueling would take. He wanted the show on the road. 

Sure, it isn't a mystery because you are just guessing..  

It is more important than a bag.. 

When things don't make sense to me there is usually a good reason,, not some flakey guess and dismissal.

[Kamkisky 30]

36 minutes ago, FLYJACK said:

Sure, it isn't a mystery because you are just guessing..  

It is more important than a bag.. 

When things don't make sense to me there is usually a good reason,, not some flakey guess and dismissal.

I'm not guessing. He wanted to get the show on the road. 

It's also common sense (oddly applied to skyjacking) that being on the ground is bad and the more things he requests while on the ground the longer he is going to be on the ground. He had the shades pulled because he didn't want to get his head blown off by a sniper, that type of pressure would make one amenable to certain suboptimal compromises as long as it is all sufficient. 

[olemisscub 582]

 

2 hours ago, FLYJACK said:

 

Both of those alternatives have ramifications.

 

If you don't see any value it in it that is up to you.. 

 

but how are those alternatives helpful to the case when we can't possibly know which alternative is correct and both are equally valid? We're all in agreement that Cooper wasn't a recreational skydiver, so how do these two equally valid alternatives for why he didn't request better parachutes help us aside from them both providing additional evidence that he wasn't a rec skydiver?

 

[FLYJACK 785]

41 minutes ago, Kamkisky said:

I'm not guessing. He wanted to get the show on the road. 

It's also common sense (oddly applied to skyjacking) that being on the ground is bad and the more things he requests while on the ground the longer he is going to be on the ground. He had the shades pulled because he didn't want to get his head blown off by a sniper, that type of pressure would make one amenable to certain suboptimal compromises as long as it is all sufficient. 

It's a guess.

[FLYJACK 785]

30 minutes ago, olemisscub said:

 

but how are those alternatives helpful to the case when we can't possibly know which alternative is correct and both are equally valid? We're all in agreement that Cooper wasn't a recreational skydiver, so how do these two equally valid alternatives for why he didn't request better parachutes help us aside from them both providing additional evidence that he wasn't a rec skydiver?

 

We are in agreement except for Dudeman...

I don't believe they are equally valid,,, but that is what I am trying to sort out.

It may tell us something about his military experience or his psychology..

 

 

[Kamkisky 30]

1 hour ago, FLYJACK said:

It's a guess.

He said it. 

[FLYJACK 785]

1 hour ago, Kamkisky said:

He said it. 

So what,,  that was just before takeoff.. you are GUESSING that is why he used the bailout rig..

The plane took off about 1 hour 40 minutes after receiving the wrong chutes...

There is no reason he couldn't have rejected those rigs and demanded the ones he requested.

Cooper was responding to Tina saying to wait to file a flight plan... it was not necessary and had nothing to do with the chutes. To claim this comment is why Cooper used the bailout rigs is absurd.

 

Edited August 12 by FLYJACK

[Kamkisky 30]

5 hours ago, FLYJACK said:

So what,,  that was just before takeoff.. you are GUESSING that is why he used the bailout rig..

The plane took off about 1 hour 40 minutes after receiving the wrong chutes...

There is no reason he couldn't have rejected those rigs and demanded the ones he requested.

Cooper was responding to Tina saying to wait to file a flight plan... it was not necessary and had nothing to do with the chutes. To claim this comment is why Cooper used the bailout rigs is absurd.

 

Everyone is guessing why he used a bail out rig.

He also didn’t know when he got the chutes how long it would take to get off the ground, but he knew the more he asked for the longer it would be. You are looking at the situation in hindsight. 
 

The most straightforward answer is he found the chutes sufficient and moved on to other issues. Why is that the most straightforward answer? Because based on what we know 50 years later that’s exactly what he did. It requires no conjecture. It’s what happened. 

[FLYJACK 785]

26 minutes ago, Kamkisky said:

Everyone is guessing why he used a bail out rig.

He also didn’t know when he got the chutes how long it would take to get off the ground, but he knew the more he asked for the longer it would be. You are looking at the situation in hindsight. 
 

The most straightforward answer is he found the chutes sufficient and moved on to other issues. Why is that the most straightforward answer? Because based on what we know 50 years later that’s exactly what he did. It requires no conjecture. It’s what happened. 

So, you are claiming Cooper knew they were pilot bailout rigs not mains/reserves he asked for and used them anyway..  how do you know that?

[Kamkisky 30]

53 minutes ago, FLYJACK said:

So, you are claiming Cooper knew they were pilot bailout rigs not mains/reserves he asked for and used them anyway..  how do you know that?

I’m claiming on the priority list it didn’t rank high enough to bother either way. It was good enough. Just like the money bag was good enough. Just like Reno was good enough. Just like taking off with the aft stairs up was good enough. There’s a pattern here.

What wasn’t good enough was waiting around for a flight plan…nah, they need to pick that **** up in the air. He prioritized things. He was wanting to get off the damn ground. I don’t blame him. Money is green. Chute looks like it will open. Done deal. Next up.  

Edited August 13 by Kamkisky

[Kamkisky 30]

On 8/11/2025 at 11:18 AM, dudeman17 said:

 

I don't think anything he had, even the money, would weigh enough to be an issue. Of more concern would be how it is tied to him and how that might affect his exit and freefall aerodynamics. It would want to be centered, securely and tightly tied so as not to move around, and reasonably symmetrical. It would certainly help if he had freefall experience, but regardless of his stability, if he pulls he most likely gets open.

Thanks. I'm thinking about a communication device. Some options in that era could weigh up to 25-30 pounds and are square/rectangular, and would fit perfectly in the square/rectangle mystery bag and would explain the pizza box style way of holding it. If he put it in the briefcase, hooked up to the battery, he'd want to take it with him. Under this scenario he is jumping with the 22 pounds of cash plus at least that much more. Let's say 50 pounds all in besides his body weight and the parachute. Is that doable? 

The flat briefcase would make the backstop for the odd money bag of shifting bricks, giving it stability. He'd wrap the briefcase in paracord like he did the money bag, then weave paracord in and out like knitting, and tie the briefcase to his arms/parachute shoulder straps and harness style around his thighs, again probably leveraging the chute straps. He'd do the same knitting technique with the money bag, cinching that to the briefcase. He'd use a couple different strands of cord to do the knitting so it's not a single point of failure for either item. Presto...a belly bag with all the gear he needs. Is that concept viable or just the babbling of a someone who has never put on a parachute? 

Edited August 13 by Kamkisky