FLYJACK 785 #65951 August 8 17 minutes ago, olemisscub said: He seemed totally indifferent to what parachutes he was going to be given, otherwise he’d have been more specific beyond just describing in broad terms what he wanted when he said fronts and backs. I’ve used the analogy many times and I’ll stick with it. Cooper essentially asked for a truck and a trailer. He could have specified a Ford F-150 or a Chevy Silverado, but he didn’t. “Truck and a trailer” is as generic as “front and back”. You’re simply describing in the most general terms what you want. So they delivered Cooper a truck and a trailer but the truck had no trailer hitch. He bitches briefly about the lack of a trailer hitch but never bitched about the generic truck they gave him. As Chilton just said, this indicates that he didn’t care what type of truck they gave him or didn’t know trucks well enough to specify in the first place. Doubt it... big difference jumping with a main vs bailout. Your analogy isn't a good one.. a bailout rig doesn't have a reserve/trailer.. and a Chevy/Ford pickup are interchangeable.. a main and reserve are not. Asking for backs and fronts indicates a back main and front chest reserve. D ring complaint indicates he still thought they were main/reserves.. This issue has never really been explored before in this case. But either. Cooper didn't realize they were bailout rigs and jumped anyway.. indicates some/little parachute experience. or Cooper realized he got bailout rigs and jumped anyway.. he didn't reject them and ask for mains.. intentionally jumping with a bailout rig in those conditions tells us something about Cooper. But, how many jumpers would intentionally jump with a bailout rig in those conditions rather than refuse them and ask for a main.. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
lxchilton 10 #65952 August 8 42 minutes ago, FLYJACK said: But, how many jumpers would intentionally jump with a bailout rig in those conditions rather than refuse them and ask for a main.. It's a good question but you also have to include the fact that he's already so delayed by the fueling et al; Cooper has to weigh the value of each moment he's still on the ground as it's far more likely to impact his ability to complete his heist. No one can storm the plane in the air and so he might make decisions that are counterintuitive if we are trying to pin down his level of experience off of one or two actions. 1 Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
dudeman17 376 #65953 August 9 12 hours ago, FLYJACK said: Disagree,, you claim "most likely knows"... Right. The ultimate answer can not be definitively known, we are both claiming 'likely', we are just disagreeing on which way the likelihood leans. 12 hours ago, FLYJACK said: evidence indicates he had some parachute experience Yes. 12 hours ago, FLYJACK said: and it indicates he was not a sport jumper but had military experience What evidence indicates that? 12 hours ago, FLYJACK said: I found that some military bailout harnesses had D rings.. in WW2 an aircrew would wear a harness and attach a bailout rig in emergencies.. some used a front and some a back.. That is not an apt comparison. Those harnesses are outliers, they do not have a built on container. They are simply a harness with the rings. That would make them less cumbersome for the crewman to move about and do his duties. In the event of an emergency, he already has the harness on, he just needs to clip on the container/canopy. If I say they don't exist, you'll probably find one, but I can't imagine one of those having the clips on the back. That would require someone else to put it on you, and I think the idea is to be self-sufficient. But that's not what Cooper had. He had self-contained backpack harness/containers. 12 hours ago, FLYJACK said: If Cooper had only some/little... ...experience he wouldn't necessarily know they were bailout rigs based solely on the missing D rings.. And I say he likely would, along with it being a smaller container and also no capewells. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
dudeman17 376 #65954 August 9 9 hours ago, FLYJACK said: big difference jumping with a main vs bailout Not necessarily. In those days the round mains did not have all that much speed/maneuverability. Some reserves were steerable, and I'm not sure he would be able to tell if it was until he got under it. A primary difference would be that the reserve is likely a bit smaller canopy, but at Cooper's weight that may not make a huge difference. Again, those rigs are not designed to maim or kill you, they're designed to save you. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
FLYJACK 785 #65955 August 9 21 minutes ago, dudeman17 said: Not necessarily. In those days the round mains did not have all that much speed/maneuverability. Some reserves were steerable, and I'm not sure he would be able to tell if it was until he got under it. A primary difference would be that the reserve is likely a bit smaller canopy, but at Cooper's weight that may not make a huge difference. Again, those rigs are not designed to maim or kill you, they're designed to save you. Sure, there is a difference,, open harder, land harder higher likelihood of injury and no reserve back up chute... Given a choice who would choose a bailout rig... Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
FLYJACK 785 #65956 August 9 36 minutes ago, dudeman17 said: Right. The ultimate answer can not be definitively known, we are both claiming 'likely', we are just disagreeing on which way the likelihood leans. Yes. What evidence indicates that? That is not an apt comparison. Those harnesses are outliers, they do not have a built on container. They are simply a harness with the rings. That would make them less cumbersome for the crewman to move about and do his duties. In the event of an emergency, he already has the harness on, he just needs to clip on the container/canopy. If I say they don't exist, you'll probably find one, but I can't imagine one of those having the clips on the back. That would require someone else to put it on you, and I think the idea is to be self-sufficient. But that's not what Cooper had. He had self-contained backpack harness/containers. And I say he likely would, along with it being a smaller container and also no capewells. Point is if Cooper had limited parachute experience you assume he knew about those bailout rigs... he could have had experience with different rigs. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
dudeman17 376 #65957 August 9 55 minutes ago, FLYJACK said: you assume he knew about those bailout rigs... he could have had experience with different rigs The existence of parachutes is not a big mystery. I think most people in civilized society are aware that they exist, for sport, military, and emergency uses. Whatever experience he has increases that knowledge. 1 hour ago, FLYJACK said: Given a choice who would choose a bailout rig... But that's kind of the point - he didn't have a choice, that's what he was given. I think the choice he was making was 'get the show on the road' over increase his chances of getting arrested or killed by waiting for more. 1 Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
FLYJACK 785 #65958 August 9 9 hours ago, dudeman17 said: The existence of parachutes is not a big mystery. I think most people in civilized society are aware that they exist, for sport, military, and emergency uses. Whatever experience he has increases that knowledge. But that's kind of the point - he didn't have a choice, that's what he was given. I think the choice he was making was 'get the show on the road' over increase his chances of getting arrested or killed by waiting for more. What does that even mean... "existence of parachutes"... sounds silly. Cooper could have had military experience but not with a pilot bailout rig. He did have a choice... he didn't ask for a bailout rig and could have rejected them. He got the chutes about 6 PM and took off about 1.5 hours later... lots of time to get mains.. So, that urgency argument is false... Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
olemisscub 582 #65959 August 9 1 hour ago, FLYJACK said: What does that even mean... "existence of parachutes"... sounds silly. Cooper could have had military experience but not with a pilot bailout rig. He did have a choice... he didn't ask for a bailout rig and could have rejected them. He got the chutes about 6 PM and took off about 1.5 hours later... lots of time to get mains.. So, that urgency argument is false... You’ve been on this bailout rig thing for some time now. What’s your takeaway from it? What are you suggesting that this tells us about him? Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
FLYJACK 785 #65960 August 9 45 minutes ago, olemisscub said: You’ve been on this bailout rig thing for some time now. What’s your takeaway from it? What are you suggesting that this tells us about him? It is something that has been overlooked... Either.. Cooper knew it was a bailout rig and went with it anyway.. Or.. He didn't realize it was a bailout rig.. These tell us something about him,, the question I still haven't got a solid answer for is.... would a jumper use a bailout rig vs main/reserve in those conditions. Jumpers have said it was an easy jump... would they do it in a bailout rig.. no front reserve, hard open, hard landing, no steer, higher chance of injury and a huge landing zone.. 113 sq miles.. 2 Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
dudeman17 376 #65961 August 11 On 8/9/2025 at 6:03 AM, FLYJACK said: What does that even mean... "existence of parachutes"... sounds silly. Cooper could have had military experience but not with a pilot bailout rig. This may be a bit of an exaggeration, but you seem to think that Cooper likely had no clue whatsoever about bailout rigs. What I meant by that statement is that I disagree. Most whuffos running around do understand that there are parachutes, and different ones for different purposes. I would bet that if you put an intentional freefall rig and a bailout rig in front of them, many people with no more than a layman's understanding would be able to guess which one is which. Cooper had at least some experience, and wherever he got that he would most likely have encountered bailout rigs as well. His pilots and/or other crewmen would likely have had them. I think it would have been readily apparent to him what they were. You also seem to think that his experience was most likely military. Maybe so, but most military jumping of that era was static line paratroopers. If that was Cooper, I would expect him to address that in his request. I would expect him to want a freefall rig, but who knows, maybe he thought he'd attach the static line to the stairs or something. On 8/9/2025 at 6:03 AM, FLYJACK said: He got the chutes about 6 PM and took off about 1.5 hours later... lots of time to get mains.. So, that urgency argument is false... Did he know when they gave him the rigs that it would be an hour and a half before they took off? Or was that due to the fueling issues? Further adding to his time urgency issues? On 8/9/2025 at 8:12 AM, FLYJACK said: the question I still haven't got a solid answer for is.... would a jumper use a bailout rig vs main/reserve in those conditions. Jumpers have said it was an easy jump... would they do it in a bailout rig. Again, mains in those days did not have a whole lot more flight performance than reserves. But ultimately, you would likely get different answers from different jumpers. Most jumpers I've known, I don't think they'd commit a hijacking (or rob a bank) in the first place. On 8/9/2025 at 8:12 AM, FLYJACK said: no front reserve A bailout rig is a reserve, all but assuredly you get an open canopy. On 8/9/2025 at 8:12 AM, FLYJACK said: hard open Ok, so what? On 8/9/2025 at 8:12 AM, FLYJACK said: hard landing Only because it's a smaller canopy. At Cooper's weight, not that big of a deal. In those days, whatever training he did have, they trained PLF's to a great degree, so he would be prepared for that. On 8/9/2025 at 8:12 AM, FLYJACK said: no steer Again, many reserves were steerable. My first reserve ride, the canopy was manufactured in 1956 and it was steerable. And I don't think he would have known whether it was or not before he got under it. On 8/9/2025 at 8:12 AM, FLYJACK said: higher chance of injury Maybe. Not necessarily. Does Andrade's research include rate of injury? On 8/9/2025 at 8:12 AM, FLYJACK said: a huge landing zone So? As long as the terrain was decent, which might have been somewhat under his control. ----------------- I don't know what else to say about all this. You can believe me or not. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Kamkisky 30 #65962 August 11 (edited) 1 hour ago, dudeman17 said: This may be a bit of an exaggeration, but you seem to think that Cooper likely had no clue whatsoever about bailout rigs. What I meant by that statement is that I disagree. Most whuffos running around do understand that there are parachutes, and different ones for different purposes. I would bet that if you put an intentional freefall rig and a bailout rig in front of them, many people with no more than a layman's understanding would be able to guess which one is which. Cooper had at least some experience, and wherever he got that he would most likely have encountered bailout rigs as well. His pilots and/or other crewmen would likely have had them. I think it would have been readily apparent to him what they were. You also seem to think that his experience was most likely military. Maybe so, but most military jumping of that era was static line paratroopers. If that was Cooper, I would expect him to address that in his request. I would expect him to want a freefall rig, but who knows, maybe he thought he'd attach the static line to the stairs or something. Did he know when they gave him the rigs that it would be an hour and a half before they took off? Or was that due to the fueling issues? Further adding to his time urgency issues? Again, mains in those days did not have a whole lot more flight performance than reserves. But ultimately, you would likely get different answers from different jumpers. Most jumpers I've known, I don't think they'd commit a hijacking (or rob a bank) in the first place. A bailout rig is a reserve, all but assuredly you get an open canopy. Ok, so what? Only because it's a smaller canopy. At Cooper's weight, not that big of a deal. In those days, whatever training he did have, they trained PLF's to a great degree, so he would be prepared for that. Again, many reserves were steerable. My first reserve ride, the canopy was manufactured in 1956 and it was steerable. And I don't think he would have known whether it was or not before he got under it. Maybe. Not necessarily. Does Andrade's research include rate of injury? So? As long as the terrain was decent, which might have been somewhat under his control. ----------------- I don't know what else to say about all this. You can believe me or not. I have no skydiving experience at all and am hoping you can provide some expertise since clearly you have a lot of experience. Given Cooper's size and the parachute type what amount of weight could he have had strapped to himself before it became to problematic? I'm specifically think of a configuration where he has the briefcase strapped to his stomach/lower chest and the money bag strapped to the briefcase....like a belly bag/big beer belly. Edited August 11 by Kamkisky Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
FLYJACK 785 #65963 August 11 (edited) 7 hours ago, dudeman17 said: This may be a bit of an exaggeration, but you seem to think that Cooper likely had no clue whatsoever about bailout rigs. What I meant by that statement is that I disagree. Most whuffos running around do understand that there are parachutes, and different ones for different purposes. I would bet that if you put an intentional freefall rig and a bailout rig in front of them, many people with no more than a layman's understanding would be able to guess which one is which. Cooper had at least some experience, and wherever he got that he would most likely have encountered bailout rigs as well. His pilots and/or other crewmen would likely have had them. I think it would have been readily apparent to him what they were. You also seem to think that his experience was most likely military. Maybe so, but most military jumping of that era was static line paratroopers. If that was Cooper, I would expect him to address that in his request. I would expect him to want a freefall rig, but who knows, maybe he thought he'd attach the static line to the stairs or something. Did he know when they gave him the rigs that it would be an hour and a half before they took off? Or was that due to the fueling issues? Further adding to his time urgency issues? Again, mains in those days did not have a whole lot more flight performance than reserves. But ultimately, you would likely get different answers from different jumpers. Most jumpers I've known, I don't think they'd commit a hijacking (or rob a bank) in the first place. A bailout rig is a reserve, all but assuredly you get an open canopy. Ok, so what? Only because it's a smaller canopy. At Cooper's weight, not that big of a deal. In those days, whatever training he did have, they trained PLF's to a great degree, so he would be prepared for that. Again, many reserves were steerable. My first reserve ride, the canopy was manufactured in 1956 and it was steerable. And I don't think he would have known whether it was or not before he got under it. Maybe. Not necessarily. Does Andrade's research include rate of injury? So? As long as the terrain was decent, which might have been somewhat under his control. ----------------- I don't know what else to say about all this. You can believe me or not. It isn't that I don't believe you per se,, you have an opinion that is based on assumptions.. some false. Bailout rigs were not steerable, Cooper's were not steerable,, Did you ever jump with a pilot bailout rig.. Pilot bailout rigs open harder and land harder increasing risk of injury. Whuffo's don't understand the difference between a bailout rig and a main.. Ryan didn't and inexperienced Cooper sleuths don't.. Cooper was most likely military and not a sport jumper. Cooper could have rejected the bailout rigs and demanded the mains/reserves he requested. and you still did not answer my question,,, you say the same thing over and over,, you wouldn't commit a hijacking etc..... that isn't the question. I am trying to determine the psychological delta.... jumping with a pilot bailout rig vs main/front reserve. Even Hayden said he would never use them, they were just to meet regulations.. Edited August 11 by FLYJACK Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
olemisscub 582 #65964 August 11 2 hours ago, FLYJACK said: Whuffo's don't understand the difference between a bailout rig and a main.. Ryan didn't and inexperienced Cooper sleuths don't.. Of course I know the difference between a bailout rig and a "main" recreational backpack from that era like a Para Commander. My concern and confusion is that I don't know what you're referring to when you were discussing military "mains". You've still not provided an example of what a "main" would be to your average mid-century military man aside from a paratrooper's backpack. Even the highly specialized parachutists doing early HALO jumps were jumping with B4 Air Force bailout backpacks, the only real difference being that they had harnesses equipped with D-rings. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
FLYJACK 785 #65965 August 11 (edited) 40 minutes ago, olemisscub said: Of course I know the difference between a bailout rig and a "main" recreational backpack from that era like a Para Commander. My concern and confusion is that I don't know what you're referring to when you were discussing military "mains". You've still not provided an example of what a "main" would be to your average mid-century military man aside from a paratrooper's backpack. Even the highly specialized parachutists doing early HALO jumps were jumping with B4 Air Force bailout backpacks, the only real difference being that they had harnesses equipped with D-rings. No, you didn't know the difference.. neither did I until I researched it. Cooper didn't ask for old WW2 bailout rigs.. You still don't understand the difference. It isn't just D rings.. Gryder's rig is a main.. Hahneman got a military parachute consisting of a back main and front reserve AND jumped wearing both.. Edited August 11 by FLYJACK Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
dudeman17 376 #65966 August 11 4 hours ago, FLYJACK said: It isn't that I don't believe you per se,, you have an opinion that is based on assumptions.. some false. What assumptions do I have that are false? 4 hours ago, FLYJACK said: you say the same thing over and over So do you. Everybody on this case has been saying the same things over and over for over a half a century. 4 hours ago, FLYJACK said: Bailout rigs were not steerable, Cooper's were not steerable "Bailout rig" per se refers to the container. Bailout rigs use the same reserve type canopies that were in reserve containers, both sport and military. Some of those canopies were steerable, some not. A bailout rig might well contain a steerable reserve. The ones Cooper got happened to have non steerable ones, okay, but I don't think Cooper could have known which he had until he got under it. 4 hours ago, FLYJACK said: Did you ever jump with a pilot bailout rig I would have no reason to. Indeed I have taken my sport rig or a base rig with me when flying with people. But I have used a few round reserves, the same type that may well have been in a bailout rig. 4 hours ago, FLYJACK said: Pilot bailout rigs open harder Reserve canopies, which bailout rigs use, are designed to open quickly because you might be low. That won't hurt you. 4 hours ago, FLYJACK said: and land harder Because they are smaller canopies, so that they will pack smaller. They are not designed to hurt you. 4 hours ago, FLYJACK said: Whuffo's don't understand the difference between a bailout rig and a main I think many whuffos would understand them better than you do. 4 hours ago, FLYJACK said: Cooper sleuths don't. Clearly, and it's starting to seem by insistence. 4 hours ago, FLYJACK said: Cooper was most likely military and not a sport jumper. Why do you think that? 4 hours ago, FLYJACK said: Cooper could have rejected the bailout rigs and demanded the mains/reserves he requested. Again, I don't think he wanted to waste more time. Did he know it was going to take an hour and a half to get going? Wasn't he already complaining about time? Didn't he want to 'get the show on the road'? 4 hours ago, FLYJACK said: and you still did not answer my question But I did. I think you would get different answers from different jumpers. More conservative ones wouldn't. Ballsier ones would. Was Cooper ballsy? Considering that he was hijacking a jetliner and robbing a bank, I'm guessing he was. 4 hours ago, FLYJACK said: I am trying to determine the psychological delta.... jumping with a pilot bailout rig I think Cooper knew [bailout] rigs better than you do. I think he felt competent enough to deal with it. By the way it seemingly turned out, apparently he was right. 4 hours ago, FLYJACK said: Even Hayden said he would never use them, they were just to meet regulations. Hayden was a pilot. Pilots are weird people. Everybody in a boat is required to have a life preserver. Most pilots want nothing to do with parachutes. Maybe it's just me, but I'm guessing most people can swim better on their own than they could land. I've got this comical vision in my head of a pilot in freefall strapped to a seat, with a broken stick in their hand swearing he can land it, before he would jump. I'm sorry, I don't mean to sound snide, I just don't know how more simply I could put it. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
dudeman17 376 #65967 August 11 2 hours ago, olemisscub said: a "main" recreational backpack from that era like a Para Commander. A Para Commander is a type of main canopy, that would go into any main container that it would fit in. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
FLYJACK 785 #65968 August 11 (edited) 20 minutes ago, dudeman17 said: What assumptions do I have that are false? So do you. Everybody on this case has been saying the same things over and over for over a half a century. "Bailout rig" per se refers to the container. Bailout rigs use the same reserve type canopies that were in reserve containers, both sport and military. Some of those canopies were steerable, some not. A bailout rig might well contain a steerable reserve. The ones Cooper got happened to have non steerable ones, okay, but I don't think Cooper could have known which he had until he got under it. I would have no reason to. Indeed I have taken my sport rig or a base rig with me when flying with people. But I have used a few round reserves, the same type that may well have been in a bailout rig. Reserve canopies, which bailout rigs use, are designed to open quickly because you might be low. That won't hurt you. Because they are smaller canopies, so that they will pack smaller. They are not designed to hurt you. I think many whuffos would understand them better than you do. Clearly, and it's starting to seem by insistence. Why do you think that? Again, I don't think he wanted to waste more time. Did he know it was going to take an hour and a half to get going? Wasn't he already complaining about time? Didn't he want to 'get the show on the road'? But I did. I think you would get different answers from different jumpers. More conservative ones wouldn't. Ballsier ones would. Was Cooper ballsy? Considering that he was hijacking a jetliner and robbing a bank, I'm guessing he was. I think Cooper knew [bailout] rigs better than you do. I think he felt competent enough to deal with it. By the way it seemingly turned out, apparently he was right. Hayden was a pilot. Pilots are weird people. Everybody in a boat is required to have a life preserver. Most pilots want nothing to do with parachutes. Maybe it's just me, but I'm guessing most people can swim better on their own than they could land. I've got this comical vision in my head of a pilot in freefall strapped to a seat, with a broken stick in their hand swearing he can land it, before he would jump. I'm sorry, I don't mean to sound snide, I just don't know how more simply I could put it. We are done.. you are being insincere and spouting nonsense. You are misrepresenting what I have said,,, Edited August 11 by FLYJACK Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
dudeman17 376 #65969 August 11 11 hours ago, Kamkisky said: Given Cooper's size and the parachute type what amount of weight could he have had strapped to himself before it became to problematic? I'm specifically think of a configuration where he has the briefcase strapped to his stomach/lower chest and the money bag strapped to the briefcase....like a belly bag/big beer belly. I don't think anything he had, even the money, would weigh enough to be an issue. Of more concern would be how it is tied to him and how that might affect his exit and freefall aerodynamics. It would want to be centered, securely and tightly tied so as not to move around, and reasonably symmetrical. It would certainly help if he had freefall experience, but regardless of his stability, if he pulls he most likely gets open. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
dudeman17 376 #65970 August 11 1 minute ago, FLYJACK said: you are being insincere and spouting nonsense. Balderdash. Not one word of what I wrote fits that description. I have had nothing but respect for you. You are clearly a dedicated and detailed researcher. But lately you seem to be stubborn and suffering from oppositional disorder. Anything anyone says that you don't agree with is either nonsense or a lie. I call bullshit. 11 minutes ago, FLYJACK said: We are done That's your call. But I've asked a couple questions that you haven't answered. And I'd still like to know whose that other guitar was. 1 Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
dudeman17 376 #65971 August 11 19 minutes ago, FLYJACK said: You are misrepresenting what I have said,,, Absolutely not. I am responding to it accurately and appropriately. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
olemisscub 582 #65972 August 11 2 hours ago, FLYJACK said: No, you didn't know the difference.. neither did I until I researched it. Cooper didn't ask for old WW2 bailout rigs.. You still don't understand the difference. It isn't just D rings.. Gryder's rig is a main.. Hahneman got a military parachute consisting of a back main and front reserve AND jumped wearing both.. Yes, Gryder's rig is a SPORTERIZED Air Force BAILOUT rig. I literally own one just like it. Came in handy when I had to do my videos showing the difference between Air Force and Navy backpacks. To the best of my knowledge, and you've been unable to prove me wrong with visual evidence, there were NO factory supplied non-modified military "mains" that had D-rings from that era that weren't paratrooper packs. Any freefall rigs used by the military that had D-rings and Capewells were just modified BAILOUT backpacks. So when you're saying that Hahneman got a "military parachute", that's just a description of what Gryder "found" or what I have. It's a description of what Mark made his first 100 or so jumps with: a SPORTERIZED military bailout backpack. You keep talking about military mains, but I've never seen you supply any evidence of what you're talking about. I'm glad to be proven wrong on this. So please show me a non-sporterized factory delivered military "main" i.e. a military freefall backpack that came factory delivered differently than a bailout rig. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
dudeman17 376 #65973 August 11 4 minutes ago, olemisscub said: "GEAR" Go on Facebook to the 'old school skydivers' page. You might be able to find an old rigger there who could detail containers of that era for you. Or call Skydive Kapowsin and ask for Geoff Farrington. He owns the place and is such a rigger. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
olemisscub 582 #65974 August 11 9 minutes ago, dudeman17 said: Go on Facebook to the 'old school skydivers' page. You might be able to find an old rigger there who could detail containers of that era for you. Or call Skydive Kapowsin and ask for Geoff Farrington. He owns the place and is such a rigger. Yes I don't actually know what my Air Force pack is called. I have two NB-6's. Those are neatly labeled on the packs. When I'm back at my office I'll have to check and see what the AF backpack says but I don't think it actually has a name listed on it. Meltzer believes they were called B-4's, but googling that doesn't check out. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
FLYJACK 785 #65975 August 11 1 hour ago, olemisscub said: Yes, Gryder's rig is a SPORTERIZED Air Force BAILOUT rig. I literally own one just like it. Came in handy when I had to do my videos showing the difference between Air Force and Navy backpacks. To the best of my knowledge, and you've been unable to prove me wrong with visual evidence, there were NO factory supplied non-modified military "mains" that had D-rings from that era that weren't paratrooper packs. Any freefall rigs used by the military that had D-rings and Capewells were just modified BAILOUT backpacks. So when you're saying that Hahneman got a "military parachute", that's just a description of what Gryder "found" or what I have. It's a description of what Mark made his first 100 or so jumps with: a SPORTERIZED military bailout backpack. You keep talking about military mains, but I've never seen you supply any evidence of what you're talking about. I'm glad to be proven wrong on this. So please show me a non-sporterized factory delivered military "main" i.e. a military freefall backpack that came factory delivered differently than a bailout rig. Both of you have completely lost the plot... The military started doing ripcord freefalls in the late 50's.. they initially modified equipment but through the 60's manufacturers started making freefall equipment.. The special ops HALO stuff was not the only freefall stuff in the military.. Maybe officially in combat, but they were doing it. You can even modify static line to ripcord,, I don't know what specific gear they used late 60's early 70's.. but it is completely irrelevant.. a red herring.. The fact is there was main/front reserve military gear available.. Cooper received bailout rigs in "error".. At that time bailout rigs were constructed differently, they were more robust than mains,, non steerable, opened harder, landed harder and had a higher risk of injury.. I have read the regulations for bailout rigs and it is not constructed the same as a main.. IT IS NOT JUST D-RINGS.. Cooper DID NOT ask for or expect to receive 30 year old pilot bailout rigs... whatever model or brand is irrelevant. So, we have two options.. Cooper recognized them as old bailout rigs and jumped anyway.. NOT rejecting them and demanding mains/front reserves. or Cooper didn't recognize them as bailout rigs and jumped. So, I asked which would a jumper choose.. a 30 year old pilot bailout rig or a main/reserve.. What is the delta for that decision.. Dudeman17 refused to answer after at least three attempts to ask and chose to twist assumptions to fit his personal opinion. All the jumpers over the years have claimed they could do that jump, no problem... NOT ONE has said they would do it with a pilot bailout rig in those conditions.. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites