DB Cooper

[monk71 6]

10 hours ago, georger said:

Idea: is “negotiable American currency” like "get the show on the road" - a Chicago thing ?

IF THE STEW COPIED EXACTLY WHAT HE SAID . . .

Hmm... and what suspect lived in Chicago most of his life?

[monk71 6]

15 hours ago, olemisscub said:

Jeez, aside from Cooper articles, that phrase appears a grand total of ONE time on its own on Newspapers. Some dude in 1927. 

I like Georger's idea. Maybe regional ethnolinguistics can shed light on this phrase.

[monk71 6]

Is there another searchable source similar to Newspapers.com? These Reddit pages reference three more articles prior to 1971 with the phrase "negotiable American currency". Maybe the hyphenization of Amer-ican is an issue. ?

 

 

Edited August 4 by monk71

[olemisscub 582]

4 hours ago, monk71 said:

Is there another searchable source similar to Newspapers.com? These Reddit pages reference three more articles prior to 1971 with the phrase "negotiable American currency". Maybe the hyphenization of Amer-ican is an issue. ?

Looks like I missed a few. Regardless, it's not remotely a common phrase, so either someone brain farted during the game of telephone or Cooper was just trying to sound smart by using big words. 

It almost reminds me of one of the aliens in Men In Black when they are inhabiting human bodies and trying to speak like what they think earthlings sound like. 

"Greetings friend, I would like to withdraw negotiable American currency from my bank account."

Edited August 4 by olemisscub

[lxchilton 10]

2 hours ago, olemisscub said:

Looks like I missed a few. Regardless, it's not remotely a common phrase, so either someone brain farted during the game of telephone or Cooper was just trying to sound smart by using big words. 

It almost reminds me of one of the aliens in Men In Black when they are inhabiting human bodies and trying to speak like what they think earthlings sound like. 

"Greetings friend, I would like to withdraw negotiable American currency from my bank account."

I made that post a while back on Reddit...my take on the "negotiable American currency" thing is that Cooper at some point was stationed overseas during WWII. The vast majority of the available mentions of it on Newspapers.com are in the 15ish years from near the end of the war up until 1960ish; it's more likely to me that he said it and served in WWII or that the person who put those words in his mouth served in WWII.

I bristle at the suggestion that it definitely points to a point of origin in the States for Cooper or that it means he was somehow not American as it's something that people were saying in sort of banal (in reference to the cost of a baseball game in the 1950s, etc.) way in specifically American sources somewhat regularly.

[olemisscub 582]

1 hour ago, lxchilton said:

I made that post a while back on Reddit...my take on the "negotiable American currency" thing is that Cooper at some point was stationed overseas during WWII. The vast majority of the available mentions of it on Newspapers.com are in the 15ish years from near the end of the war up until 1960ish; it's more likely to me that he said it and served in WWII or that the person who put those words in his mouth served in WWII.

I bristle at the suggestion that it definitely points to a point of origin in the States for Cooper or that it means he was somehow not American as it's something that people were saying in sort of banal (in reference to the cost of a baseball game in the 1950s, etc.) way in specifically American sources somewhat regularly.

There are so few sources that I can’t imagine it falls into the “somewhat regularly” category. 

Most of the entires on Newspapers are reprints of the same article from 1945 and 1927. So it’s really one article from 27, one from 45, and another from 1958. Three appearances in the history of scanned newspapers can’t be a somewhat regularly used phrase. 
 

Even “circulated u.s. currency” only shows up in about a dozen unique articles. 

So that’s weird itself. 

[FLYJACK 785]

1 hour ago, lxchilton said:

I made that post a while back on Reddit...my take on the "negotiable American currency" thing is that Cooper at some point was stationed overseas during WWII. The vast majority of the available mentions of it on Newspapers.com are in the 15ish years from near the end of the war up until 1960ish; it's more likely to me that he said it and served in WWII or that the person who put those words in his mouth served in WWII.

I bristle at the suggestion that it definitely points to a point of origin in the States for Cooper or that it means he was somehow not American as it's something that people were saying in sort of banal (in reference to the cost of a baseball game in the 1950s, etc.) way in specifically American sources somewhat regularly.

There are two things here that continue to get conflated...

The American/US currency.. from Crew and later Tina.

and negotiable/circulated currency.

 

American/US suggests Cooper spent time outside the US..

but negotiable and circulated are not the same thing.. and have nothing to with being outside the US..

Circulated means used bills... negotiable makes no sense in this context, it is most likely a young Tina conflating the terms.

In some of those newspaper articles "negotiable" is used in a different context..

So, yes US/American suggests Cooper spent time outside the US.. could be WW2 or Vietnam..

and negotiable means nothing.

[CooperNWO305 161]

Anyone own The Skies Belong To Us? About the hijackers of the period. Did the author list the professions for them? How about the copycat’s professions? McCoy was a teacher, LaPointe a beach bum, Mac was kind of hanging around, Heady? Hahneman had a lot of jobs. Any indication of what professions these men were likely to be in? 

[lxchilton 10]

54 minutes ago, olemisscub said:

There are so few sources that I can’t imagine it falls into the “somewhat regularly” category. 

Most of the entires on Newspapers are reprints of the same article from 1945 and 1927. So it’s really one article from 27, one from 45, and another from 1958. Three appearances in the history of scanned newspapers can’t be a somewhat regularly used phrase. 
 

Even “circulated u.s. currency” only shows up in about a dozen unique articles. 

So that’s weird itself. 

Weird as hell, though the fact that it shows up almost exclusively in the post WWII and pre-Vietnam era suggests that Cooper absolutely had to have picked it up overseas during WWII. Which is the opposite of a shocker since I would be completely floored if he hadn't served at that time. 

I think there would have been a good sized chunk of the male population who would have read the 1958 baseball article and immediately recognized the phrase for what it was and not been puzzled by it; in that way it's "regular."

[lxchilton 10]

54 minutes ago, FLYJACK said:

There are two things here that continue to get conflated...

The American/US currency.. from Crew and later Tina.

and negotiable/circulated currency.

 

American/US suggests Cooper spent time outside the US..

but negotiable and circulated are not the same thing.. and have nothing to with being outside the US..

Circulated means used bills... negotiable makes no sense in this context, it is most likely a young Tina conflating the terms.

In some of those newspaper articles "negotiable" is used in a different context..

So, yes US/American suggests Cooper spent time outside the US.. could be WW2 or Vietnam..

and negotiable means nothing.

I'd agree that if Cooper said it it was more a weird turn of phrase on his end rather than meaning anything other than "circulated" US dollars. 

[olemisscub 582]

8 hours ago, CooperNWO305 said:

Anyone own The Skies Belong To Us? About the hijackers of the period. Did the author list the professions for them? How about the copycat’s professions? McCoy was a teacher, LaPointe a beach bum, Mac was kind of hanging around, Heady? Hahneman had a lot of jobs. Any indication of what professions these men were likely to be in? 

Most all of them were unemployed layabouts.

Heady had only been back from Vietnam for about 2 weeks. He was still shell shocked and did it on a PTSD bender on a whim.

Mac was unemployed as well. Already a felon his work prospects weren’t great.

McCoy wasn’t a teacher btw. He was a full time student with a tiny GI Bill stipend. His wife was the breadwinner. You’re thinking of McCoy being a Sunday school teacher.

LaPoint was a layabout 

H was an electrician by trade. 

Fisher was a house painter when he wasn’t committing frauds

Francis Goodell was active military. Helicopter crew in Vietnam. Had recently returned from a tour there and was AWOL from Fort Riley. 

Everett Holt was a part-time student at Indiana University and part-time postal worker.

Stanley Speck was a cab driver

Frank Sibley was a former airline pilot and MAY have flown with Air America (still trying to confirm that)

Billy Hurst was a real life Pvt Pyle and was drummed out of the Marine Corps for being too fat. Unemployed at the time.

Merlyn St. George was unemployed, but had been an insurance salesman

Roger Holder and Cathy Kerkow were both selling weed for income

Michael Green worked in a parking garage 

Edited August 5 by olemisscub

[georger 271]

15 hours ago, lxchilton said:

I'd agree that if Cooper said it it was more a weird turn of phrase on his end rather than meaning anything other than "circulated" US dollars. 

Puzzling about this is useless. Flo is the source. Its her notes. Since nobody bothered to ask her if these were her words or the hyjackers, its useless white noise. Might as well be: 'shamalek hydrogen'. Get the show on the road is a different matter - commonly used phrase even today with origin in the Chicago area circus culture, known linguistic origin. My guess is this is a "Floism". Ask Flo's psychiatrist what it means!      

Edited August 5 by georger

[CooperNWO305 161]

14 hours ago, olemisscub said:

Most all of them were unemployed layabouts.

Heady had only been back from Vietnam for about 2 weeks. He was still shell shocked and did it on a PTSD bender on a whim.

Mac was unemployed as well. Already a felon his work prospects weren’t great.

McCoy wasn’t a teacher btw. He was a full time student with a tiny GI Bill stipend. His wife was the breadwinner. You’re thinking of McCoy being a Sunday school teacher.

LaPoint was a layabout 

H was an electrician by trade. 

Fisher was a house painter when he wasn’t committing frauds

Francis Goodell was active military. Helicopter crew in Vietnam. Had recently returned from a tour there and was AWOL from Fort Riley. 

Everett Holt was a part-time student at Indiana University and part-time postal worker.

Stanley Speck was a cab driver

Frank Sibley was a former airline pilot and MAY have flown with Air America (still trying to confirm that)

Billy Hurst was a real life Pvt Pyle and was drummed out of the Marine Corps for being too fat. Unemployed at the time.

Merlyn St. George was unemployed, but had been an insurance salesman

Roger Holder and Cathy Kerkow were both selling weed for income

Michael Green worked in a parking garage 

Good info. 

[FLYJACK 785]

Using "US" or "American" currency doesn't make Cooper Canadian. it only suggests he was previously outside the US. It isn't a citizenship clue, it is a location clue. Could be as simple as a Vietnam vet.

Did Ryan claim the stair light came on when the stairs open??

That is not true,, the stair light comes on when the lever is moved from the up/lock detent not when the stairs move. It is a safety feature.. Do not take off/fly with the light on as the airstairs are not locked up. They go out when the lever is placed into the up/lock position.

 

[olemisscub 582]

4 hours ago, FLYJACK said:

Using "US" or "American" currency doesn't make Cooper Canadian. it only suggests he was previously outside the US. It isn't a citizenship clue, it is a location clue. Could be as simple as a Vietnam vet.

Did Ryan claim the stair light came on when the stairs open??

That is not true,, the stair light comes on when the lever is moved from the up/lock detent not when the stairs move. It is a safety feature.. Do not take off/fly with the light on as the airstairs are not locked up. They go out when the lever is placed into the up/lock position.

 

I believe you’re right. I was speaking to a 727 mechanic about it and I misunderstood what he was saying. I believed him to be saying that the sensor which triggered that indicator was on the actual stairs itself, meaning that if the stairs were unlocked and began to move (not down) it would light up. But it’s indeed connected to the lever. He believes the lever would probably need to be moved about 50% to trigger that it has been unlocked.

[FLYJACK 785]

3 hours ago, olemisscub said:

I believe you’re right. I was speaking to a 727 mechanic about it and I misunderstood what he was saying. I believed him to be saying that the sensor which triggered that indicator was on the actual stairs itself, meaning that if the stairs were unlocked and began to move (not down) it would light up. But it’s indeed connected to the lever. He believes the lever would probably need to be moved about 50% to trigger that it has been unlocked.

The lever only need to be moved from the detent,,, it is a safety thing.. 

The green light comes on when the stairs are fully down..

[Kamkisky 30]

I'm still missing the mystery of the indicator light. Cooper thought the stairs would fully deploy. The stairs did not. He then proceeds to mess with the lever some more and call the cockpit. Eventually he figures out the stairs are in a position that is viable for his escape and everything is good. The stairs never get to the fully locked down position because of the force of air pressure. It seems straight forward to me.

It's also a good thing the stairs never locked or the landing in Reno would have been a whole different thing since the aft stairs in the locked down position are designed to be a support for the heavy tail of a 727. 

Edited August 6 by Kamkisky

[olemisscub 582]

On 8/5/2025 at 7:21 PM, FLYJACK said:

The lever only need to be moved from the detent,,, it is a safety thing.. 

The green light comes on when the stairs are fully down..

Tried to seek clarification from the guy who spent his career working on 727’s. It sounds like the alarm trigger is not tied to the lever but to the locking mechanism, but it really doesn’t make a difference what it’s really technically tied to though because it’s all pretty much simultaneous, so it may as well be the lever.  This is what he wrote:

“Moving the handle is not the reason the light comes on.

When the stairs are up and you move the handle to the “Open” position, it causes the 2 stair locks to “snap” the locks to the open position thus allowing the stairs to begin lowering.

If the stairs were closed and you move the handle open/closed etc. it would only snap unlocked in that configuration.

The light comes on simultaneously to the initial movement of the handle because the unlocking mechanism is commanding the door to initiate opening.”
 

 

Edited August 7 by olemisscub

[FLYJACK 785]

The 727 100 system is technically different from the 200.. but effectively the same regarding the light....

 

Edited August 7 by FLYJACK

[dudeman17 376]

On 8/2/2025 at 7:44 AM, FLYJACK said:

If you demand absolutes you get nowhere

 

Unlike the rest of you, I am not trying to solve this case. I do like absolutes though, they separate speculation from reasonable assumptions.

 

On 8/2/2025 at 7:44 AM, FLYJACK said:

The evidence indicates what is most likely,, you can always claim it isn't proven or there is some possible exception.

 

The evidence indicates..

Cooper had military and some parachute experience,, 

Asking for 2 parachutes, backs and fronts means he was neither asking for nor expecting bailout rigs. 

Checking for cards does not mean he knew they were bailout rigs.

He complained about the lack of D rings.. in his possession he still did not know they were bailout rigs. If he knew they were bailout rigs why didn't he reject them and ask for mains.. most likely he did not know.

 

I have to disagree with your conclusion. I think you're putting too much importance on the cards.* The biggest indicator is the D-rings or lack thereof. The D-rings are installed in the harness at manufacturing. It's not like someone would 'forget to include them'. If Cooper has any experience and knows gear at all, he most likely knows the difference between mains and emergency (bailout) rigs. He knows enough to ask for fronts and backs, and he knows how to put them on. And when he gets them he's not scratching his head trying to figure out how they attach, he knows that there are no D-rings. So he most likely knows that he does not have mains. Therefore they must be bailouts. There really isn't a third option.

I think he doesn't ask for more for the same reason he doesn't ask for a proper backpack. He doesn't want to waste any more time. He's going to make do with what he has and "get the show on the road".

 

*Packing cards - They are on reserves and bailout rigs for reasons previously described. The reason the military puts them on mains is so they can tell which loft and what packer handled them. If there is an issue in the field, they can backtrack where they came from. If a loft needs to issue a service bulletin or airworthiness directive, the people in the field can determine whether they have affected gear.

[FLYJACK 785]

6 hours ago, dudeman17 said:

 

Unlike the rest of you, I am not trying to solve this case. I do like absolutes though, they separate speculation from reasonable assumptions.

 

 

I have to disagree with your conclusion. I think you're putting too much importance on the cards.* The biggest indicator is the D-rings or lack thereof. The D-rings are installed in the harness at manufacturing. It's not like someone would 'forget to include them'. If Cooper has any experience and knows gear at all, he most likely knows the difference between mains and emergency (bailout) rigs. He knows enough to ask for fronts and backs, and he knows how to put them on. And when he gets them he's not scratching his head trying to figure out how they attach, he knows that there are no D-rings. So he most likely knows that he does not have mains. Therefore they must be bailouts. There really isn't a third option.

I think he doesn't ask for more for the same reason he doesn't ask for a proper backpack. He doesn't want to waste any more time. He's going to make do with what he has and "get the show on the road".

 

*Packing cards - They are on reserves and bailout rigs for reasons previously described. The reason the military puts them on mains is so they can tell which loft and what packer handled them. If there is an issue in the field, they can backtrack where they came from. If a loft needs to issue a service bulletin or airworthiness directive, the people in the field can determine whether they have affected gear.

Disagree,, you claim "most likely knows"...

If Cooper had only some/little military experience he wouldn't necessarily know they were bailout rigs based solely on the missing D rings..

I found that some military bailout harnesses had D rings.. in WW2 an aircrew would wear a harness and attach a bailout rig in emergencies.. some used a front and some a back..

Further, evidence indicates he had some parachute experience,, and it indicates he was not a sport jumper but had military experience.

Which begs the question..

If Cooper knew it was  a bailout rig would he jump with it or request a main..

These jumpers keep saying it was an easy jump, but would they do it in a bailout rig??

 

On balance, I don't think he knew he was jumping with a  bailout rig..

If he did know that says something about him.

Edited August 8 by FLYJACK

[lxchilton 10]

6 hours ago, dudeman17 said:

I think he doesn't ask for more for the same reason he doesn't ask for a proper backpack. He doesn't want to waste any more time. He's going to make do with what he has and "get the show on the road".

This is probably the most important point regarding everything that happens post landing in Seattle; Cooper already feels like it's taken longer than it should have to get on the ground again and then it takes forever to get the fuel on board. Each new stage of the hijacking (getting the money, chutes, etc.) has to be fast tracked and trying to use his actions at this point to identify who he was or what level of experience he had is going to be somewhat flawed.

His ability to keep moving under those circumstances is good evidence that he a) felt comfortable when it came to parachuting and b) had his wits about him to not freak out and keep moving forward with the plan, adapting to try and keep to a basic schedule as best he could. 

Cooper knew parachutes enough to deal with what he got.

[FLYJACK 785]

5 minutes ago, lxchilton said:

This is probably the most important point regarding everything that happens post landing in Seattle; Cooper already feels like it's taken longer than it should have to get on the ground again and then it takes forever to get the fuel on board. Each new stage of the hijacking (getting the money, chutes, etc.) has to be fast tracked and trying to use his actions at this point to identify who he was or what level of experience he had is going to be somewhat flawed.

His ability to keep moving under those circumstances is good evidence that he a) felt comfortable when it came to parachuting and b) had his wits about him to not freak out and keep moving forward with the plan, adapting to try and keep to a basic schedule as best he could. 

Cooper knew parachutes enough to deal with what he got.

or he didn't realize they were bailout rigs,, he didn't ask for or expect bailout rigs.

[lxchilton 10]

1 hour ago, FLYJACK said:

or he didn't realize they were bailout rigs,, he didn't ask for or expect bailout rigs.

That's the flip side of the coin--he was either prepared to deal with any kind of chute he got or completely ignorant of them. His actions suggest that he was capable though so I tend to think he wasn't put off beyond the situation regarding the knapsack and the lack of d rings.

[olemisscub 582]

2 hours ago, FLYJACK said:

or he didn't realize they were bailout rigs,, he didn't ask for or expect bailout rigs.

He seemed totally indifferent to what parachutes he was going to be given, otherwise he’d have been more specific beyond just describing in broad terms what he wanted when he said fronts and backs. 

I’ve used the analogy many times and I’ll stick with it. Cooper essentially asked for a truck and a trailer. He could have specified a Ford F-150 or a Chevy Silverado, but he didn’t. “Truck and a trailer” is as generic as “front and back”. You’re simply describing in the most general terms what you want. 

So they delivered Cooper a truck and a trailer but the truck had no trailer hitch. He bitches briefly about the lack of a trailer hitch but never bitched about the generic truck they gave him. 

As Chilton just said, this indicates that he didn’t care what type of truck they gave him or didn’t know trucks well enough to specify in the first place.