DB Cooper

[FLYJACK 785]

9 hours ago, dudeman17 said:

 

What is the timeline on this? When (what year) was Gunther contacted by 'Cooper'? According to Clara, when did Cooper die?

Have you read the book?

Gunther was initially contacted by somebody claiming to be Cooper in February 1972. 

He suddenly disappeared a few months later. 

10 years later Gunther is contacted by a woman "Clara"...

She claimed Cooper died early 1982..

Gunther wrote a letter to the FBI in 1982 about a contact "Clara" and asked if they were interested..

 

Edited August 1 by FLYJACK

[Robert99 64]

10 hours ago, olemisscub said:

good info. Then I wonder why they decided to level off at 7000 once he called to the cockpit. Maybe to give him more stable footing or something?

They were probably already in the neighborhood of 7000 feet when they decided to level off.  There is nothing magic about the altitude here.

They may have wanted to slow down a bit or whatever.  But it was probably mainly just to show Cooper that they were trying to help him with the stairs.

Edited August 1 by Robert99

[CooperNWO305 161]

10 hours ago, olemisscub said:

Max or someone associated with his book efforts. It would be a crime to pull a hoax on the FBI, but to send something that isn’t true to a retired FBI agent is another story.

Sending a letter to Himmelsbach that you ALSO conveniently happen to publish in your book is likely another example of doing things to establish faux-credibility, same as finding something from 10 years ago and using it to your advantage. 

C’mon, there’s a lot of kabuki theater going on with Gunther. A metric ton of it. 

 

Or Ralph sent a copy to Max or Clara sent a copy. 

[olemisscub 582]

10 minutes ago, CooperNWO305 said:

Or Ralph sent a copy to Max or Clara sent a copy. 

 

If I was arguing your side of it, I guess the most realistic argument would be that the Himmelsbach letter says "cc: Max Gunther" at the bottom, and since this was the era of actual carbon copies, so presumably that is how he received it. 

[olemisscub 582]

21 minutes ago, Robert99 said:

They were probably already in the neighborhood of 7000 feet when they decided to level off.  There is nothing magic about the altitude here.

They may have wanted to slow down a bit or whatever.  But it was probably mainly just to show Cooper that they were trying to help him with the stairs.

Well they definitely slowed down when they leveled off because they lowered the flaps to 30 and went down to 160KIAS. When Cooper actually jumped they had increased a smidge to 170KIAS.

[FLYJACK 785]

20 minutes ago, olemisscub said:

Well they definitely slowed down when they leveled off because they lowered the flaps to 30 and went down to 160KIAS. When Cooper actually jumped they had increased a smidge to 170KIAS.

Wasn't that slowdown due to Cooper's problem with the stairs..

[olemisscub 582]

2 hours ago, FLYJACK said:

 

It is highly probable that he was contacted by somebody claiming to be Cooper..

He mentioned others who were also contacted. That supports a real contact.

 

I think it is almost a certainty that he WAS indeed contacted by someone claiming to be Cooper's widow. We have the 302 for that now (yet he interestingly leaves out a contact with "Cooper" in 1972). But I think the rest of it is made up. I think he found inspiration from this contact.  

As for the others contacted, he names two individuals: Ed Kuhn, an editor at Playboy, and Mark Penzer, his own editor at True Magazine. He admits that Kuhn died in 1980. So we're left with his buddy from True Magazine. Again, very convenient. 

Look at the items that people who believe in the veracity of his interaction with Cooper/Clara are STILL using today to give it credibility: the two others contacted, the Himmelsbach letter, and the Happy Birthday ad. The cynic in me sees this as all very clever. If you were creating some sort of performance art fictional story, this is precisely what you would do to establish credibility and give it a basis for believability. All of these items to establish credibility are things that Max could have easily controlled himself: The others contacted are friends/dead people, he conveniently has a copy of the Himmelsbach letter of good enough quality to put in the book, and the birthday ad could have easily been something entirely unrelated that he was aware of. Maybe he himself had a girlfriend at the time named Clara or something. Who knows. 

I just don't trust it. You're more open minded about it than I am. That's fine. These are just opinions. 

[olemisscub 582]

5 minutes ago, FLYJACK said:

Wasn't that slowdown due to Cooper's problem with the stairs..

Of course it was. Cooper calls to the cockpit, they report this to Soderlind and he tells them to level off and slow down to their marked bug for approach. You know this. Why are you asking?

Edited August 1 by olemisscub

[Robert99 64]

12 hours ago, FLYJACK said:

Robert,, I am still convinced that the airstairs dropping with Cooper at the end would slow the plane at least some.. acting as a 10ft x 3ft flap...

The stair did drop enough for a man to stand at the end.. according to the test.

Wouldn't that cause the plane to slow some...  that is a lot of added drag during flaps down.

It wasn't this far open/down...

As pointed out previously, the original 727s would probably have at least 10,000 pounds of drag with the landing gear down and the flaps slightly down at 15 degrees under the flight conditions that existed during the hijacking.

Even if the aft stairs were down enough for a 225-pound man to stand on the bottom step, the increase in the drag component would be less than his weight.

The increase in drag under these circumstances would be insignificant.  The change in airspeed would be hardly noticeable, if at all, to the flight crew even if the airliner was being hand flown.

[Robert99 64]

50 minutes ago, olemisscub said:

Well they definitely slowed down when they leveled off because they lowered the flaps to 30 and went down to 160KIAS. When Cooper actually jumped they had increased a smidge to 170KIAS.

The performance engineers in Minneapolis told the flight crew to fly at an Indicated Air Speed of 170 Knots to achieve the best range (most miles per gallon in automobile terminology) with the aircraft configuration that Cooper specified.

Information is not available about the climb airspeed but when they slowed down to about 135 KIAS to help Cooper get the stairs down, they would need to lower the flaps more than 15 degrees.

But at some point they climbed on up to 10,000 feet and with the flaps down to 15 degrees were doing 170 to 180 KIAS when Cooper jumped.

Edited August 1 by Robert99

[FLYJACK 785]

56 minutes ago, Robert99 said:

As pointed out previously, the original 727s would probably have at least 10,000 pounds of drag with the landing gear down and the flaps slightly down at 15 degrees under the flight conditions that existed during the hijacking.

Even if the aft stairs were down enough for a 225-pound man to stand on the bottom step, the increase in the drag component would be less than his weight.

The increase in drag under these circumstances would be insignificant.  The change in airspeed would be hardly noticeable, if at all, to the flight crew even if the airliner was being hand flown.

The drag from the wheels down, flaps down condition was already built in when Cooper went down the stairs..

I find it hard to believe the lowering the stairs with Cooper on them would not add to the existing drag and slow the plane some amount... maybe 10-20 knots?

Those stairs are acting like a big flap,, 30 sq ft... it had to have some effect..

I got 3200 lbs of drag.. probably have something wrong here what is wrong?? the angle?

https://www.symbolab.com/calculator/physics/drag-equation?calculator=drag-equation&density=1.204&density-units=kg/m^3&velocity=195&velocity-units=mi/h&drag_coefficient=1.12&area=30&area-units=ft^2&drag_force=3210.3&drag_force-units=lbf

If the drag coefficient is adjusted for angle you get 2100 lbs..

 

Edited August 1 by FLYJACK

[dudeman17 376]

11 hours ago, FLYJACK said:

It supports Cooper being military checking the cards,, and (likely) not knowing they were bailout rigs..

 

Not necessarily. Again, did he check the cards knowingly, or did he just come across them as he looked over what they gave him? If he did know gear, there are other differences. Mains use bigger canopies than bailout rigs, so they are thicker, bulkier, and heavier. Other than the D-rings, there is other hardware on mains that are not on bailouts. That picture you posted, either the picture or the rig in it is upside down, but that hardware seen on the lower right is a capewell, the method to release the canopy from the harness, there would be one of those on each shoulder. Yes on mains, not on bailouts. I think those came into use in the early 60's, so if his experience is earlier than that, maybe or maybe not he is familiar with them. If he is of military experience, he should know that most military mains would be set up for static line, he did not specify between that or freefall in his request. On freefall mains, the ripcord is usually on the right, on bailouts the left.

I don't think it can be definitively determined what his experience was.

 

[FLYJACK 785]

1 hour ago, dudeman17 said:

 

Not necessarily. Again, did he check the cards knowingly, or did he just come across them as he looked over what they gave him? If he did know gear, there are other differences. Mains use bigger canopies than bailout rigs, so they are thicker, bulkier, and heavier. Other than the D-rings, there is other hardware on mains that are not on bailouts. That picture you posted, either the picture or the rig in it is upside down, but that hardware seen on the lower right is a capewell, the method to release the canopy from the harness, there would be one of those on each shoulder. Yes on mains, not on bailouts. I think those came into use in the early 60's, so if his experience is earlier than that, maybe or maybe not he is familiar with them. If he is of military experience, he should know that most military mains would be set up for static line, he did not specify between that or freefall in his request. On freefall mains, the ripcord is usually on the right, on bailouts the left.

I don't think it can be definitively determined what his experience was.

 

My statement is correct,,, 

I said supports not proves. Looking at the card does not indicate he thought they were bailouts if mains also had cards. As previously assumed.

Asking for front and back indicates mains and complaining about no D rings suggests he expected mains.. and thought they were.

Put it all together and it suggests he did not recognize them as bailout rigs.. and that supports Cooper was not a very experienced jumper. Evidence also suggests he has some knowledge so he most likely had some experience but not much.

IMO, he had a few jumps in the military,,, definitely not a Braden type and not a total wuffo.

 

It is interesting that Cossey said the rig used had a 28ft but the packing card said 24ft... more consistent with a cheap bailout rig bought to meet regs..

 

Edited August 2 by FLYJACK

[dudeman17 376]

What do we know?...

He asks for two parachutes, clarifies two backs and two fronts. He has at least a basic idea how they are. Does he use simplistic terms because that's all he knows? Because that's what he figures the people he's asking will know? Because he's trying to obfuscate a deeper knowledge? All are possible, none can be confirmed. (Again, if he's an experienced sport jumper and comes off like one, that seriously narrows the suspect pool he's trying to get lost in.)

When the rigs are delivered, the lack of D-rings would indicate that they are not mains. Does he know about the cards, or does he just find them? Cannot be known.

He blows off the directions and seems to know how to put them on. Does that indicate paratroop training? Experienced jumper? Aircrew training? He hung out at a dz the week before and observed? Cannot be known.

My logic indicates there is no way to know what his experience is beyond a basic understanding.

Am I missing something?

[CooperNWO305 161]

22 hours ago, olemisscub said:

I think it is almost a certainty that he WAS indeed contacted by someone claiming to be Cooper's widow. We have the 302 for that now (yet he interestingly leaves out a contact with "Cooper" in 1972). But I think the rest of it is made up. I think he found inspiration from this contact.  

As for the others contacted, he names two individuals: Ed Kuhn, an editor at Playboy, and Mark Penzer, his own editor at True Magazine. He admits that Kuhn died in 1980. So we're left with his buddy from True Magazine. Again, very convenient. 

Look at the items that people who believe in the veracity of his interaction with Cooper/Clara are STILL using today to give it credibility: the two others contacted, the Himmelsbach letter, and the Happy Birthday ad. The cynic in me sees this as all very clever. If you were creating some sort of performance art fictional story, this is precisely what you would do to establish credibility and give it a basis for believability. All of these items to establish credibility are things that Max could have easily controlled himself: The others contacted are friends/dead people, he conveniently has a copy of the Himmelsbach letter of good enough quality to put in the book, and the birthday ad could have easily been something entirely unrelated that he was aware of. Maybe he himself had a girlfriend at the time named Clara or something. Who knows. 

I just don't trust it. You're more open minded about it than I am. That's fine. These are just opinions. 

I thought Barb Dayton was Clara? A bunch of people jumped on that one. 

[FLYJACK 785]

9 hours ago, dudeman17 said:

What do we know?...

He asks for two parachutes, clarifies two backs and two fronts. He has at least a basic idea how they are. Does he use simplistic terms because that's all he knows? Because that's what he figures the people he's asking will know? Because he's trying to obfuscate a deeper knowledge? All are possible, none can be confirmed. (Again, if he's an experienced sport jumper and comes off like one, that seriously narrows the suspect pool he's trying to get lost in.)

When the rigs are delivered, the lack of D-rings would indicate that they are not mains. Does he know about the cards, or does he just find them? Cannot be known.

He blows off the directions and seems to know how to put them on. Does that indicate paratroop training? Experienced jumper? Aircrew training? He hung out at a dz the week before and observed? Cannot be known.

My logic indicates there is no way to know what his experience is beyond a basic understanding.

Am I missing something?

If you demand absolutes you get nowhere, like Ryan..

The evidence indicates what is most likely,, you can always claim it isn't proven or there is some possible exception.

 

The evidence indicates..

Cooper had military and some parachute experience,, 

Asking for 2 parachutes, backs and fronts means he was neither asking for nor expecting bailout rigs. 

Checking for cards does not mean he knew they were bailout rigs.

He complained about the lack of D rings.. in his possession he still did not know they were bailout rigs. If he knew they were bailout rigs why didn't he reject them and ask for mains.. most likely he did not know.

 

A bailout rig increases survivability but also injury.. 

 

 

 

[FLYJACK 785]

22 hours ago, olemisscub said:

I think it is almost a certainty that he WAS indeed contacted by someone claiming to be Cooper's widow. We have the 302 for that now (yet he interestingly leaves out a contact with "Cooper" in 1972). But I think the rest of it is made up. I think he found inspiration from this contact.  

As for the others contacted, he names two individuals: Ed Kuhn, an editor at Playboy, and Mark Penzer, his own editor at True Magazine. He admits that Kuhn died in 1980. So we're left with his buddy from True Magazine. Again, very convenient. 

Look at the items that people who believe in the veracity of his interaction with Cooper/Clara are STILL using today to give it credibility: the two others contacted, the Himmelsbach letter, and the Happy Birthday ad. The cynic in me sees this as all very clever. If you were creating some sort of performance art fictional story, this is precisely what you would do to establish credibility and give it a basis for believability. All of these items to establish credibility are things that Max could have easily controlled himself: The others contacted are friends/dead people, he conveniently has a copy of the Himmelsbach letter of good enough quality to put in the book, and the birthday ad could have easily been something entirely unrelated that he was aware of. Maybe he himself had a girlfriend at the time named Clara or something. Who knows. 

I just don't trust it. You're more open minded about it than I am. That's fine. These are just opinions. 

The problem is,, you are just making it all up...  

You have zero evidence to back up your opinion. NADA.. it is pure speculation.

You are using a false generalization fallacy and false premise fallacy.

It is even possible you might be right, but by taking that position based on assumptions you have closed off a path of inquiry.. 

You can reject everything with assumptions. 

This is my pet peeve with many Cooper researchers,,,

Basic logic..

NEVER EVER use assumptions/logical fallacies to eliminate a line of inquiry...  USE FACTS. A good researcher's bias should be open not closed.

You can hold a counter opinion and still pursue a theory..

Using an opinion to reject a theory is bad strategy..

[georger 271]

4 hours ago, FLYJACK said:

The problem is,, you are just making it all up...  

You have zero evidence to back up your opinion. NADA.. it is pure speculation.

You are using a false generalization fallacy and false premise fallacy.

It is even possible you might be right, but by taking that position based on assumptions you have closed off a path of inquiry.. 

You can reject everything with assumptions. 

This is my pet peeve with many Cooper researchers,,,

Basic logic..

NEVER EVER use assumptions/logical fallacies to eliminate a line of inquiry...  USE FACTS. A good researcher's bias should be open not closed.

You can hold a counter opinion and still pursue a theory..

Using an opinion to reject a theory is bad strategy..

so through the lens of FJ's logic, whatever that is on any given day. Only FJ can know!

Is this simply a nervous habit, or something profoundly important? Specifically, should we stop listening to Dudeman who has a vast experience with parachutes and skydiving because:  "Using an opinion to reject a theory is bad strategy.." ?

We come to people for advice and "opinions' precisely because of their vast experience!

Hmmmmmmmm.  In the end people will do what they want to do, in any event.

Edited August 2 by georger

[olemisscub 582]

6 hours ago, CooperNWO305 said:

I thought Barb Dayton was Clara? A bunch of people jumped on that one. 

I never endorsed that. Sample size far too small for the Stylometry to be used. 

But I do remain open to that possibility due to the fact that Barb was a known Cooper bullshitter from that era and according to the Foreman’s (who don’t seem like outright liars…but maybe they are) she liked Gunther and True magazine.  

[FLYJACK 785]

2 hours ago, georger said:

so through the lens of FJ's logic, whatever that is on any given day. Only FJ can know!

Is this simply a nervous habit, or something profoundly important? Specifically, should we stop listening to Dudeman who has a vast experience with parachutes and skydiving because:  "Using an opinion to reject a theory is bad strategy.." ?

We come to people for advice and "opinions' precisely because of their vast experience!

Hmmmmmmmm.  In the end people will do what they want to do, in any event.

Sure Dudeman was incorrect about military main packing cards,, I kept pushing the issue and he looked beyond his assumption and discovered he got it wrong.. He did what most of you so called Cooper researcher's won't do,, question your own assumptions. If I hadn't pushed it we wouldn't know the truth.

and you, Georger mocked me for suggesting the money rolled along the bottom of the  River causing the rounding erosion.. Exactly the conclusion the geologist Palmer and the FBI reached. 

Why, because your first reaction to something that doesn't support your own assumption is to ridicule it.

You do it every single time... 

[FLYJACK 785]

1 hour ago, olemisscub said:

I never endorsed that. Sample size far too small for the Stylometry to be used. 

But I do remain open to that possibility due to the fact that Barb was a known Cooper bullshitter from that era and according to the Foreman’s (who don’t seem like outright liars…but maybe they are) she liked Gunther and True magazine.  

True, you didn't endorse it but you didn't really challenge it.. stylometry is random noise under 3000 word samples..

So, you are open to Barb being Clara but not Gunther being contacted by somebody claiming to be Cooper..

Makes perfect sense.

[olemisscub 582]

43 minutes ago, FLYJACK said:

True, you didn't endorse it but you didn't really challenge it.. stylometry is random noise under 3000 word samples..

So, you are open to Barb being Clara but not Gunther being contacted by somebody claiming to be Cooper..

Makes perfect sense.

Am I not allowed to be indifferent to things that pop up in the Vortex? I don’t have to challenge or endorse every topic. 

And I’m very open to Gunther being contacted by someone claiming to be Cooper’s wife, be it Barb or Cindy Lou Who. We have a 302 to back that up now. But I still find it improbable that he was contacted in 72 and then a decade later. That’s quite the long con for someone to play. 

What is your opinion on Barb possibly being Clara, Stylometry aside? 

[FLYJACK 785]

33 minutes ago, olemisscub said:

Am I not allowed to be indifferent to things that pop up in the Vortex? I don’t have to challenge or endorse every topic. 

And I’m very open to Gunther being contacted by someone claiming to be Cooper’s wife, be it Barb or Cindy Lou Who. We have a 302 to back that up now. But I still find it improbable that he was contacted in 72 and then a decade later. That’s quite the long con for someone to play. 

What is your opinion on Barb possibly being Clara, Stylometry aside? 

The Clara thing was a big deal in the Vortex,, it was clearly bogus..  your indifference was a tacit endorsement because you jump on everything.

Extremely unlikely Barb was Clara though it is virtually impossible to prove a negation. I don't even consider it a legitimate theory, like claiming the crew took the money.

You initially claimed Gunther made it all up, then the letter popped up in the FBI files,, now he was contacted in 82 but you still claim he made up the 72 contact.

If you are open to the Clara/Barb thing, you should at least be open to possibility of the '72 contact with Gunther to be consistent.. but you aren't.

[olemisscub 582]

2 minutes ago, FLYJACK said:

The Clara thing was a big deal in the Vortex,, it was clearly bogus..  your indifference was a tacit endorsement because you jump on everything.

Extremely unlikely Barb was Clara though it is virtually impossible to prove a negation. I don't even consider it a legitimate theory, like claiming the crew took the money.

You initially claimed Gunther made it all up, then the letter popped up in the FBI files,, now he was contacted in 82 but you still claim he made up the 72 contact.

If you are open to the Clara/Barb thing, you should at least be open to possibility of the '72 contact with Gunther to be consistent.. but you aren't.

 

I have seen empirical evidence that he was contacted by someone in the 80’s. I don’t have that for 72. It’s not inconsistent to believe in something for which there is evidence but remain skeptical on something without it. If we unearth a 302 from Gunther in 72 claiming that DB Cooper himself wants to meet with him, then that will change my view on it. 

And I didn’t say I’m not “open to the possibility.” I said I find it improbable. 

 

[olemisscub 582]

Sticking with my nasty habit of buying every book released about Cooper, today I received the new Reca book from Lisa Story. 

Scorched Earth should be the rule of the day with the Reca people. Normally, I’d say that suspect grifting on Cooper for profit is the most disdainful thing someone can do, but the Reca grift is even more worthy of disdain because of how insulting it is. That book has 100 pages essentially saying that “Cooper Nation”, as she calls it, are all a bunch of fools who can’t interpret evidence correctly. And not only are we fools but the pilots had no idea what they were doing and the stewardesses may as well have had the Men in Black flash the pen in their faces because their memory is so flawed that it should be outright ignored.