DB Cooper

[Kamkisky 13]

Drag bag. 
 

Here are my issues with this idea (based on my very limited knowledge of WW2 drag bags):

 

1) 20 something years later Cooper remembers enough about one to jimmy rig it with his life on the line? 

2) The military bags were supplied equipment. Guys didn’t jimmy rig them even back even then.

3) The military one were attached to the leg via quick release buckles behind the knee and by the ankle. Cooper didn’t have quick release buckles. 

4) The length of cord is problematic. Tina says she could see the bag moving behind him, in a small plane. The military bags have cords much longer than that. 

5) The military bags attach to the harness (D-rings?). Tina says it was tied to his waist. 

6) The military bags were canvas and designed to fit the leg. Cooper didn’t have that shaped bag. 

7) The military bags didn’t even work well. D-day had a lot of guys lose the bag when their chute opened. 

8) Cooper’s bag would have required a lot of loose cord be accessible to deploy somehow, the tangle with the chute factor goes up.    

9) Did any of the copycats use a drag bag?

Im not a parachute expert but it seems far simpler and more reliable to tie the money to his waist and take the extra weight on landing. Crafting a homemade drag bag seems like a bad idea.

 

 

 

Edited Wednesday at 10:02 PM by Kamkisky

[olemisscub 550]

5 hours ago, Kamkisky said:

Drag bag. 

Im not a parachute expert but it seems far simpler and more reliable to tie the money to his waist and take the extra weight on landing. Crafting a homemade drag bag seems like a bad idea.

 

It’s just such a unique thing for Tosaw to write that I have a really hard time believing he just made it up out of whole cloth. 

There have been several things that Tosaw wrote about that Cooperites used to attack him on because they weren’t found anywhere else in Cooper lore or in the 302’s yet have now been vindicated. 

He spoke to essentially everyone involved less than 15 years after the hijacking, far more than any other author ever has. 

When writing my narrative, which ended up being 80 pages, I used and relied on him more than anything else aside from the 302’s because of the access he had to the witnesses. If something he wrote contradicted with a 302, I obviously went with the 302.

Nevertheless, he did get a few things wrong of minor significance, so he’s not perfect, but most of it seems spot on. 

So I don’t think the drag bag concept is something he invented. Of course, we are calling it a drag bag simply because Tosaw says Tina saw it dragging on the floor behind him. Having played around extensively with about 80 feet of paracord and an accurate money bag that is accurately filled, I think it’s possible that Tina was just commenting on the bag dragging behind him while he was in the midst of securing it to his body not that he was necessarily going to use it as a drag bag. 

We have Tina’s statement in real time in the audio transcripts after she entered the cockpit saying that the money was tied around his waist the last time she saw him. Of course, it’s all semantics. If I saw Cooper with all this paracord wrapped around his waist and the money bag attached to his waist from a line, I myself would have probably just said “he has the money wrapped around his waist.” Thats not necessarily an inaccurate statement. 

But I highly doubt Tosaw would have made something up out of thin air like that. As I said though, Tina seeing him that was doesn’t mean he jumped intending to use a drag bag. It could just be that she just saw him looking like this shortly before he secured it to his waist. 

This would probably make a good video for me to make: to show what it actually looks like to wrap the bag and try and secure it to yourself. It’s cumbersome. Cooper could have saved himself so much headache by just demanding that they grab a knapsack off some kid in the airport and bring it to him. 

I imagine Cooper was almost certainly intending to jump with the knapsack as if it were a baby papoose or like what paratroopers used in that era called musette bags. Essentially you’d just wear the knapsack backwards like all of us did with our school backpacks sometimes, then put the parachute on over it. That would have probably been one of the best possible ways to secure the money. 

[Kamkisky 13]

41 minutes ago, olemisscub said:

…I think it’s possible that Tina was just commenting on the bag dragging behind him while he was in the midst of securing it to his body not that he was necessarily going to use it as a drag bag. 

This is where I’m at.  

Darren had a parachuting military guy on, Mike I think, who scoffed at the idea of a drag bag. They didn’t much go into it unfortunately but I think his point was a drag bag and a free fall don’t mix like a drag bag and a static line jump. 

I don’t see how Cooper makes one that’s even functional given the shape of the bags he had and the lack of release buckles. He’d have to tie knots that could work as a release and trust his life on those knots. If he could make one that functioned, he’s a cargo rigger and/or elite military parachutist damn near guaranteed. 

Edited yesterday at 04:08 AM by Kamkisky

[olemisscub 550]

5 hours ago, Kamkisky said:

Did any of the copycats use a drag bag?

 

Heady wore a fishing vest into which he stuffed the money. He actually had to leave a decent portion of it behind him on the plane because it couldn’t all fit in the vest pockets. 

McCoy brought with him a duffel bag into which he poured the money that he clipped onto his D rings. When he jumped this money actually shifted around inside the bag and screwed up his equilibrium, spinning him around until he passed out briefly. 

Mac’s bag was a heavy duty leather mail bag it had a handle at the top. He took off his belt and then looped it through the handle of the bag as he put his belt back on. He then tied the bottom portion of the bag to his left leg with twine of all things. Looping his belt through the handle wasn’t a terrible idea to ensure that the money wouldn’t come off, but unfortunately for him it was a snap belt and not a standard belt with a prong buckle. So the impact of the parachute opening rather easily unsnapped his belt and thus he lost the money. 

I’m not sure on LaPoint but I believe that one of the chase pilots who circled him as he descended under an open canopy (he jumped in broad daylight) said that the briefcase that the money was delivered in was simply being held in his hand. 

Also unsure on Hahneman and unsure how Fisher had it tied to himself as he sat on the aft stairs before chickening out. 

[georger 268]

4 hours ago, olemisscub said:

 

It’s just such a unique thing for Tosaw to write that I have a really hard time believing he just made it up out of whole cloth. 

There have been several things that Tosaw wrote about that Cooperites used to attack him on because they weren’t found anywhere else in Cooper lore or in the 302’s yet have now been vindicated. 

He spoke to essentially everyone involved less than 15 years after the hijacking, far more than any other author ever has. 

When writing my narrative, which ended up being 80 pages, I used and relied on him more than anything else aside from the 302’s because of the access he had to the witnesses. If something he wrote contradicted with a 302, I obviously went with the 302.

Nevertheless, he did get a few things wrong of minor significance, so he’s not perfect, but most of it seems spot on. 

So I don’t think the drag bag concept is something he invented. Of course, we are calling it a drag bag simply because Tosaw says Tina saw it dragging on the floor behind him. Having played around extensively with about 80 feet of paracord and an accurate money bag that is accurately filled, I think it’s possible that Tina was just commenting on the bag dragging behind him while he was in the midst of securing it to his body not that he was necessarily going to use it as a drag bag. 

We have Tina’s statement in real time in the audio transcripts after she entered the cockpit saying that the money was tied around his waist the last time she saw him. Of course, it’s all semantics. If I saw Cooper with all this paracord wrapped around his waist and the money bag attached to his waist from a line, I myself would have probably just said “he has the money wrapped around his waist.” Thats not necessarily an inaccurate statement. 

But I highly doubt Tosaw would have made something up out of thin air like that. As I said though, Tina seeing him that was doesn’t mean he jumped intending to use a drag bag. It could just be that she just saw him looking like this shortly before he secured it to his waist. 

This would probably make a good video for me to make: to show what it actually looks like to wrap the bag and try and secure it to yourself. It’s cumbersome. Cooper could have saved himself so much headache by just demanding that they grab a knapsack off some kid in the airport and bring it to him. 

I imagine Cooper was almost certainly intending to jump with the knapsack as if it were a baby papoose or like what paratroopers used in that era called musette bags. Essentially you’d just wear the knapsack backwards like all of us did with our school backpacks sometimes, then put the parachute on over it. That would have probably been one of the best possible ways to secure the money. 

Why didnt Cooper back up and demand the knapsack? He feared further interaction with the authorities?

I think the motion of a 'drag bag' is pure Toesawian!   Preposterous!

Edited yesterday at 08:22 AM by georger

[FLYJACK 773]

5 hours ago, georger said:

Why didnt Cooper back up and demand the knapsack? He feared further interaction with the authorities?

I think the motion of a 'drag bag' is pure Toesawian!   Preposterous!

He was confident in his own skills...

Why didn't he reject bailout rigs and demand reserve/mains.. maybe he didn't realize they were bailout rigs/reserves.

[haggarknew 5]

1 hour ago, FLYJACK said:

He was confident in his own skills...

Why didn't he reject bailout rigs and demand reserve/mains.. maybe he didn't realize they were bailout rigs/reserves.

Would the packing cards tell him this?

[Kamkisky 13]

1 hour ago, FLYJACK said:

He was confident in his own skills...

Why didn't he reject bailout rigs and demand reserve/mains.. maybe he didn't realize they were bailout rigs/reserves.

These are two opposite ends. If he didn’t realize those were bailout rigs he isn’t going to be confident enough in his ability to slap together a drag bag from mismatch/missing parts. He can’t know little about skydiving and be a genius at it. 

I think this is one of those myths that has been spun from a nugget of truth. Tina likely did say it was dragging behind him. That’s doesn’t mean he created a drag bag in the parachuting sense. 

If you risked your life for this pile of cash why would you do anything but strap it to your body as tight as possible? If he was worried about weight he could have asked for larger denominations. There are no style points here, you pick the option that is the most straightforward and has the best chance for success. Zero percent chance an impromptu drag bag is better odds of success than strapping to your waist. 

Imagine being under canopy (if the bag was still there) and then pulling the knots to drop it and hoping you rig works? He’d have to trust his money and his life to the knots he almost certainly had never used for this purpose…unless the theory is impromptu drag bags are something this guy has done many times before. 

If Cooper made a drag bag then Cooper and Braden likely knew each other.  

[c99acer 10]

17 minutes ago, Kamkisky said:

If you risked your life for this pile of cash why would you do anything but strap it to your body as tight as possible? If he was worried about weight he could have asked for larger denominations. There are no style points here, you pick the option that is the most straightforward and has the best chance for success. Zero percent chance an impromptu drag bag is better odds of success than strapping to your waist. 

This is the answer. He was in it for the money and nothing else. Just a different way to rob a bank.

[FLYJACK 773]

24 minutes ago, haggarknew said:

Would the packing cards tell him this?

I don't think so..

[FLYJACK 773]

24 minutes ago, Kamkisky said:

These are two opposite ends. If he didn’t realize those were bailout rigs he isn’t going to be confident enough in his ability to slap together a drag bag from mismatch/missing parts. He can’t know little about skydiving and be a genius at it. 

I think this is one of those myths that has been spun from a nugget of truth. Tina likely did say it was dragging behind him. That’s doesn’t mean he created a drag bag in the parachuting sense. 

If you risked your life for this pile of cash why would you do anything but strap it to your body as tight as possible? If he was worried about weight he could have asked for larger denominations. There are no style points here, you pick the option that is the most straightforward and has the best chance for success. Zero percent chance an impromptu drag bag is better odds of success than strapping to your waist. 

Imagine being under canopy (if the bag was still there) and then pulling the knots to drop it and hoping you rig works? He’d have to trust his money and his life to the knots he almost certainly had never used for this purpose…unless the theory is impromptu drag bags are something this guy has done many times before. 

If Cooper made a drag bag then Cooper and Braden likely knew each other.  

You are conflating two different things..

He was confident that he could secure the money but did may not have noticed the rigs were bailout/reserves.. these are not opposites.

I asked about being able to recognize the rigs and didn't really get a clear answer.

I don't see anything on the card or exterior of those rigs that clearly identifies them as bailout rigs except maybe the missing D rings. If there is, nobody has 100% identified it yet. I was pursuing that...

Cooper just tied the money to his body, it wasn't a "drag bag" per se..

Nobody legit says Cooper was a genius.. Cooper had some parachute experience but not close to Braden level. He adapted, was intelligent and determined. He did get lucky on a few things.. The crew did not notify the passengers, the crew did not run off the plane and he was not challenged by the FBI or the crew. He had it fairly easy.

 

[CooperNWO305 158]

2 hours ago, Kamkisky said:

If Cooper made a drag bag then Cooper and Braden likely knew each other

How did you get to this? Not judging here, but are you a Braden guy/paratrooper type for Cooper?

[georger 268]

1 hour ago, CooperNWO305 said:

How did you get to this? Not judging here, but are you a Braden guy/paratrooper type for Cooper?

And ... what would be the purpose or advantage of a 'drag bag' ?  2.  Carol measured the amount of cord Cooper cut and used. Its on Tom's site. Is the amount of cord Cooper took, consistent with a drag bag ? 

Edited yesterday at 07:35 PM by georger

[Robert99 60]

42 minutes ago, georger said:

And ... what would be the purpose or advantage of a 'drag bag' ?  2.  Carol measured the amount of cord Cooper cut and used. Its on Tom's site. Is the amount of cord Cooper took, consistent with a drag bag ? 

If my memory is correct, Cooper cut about 90 feet of cord from the risers of the reserve parachute that was left behind.  This is not enough cord to securely tie the money bag and also have a "drag" bag option. 

Also, it would not be a good idea for Cooper to tie things around his waist.  He should tie them to the parachute harness.  Otherwise, if he has a 10-g parachute opening shock he is going to be looking for a Chiropractor as soon as he lands.

NOTE:  I will make every effort to respond to FlyJack's post number 65625 this weekend.  He has asked valid questions and they require a lot of writing which I don't have time to do immediately.

[Kamkisky 13]

2 hours ago, CooperNWO305 said:

How did you get to this? Not judging here, but are you a Braden guy/paratrooper type for Cooper?

I was being a tad flippant. The point I was trying to make is, if we knew Cooper created an impromptu drag bag with missing/mismatched parts and it worked…that rules out all but a small group of bad ass parachutists and cargo riggers. The average Joe suspect is out. Basically, if we knew he created a drag bag the pool of suspects goes from millions to a few dozen to a few hundred. If Cooper bet his money and life on an improvised drag bag, he’s clearly an expert at the top of his game not just a guy who was a paratrooper 20 years earlier. 

Edited yesterday at 08:46 PM by Kamkisky

[olemisscub 550]

2 hours ago, Robert99 said:

If my memory is correct, Cooper cut about 90 feet of cord from the risers of the reserve parachute that was left behind.  This is not enough cord to securely tie the money bag and also have a "drag" bag option. 

 

Probably not enough to have a true paratrooper drag bag. When I was "modeling" for my AI animations, I had the chance to actually wrap the money bag and wrap cord around myself and all that and make it to where it could drag around behind me like Tosaw described. I had about 6 to 8 feet of line between the money and my waist, which is what Tina said. I used 80 feet of shroud line for this experiment, which is what Tom has on CitizenSleuths webpage. 

 

Edited yesterday at 11:05 PM by olemisscub

[olemisscub 550]

9 hours ago, FLYJACK said:

 

Why didn't he reject bailout rigs and demand reserve/mains.. maybe he didn't realize they were bailout rigs/reserves.

Likely because his experience with parachutes didn't exceed what he knew from the military. Anyone with actual recreational sport skydiving experience probably shouldn't be taken seriously as a suspect for the hijacker. 

[FLYJACK 773]

1 hour ago, olemisscub said:

Likely because his experience with parachutes didn't exceed what he knew from the military. Anyone with actual recreational sport skydiving experience probably shouldn't be taken seriously as a suspect for the hijacker. 

Not sure what you are saying..

There are military aircrew bailout rigs.. aka back reserves.

There are also military back chutes (mains) with front reserves. Hahneman ask for and got those.

Cooper did not ask for bailout rigs but didn't seem to realize he got bailout rig's aka back reserves.

 

I don't know if it is clear that a rig is a bailout rig from the card or the outside of it. Cooper complained about no D rings,,, that indicates he did not know it was a bailout rig.

 

 

[Kamkisky 13]

1 hour ago, olemisscub said:

Probably not enough to have a true paratrooper drag bag. When I was "modeling" for my AI animations, I had the chance to actually wrap the money bag and wrap cord around myself and all that and make it to where it could drag around behind me like Tosaw described. I had about 6 to 8 feet of line between the money and my waist, which is what Tina said. I used 80 feet of shroud line for this experiment, which is what Tom has on CitizenSleuths webpage. 

 

AI says the average length of the cord from the drop bag to the harness was 15-20ft. How many rows is that in a 727? 4-5? There’s no evidence Cooper was ever even that far forward in the plane. The math just doesn’t math. The military expert scoffs at the idea. I think I’m close to done on this one…there was a money bag that was dragging, there was not a drag bag.  

If I’m Cooper and I’m going to be opening the stairs and operating in a plane under those conditions tying the bag to myself in some way first makes sense. Tina was scared of being sucked out and the pilots agreed and offered for Anderson to come back and tie her to a base, if Cooper wasn’t thinking the money and he could be sucked out the back before he surely had the thought crossed his mind after that episode. 
 

Tie the bag to himself and get the stairs open. The two steps he needed before being able to escape. It makes sense he prioritized those immediately after take off. 

[olemisscub 550]

3 minutes ago, Kamkisky said:

there was a money bag that was dragging, there was not a drag bag.  

 

Yes, I tend to agree with you. Although we just don't know how Cooper left the aircraft. If he went out backward and opened his chute right as he left or even before he left, he would just be pulled out the back once the chute deployed and it wouldn't be such a violent incident. Our resident skydiving guru in the Vortex, Mark Meltzer, says that this is how he would do it. Perhaps Cooper simply picked the bag up and held onto it with his hands up against his chest, pulled the ripcord and let the chute deploy and pull him "gently" out the back and then he could let the bag go. It's REALLY freaking awkward to try and tie this heavy ass blocky bag to your body. I've tried numerous times. 

Edited 22 hours ago by olemisscub

[olemisscub 550]

16 hours ago, georger said:

Why didnt Cooper back up and demand the knapsack? He feared further interaction with the authorities?

I'm unsure about that. At the time he realized that he didn't get his knapsack (6:00pm-ish) there were still items that hadn't yet been brought out from the terminal, such as the crew meals. I suppose he could have been skittish about asking for more items, but shit, he literally spent an hour and a half MacGyvering this money bag when all he really needed to do was just say "hey, got get me a knapsack off someone in the airport ASAP".

I speculate Cooper was intending to wear his knapsack like this. Quite smart. Putting a knapsack on backward and then hooking your chute on over it would ensure that you don't lose any of it. 

[Kamkisky 13]

1 hour ago, olemisscub said:

Yes, I tend to agree with you. Although we just don't know how Cooper left the aircraft. If he went out backward and opened his chute right as he left or even before he left, he would just be pulled out the back once the chute deployed and it wouldn't be such a violent incident. Our resident skydiving guru in the Vortex, Mark Meltzer, says that this is how he would do it. Perhaps Cooper simply picked the bag up and held onto it with his hands up against his chest, pulled the ripcord and let the chute deploy and pull him "gently" out the back and then he could let the bag go. It's REALLY freaking awkward to try and tie this heavy ass blocky bag to your body. I've tried numerous times. 

I’ve wondered why he didn’t take the other back chute and convert it into a larger version of the knapsack worn backwards. I’m guessing it’s too big.

We do know he had two + other options. He had the dummy chute container and the contents. And he had the briefcase. Perhaps he split the money up. I know the dummy could not attach to D-rings but he has plenty of cordage and knows that bag is designed to jump. A briefcase is also a better shape to wrap in cordage than the money bag. The money bag could be argued as the thinnest and worst shape bag option he had. 

Edited 21 hours ago by Kamkisky

[olemisscub 550]

4 minutes ago, Kamkisky said:

I’ve wondered why he didn’t take the other back chute and convert it into a larger version of the knapsack worn backwards. I’m guessing it’s too big.

We do know he had two + other options. He had the dummy chute container and the contents. And he had the briefcase. Perhaps he split the money up. I know the dummy could not attach to D-rings but he has plenty of cordage and knows that bag is designed to jump. A briefcase is also a better shape to wrap in cordage than the money bag. The money bag could be argued as the thinnest and worst shape bag option he had. 

He had alternatives, certainly, but he didn't do utilize those alternatives so we're just stuck with wondering why he did what he did. I emptied out my T-7 and could roughly fit $80,000 in there (8 bundles), but was unable to close it. 

[olemisscub 550]

1 hour ago, FLYJACK said:

Not sure what you are saying..

There are military aircrew bailout rigs.. aka back reserves.

There are also military back chutes (mains) with front reserves. Hahneman ask for and got those.

Cooper did not ask for bailout rigs but didn't seem to realize he got bailout rig's aka back reserves.

 

I'm not sure what you are saying either. The only military "back chutes" that I'm aware of in that era were seat packs for pilots, bailout rigs like NB-6's or C-9's, and static line backpacks for paratroopers. As far as I know the only military parachuting equipment that came with D-rings were naked parachute harnesses for air crew to clip on chest packs during an emergency (like what Mac was given) and static line backpacks for paratroopers. 

[FLYJACK 773]

3 minutes ago, olemisscub said:

I'm not sure what you are saying either. The only military "back chutes" that I'm aware of in that era were seat packs for pilots, bailout rigs like NB-6's or C-9's, and static line backpacks for paratroopers. As far as I know the only military parachuting equipment that came with D-rings were naked parachute harnesses for air crew to clip on chest packs during an emergency (like what Mac was given) and static line backpacks for paratroopers. 

Don't think so..

There are military bailout rigs aka back reserves like Cooper got.

and military jump rigs backs (mains) with usually front reserves.. like Hahneman got. He did not get two reserves.

Check with Mark on that..