DB Cooper

[FLYJACK 772]

So, Mitchell wasn't sure he was the last passenger to board. It was probably Gregory.

Mitchell was close to the last. 

 

 

[olemisscub 548]

11 minutes ago, FLYJACK said:

Yes, Flo was believed less reliable due to being too emotional,, Mitchell was relied upon more for sketch B.

I know you have said she was the best witness, she wasn't considered that by the FBI.

Show me proof within the files where they say Flo isn’t as reliable as another witness because of her emotional state. You can’t do it. 

You are simply parroting something Bruce wrote in his book that Galen Cook CLAIMED an FBI agent told him.

Why would an FBI agent even tell HIM that? Which FBI agent? When? 

In fact, we have documentation that suggests quite the opposite. Comp B (and Comp A) is based on KK5-1, which Flo picked out. The framework for the entire bloody sketch itself came from Flo. So clearly they had no problems relying on her. 

You made a declarative statement. You said the FBI clearly didn’t think Flo was reliable.

Show me anywhere where the FBI say anything at all about Florence Schaffner’s reliability. You can’t. I know the files as well as you do. It’s not in there. 

[FLYJACK 772]

7 minutes ago, olemisscub said:

Show me proof within the files where they say Flo isn’t as reliable as another witness because of her emotional state. You can’t do it. 

You are simply parroting something Bruce wrote in his book that Galen Cook CLAIMED an FBI agent told him.

Why would an FBI agent even tell HIM that? Which FBI agent? When? 

In fact, we have documentation that suggests quite the opposite. Comp B (and Comp A) is based on KK5-1, which Flo picked out. The framework for the entire bloody sketch itself came from Flo. So clearly they had no problems relying on her. 

You made a declarative statement. You said the FBI clearly didn’t think Flo was reliable.

Show me anywhere where the FBI say anything at all about Florence Schaffner’s reliability. You can’t. I know the files as well as you do. It’s not in there. 

It isn't in the files, I never said it was. Hard for you to believe but not everything is in the files.

It came from Galen, not from Bruce's book, I got it elsewhere. He was working closely with the FBI at one point.. I believe him. Rataczak also said Flo was a problem.

As for sketch B they elevated Mitchell and diminished Flo's input. Maybe that is why it was different.

[olemisscub 548]

3 minutes ago, FLYJACK said:

It isn't in the files, I never said it was. Hard for you to believe but not everything is in the files.

It came from Galen, not from Bruce's book, I got it elsewhere. He was working closely with the FBI at one point.. I believe him. Rataczak also said Flo was a problem.

As for sketch B they elevated Mitchell and diminished Flo's input. Maybe that is why it was different.

You got it elsewhere? This is PRECISELY what I was just complaining about with you. It's like you can't help yourself. Rinse and repeat. You get called out on something and are asked to show receipts, but instead of conceding the point you hide behind the veil of privileged knowledge. It's a bullshit tactic to try and save face and you do it repeatedly. So yes, let us all trust your and Galen's hearsay (or fiction) over actual source documentation. No thanks. 

Additionally, this balderdash bullshit about the FBI relying more heavily on Mitchell over Flo for Comp B is laughable. We literally have them saying to NOT do that during the creation of Comp B:

Furthermore, we know the sequence of events for the creation of Comp B. For all of the Comp B's we know when they were reviewed by the witnesses and we know that the passengers came before the stews. We have a file where they explicitly say to show it to the passengers first so their adjustments weren't the final product. They wanted the stews to be able to make the final adjustments. 

And we know that they did in fact do this because we have the exact dates when these witnesses were consulted. And the passengers were consulted first, not because they were more reliable, but because the FBI CLEARLY valued the stewardesses more and thus didn't want any of the passenger critiques to have more value than those of the stews.

And sure, we all know Flo was shaken up, but that doesn't mean her testimony would be given less weight than a college kid sitting across the aisle who had no actual reason to commit anything to memory. Flo was the only person who interacted with Cooper extensively on multiple occasions before he became the hijacker. She also interacted with him multiple occasions after he became the hijacker. They clearly valued her input because KK5-1 became the foundation for every Cooper sketch. They also went back to her for every sketch and also for suspect photo reviews as late as 2011 with L.D. Cooper. 

I have no idea where Galen came up with this, but IF an FBI agent in the 20th century said such a thing, then that was his opinion and not something derived from the files. The files DEMONSTRABLY demonstrate that Galen's claim is untrue. 

This is the delightful thing about the files being released. People aren't allowed anymore to just willy nilly say shit to bolster their pet suspect or agenda. We have receipts now. 

 

[olemisscub 548]

This is an obnoxious argument and someone who knows the files should be ashamed to argue that Flo wasn't given credibility by the FBI. We literally HAVE the look of what became the final Comp B in large part because of Flo's comments on the Hoodlum. They clearly followed her adjustment suggestions.

 

Edited Tuesday at 01:37 AM by olemisscub

[FLYJACK 772]

22 minutes ago, olemisscub said:

You got it elsewhere? This is PRECISELY what I was just complaining about with you. It's like you can't help yourself. Rinse and repeat. You get called out on something and are asked to show receipts, but instead of conceding the point you hide behind the veil of privileged knowledge. It's a bullshit tactic to try and save face and you do it repeatedly. So yes, let us all trust your and Galen's hearsay (or fiction) over actual source documentation. No thanks. 

Additionally, this balderdash bullshit about the FBI relying more heavily on Mitchell over Flo for Comp B is laughable. We literally have them saying to NOT do that during the creation of Comp B:

Furthermore, we know the sequence of events for the creation of Comp B. For all of the Comp B's we know when they were reviewed by the witnesses and we know that the passengers came before the stews. We have a file where they explicitly say to show it to the passengers first so their adjustments weren't the final product. They wanted the stews to be able to make the final adjustments. 

And we know that they did in fact do this because we have the exact dates when these witnesses were consulted. And the passengers were consulted first, not because they were more reliable, but because the FBI CLEARLY valued the stewardesses more and thus didn't want any of the passenger critiques to have more value than those of the stews.

And sure, we all know Flo was shaken up, but that doesn't mean her testimony would be given less weight than a college kid sitting across the aisle who had no actual reason to commit anything to memory. Flo was the only person who interacted with Cooper extensively on multiple occasions before he became the hijacker. She also interacted with him multiple occasions after he became the hijacker. They clearly valued her input because KK5-1 became the foundation for every Cooper sketch. They also went back to her for every sketch and also for suspect photo reviews as late as 2011 with L.D. Cooper. 

I have no idea where Galen came up with this, but IF an FBI agent in the 20th century said such a thing, then that was his opinion and not something derived from the files. The files DEMONSTRABLY demonstrate that Galen's claim is untrue. 

This is the delightful thing about the files being released. People aren't allowed anymore to just willy nilly say shit to bolster their pet suspect or agenda. We have receipts now. 

 

What I meant was it came from Galen but from elsewhere... not Bruce's book.

I am not being called out for anything,, either you trust Galen on this or not,,

This goes back years.. long before the sketch A v B debate. So, no bias or agenda.

Rataczak also said Flo had problems during the hijacking.. lending credibility.

I believe Galen, he worked closely with the FBI years ago..

and don't see anything in the files that contradict it, your claim that the files prove it untrue are false.

If you don't beleive him that is up to you.

[FLYJACK 772]

12 minutes ago, olemisscub said:

This is an obnoxious argument and someone who knows the files should be ashamed to argue that Flo wasn't given credibility for Comp B. We literally HAVE the look of what became the final Comp B because of Flo's comments on the Hoodlum. They clearly followed her adjustment suggestions to a T. 

 

It isn't an obnoxious argument,, it isn't really even an argument..

I heard this many years ago from Galen who worked closely with FBI back then, long before any sketch A v B debate. Why would he make it up.

The only argument is whether you trust Galen on this or not..

I trust Galen more than most of the people in the Vortex.

 

[olemisscub 548]

29 minutes ago, FLYJACK said:

It isn't an obnoxious argument,, it isn't really even an argument..

I heard this many years ago from Galen who worked closely with FBI back then, long before any sketch A v B debate. Why would he make it up.

The only argument is whether you trust Galen on this or not..

I trust Galen more than most of the people in the Vortex.

 

And you trust him more than the FBI themselves apparently. Even if an FBI agent said something in the 2000’s, if it’s directly contradicted by what the Bureau ACTUALLY DID back in 1971 and 1972, then it’s irrelevant. 

We have the files now for the sketches. There isn’t some secret vault that contains sketch info. That isn’t how this works. The files that document how the sketches were ACTUALLY made directly contradict what Galen claims this FBI agent said, so it’s irrelevant.

They didn’t prioritize Mitchell over Schaffner. That’s an actual documented fact. It isn’t an opinion. What an FBI agent MAY have said in the 2000’s is irrelevant. It’s like waving around a statement from an FBI agent who told someone that JFK was President in 1985. Demonstrably inaccurate statements are irrelevant. 

Edited Tuesday at 02:20 AM by olemisscub

[FLYJACK 772]

5 minutes ago, olemisscub said:

And you trust him more than the FBI themselves apparently. Even if an FBI agent said something in the 2000’s, if it’s directly contradicted by what the Bureau ACTUALLY did back in 1971 and 1972, then it’s irrelevant. 

We have the files now for the sketches. There isn’t some secret vault that contains sketch info. That isn’t how this works. The files that document how the sketches were ACTUALLY made directly contradicts what Galen claims this FBI agent said, so it’s irrelevant.

They didn’t prioritize Mitchell over Schaffner. That’s an actual documented fact. It isn’t an opinion. What an FBI agent MAY have said in the 2000’s is irrelevant. It’s like waving around a statement from an FBI agent who told someone that JFK was President in 1985. Demonstrably inaccurate statements are irrelevant. 

It is not a DOCUMENTED fact... hyperbolic.

Mitchell did not have real input on the initial production of sketch A.

I assume they didn't eliminate Flo completely from B, just elevated Mitchell and reduced her input.

The files don't have everything... they are mostly summaries and not primary docs like the sketch artist interviews with witnesses. Those are on forms.

The benzedrine isn't in the FBI docs.. did it not exist.

I trust that the FBI told Galen, maybe they lied to him. 

Fact is,, you are assuming he is lying with no proof to make your argument..

I have no doubt that Mitchell played a bigger role in B v A, Flo was emotional and B was different from A.. by logical inference.. Mitchell's input accounts for most of the difference in the sketches. Galen's claim fits in this framework. 

 

[Kamkisky 13]

I must have got the Flo thing from Bruce’s book. 

It seems to me we have a he said/she said regarding boarding. She said it first, his version makes more sense. We’d need collaborating evidence akin to:

- Hal stating he went to the plane first or commenting on when Dan boarded 

- A third witness who saw him board

Somehow it seems Cooper miracles himself not just to the airport but into the plane. How can a guy board a small plane and only two people claim to have seen him do so and they have totally opposite stories? Wild.

[FLYJACK 772]

29 minutes ago, Kamkisky said:

I must have got the Flo thing from Bruce’s book. 

It seems to me we have a he said/she said regarding boarding. She said it first, his version makes more sense. We’d need collaborating evidence akin to:

- Hal stating he went to the plane first or commenting on when Dan boarded 

- A third witness who saw him board

Somehow it seems Cooper miracles himself not just to the airport but into the plane. How can a guy board a small plane and only two people claim to have seen him do so and they have totally opposite stories? Wild.

Michael has done many interviews over the years and never mentioned seeing Cooper boarding until now..

He recently said he could still ID Cooper...  yet, he wasn't a primary witness.

[Kamkisky 13]

Flo - 

SCHAFFNER said that she was standing at the rear entrance to the plane, checking passengers onto NWA Flight 305 in Portland, Oregon. She said that the man, who she later learned was the hijacker, was next to the last person to board the plane. She said that the man did not appear suspicious and did not attract her attention.

Alice -

On November 24, 1971, Mrs. HANCOCK stated that the individual who hijacked Northwest Airlines Flight #305, Boeing 727, initially boarded the aircraft in Portland Oregon, and at the time he boarded the aircraft he was: carrying a briefcase which measured about 12 inches by 18 inches and was dark brown or black in color.

Gregory - 
Mr. GREGORY said he had not seen this man board the aircraft but remarked that he, GREGORY, was the last passenger on board at Portland.

……..

Gregory says he was last to board. But he was likely ticketed and would have been with the other passengers in the terminal. Bill Mitchell was standby and hustled to even make it. It seems Gregory was the last of the passengers in the terminal group to board. If that is true, and what Flo says is true (Cooper is second to last)…Cooper boarded right before Gregory (Mitchell not with group yet). Yet, Gregory didn’t see him? Or somehow Cooper was so far behind the terminal group Gregory could not see him when boarding and thought he was last (with Cooper and Mitchell to come)? Seems improbable. 
 

And how does Flo note that he boards second to last but say he didn’t attract her attention. Meanwhile Alice is giving detailed carpenter’s measurements of what his briefcase looked like when he boarded…how does she know?
 

We go from Hal spotting Cooper to moments later Flo saying he didn’t attract her attention and Gregory claiming to have not even seen him board, yet Alice is giving details “at the time he boarded the aircraft.”

Edited Tuesday at 06:56 AM by Kamkisky

[FLYJACK 772]

boarding.. 

Mitchell (admitted he was near last, said first noticed Cooper when he spilled his drink.)

then Dan Cooper, second to last (Flo)

then Gregory last, (Gregory, He was late and believes he was the last passenger to board the aircraft)

[FLYJACK 772]

From 2011.. long before any sketch A v B perceived debate (IMO, there is no real debate even now, sketch B is provably better)

Facts,,

Galen had a close relationship with the FBI. He had no sketch bias.

Sketch A was heavily influenced by Flo.

Mitchell played a greater role in B than A.

Flo was more emotional than Mitchell.

Sketch B was different from A.

 

Logical inference,, Mitchell's increased input in sketch B accounts for some of the difference in the sketches.

[Kamkisky 13]

1 hour ago, FLYJACK said:

boarding.. 

Mitchell (admitted he was near last, said first noticed Cooper when he spilled his drink.)

then Dan Cooper, second to last (Flo)

then Gregory last, (Gregory, He was late and believes he was the last passenger to board the aircraft)

At some point it doesn’t matter the order of Mitchell or Gregory. There are two men who were either in front or behind Cooper boarding (#2) according to Flo. And both are mere feet from him in the back of the plane. Yet, neither of those men saw him board. How can we explain that?

The third man in the rear of the plane has a viable explanation and does claim to have seen Dan board. Michael’s version lines up better with Bill and Gregory’s than Flo’s. That’s a problem for the boarded second to last theory. 
 

We have four stories from the four people in the rear. Three of them are easily compatible. One of those stories would make the other three likely incompatible. Am I missing something here? 

Edited Tuesday at 02:26 PM by Kamkisky

[FLYJACK 772]

24 minutes ago, Kamkisky said:

At some point it doesn’t matter the order of Mitchell or Gregory. There are two men who were either in front or behind Cooper boarding (#2) according to Flo. And both are mere feet from him in the back of the plane. Yet, neither of those men saw him board. How can we explain that?

The third man in the rear of the plane has a viable explanation and does claim to have seen Dan board. Michael’s version lines up better with Bill and Gregory’s than Flo’s. That’s a problem for the boarded second to last theory. 
 

We have four stories from the four people in the rear. Three of them are easily compatible. One of those stories would make the other three likely incompatible. Am I missing something here? 

Your conclusion is flawed...

Neither remembered seeing him board. That is not the same as not seeing him board and Cooper not boarding near the end.

Dan Cooper was not yet the "suspicious guy" and hijacker so he was not drawing attention at that time. They could have seen him board but didn't remember or just didn't notice. That doesn't mean he didn't board near the end.

Michael Cooper's account is not credible.  He recently claimed he could still recognize and pick out Cooper..  He was not primary witness.

 

An aside,, my current working theory is that Cooper flew into PDX earlier that day,,

 

[Kamkisky 13]

1 minute ago, FLYJACK said:

Your conclusion is flawed...

Neither remembered seeing him board. That is not the same as not seeing him board and Cooper not boarding near the end.

Dan Cooper was not yet the "suspicious guy" and hijacker so he was not drawing attention at that time. They could have seen him board but didn't remember or just didn't notice. That doesn't mean he didn't board near the end.

Michael Cooper's account is not credible.  He recently claimed he could still recognize and pick out Cooper..  He was not primary witness.

 

An aside,, my current working theory is that Cooper flew into PDX earlier that day,,

 

It’s a small plane. A group of people walked out of the terminal at the same time. Four grownups in back of the plane. These guys are close enough to spit at each other. I get he wasn’t the highjacker yet but he was in their immediate space. And that argument goes both ways, Dan wasn’t the highjacker when Flo claims he wasn’t noticeable yet noticed and noted his boarding order. 

We either dismiss two accounts as being oblivious and a third as a fabulist or we question the accuracy of the fourth. Those seem to be the options. 

[FLYJACK 772]

23 minutes ago, Kamkisky said:

It’s a small plane. A group of people walked out of the terminal at the same time. Four grownups in back of the plane. These guys are close enough to spit at each other. I get he wasn’t the highjacker yet but he was in their immediate space. And that argument goes both ways, Dan wasn’t the highjacker when Flo claims he wasn’t noticeable yet noticed and noted his boarding order. 

We either dismiss two accounts as being oblivious and a third as a fabulist or we question the accuracy of the fourth. Those seem to be the options. 

The argument doesn't go both ways.

Flo noticed because it was her job to check boarding passengers. 

Gregory and Mitchell not recalling Dan Cooper boarding is not a big deal at all.

[Kamkisky 13]

Just now, FLYJACK said:

The argument doesn't go both ways.

Flo noticed because it was her job to check boarding passengers. 

Gregory and Mitchell not recalling Dan Cooper boarding is not a big deal at all.

You're in the two oblivious and one fabulist camp. Ok. I’m not claiming one side here yet. 

How does Alice know nuanced measurements of his briefcase as he is boarding? Was she back there? 

[Kamkisky 13]

Then we have this from Bill’s, which doesn’t even make sense  -

The subject boarded after MITCHELL left Portland, Oregon. 

[FLYJACK 772]

15 minutes ago, Kamkisky said:

You're in the two oblivious and one fabulist camp. Ok. I’m not claiming one side here yet. 

How does Alice know nuanced measurements of his briefcase as he is boarding? Was she back there? 

Alice saw the briefcase later as well, she is probably recalling that impression for measurements.

[FLYJACK 772]

16 minutes ago, Kamkisky said:

Then we have this from Bill’s, which doesn’t even make sense  -

The subject boarded after MITCHELL left Portland, Oregon. 

 

Mitchell was not certain he was last to board, just that he was close to the end. 

 

 

Edited Tuesday at 03:55 PM by FLYJACK

[Kamkisky 13]

19 minutes ago, FLYJACK said:

Alice saw the briefcase later as well, she is probably recalling that impression for measurements.

That’s not what it says…

On November 24, 1971, Mrs. HANCOCK stated that the individual who hijacked Northwest Airlines Flight #305, Boeing 727, initially boarded the aircraft in Portland Oregon, and at the time he boarded the aircraft he was: carrying a briefcase which measured about 12 inches by 18 inches and was dark brown or black in color.

[FLYJACK 772]

18 minutes ago, Kamkisky said:

That’s not what it says…

On November 24, 1971, Mrs. HANCOCK stated that the individual who hijacked Northwest Airlines Flight #305, Boeing 727, initially boarded the aircraft in Portland Oregon, and at the time he boarded the aircraft he was: carrying a briefcase which measured about 12 inches by 18 inches and was dark brown or black in color.

First thing you need to be careful of,, that is a summary written from agent notes usually by a third party.. it is not verbatim from Alice.

For example,, it does not say she saw Dan Cooper board with a briefcase 12 by 18...

 

This is a general statement recalling her knowledge not what she actually saw...  usually the FBI puts witness statements in quotes to be precise. If it was Alice said "I saw..." that would be different.

 

Edited Tuesday at 04:30 PM by FLYJACK

[olemisscub 548]

14 hours ago, FLYJACK said:

It is not a DOCUMENTED fact... hyperbolic.

 

Hyperbolic? We literally have an FBI document from the DIRECTOR OF THE FBI'S OFFICE stating "Here is the new sketch. Here is how it was created."

I swear debating with you is like living in some bizarro world. You simply REFUSE to admit you're wrong regardless of what evidence is presented before you. Even in spite of me presenting a plain English document stating HOW COMP B WAS CREATED you won't acknowledge it and will just say "well, we don't have all the files..." This isn't like the Benzedrine example. That is something that ISN'T in the files. This IS in the files. A hearsay statement allegedly given by an FBI agent in the 2000's CANNOT trump an original source document that is stating as plain as day the COMPLETE OPPOSITE. 

Frankly, if you continue to argue this point that Comp B came from Bill Mitchell instead of Flo Schaffner then its a demonstration of some psychological defect on your part where you simply cannot give an inch after you've stated a position on something. 

 

Edited Tuesday at 05:23 PM by olemisscub