DB Cooper

[FLYJACK 769]

48 minutes ago, monk71 said:

Please explain and/or cite sources.

It is quite simple, Cini was not the only one to come up with the idea..

The idea existed well before Cini tried it.

Edited yesterday at 03:37 AM by FLYJACK

[monk71 3]

2 hours ago, FLYJACK said:

It is quite simple, Cini was not the only one to come up with the idea..

The idea existed well before Cini tried it.

If you are referring to Joseph Henry Johnston or the Elsinor Ghost, it is uncertain if they ever put it all together with "ransom"... and Cooper couldn't easily read about them in a newspaper, like Cini.

Cooper's main contribution to the idea was to choose a better plane than Paul Joseph Cini. Instead of standing on the shoulders of giants before him, Cooper saw past the stumbling bungler who failed. Unsure what is so hard to believe about that.
 

[olemisscub 545]

On 7/5/2025 at 1:33 AM, FLYJACK said:

Cooper was not a Cini copycat.

 

It’s not something we can know. But nothing about Cooper’s heist required more than a week to plan. The idea that two men were simultaneously coming up with a similar heist at the same time that had never before been attempted seems improbable. Not totally inconceivable or anything, but just seems unlikely. 

Edited yesterday at 11:58 AM by olemisscub

[FLYJACK 769]

6 hours ago, monk71 said:

If you are referring to Joseph Henry Johnston or the Elsinor Ghost, it is uncertain if they ever put it all together with "ransom"... and Cooper couldn't easily read about them in a newspaper, like Cini.

Cooper's main contribution to the idea was to choose a better plane than Paul Joseph Cini. Instead of standing on the shoulders of giants before him, Cooper saw past the stumbling bungler who failed. Unsure what is so hard to believe about that.
 

Nope.

[FLYJACK 769]

1 hour ago, olemisscub said:

It’s not something we can know. But nothing about Cooper’s heist required more than a week to plan. The idea that two men were simultaneously coming up with a similar heist at the same time that had never before been attempted seems improbable. Not totally inconceivable or anything, but just seems unlikely. 

Objectively, it could be planned within 12 days but there is no evidence for a connection.. and unlikely a copycat would pull it off so close in time and geography.

I have evidence that it was being discussed in Vietnam in the late 60's.. I am sure others had the idea as well... before Cini.

Combining parachuting with hijacking is a natural progression.

 

The news was not as ubiquitous as today, some Cini articles didn't even mention a parachute others barely did.

Later articles emphasized the parachute more.

If a drunk Cini could figure it out...  many could have.

Edited yesterday at 01:05 PM by FLYJACK

[Kamkisky 11]

5 hours ago, olemisscub said:

It’s not something we can know. But nothing about Cooper’s heist required more than a week to plan. The idea that two men were simultaneously coming up with a similar heist at the same time that had never before been attempted seems improbable. Not totally inconceivable or anything, but just seems unlikely. 

I posted on this topic at Reddit recently (Whose Idea…).
 

There’s evidence to the contrary of your view that nothing here requires more than 11 days. The Cooper copycats come mainly in the criminal and active PTSD varieties. Other skyjackers were largely ideological (Cuba).

Mac is a great criminal example. Mac wasn’t a startup criminal, he had experience. While he wasn’t an FBI top ten type he was a legit criminal. Look at how long it took him to put together his parajacking…and that’s with Cooper as a model. The idea Cooper could put it all together in 11 days start to finish is not supported by this example. And Cooper doesn’t seem to fit with the PTSD group. 

As for two people coming up with the idea simultaneously…there’s evidence we have that several people were bumping up against this idea before and right around Cini. As soon as the thought turns from ideology to money an escape plan is required and a parachute is obvious. I’d bet there were probably thousands and thousands of people who read a paper and had a thought like this. It’s not solving some hundred year old math problem professors have gone to the grave having never figured out. It’s fairly obvious. Hell, once you view it as a robbery it’s really the only answer. 

Edited yesterday at 04:29 PM by Kamkisky

[Kamkisky 11]

Highjacking a plane for money can be thought about as an extension of train robbing from the century before. Once on the train and it’s moving there’s only two options…stop the train or jump from a moving train. Well…you can’t stop a jet in mid flight. What’s left? 
 

The more I get into this case the more amazed I am it took that long for someone to do this.  

[FLYJACK 769]

1 hour ago, Kamkisky said:

I posted on this topic at Reddit recently (Whose Idea…).
 

There’s evidence to the contrary of your view that nothing here requires more than 11 days. The Cooper copycats come mainly in the criminal and active PTSD varieties. Other skyjackers were largely ideological (Cuba).

Mac is a great criminal example. Mac wasn’t a startup criminal, he had experience. While he wasn’t an FBI top ten type he was a legit criminal. Look at how long it took him to put together his parajacking…and that’s with Cooper as a model. The idea Cooper could put it all together in 11 days start to finish is not supported by this example. And Cooper doesn’t seem to fit with the PTSD group. 

As for two people coming up with the idea simultaneously…there’s evidence we have that several people were bumping up against this idea before and right around Cini. As soon as the thought turns from ideology to money an escape plan is required and a parachute is obvious. I’d bet there were probably thousands and thousands of people who read a paper and had a thought like this. It’s not solving some hundred year old math problem professors have gone to the grave having never figured out. It’s fairly obvious. Hell, once you view it as a robbery it’s really the only answer. 

Cooper had military and some jump experience, he could have planned it within days. Mac is not a good example.

As for PTSD, there is nothing to show one way or another if Cooper had it.

[Kamkisky 11]

32 minutes ago, FLYJACK said:

Cooper had military and some jump experience, he could have planned it within days. Mac is not a good example.

As for PTSD, there is nothing to show one way or another if Cooper had it.

Mac had military experience too. 

Mac is the best example we have of how a criminal mind would approach a parajacking. If you want to get away it takes time to prepare. 

It’s easy from a distance say it could be pulled off in 11 days. If you were looking at spending decades in a cage if you get it wrong…yeah…not the same. 

[FLYJACK 769]

13 minutes ago, Kamkisky said:

Mac had military experience too. 

Mac is the best example we have of how a criminal mind would approach a parajacking. If you want to get away it takes time to prepare. 

It’s easy from a distance say it could be pulled off in 11 days. If you were looking at spending decades in a cage if you get it wrong…yeah…not the same. 

Mac had no aviation or parachuting experience,,

A competent military guy with aviation and some parachute experience could pull it together.. Mac was not that guy.. using him as an argument is just bogus.

It is even easier from a distance to reject it based on irrelevant arguments.

I see no reason to believe it had to take more than 12 days to plan.. 

I also know for a fact that others had the idea before Cini..

 

Edited 23 hours ago by FLYJACK

[FLYJACK 769]

The primary goal of a suspect sketch is to generate leads... it is not specific enough alone to eliminate suspects.

The FBI wanted to get better leads as they were wasting time on the poor leads generated by sketch A. That is why they did sketch B.

Edited 23 hours ago by FLYJACK

[Kamkisky 11]

38 minutes ago, FLYJACK said:

Mac had no aviation or parachuting experience,,

A competent military guy with aviation and some parachute experience could pull it together.. Mac was not that guy.. using him as an argument is just bogus.

It is even easier from a distance to reject it based on irrelevant arguments.

I see no reason to believe it had to take more than 12 days to plan.. 

I also know for a fact that others had the idea before Cini..

 

There is no evidence it could be put together in 11 days. That’s the post hoc rationale you mentioned. It’s just assuming Cini is the root cause and working in reverse. It’s 11 days because from that perspective it has to be. 

The criminal copycats show it takes longer, with a better example (Cooper) as a starting point. I’ve been reading up on bank robberies…it takes time to be successful. You have to scout and plan and prepare and generally you aren’t robbing in your neighborhood so there’s distance and transportation, blah blah. These guys also have to live during this phase and deal with all the normal life stuff on top. Anyone that has done project management for a living knows everything takes longer than wanted/anticipated. 
 

Think about it like this, would you rush a crime that could put you in a cage for life? Of course not. You’d plan it out till you were confident. That’s what successful bank robbers tend to do. It’s the PTSD guys who fly off the handle and rush it. 

Edited 22 hours ago by Kamkisky

[FLYJACK 769]

6 minutes ago, Kamkisky said:

There is no evidence it could be put together in 11 days. That’s the post hoc rationale you mentioned. It’s just assuming Cini is the root cause and working in reverse. It’s 11 days because from that perspective it has to be. 

The criminal copycats show it takes longer, with a better example (Cooper) as a starting point. I’ve been reading up on bank robberies…it takes time to be successful. You have to scout and plan and prepare and generally you aren’t robbing in your neighborhood so there’s distance and transportation, blah blah. These guys also have to live during this phase and deal with all the normal life stuff on top. Anyone that has done project management for a living knows everything takes longer than wanted/anticipated. 
 

Think about it like this, would you rush a crime that could put you in a cage for life? Of course not. You’d plan it out till you were confident. That’s what successful bank robbers tend to do. It’s the PTSD guys who fly off the handle and rush it. 

I said objectively,, there is no reason for it to take more than the 12 days..

You have made up a nonsense argument to fit your opinion.

The difference is you are claiming he couldn't plan it in 12 days.. I am saying there is nothing to show that he couldn't.

Edited 22 hours ago by FLYJACK

[Kamkisky 11]

4 minutes ago, FLYJACK said:

I said objectively,, there is no reason for it to take more than the 12 days..

You have made up a nonsense argument to fit your opinion.

The difference is you are claiming he couldn't plan it in 12 days.. I am saying there is nothing to show that he couldn't.

I gave a real life example. You have given an opinion on something you’ve never done. 
 

For the record, I don’t rule out Cini as the starting point but there are issues and counter examples. I don’t just ignore those.  

[FLYJACK 769]

19 minutes ago, Kamkisky said:

I gave a real life example. You have given an opinion on something you’ve never done. 
 

For the record, I don’t rule out Cini as the starting point but there are issues and counter examples. I don’t just ignore those.  

I know juggling knives is dangerous but have never done it. 

Mac is irrelevant. Breaking news,, He was NOT Cooper.. 

Objectively, a competent military guy with aviation and jump experience does not require more than 12 days.. Do you think Braden would need more than 12 days?  I am not arguing Cooper did plan it in 12 days, I am arguing he could have.

Cini was not the starting point. I have ruled it out.

The argument to reject Cini as inspiration because 12 days is too short to plan is just bogus.. You don't need to have hijacked and jumped from a plane to figure that out.

Edited 21 hours ago by FLYJACK

[olemisscub 545]

1 hour ago, FLYJACK said:

Mac had no aviation or parachuting experience,

fwiw, Mac had 1800 flight hours in a P-2 Neptune as a crewman. One of his fellow crewmen testified at Mac’s trial that his crew had parachute training, but said he couldn’t recall Mac being there.

Not that it matters if Mac was there - he clearly didn’t have a clue or what he was doing with the parachute and had to have the flight engineer show him how to put it on at gunpoint. 

. 

[Kamkisky 11]

20 minutes ago, FLYJACK said:

I know juggling knives is dangerous but have never done it. 

Mac is irrelevant. Breaking news,, He was NOT Cooper.. 

Objectively, a competent military guy with aviation and jump experience does not require more than 12 days.. Do you think Braden would need more than 12 days?  I am not arguing Cooper did plan it in 12 days, I am arguing he could have.

Cini was not the starting point. I have ruled it out.

Mac is very relevant. He is an inside look into how the criminal mind would approach the same crime. 
 

If you want to go full out after hearing Cini why would it even take 11 days? Go to the nearest hardware store and get some dynamite and battery and wires. Head to a thrift store for the suit and tie and briefcase. Wake up the next morning and fly to Portland. 48 hours and Braden boards a flight to parajack. 
 

It’s if you want to not get caught that takes time. 

Edited 21 hours ago by Kamkisky

[olemisscub 545]

8 minutes ago, Kamkisky said:

It’s if you want to not get caught that takes time. 

Maybe Cooper didn’t care. He repeatedly told Tina he wasn’t going to be taken alive. 

Heady surely didn’t want to be caught, but he did it in just a few days. “There wasn’t much planning, but I knew it could be done.”

Not that the FBI knew one way or the other, but they definitely thought he was inspired by Cini. 

Edited 21 hours ago by olemisscub

[FLYJACK 769]

1 minute ago, Kamkisky said:

Mac is very relevant. He is an inside look into how the criminal mind would approach the same crime. 
 

If you want to go full out after hearing Cini why would it even take 11 days? Go to the nearest hardware store and get some dynamite and battery and wires. Head to a thrift store for the suit and tie and briefcase. Wake up the next morning and fly to Portland. 48 hours and Braden boards a flight to parajack. 

He is irrelevant. He wasn't Cooper. In many ways he was incompetent and lucky he wasn't killed..

Cooper was much more competent/experienced than Mac but less than Braden.

To claim Cooper would do what Mac did is an irrational argument. 

 

 

[Kamkisky 11]

2 minutes ago, olemisscub said:

Maybe Cooper didn’t care. He repeatedly told Tina he wasn’t going to be taken alive. 

Heady surely didn’t want to be caught, but he did it in just a few days. “There wasn’t much planning, but I knew it could be done.”

Is Heady PTSD? 
 

I’m talking about a sane professional criminal who doesn’t want to get caught. Those types plan the bank robbery in detail. 
 

 

Edited 21 hours ago by Kamkisky

[FLYJACK 769]

2 minutes ago, Kamkisky said:

Is Heady PTSD? 
 

I’m talking about a sane professional criminal who doesn’t want to get caught. Those types plan the bank robbery in detail. 
 

 

Weren't all or almost all hijackers suffering from mental issues...

[Kamkisky 11]

2 minutes ago, FLYJACK said:

He is irrelevant. He wasn't Cooper. In many ways he was incompetent and lucky he wasn't killed..

Cooper was much more competent/experienced than Mac but less than Braden.

To claim Cooper would do what Mac did is an irrational argument. 

 

 

I agree Cooper is a better criminal than Mac. Analogies aren’t exact. It’s the mindset and behaviors. Mac offered the stews tips too, he refused drinks/food after starting, etc. 
 

I don’t see any behaviors from Cooper that indicate he was Rambo popping off. The skyjacking wasn’t approached like a military mission. It lacks the precision. Guys like Braden aren’t offering pills or meals or tips or any of the sort. 

[olemisscub 545]

1 minute ago, FLYJACK said:

Weren't all or almost all hijackers suffering from mental issues...

Yes. Cooper was certainly the most rational actor of any of the hijackers I’ve ever come across. But to do this in the first place you have to be a bit off your rocker. 

[FLYJACK 769]

7 minutes ago, Kamkisky said:

I agree Cooper is a better criminal than Mac. Analogies aren’t exact. It’s the mindset and behaviors. Mac offered the stews tips too, he refused drinks/food after starting, etc. 
 

I don’t see any behaviors from Cooper that indicate he was Rambo popping off. The skyjacking wasn’t approached like a military mission. It lacks the precision. Guys like Braden aren’t offering pills or meals or tips or any of the sort. 

I was indifferent to the Cini connection... but always rejected the 12 day time frame argument against.. of course it is possible..  but when I found evidence that this was discussed in Vietnam well before Cini it confirmed that the idea was not exclusive to Cini and a rather obvious progression of thought..

[olemisscub 545]

23 minutes ago, Kamkisky said:

Is Heady PTSD?

Suffering tremendously. He credits his time in prison with helping him heal. We’re working to get him to CC this year. Mac may be back as well. 

Edited 21 hours ago by olemisscub