DB Cooper

[olemisscub 545]

1 hour ago, FLYJACK said:

 

 

TBAR erosion pattern..

For the hell of it I decided to upload a bunch of the Cooper money photos to ChatGPT. I explained that it washed up on a beach originally in a bundle and asked what would be the cause of the edges looking that way. 

• Soil Acidity & Microbial Activity:

  • Paper currency buried underground is vulnerable to fungi, bacteria, and acidic soil.

  • These eat away at the cellulose fibers, starting from exposed edges.

  • That’s why the edges are more deteriorated—microbes attack from the outside in.

• Water Damage (Floodplain or Tidal Influence):

  • Repeated wetting and drying cycles from a tidal area or seasonal flooding cause the paper to delaminate and rot unevenly.

  • Saltwater or brackish water could accelerate this if found near a coast or estuary.

• Oxygen Deprivation (Partial Anaerobic Conditions):

  • In deeper soil or under dense sediment, oxygen is limited, slowing decomposition in the core of the bundle.

  • This can explain why some interior pieces might be more intact than the outer ones.

• Compression from the Rubber Band:

  • The rubber band would have held the bundle together tightly for a time, protecting the inner bills slightly.

  • However, over time, rubber decays, and the band either breaks or fuses with the outer bills, sometimes leaving distinct discoloration or causing distortion.

  • Bills on the outside of the bundle would have taken the brunt of environmental damage.

• Sediment Abrasion:

  • If the bundle was moved by floodwaters or a shifting riverbank, sand and silt could act like sandpaper, rounding and fraying the edges.

 

I then asked it if rolling along the bottom of the river could cause that damage....

 

Yes—rolling submerged along the bottom of a river could absolutely cause the rounded, scalloped edges you see in the image. In fact, that kind of mechanical erosion is one of the most plausible explanations for the distinctive damage pattern.

Here’s how that would work:

1. Constant Abrasion:

   • As the bundle tumbles or slides along the riverbed, it gets scraped by sand, gravel, and small rocks.

   • This slowly wears away the outer edges of the bills—just like how rocks in a river become smooth and rounded over time.

2. Edge-First Damage:

   • Since bills are thin and flexible, the edges are most exposed during tumbling.

   • Repeated folding, flapping, and scraping action causes the edges to fray, break, and wear away, creating those irregular, rounded contours.

3. Bundle Dynamics:

   • If the bills were still in a rubber band (even partially decayed), the bundle would roll and drag as a single unit, meaning the outer bills would absorb most of the damage.

   • Interior bills might remain more intact—especially if compressed.

4. Water Saturation and Fiber Breakdown:

   • Prolonged submersion softens the paper (cotton/linen blend), weakening its fibers.

   • This makes it more susceptible to tearing and abrasion, especially at the edges.

   • Combined with mechanical motion, this would produce rounded and lace-like damage—exactly what we see.

     How Long Would It Take?

   • It would likely take weeks to months of tumbling in a moderately strong river current to cause this degree of damage.

   • A single storm event or spring flood could also loosen a buried bundle and send it rolling.

[Nicholas Broughton 73]

On 6/28/2025 at 4:50 PM, georger said:

Interesting. I talked to Tom this afternoon. So far as I know, Tom has not changed his opinion. Tom does NOT believe  'the money rolled along the bottom of the River.'

Tom has your email and may reply to you, but Tom is very busy preparing for a trip etc.

Tom stressed today that the bills were not constrained or compressed in the middle - diatoms were able to enter the middle of the bundles -  bundles were compressed near the ends probably due to rubber bands at those locations which constrained diatom entry.

Has anyone done any tests with bank straps? Tom hasn't. Tom did not do any strap tests because at the time straps were not part of the money packaging scenario. I know one person who has started doing tests with tests in pond water but this is brand new. The straps have not dissolved and after a week dont appear to be dissolving.They have swelled very slightly. They have become opaque. I mentioned this to Tom today. I suggested to Tom today that if straps were part of the packaging perhaps by the time the Ingram encountered the money 'the straps or strap remains' might not have even been visible or identifiable! Tom laughed and remarked: 'that might be a distinct possibility'. Tom remarked that the Ingrams engaged in a serious cleaning effort and any remains of straps might have been washed away.

I would invite anyone who wants to do some strap tests, since straps are now a part of the Cooper discussion.

On a personal note I applaud Tom for making an effort to stay current and respond to people. Tom makes announcements and is staying current.

Tom talked about this at CC23. Here is a video of the presentation in case anyone missed it.
 

 

Edited June 30 by Nicholas Broughton

[olemisscub 545]

This was new to me. Royal Globe apparently told the FBI in 1976 that they hired a salvage team to search Lake Merwin. 

 

[FLYJACK 769]

3 minutes ago, olemisscub said:

This was new to me. Royal Globe apparently told the FBI in 1976 that they hired a salvage team to search Lake Merwin. 

 

I heard about this Merwin salvage operation years ago,,  they probably negotiated a reward if anything found vs being hired "per se"...

[georger 267]

3 hours ago, olemisscub said:

This was new to me. Royal Globe apparently told the FBI in 1976 that they hired a salvage team to search Lake Merwin. 

 

The guy with the private submarine. After technical problems he found and saw nothing ...

[olemisscub 545]

8 hours ago, FLYJACK said:

I heard about this Merwin salvage operation years ago,,  they probably negotiated a reward if anything found vs being hired "per se"...

To be clear, the 302 is what was new to me and also that Globe was keeping the FBI in the know about it. 

The salvage operation was written about pretty extensively in Himmy’s book. 

[olemisscub 545]

4 hours ago, georger said:

The guy with the private submarine. After technical problems he found and saw nothing ...

Yes, John Banks was his name. He ran a company called Electronic Exploration. Claimed he spent over 5,000 hours on the Cooper case, which is a laughable number, of course. 

[georger 267]

58 minutes ago, olemisscub said:

Yes, John Banks was his name. He ran a company called Electronic Exploration. Claimed he spent over 5,000 hours on the Cooper case, which is a laughable number, of course. 

Did he bill it ... ?

[olemisscub 545]

15 hours ago, georger said:

Did he bill it ... ?

He said he spent $15,000 on it. I assume his contract was commission only. 

[Kamkisky 11]

2 hours ago, olemisscub said:

He said he spent $15,000 on it. I assume his contract was commission only. 

Yup, 5,000 hours totaling 15k…comes to the modern equivalent of about $20 per hour to run a submarine company. Math don’t work. He’s full of it. 

[georger 267]

2 hours ago, Kamkisky said:

Yup, 5,000 hours totaling 15k…comes to the modern equivalent of about $20 per hour to run a submarine company. Math don’t work. He’s full of it. 

My impression is from what I recall, he was a serious person. Globe wanted their money back. He did a thorough search. Somebody seriously thought Cooper had dropped into Lake Merwin. That is where things fell apart ... no body, no parachute, no money.

BTW Ive been reading up on how/when sand is actually deposited at Tena Bar. Daily high tides deliver 'nothing'! Its unlikely the money could have been covered by that. If the money was covered by the same event that brought it to TBar, what event is that and when if high tides do cover what they deliver ? The premise is 'the event that brought the money to TBar had to also cover it from sight' ?

Edited Friday at 06:48 PM by georger

[Robert99 60]

2 hours ago, georger said:

My impression is from what I recall, he was a serious person. Globe wanted their money back. He did a thorough search. Somebody seriously thought Cooper had dropped into Lake Merwin. That is where things fell apart ... no body, no parachute, no money.

BTW Ive been reading up on how/when sand is actually deposited at Tena Bar. Daily high tides deliver 'nothing'! Its unlikely the money could have been covered by that. If the money was covered by the same event that brought it to TBar, what event is that and when if high tides do cover what they deliver ? The premise is 'the event that brought the money to TBar had to also cover it from sight' ?

George's premise can be expanded a bit.

Assume that the money deposited at Tena Bar was still in its original but damaged bag.  And assume that the damaged bag was still attached to Cooper.

Several months after the hijacking and being repeatedly soaked by the famous Oregon rains, Cooper's remains, and the bills would have lost all buoyancy and been moving downhill from wherever they originally landed.  That means they would be moving along the bottom.

Everything hangs up momentarily at some point on Tena Bar, several packets of bills come out of the damaged bag, then the rest of the items move on downstream into the Columbia River proper, then the Pacific, and are never seen again.

[olemisscub 545]

3 hours ago, georger said:

My impression is from what I recall, he was a serious person. Globe wanted their money back. He did a thorough search. Somebody seriously thought Cooper had dropped into Lake Merwin. That is where things fell apart ... no body, no parachute, no money.

Important for anyone who is reading this to remember that all of this was BEFORE Tena Bar

[monk71 3]

The real point about Lake Merwin is that Cooper didn't land there (probably no where near). Didn't someone report seeing a "parachute" on the lake, which turned out to be an overturned boat with an old man surviving many hours... on the very night of the hijacking?

[georger 267]

1 hour ago, monk71 said:

The real point about Lake Merwin is that Cooper didn't land there (probably no where near). Didn't someone report seeing a "parachute" on the lake, which turned out to be an overturned boat with an old man surviving many hours... on the very night of the hijacking?

I think thats exactly right...

[georger 267]

2 hours ago, Robert99 said:

George's premise can be expanded a bit.

Assume that the money deposited at Tena Bar was still in its original but damaged bag.  And assume that the damaged bag was still attached to Cooper.

Several months after the hijacking and being repeatedly soaked by the famous Oregon rains, Cooper's remains, and the bills would have lost all buoyancy and been moving downhill from wherever they originally landed.  That means they would be moving along the bottom.

Everything hangs up momentarily at some point on Tena Bar, several packets of bills come out of the damaged bag, then the rest of the items move on downstream into the Columbia River proper, then the Pacific, and are never seen again.

any approximate dates in this theory ?

[FLYJACK 769]

Cooper was not a Cini copycat.

Cooper did not land in the Columbia, he jumped about 8:11 within the half mile error along the so called "FBI" accepted flight path.

Edited Saturday at 12:39 AM by FLYJACK

[monk71 3]

4 hours ago, FLYJACK said:

Cooper was not a Cini copycat.

OK, I'll bite. I know we are discussing opinions, but how could you possibly know with any certainty what did not influence Cooper?

FWIW, I see the Cini event as just one in a series of potential ideas (bomb plane films, prominent bomb threats, parachute cartoons, etc.) leading up to Cooper's flight. Cini may have been a tipping point... being just 11 days before.

[Robert99 60]

5 hours ago, georger said:

any approximate dates in this theory ?

There is no way to date this.  It assumes that Cooper was a no-pull and died in the jump. 

The Western Flight Path (or whatever you want to call it) to bypass Portland on the west side would have passed almost directly over Tena Bar.  Specifically, the WFP was almost straight down the center of the Columbia River for several miles.

Due to the winds aloft being from the southwest at all altitudes up to 10,000 feet and of about 30 knots velocity, Cooper would have travelled about 1000 feet to the northeast during a free fall which was between about 40 to 60 seconds. 

And he would have landed on solid ground but very close to the river's eastern side.  He would have also had to land west of the Northwest Lower River Road (which is built on top of a levee) in order to enter the Columbia in the area of Tena Bar.

FWIW, the late Dr. Meyer Louie and I went through the dairy runoff settling pond (which is just over the bank from Tena Bar) about 10 years ago with metal detectors and didn't find a single thing, The detector's manufacturer indicated that they should be able to find anything up to two or three feet beneath the sand under the conditions we experienced.

Additionally, local fishermen who were longtime visitors to Tena Bar told us that they had never seen the river high enough to flood the settling pond or anything from the settling pond passing into the river.

All of this was discussed here in much more detail 10 to 15 years ago.

To respond here to FlyJack's post of a few minutes ago, the jump time of 8:11 PM PST has been the accepted jump time from day one which was 1971.  This is not a new revelation.

Further, I reject the FBI's proposed flight path out of hand.  No airline crew would fly like that under the hijacking circumstances.

Also, the FBI's FOIA unit has gone out of their way to ensure that the actual transcripts of the communications between the airliner and the Seattle ATC are not released.  And those transcripts are in the public domain. 

  

Edited Saturday at 05:27 AM by Robert99

[georger 267]

2 hours ago, Robert99 said:

There is no way to date this.  It assumes that Cooper was a no-pull and died in the jump. 

The Western Flight Path (or whatever you want to call it) to bypass Portland on the west side would have passed almost directly over Tena Bar.  Specifically, the WFP was almost straight down the center of the Columbia River for several miles.

Due to the winds aloft being from the southwest at all altitudes up to 10,000 feet and of about 30 knots velocity, Cooper would have travelled about 1000 feet to the northeast during a free fall which was between about 40 to 60 seconds. 

And he would have landed on solid ground but very close to the river's eastern side.  He would have also had to land west of the Northwest Lower River Road (which is built on top of a levee) in order to enter the Columbia in the area of Tena Bar.

FWIW, the late Dr. Meyer Louie and I went through the dairy runoff settling pond (which is just over the bank from Tena Bar) about 10 years ago with metal detectors and didn't find a single thing, The detector's manufacturer indicated that they should be able to find anything up to two or three feet beneath the sand under the conditions we experienced.

Additionally, local fishermen who were longtime visitors to Tena Bar told us that they had never seen the river high enough to flood the settling pond or anything from the settling pond passing into the river.

All of this was discussed here in much more detail 10 to 15 years ago.

To respond here to FlyJack's post of a few minutes ago, the jump time of 8:11 PM PST has been the accepted jump time from day one which was 1971.  This is not a new revelation.

Further, I reject the FBI's proposed flight path out of hand.  No airline crew would fly like that under the hijacking circumstances.

Also, the FBI's FOIA unit has gone out of their way to ensure that the actual transcripts of the communications between the airliner and the Seattle ATC are not released.  And those transcripts are in the public domain. 

  

Dr. Meyer Louie and I went through the dairy runoff settling pond (which is just over the bank from Tena Bar) about 10 years ago with metal detectors

Meyer told me about this, at length. Meyer was a dedicated researcher ......... I still have three boxes of sand he collected! I keep them almost as a memorial.

FWIW Meyer did extensive searching at the wing dam north of Tena Bar.

I know you and Meyer worked closely together. Meyer told me he enjoyed every moment working with you. He had great respect for you.

Edited Saturday at 08:15 AM by georger

[FLYJACK 769]

8 hours ago, Robert99 said:

To respond here to FlyJack's post of a few minutes ago, the jump time of 8:11 PM PST has been the accepted jump time from day one which was 1971.  This is not a new revelation.

Further, I reject the FBI's proposed flight path out of hand.  No airline crew would fly like that under the hijacking circumstances.

Also, the FBI's FOIA unit has gone out of their way to ensure that the actual transcripts of the communications between the airliner and the Seattle ATC are not released.  And those transcripts are in the public domain. 

  

The 8:11 time has been overwhelmed by people moving the jump zone further south... Cooper jumped about 8:11.

You gave it your best shot but the Western Flight path has not panned out, it is based on your own assumptions. The evidence supports the "FBI" accepted path.

 

[FLYJACK 769]

8 hours ago, monk71 said:

OK, I'll bite. I know we are discussing opinions, but how could you possibly know with any certainty what did not influence Cooper?

FWIW, I see the Cini event as just one in a series of potential ideas (bomb plane films, prominent bomb threats, parachute cartoons, etc.) leading up to Cooper's flight. Cini may have been a tipping point... being just 11 days before.

There is no evidence whatsoever..

Cini's hijacking was a disaster.. 

The idea of a "ransom" parachute escape existed well before Cini. FACT.

classic... POST HOC ERGO PROMPTER HOC

[Robert99 60]

10 hours ago, georger said:

Dr. Meyer Louie and I went through the dairy runoff settling pond (which is just over the bank from Tena Bar) about 10 years ago with metal detectors

Meyer told me about this, at length. Meyer was a dedicated researcher ......... I still have three boxes of sand he collected! I keep them almost as a memorial.

FWIW Meyer did extensive searching at the wing dam north of Tena Bar.

I know you and Meyer worked closely together. Meyer told me he enjoyed every moment working with you. He had great respect for you.

Meyer was a genuinely good and decent man.

[CooperNWO305 158]

Some melodrama. This was off one of Eric’s post about the First Amendment.  The replies came from some true American heroes. Here’s one. William Smith’s daughter and her Facebook friends like Lisa B, neither of whom add anything to the case except drama. They support the First Amendment as long as it’s not me using it. Like I’m Ted Bundy or something. :). Gotta laugh. Lisa wants to out me, like I’m some unknown mysterious person. Drama. Complaining. Exaggerating. Attention seeking. No one knows or cares about a guy named Smith whose family names are all different now. But if it makes her feel better to post, have at it. 

Forgot to add. Nicky make sure you screen shot and send this to her.  You having such good character according to Mark M.

 

 

Edited Saturday at 08:30 PM by CooperNWO305

[monk71 3]

12 hours ago, FLYJACK said:

The idea of a "ransom" parachute escape existed well before Cini. FACT.

Please explain and/or cite sources.