DB Cooper

[Kamkisky 13]

32 minutes ago, olemisscub said:

When it comes to Tena Bar, I'm usually Mr. "No Hablo Ingles", but I occasionally can get interested. 

Do you have any examples of tumbling in water having such an effect? Would like to see that.

Also, I'd always assumed that the shards were the remnants of whatever flaked off the bills that hadn't disintegrated yet. If tumbling caused the removal of the edges, then shouldn't those edges be on the river bottom?

That's my only concern with your theory. Explain the shards and provide an example of what tumbling on a river bottom does. 

Yesterday I made a connection I don’t think has ever been made. Cooper’ing is fun. DMs.  
 

Shards are the rotten edges, what else could they be.  

[FLYJACK 771]

1 hour ago, olemisscub said:

When it comes to Tena Bar, I'm usually Mr. "No Hablo Ingles", but I occasionally can get interested. 

Do you have any examples of tumbling in water having such an effect? Would like to see that.

Also, I'd always assumed that the shards were the remnants of whatever flaked off the bills that hadn't disintegrated yet. If tumbling caused the removal of the edges, then shouldn't those edges be on the river bottom?

That's my only concern with your theory. Explain the shards and provide an example of what tumbling on a river bottom does. 

First, the shards I have found that are large enough to discern are from the middle of the bills.. not the outer edges. 

I have not found any examples of tumbling money.. I tried to come with a test but I just can't see how it can be done properly to replicate the conditions and recover the money.

The money sinks but it still has buoyancy like many things other than heavy items like rocks.. I have found images of bills suspended just above the bottom of water. It is reasonable to conclude that the current can roll the money along the bottom. The TBAR section of the Columbia is very flat and sandy with almost no snags.

and all the images of buried money I have found do not have symmetrical damage like TBAR. The damage is very random...  nothing like TBAR's uniform erosion.

Also, circulated currency is riddled with bacteria.. even if sand is sterile, the money already had bacteria on it.

It is absurd that the uniformly rounded edges are from bacteria.. There was some bacteria damage on the bills but it is random. Further, why did the bills get rounded only around the outside and NOT through the middle of the stack,,, answer, the erosion was not in situ.

Internal fragments... these are different pieces

Edited June 22 by FLYJACK

[FLYJACK 771]

19 minutes ago, Kamkisky said:

Yesterday I made a connection I don’t think has ever been made. Cooper’ing is fun. DMs.  
 

Shards are the rotten edges, what else could they be.  

The top and bottom bills were breaking up,, some were missing.

That is clear in images.

[georger 268]

how do things decompose on beaches of the columbia river

On the beaches of the Columbia River, organic materials—such as dead plants, animals, algae, and driftwood—decompose through a combination of physical, chemical, and biological processes, much like in other coastal environments

: Wave action, wind, and tidal forces physically break down organic matter into smaller particles, making them more accessible to decomposers

·  : Bacteria and fungi are the primary decomposers. They break down dead organic material, releasing nutrients back into the sand and water, which supports new plant and microbial growth

·  . Invertebrates like sand fleas, nematodes, and other small beach organisms may also contribute by consuming detritus.

·  : Sunlight (UV radiation) and saltwater exposure help degrade organic compounds, sometimes before microbes can fully process them

·  : The nutrients released during decomposition are recycled into the beach ecosystem, supporting the food web. This is especially important in prograding (expanding) beaches like those near the Columbia River, where sediment and organic matter are constantly being deposited and redistributed

: The Columbia River is a major source of sediment for local beaches, which influences how organic matter is buried and decomposed

·  : Unlike many eroding coastlines, Columbia River beaches tend to build outward, so organic material may be buried quickly, slowing decomposition and sometimes preserving it in the sediment

·  : Seasonal storms, river flow, and tidal cycles can resuspend and redistribute organic matter, exposing it to air, water, and decomposers at different rates

: When phytoplankton and other river-borne organic matter reach saltwater at the river mouth, they often die and decompose rapidly. This process can consume oxygen and contribute to low-oxygen (hypoxic) or dead zones in nearshore waters

·  : The dynamic nature of the Columbia River mouth—with shifting sands, strong currents, and frequent storms—means decomposition rates and pathways can vary widely across the beach and over time

In summary, decomposition on Columbia River beaches is driven by a mix of wave and wind action, microbial activity, and chemical degradation. The unique sediment dynamics and high organic input from the river influence both the speed and pathways of decomposition in this environment.

PerplexityAI

[georger 268]

how did the Cooper money decompose on Tena Bar

 

The decomposition of the D.B. Cooper ransom money found on Tena Bar is a subject of speculation and forensic interest. The money discovered by Brian Ingram in 1980 consisted of three bundles of twenty-dollar bills, totaling $5,800, identified by their serial numbers as part of the original ransom

. The bills were partially decomposed around the edges, but still had intact rubber bands, suggesting a degree of preservation despite exposure

Several factors likely contributed to the decomposition of the money:

Environmental Exposure: The money was found buried under a shallow layer of sand near the Columbia River. Over nearly nine years, the bills would have been subjected to cycles of moisture, temperature changes, and microbial activity, which can cause paper currency to break down, especially at the edges

·  Water and Sand Interaction: The location near the river means the money could have been periodically submerged or exposed to damp sand, leading to partial decomposition and the characteristic "rounded" or worn edges observed

·  Physical Abrasion: Some theories suggest the money may have been tumbled or abraded by natural forces, such as river currents or dredging activity, which could account for the rounded corners and partial decomposition

The fact that the rubber bands remained intact is notable, as they might have protected the central portions of the bundles from full decomposition, while the exposed edges deteriorated more rapidly

In summary, the Cooper money decomposed on Tena Bar primarily due to prolonged exposure to moist sand, river water, and environmental factors including bacteria and fungi, with the edges degrading while the central portions— perhaps shielded by the rubber bands—remained more intact

PerplexityAI

Edited June 22 by georger

[Robert99 60]

2 hours ago, georger said:

how did the Cooper money decompose on Tena Bar

 

The decomposition of the D.B. Cooper ransom money found on Tena Bar is a subject of speculation and forensic interest. The money discovered by Brian Ingram in 1980 consisted of three bundles of twenty-dollar bills, totaling $5,800, identified by their serial numbers as part of the original ransom

. The bills were partially decomposed around the edges, but still had intact rubber bands, suggesting a degree of preservation despite exposure

Several factors likely contributed to the decomposition of the money:

Environmental Exposure: The money was found buried under a shallow layer of sand near the Columbia River. Over nearly nine years, the bills would have been subjected to cycles of moisture, temperature changes, and microbial activity, which can cause paper currency to break down, especially at the edges

·  Water and Sand Interaction: The location near the river means the money could have been periodically submerged or exposed to damp sand, leading to partial decomposition and the characteristic "rounded" or worn edges observed

·  Physical Abrasion: Some theories suggest the money may have been tumbled or abraded by natural forces, such as river currents or dredging activity, which could account for the rounded corners and partial decomposition

The fact that the rubber bands remained intact is notable, as they might have protected the central portions of the bundles from full decomposition, while the exposed edges deteriorated more rapidly

In summary, the Cooper money decomposed on Tena Bar primarily due to prolonged exposure to moist sand, river water, and environmental factors including bacteria and fungi, with the edges degrading while the central portions— perhaps shielded by the rubber bands—remained more intact

PerplexityAI

Let me point out some additional things that support Georger's comments above.

Tena Bar is washed by water flow that comes down the narrow channel between Caterpillar Island and the Washington mainland.  The outlet from this channel is a very short distance upstream from Tena Bar.

There is a marina in that channel and a number of people live on their boats (remember Amazon?) in that channel.  It is safe to assume that there is some biological material in the water that exits that channel and washes Tena Bar.

Anyone interested in testing their theory about the missing shards from the money that was found should do the following.  Take some genuine currency and place it in a container until it is thoroughly soaked then remove it and place it in direct sunlight until it is completely dry.  Repeat this about 50 times and then note what is missing from the original bills.

To put it another way, the bills don't have to roll on the river bottom to lose the shards.

 

[FLYJACK 771]

2 hours ago, georger said:

how did the Cooper money decompose on Tena Bar

 

The decomposition of the D.B. Cooper ransom money found on Tena Bar is a subject of speculation and forensic interest. The money discovered by Brian Ingram in 1980 consisted of three bundles of twenty-dollar bills, totaling $5,800, identified by their serial numbers as part of the original ransom

. The bills were partially decomposed around the edges, but still had intact rubber bands, suggesting a degree of preservation despite exposure

Several factors likely contributed to the decomposition of the money:

Environmental Exposure: The money was found buried under a shallow layer of sand near the Columbia River. Over nearly nine years, the bills would have been subjected to cycles of moisture, temperature changes, and microbial activity, which can cause paper currency to break down, especially at the edges

·  Water and Sand Interaction: The location near the river means the money could have been periodically submerged or exposed to damp sand, leading to partial decomposition and the characteristic "rounded" or worn edges observed

·  Physical Abrasion: Some theories suggest the money may have been tumbled or abraded by natural forces, such as river currents or dredging activity, which could account for the rounded corners and partial decomposition

The fact that the rubber bands remained intact is notable, as they might have protected the central portions of the bundles from full decomposition, while the exposed edges deteriorated more rapidly

In summary, the Cooper money decomposed on Tena Bar primarily due to prolonged exposure to moist sand, river water, and environmental factors including bacteria and fungi, with the edges degrading while the central portions— perhaps shielded by the rubber bands—remained more intact

PerplexityAI

Good god,, what a load of garbage...

You are now using AI to think for you.. the interactive equivalent of wikipedia.

What a joke.

[georger 268]

57 minutes ago, Robert99 said:

Let me point out some additional things that support Georger's comments above.

Tena Bar is washed by water flow that comes down the narrow channel between Caterpillar Island and the Washington mainland.  The outlet from this channel is a very short distance upstream from Tena Bar.

There is a marina in that channel and a number of people live on their boats (remember Amazon?) in that channel.  It is safe to assume that there is some biological material in the water that exits that channel and washes Tena Bar.

Anyone interested in testing their theory about the missing shards from the money that was found should do the following.  Take some genuine currency and place it in a container until it is thoroughly soaked then remove it and place it in direct sunlight until it is completely dry.  Repeat this about 50 times and then note what is missing from the original bills.

To put it another way, the bills don't have to roll on the river bottom to lose the shards.

 

agree ... totally. One mystery to me is why nobody ever saw or found money there before with all of the hundreds of people that frequent that area. Maybe tides kept it constantly buried. Then a couple of kids have to be turning up sand - in just the right place - and money is exposed almost as a miracle. At length Tosaw rototills the whole beach (almost) and finds nothing! Not even more shards in the area of the Ingram find. Something does not add up. Maybe this is one more example of how random nature can be but if that is the case, something has to support that precise outcome. A date, a specific event which leaves only one specific outcome of only a few options for location and circumstances of placement, ... something has to set this all in motion leaving specific options for an outcome  followed by a kid that opens Pandora's box within just the right time frame before everything is gone!  I have always been suspicious of a possible connection between Caterpillar Island and money found a stone's throw away with a hydrological connection between these two sites!  We discussed this briefly years ago.   

99 I agree with everything you've brought up.

Did Cooper know this area ?

I wish Tom would give his 2cents!

Edited June 22 by georger

[FLYJACK 771]

29 minutes ago, Robert99 said:

Let me point out some additional things that support Georger's comments above.

Tena Bar is washed by water flow that comes down the narrow channel between Caterpillar Island and the Washington mainland.  The outlet from this channel is a very short distance upstream from Tena Bar.

There is a marina in that channel and a number of people live on their boats (remember Amazon?) in that channel.  It is safe to assume that there is some biological material in the water that exits that channel and washes Tena Bar.

Anyone interested in testing their theory about the missing shards from the money that was found should do the following.  Take some genuine currency and place it in a container until it is thoroughly soaked then remove it and place it in direct sunlight until it is completely dry.  Repeat this about 50 times and then note what is missing from the original bills.

To put it another way, the bills don't have to roll on the river bottom to lose the shards.

 

Georger is using AI... a joke in itself.

The only counter argument to the rolling theory is the wet dry cycle sand abrasion..

Problem is it fails.

The TBAR money was rounded off at both ends in a uniform symmetrical shape. The abrasion was only around the outside of bills, not through the top/bottom..

You'd expect the erosion to be uniform from all sides (x, y, z axis) it wasn't.

The shape is inconsistent with in situ erosion and is consistent with tumbling.. the the conclusion of the Palmer report..

No identifiable shards were from the outside of the bills,, the eroded area.

Edited June 22 by FLYJACK

[georger 268]

41 minutes ago, FLYJACK said:

Georger is using AI... a joke in itself.

The only counter argument to the rolling theory is the wet dry cycle sand abrasion..

Problem is it fails.

The TBAR money was rounded off at both ends in a uniform symmetrical shape. The abrasion was only around the outside of bills, not through the top/bottom..

You'd expect the erosion to be uniform from all sides (x, y, z axis) it wasn't.

The shape is inconsistent with in situ erosion and is consistent with tumbling.. the the conclusion of the Palmer report..

No identifiable shards were from the outside of the bills,, the eroded area.

Sure. My assumption continues to be that the Cooper money was subject to the same forces and conditions available at Tena Bar and many sand bars of most rivers ... no special history or gymnastics required. It is unfortunate that some agent suggested 'money rolling-tumbling' across the abrassive? bottom of the river' as a determining factor in the Cooper money's history. So ... set up an experiment and demonstrate this for the rest of us that can't see through walls and leap tall buildings ...

You may be correct. You may also be full of crap.  

Edited June 22 by georger

[FLYJACK 771]

1 hour ago, georger said:

Sure. My assumption continues to be that the Cooper money was subject to the same forces and conditions available at Tena Bar and many sand bars of most rivers ... no special history or gymnastics required. It is unfortunate that some agent suggested 'money rolling-tumbling' across the abrassive? bottom of the river' as a determining factor in the Cooper money's history. So ... set up an experiment and demonstrate this for the rest of us that can't see through walls and leap tall buildings ...

You may be correct. You may also be full of crap.  

Looks like we are making progress.. in a few years you'll be fully onboard.

 

What agent? It is in the Palmer report,, FWW, I came up with it before the Palmer report was released. I posted it way back on Shutter's site. It is just obvious, the money was found at the high water line of a wide River, most likely it came from the River.. if it came from the River it likely rolled along the bottom.. even TK suggested it. Not hard.

I have tried to figure out an experiment but can't see it being doable.. it is too difficult to replicate and recover the money.

One thing to try is place a bundle with two bands in water and when it sinks test how much current is needed to move it. 

The money on TBAR would be subject to the conditions in situ,, they just don't explain the unique erosion pattern. The ends would be tapered like a football... the frags are not from the outer area.  

There is no better theory...

Money sinks... but still has buoyancy..

Only one bill and no current.

 

 

Edited June 23 by FLYJACK

[georger 268]

7 hours ago, FLYJACK said:

Looks like we are making progress.. in a few years you'll be fully onboard.

 

What agent? It is in the Palmer report,, FWW, I came up with it before the Palmer report was released. I posted it way back on Shutter's site. It is just obvious, the money was found at the high water line of a wide River, most likely it came from the River.. if it came from the River it likely rolled along the bottom.. even TK suggested it. Not hard.

I have tried to figure out an experiment but can't see it being doable.. it is too difficult to replicate and recover the money.

One thing to try is place a bundle with two bands in water and when it sinks test how much current is needed to move it. 

The money on TBAR would be subject to the conditions in situ,, they just don't explain the unique erosion pattern. The ends would be tapered like a football... the frags are not from the outer area.  

There is no better theory...

Money sinks... but still has buoyancy..

Only one bill and no current.

 

 

What agent? It is in the Palmer report, ..................

Palmer never wrote a report, is what we were told. Palmer gave an oral presentation and agents asked a few questions. A secretary took notes and wrote it up.

The relevant passages from the report are:

*Based on the condition of the money through observation, Professor PALMER advised that the money was probably washed into the location where it was found by natural river flow and was probably placed at the location of Tena Bar during the last rise in the Columbia River in the past two or three months. (Nov 1979 – Jan 1980)

Professor PALMER based this belief on three facts.

*The first fact being that the money was rounded off on the corners, which would indicate a rolling motion and would indicate the flow of the river.

*The second fact was that the money was found in the surface layer of the upper reworked beach sand.

*The third fact was that the distribution of the money was in this surface layer only, and none was found to be in the post dredging sand.  (contradicted by agents)

 

That's all there is.

Edited June 23 by georger

[FLYJACK 771]

8 hours ago, georger said:

What agent? It is in the Palmer report, ..................

Palmer never wrote a report, is what we were told. Palmer gave an oral presentation and agents asked a few questions. A secretary took notes and wrote it up.

The relevant passages from the report are:

*Based on the condition of the money through observation, Professor PALMER advised that the money was probably washed into the location where it was found by natural river flow and was probably placed at the location of Tena Bar during the last rise in the Columbia River in the past two or three months. (Nov 1979 – Jan 1980)

Professor PALMER based this belief on three facts.

*The first fact being that the money was rounded off on the corners, which would indicate a rolling motion and would indicate the flow of the river.

*The second fact was that the money was found in the surface layer of the upper reworked beach sand.

*The third fact was that the distribution of the money was in this surface layer only, and none was found to be in the post dredging sand.  (contradicted by agents)

 

That's all there is.

Funny, it is called the Palmer Report because it is his report of his findings,,

It is his 302.

The "rolling" came from Palmer not an agent.

You falsely claimed it unfortunately came from an agent..

It is difficult to figure things out when you don't have the facts right.

[FLYJACK 771]

Some of it was twisted.

The twisting appears to be post erosion,, 

The abrasive erosion is around the edge, not down through.

If the vast majority of the erosion was from rolling that indicates the money arrived closer to the find rather than the hijacking.

Edited June 23 by FLYJACK

[georger 268]

3 hours ago, FLYJACK said:

Funny, it is called the Palmer Report because it is his report of his findings,,

It is his 302.

The "rolling" came from Palmer not an agent.

You falsely claimed it unfortunately came from an agent..

It is difficult to figure things out when you don't have the facts right.

Claim whatever you want. You didnt even know Palmer never submitted a written report but gave an oral presentation, in which there was apparently dialogue  between Palmer and several agents questioning his conclusions. 

As usual you know more than anyone else. You are impossible to have any dialogue with. You attack everyone and everything. From now on you can talk with yourself!  

[FLYJACK 771]

4 minutes ago, georger said:

Claim whatever you want. You didnt even know Palmer never submitted a written report but gave an oral presentation, in which there was apparently dialogue  between Palmer and several agents questioning his conclusions. 

As usual you know more than anyone else. You are impossible to have any dialogue with. You attack everyone and everything. From now on you can talk with yourself!  

Great,,  you haven't added anything in a decade anyway... you twist, lie and use ridicule as an argument. You claimed it was refuted by TK,, it wasn't, he even suggested it.

You claimed it was nonsense and laughable... without any analysis.

Why, you have a personal bias and agenda.

 

[georger 268]

Your accusatory style is impossible to work with or even be around ... that is the consensus of many people and it is unnecessary. Sooner or later you attack and demean everyone! You ride this forum and The Cooper case like it was your personal goat!  Get a life!

Edited June 23 by georger

[FLYJACK 771]

29 minutes ago, georger said:

Your accusatory style is impossible to work with or even be around ... that is the consensus of many people and it is unnecessary. Sooner or later you attack and demean everyone! You ride this forum and The Cooper case like it was your personal goat!  Get a life!

I thought you were done discussing anything with me..

[c99acer 8]

4 hours ago, FLYJACK said:

Some of it was twisted.

The twisting appears to be post erosion,, 

The abrasive erosion is around the edge, not down through.

If the vast majority of the erosion was from rolling that indicates the money arrived closer to the find rather than the hijacking.

You told me quite a few weeks ago that the rubber bands were "intact". Were they twisted in the same fashion as these sub-packets? Furthermore, wouldn't the rubber bands be compromised with rolling and tumbling action that causes the rest of the bill to disintegrate? OR - did someone put the bands on after all the rolling and tumbling? 

[georger 268]

10 minutes ago, c99acer said:

You told me quite a few weeks ago that the rubber bands were "intact". Were they twisted in the same fashion as these sub-packets? Furthermore, wouldn't the rubber bands be compromised with rolling and tumbling action that causes the rest of the bill to disintegrate? OR - did someone put the bands on after all the rolling and tumbling? 

Only FJ knows. Everyone and everything else is irrelevant. Good luck.

[FLYJACK 771]

41 minutes ago, c99acer said:

You told me quite a few weeks ago that the rubber bands were "intact". Were they twisted in the same fashion as these sub-packets? Furthermore, wouldn't the rubber bands be compromised with rolling and tumbling action that causes the rest of the bill to disintegrate? OR - did someone put the bands on after all the rolling and tumbling? 

Rubber bands aren't compromised the same as water saturated money is... these are completely different substances. The paper bands would have been torn off.

I have been trying to find how abrasive the sand is there.. 

River sand is generally not the most abrasive sand.. but can range. 

Abrasive or sharp sand comes from a quarry.

No, clearly the bands were not replaced.

They were not found "intact"...

The rounding is probably both tumbling impact and abrasion.  Impact would not affect the rubber bands.

 

Edited June 23 by FLYJACK

[olemisscub 547]

11 hours ago, FLYJACK said:

 

The rounding is probably both tumbling impact and abrasion.  Impact would not affect the rubber bands.

 

This is a thought I just had. Brian found 3 individual packets presumably from a single bundle.

So this rolling along the bottom action is violent enough to sheer 75% or more of the money away yet not violent enough to separate the packets from the bundle. Rubber bands aren’t vice grips. Packets can shift easily within a bundle, especially when probably 75% or more of the bill has been removed.

I’m still of the opinion that it got there by natural means, but I just can’t buy into the fact that this money disintegrated to this extent yet remained together BEFORE coming to rest. It makes so much more sense that they were already at rest when the disintegration began to occur.

Any sort of violent action undertaken against a bundle can easily cause the packets to shift. If tumbling is violent enough to sheer off the edges to this extent then it would probably be violent enough to separate the packets from the bundle.

I had totally forgotten that I did this several years ago already. I took a bundle of three packets, double rubber banded on each side, as their standard practice was, then I rolled it into a wall. The packets were shifting pretty easily.

Seriously, look how much of the bill is left. Rubber bands aren’t gonna hold packets together when 1) violence is the cause of the disintegration, and 2) that’s all that is left of the bills BEFORE it comes to rest. 

I believe the bills were already at rest when whatever process caused them to disintegrate occurred, otherwise I just can't see the packets staying so close together throughout all of this supposed rolling violence. 

 

Video.mov

 

Edited June 24 by olemisscub

[georger 268]

2 hours ago, olemisscub said:

This is a thought I just had. Brian found 3 individual packets presumably from a single bundle.

So this rolling along the bottom action is violent enough to sheer 75% or more of the money away yet not violent enough to separate the packets from the bundle. Rubber bands aren’t vice grips. Packets can shift easily within a bundle, especially when probably 75% or more of the bill has been removed.

I’m still of the opinion that it got there by natural means, but I just can’t buy into the fact that this money disintegrated to this extent yet remained together BEFORE coming to rest. It makes so much more sense that they were already at rest when the disintegration began to occur.

Any sort of violent action undertaken against a bundle can easily cause the packets to shift. If tumbling is violent enough to sheer off the edges to this extent then it would probably be violent enough to separate the packets from the bundle.

I had totally forgotten that I did this several years ago already. I took a bundle of three packets, double rubber banded on each side, as their standard practice was, then I rolled it into a wall. The packets were shifting pretty easily.

Seriously, look how much of the bill is left. Rubber bands aren’t gonna hold packets together when 1) violence is the cause of the disintegration, and 2) that’s all that is left of the bills BEFORE it comes to rest. 

I believe the bills were already at rest when whatever process caused them to disintegrate occurred, otherwise I just can't see the packets staying so close together throughout all of this supposed rolling violence. 

 

Video.mov 293.47 kB · 0 downloads

 

Seriously, look how much of the bill is left. Rubber bands aren’t gonna hold packets together when 1) violence is the cause of the disintegration, and 2) that’s all that is left of the bills BEFORE it comes to rest. I believe the bills were already at rest when whatever process caused them to disintegrate occurred, otherwise I just can't see the packets staying so close together throughout all of this supposed rolling violence. 

You are correct. Any force like the Columbia would change the alignment of the contents of the bundles and the integrity of any rubber bands holding anything together! We are only talking about a few seriously stretched rubber bands. Neither paper straps or multiple bands will hold the bundles together -  The alignment of the Ingram bills may be key to the process that delivered the money and rules out forces as great as the Columbia. That alignment is crucial. Tom examined the alignment - and he found slight off axis tilting of several bills - see attached. That tilting could have happened with the bundles partially locked in at the Ingram site. 

It is unfortunate the rolling idea ever got started. Several agents expressed ideas that never made it into the Palmer report. One of those ideas was that the Cooper money had ridden the Columbia still housed in the money bag until bundles were released nearby to Tena Bar, with the rest of the money going out to sea!  There was a suggestion that the money was delivered to TBar in ice ... There has never been any shortage of ideas when it comes to the Cooper money.

The fact the Ingram bundles stayed together at all may limit the forces involved and the options of delivery. 

Lastly: a sample of a rubber band from the Ingram bills does not exist, except perhaps in the Antiquities Section of the old FBI Lab in Washington DC where the Ingram bills were separated and examined for mineralogy etc. Reports Q58, 59 etc. If pieces of those old deteriorated bands could be found and examined that might yield some valuable information. Since these Alliance bank bands lost most of their elasticity (holding power) in no more than a year after given to Cooper then any rolling of bills by forces of water with bands holding bundles together, had to have occurred almost immediately after the hijacking, which puts a date of their arrival on Tena Bar as say December 1971 ? Im just tossing out the idea ... Tom has always maintained the Ingram find was deposited at TBar in late 71 or early 72!   

Edited June 24 by georger

[FLYJACK 771]

6 hours ago, olemisscub said:

This is a thought I just had. Brian found 3 individual packets presumably from a single bundle.

So this rolling along the bottom action is violent enough to sheer 75% or more of the money away yet not violent enough to separate the packets from the bundle. Rubber bands aren’t vice grips. Packets can shift easily within a bundle, especially when probably 75% or more of the bill has been removed.

I’m still of the opinion that it got there by natural means, but I just can’t buy into the fact that this money disintegrated to this extent yet remained together BEFORE coming to rest. It makes so much more sense that they were already at rest when the disintegration began to occur.

Any sort of violent action undertaken against a bundle can easily cause the packets to shift. If tumbling is violent enough to sheer off the edges to this extent then it would probably be violent enough to separate the packets from the bundle.

I had totally forgotten that I did this several years ago already. I took a bundle of three packets, double rubber banded on each side, as their standard practice was, then I rolled it into a wall. The packets were shifting pretty easily.

Seriously, look how much of the bill is left. Rubber bands aren’t gonna hold packets together when 1) violence is the cause of the disintegration, and 2) that’s all that is left of the bills BEFORE it comes to rest. 

I believe the bills were already at rest when whatever process caused them to disintegrate occurred, otherwise I just can't see the packets staying so close together throughout all of this supposed rolling violence. 

 

Video.mov 293.47 kB · 1 download

 

Both Tom Kaye and Palmer suggested rolling in the Columbia River. Palmer indicated the erosion was from rolling.. Tom suggested the shifting was incurred during rolling but felt that 20 miles was too far.. I agree.. Maybe 2-6 miles. We don't know the forces involved.. the current averaged 2-3 mph back then, slightly less now. A tumbling or rolling impact would be a combination of impact and abrasion. Impacts would not affect the rubber bands. Remember the bundle had buoyancy in the water, not like tossing it on the ground.

The bill shown looks like it has degraded well beyond the condition of the find, probably from the separation process.. it also has what looks like testing stains.. that bill is not a good representation for erosion. That bill and many others have post find degradation or handling damage when separated.

You need at look at the 12 piles of 3 packets. 

 

The problem with on situ erosion is the pattern, it doesn't work..

Facing the bill the left and right sides are eroded symmetrically and more than the top and bottom. The outer edges are eroded not through the stack. If it was eroded in situ you expect the erosion to be from all axis, it isn't. Look at the ends, the erosion is not on the z axis.. it is only on the x and y axis and symmetrical.. that is from rolling end over end. Erosion in situ is not as symmetric, it is more random and from all axis..

I measured the erosion on the sides vs the top/bottom and it isn't close, not percentage or volume. You'd expect equal volume for abrasion and equal percentage for wet/dry cycles.

These bills do not match in situ erosion.. clearly there would be some.. as Palmer indicated it matches a rolling/tumbling.. even TK mentioned it.

and from the 10000 ft level, the money was found at the high water mark of a River, the most likely source is the River..

TK.. because the money sinks Tom didn't explore the money arriving while the River level was above the money spot.

"The float test demonstrated that a bundle of bills will only float for a matter of minutes before submerging if there is any agitation in the water. Before sinking, the bills fan out as in Figure 4. Placing this in context with various theories, a rocky bottom stream like the Washougal River would provide continuous obstacles to bundles moving down stream along the bottom. The Columbia River has a sandy bottom which may allow movement of bundles when the flow rate is high enough. Bundles of money 'floating' on to a beach like Tena Bar has a low probability and would require strong enough water flow to push the bundles on to the beach." TK

The fanning may be from tumbling but 20 miles is too far... I agree, maybe 2-6 miles.

"As demonstrated in testing, the bundles of money fan out individually when under water, while a wet bundle out of the water tends to stick together like a brick. It is theorized that fanned out bundles should become mis-aligned while tumbling along the river bottom over time. While it is impossible to know at this time exactly how the bills were oriented, a clue comes from close examination of one particular Cooper bill... At least three of the bills on top were displaced as shown, but the underlying stack was in relatively close alignment. While it could be argued that the top bills are displaced, the neat alignment of the lower stack would not be a likely result after 20 plus miles of river tumbling." TK

 

 

[FLYJACK 771]

5 hours ago, georger said:

Seriously, look how much of the bill is left. Rubber bands aren’t gonna hold packets together when 1) violence is the cause of the disintegration, and 2) that’s all that is left of the bills BEFORE it comes to rest. I believe the bills were already at rest when whatever process caused them to disintegrate occurred, otherwise I just can't see the packets staying so close together throughout all of this supposed rolling violence. 

You are correct. Any force like the Columbia would change the alignment of the contents of the bundles and the integrity of any rubber bands holding anything together! We are only talking about a few seriously stretched rubber bands. Neither paper straps or multiple bands will hold the bundles together -  The alignment of the Ingram bills may be key to the process that delivered the money and rules out forces as great as the Columbia. That alignment is crucial. Tom examined the alignment - and he found slight off axis tilting of several bills - see attached. That tilting could have happened with the bundles partially locked in at the Ingram site. 

It is unfortunate the rolling idea ever got started. Several agents expressed ideas that never made it into the Palmer report. One of those ideas was that the Cooper money had ridden the Columbia still housed in the money bag until bundles were released nearby to Tena Bar, with the rest of the money going out to sea!  There was a suggestion that the money was delivered to TBar in ice ... There has never been any shortage of ideas when it comes to the Cooper money.

The fact the Ingram bundles stayed together at all may limit the forces involved and the options of delivery. 

Lastly: a sample of a rubber band from the Ingram bills does not exist, except perhaps in the Antiquities Section of the old FBI Lab in Washington DC where the Ingram bills were separated and examined for mineralogy etc. Reports Q58, 59 etc. If pieces of those old deteriorated bands could be found and examined that might yield some valuable information. Since these Alliance bank bands lost most of their elasticity (holding power) in no more than a year after given to Cooper then any rolling of bills by forces of water with bands holding bundles together, had to have occurred almost immediately after the hijacking, which puts a date of their arrival on Tena Bar as say December 1971 ? Im just tossing out the idea ... Tom has always maintained the Ingram find was deposited at TBar in late 71 or early 72!   

You don't know what would happen to the rubber bands rolling in a slow moving River.

Both Palmer and Tom Kaye suggested rolling in the Columbia.. Tom indicated the shifting was caused by the rolling but 20 miles was too far...

So, your claims are wrong. Strawmanning some phantom agents and using assumptions doesn't cut it.