DB Cooper

[FLYJACK 772]

2 hours ago, c99acer said:

Why does the senior Ingram need to direct his son to a particular point to smooth a spot?  Why didn't he let Brian smooth the first spot Brian chose?? They are on a large beach of sand - wouldn't anywhere work??? 

This doesn't have to be the Rackstraw grift - it could be tied to any one of the suspects. The Rackstraw researchers are just the ones that exposed this part of the puzzle. A human bury on Tena Bar makes more sense than trying to get the money to wash up on shore nine years later and in a condition that it could be identified as Cooper money. 

I agree with others, that the money find doesn't really matter to solve the case. But if you have another option besides the Columbia River as the money delivery method, then you don't have to tether the rest of your story to the Columbia or the whole bag of loot. 

There is nothing suspicious about directing your young son to a spot to clear for a fire.

The condition of the money and the rubber bands crumbling contradicts a plant theory..

There is nothing to support a plant.

I looked into this a long time ago when I discovered that Dwayne Ingram's work place was under the flight path..  ultimately nope. the condition of the money contradicts a plant.

[georger 268]

10 hours ago, FLYJACK said:

I have put the piles back into the packets...

 

Let's see them.

BTW notice the smooth rounded ends of the stacked bills. Tumbling end over end is not compatible with that. Some other process is at work. A process that removes corners first.. and precisely when did your tumbling happen that resulted in rounding ends vs wearing off all ends squarely? These bills are a classic example of rounding by erosion.

Human beings have noted for millennia that hydraulic forces round things and remove corners first. 

Im not going to waste any more time trying to convince diehards. Each to his own because the time is long gone when the Cooper money might have provided some insight into the Cooper case. I think Deputy Jones was right. Cooper  made his way back to the Portland area and either willingly or unwilling was relieved of his money. And a piece of it washed down to Tena Bar and was found ... by a miracle. The rest of the money washed away. 

Edited June 21 by georger

[FLYJACK 772]

8 hours ago, Boeing 377 said:

Been reading the latest T Bar money discussions. Nice to see rational civilized discussion between smart people without personal attacks when they disagree. 
 

Long ago, when thinking out of the box, and trying to make all the pieces fit I came up with a theory. I don’t think this is what actually happened, but it would explain a lot.  
 

The Ingram parents find the loot. All of it. It’s very damaged, wet worn, etc. It doesn’t matter whether it was with Cooper’s body or not in this hypothetical scenario. They don’t know if it has value, whether they can keep it, whether the government or insurance companies will claim it and they want to figure out the best way to proceed.  
 

They decide to do a test using their child Brian as the “finder”” of a portion of the loot. They go for an unlikely nighttime picnic in the middle of winter at T Bar.  They either bury the roughly $5800 of test loot that night or earlier when Brian wasn’t there. His father very subtly directs him to a spot to prepare for a campfire and Brian “accidentally” finds the buried money. The test has begun. 
 

I don’t think this is what actually happened, but I thought I’d put it out there to simulate some further out of the box thinking.

Years ago I noticed that U-CART where Dwayne worked was virtually under the flight path.. the rear parking area bordered a wooded area with a pond.. 

Perhaps Dwayne found some money there and staged the find with Brian..

Ultimately I rejected it.

The condition of the money does not fit a plant. Rubber bands crumbled when picked up. Money was wet and deteriorated.

Money was tested and had river sand.

Dwayne said he told Brian where to clear a spot. If he was staging it he probably wouldn't admit that.

Cooper jumped at 8:11. I did a new analysis and it also confirmed 8:11. U-Cart would be 5-6 minutes later.

You'd expect eventually somebody in Dwayne's family to talk.

 

The erosion on the money looked to me like it had rolled along the bottom, no other buried money images look like that, when the Palmer report got released they also reached that same conclusion.

I am 95% that money rolled along the bottom of the River for some distance to TBAR when the water level was above the money spot which is well below flood stage.

How it got in the River... that is a real tough one.

U-CART..

 

Edited June 20 by FLYJACK

[georger 268]

1 hour ago, FLYJACK said:

Years ago I noticed that U-CART where Dwayne worked was virtually under the flight path.. the rear parking area bordered a wooded area with a pond.. 

Perhaps Dwayne found some money there and staged the find with Brian..

Ultimately I rejected it.

The condition of the money does not fit a plant. Rubber bands crumbled when picked up. Money was wet and deteriorated.

Money was tested and had river sand.

Dwayne said he told Brian where to clear a spot. If he was staging it he probably wouldn't admit that.

Cooper jumped at 8:11. I did a new analysis and it also confirmed 8:11. U-Cart would be 5-6 minutes later.

You'd expect eventually somebody in Dwayne's family to talk.

 

The erosion on the money looked to me like it had rolled along the bottom, no other buried money images look like that, when the Palmer report got released they also reached that same conclusion.

I am 95% that money rolled along the bottom of the River for some distance to TBAR when the water level was above the money spot which is well below flood stage.

How it got in the River... that is a real tough one.

U-CART..

 

Instruct us how wet limp paper money bound with bands rolls or tumbles end over end like a stiff wet noodle ??? across some sand bottom of something? That must be a trick! 

Oh! Maybe Cooper saw Ingram spray painting below and yelled: HEY! THERE. HAVE A FEW. A gift from heaven, and Ingram knew what to do next. First he rolled money over the sandy bottom for 9 years like pizza dough to get it just right for finding and announcing. 

The Ingrams are very religious people. They have faith in the impossible.....

[FLYJACK 772]

42 minutes ago, georger said:

Instruct us how wet limp paper money bound with bands rolls or tumbles end over end like a stiff wet noodle ??? across some sand bottom of something? That must be a trick! 

Oh! Maybe Cooper saw Ingram spray painting below and yelled: HEY! THERE. HAVE A FEW. A gift from heaven, and Ingram knew what to do next. First he rolled money over the sandy bottom for 9 years like pizza dough to get it just right for finding and announcing. 

The Ingrams are very religious people. They have faith in the impossible.....

No idea what you are on about.. you sound confused.

[georger 268]

Various people have suggested money rolling on the bottom and various other gymnastics as an explanation for the shapes of the bills. It seems like a common sense deduction. The socalled 'rounding' phenomenon observed in Nature Everyone just assumed the Ingram bills had to travel through water to get to Tena Bar. That is until forensic people more experienced with these matters offered a simpler more accurate explanation which Tom Kaye confirmed. All of this was reported years ago!  

The issue at the time was "holes in the money". Tom photographed bacteria eating holes in the Ingram bills. Tom found examples of bacterial invasion on several bills. Research then identified a specific bacterium common in the sands along the Columbia in the area of Tena Bar which favors cellulose in its diet. Another party suggested the wholesale loss of material on the edges and ends of the bills was probably due to the same bacterial process. 

From the viewpoint of these bacteria, a static target works best. Populations of bacteria typically work around the edges of a target. The more stable and sedentary the host target, the larger the population of feeding bacteria will be. Except, recall that Palmer told everyone that Columbia River sand was generally "sterile". Sterile that is except for a few well recognised bacteria!

We also asked about the feeding rate of these bacteria. How long before the Ingram money would have been consumed with nothing left for anyone to find? ........ those issues were never fleshed out. The amount of material removed from the Ingram bills given the feeding rate of the bacteria in play, might offer a clue as to how long the Ingram bills could have been in situ at Tena Bar? 

Tumbling along the bottom was never a viable explanation for the shapes of the Ingram bills. Likewise, the bacterial process that worked on the Ingram bills may offer an estimate about when the bills arrived on TBar...

Edited June 21 by georger

[georger 268]

As a refresher, here is one of Tom's early photos documenting bacterial activity on one of the bills - in response to the issue at the time: what made the holes in the bills.

[FLYJACK 772]

Bacteria is random, the TBAR outer wear is uniform.

If the outer wear was in situ you'd expect the same ingress all around, it isn't.. The height ingress is about half the erosion for the length.

Some have previously claimed wet dry cycles,, then you'd expect the same percentage all around, it isn't even close.

Images of buried and damaged money are just NOT uniform like this.

This pattern is consistent with rolling/tumbling along the River bottom and for some distance. It is the best explanation for TBAR money,, by a long shot.

Unfortunately, it is only half the answer.. How did it get into the River?

[olemisscub 548]

2 hours ago, FLYJACK said:

 

This pattern is consistent with rolling/tumbling along the River bottom and for some distance. 

 

What has led you to this belief about it being consistent? Have you found other examples?

[georger 268]

6 hours ago, FLYJACK said:

Bacteria is random, the TBAR outer wear is uniform.

If the outer wear was in situ you'd expect the same ingress all around, it isn't.. The height ingress is about half the erosion for the length.

Some have previously claimed wet dry cycles,, then you'd expect the same percentage all around, it isn't even close.

Images of buried and damaged money are just NOT uniform like this.

This pattern is consistent with rolling/tumbling along the River bottom and for some distance. It is the best explanation for TBAR money,, by a long shot.

Unfortunately, it is only half the answer.. How did it get into the River?

Nonsense. rolling/tumbling along the River bottom and for some distance may be fiction. An idea in your head! There is literally nothing to prove the money was ever IN the Columbia or traveled down the Columbia to Tena Bar! Literally nothing to prove that - except for your insistence it happened. 

Two facts are true and indisputable. 1. the money was in a bank bag, and next thing 2. the money is on Tena Bar subject to all of the forces and elements which prevail on a sand bar of the Columbia, including bacteria! 

Look at your photo for Christ's sake! This bill is riddled with bacterial invasions. The whole bill's shape is the result of bacterial action !

Travel the perimeter of this bill with an electron microscope and tell me you dont see the signs of bacterial invasion.

I am doing science. FJ is dreaming and making things up. When Palmer said 'beach sands are sterile' in response to 'why is the money so well preserved ...', that was the dumbest thing anyone could have said! Yes, beach sand is sterile compared to a garbage dump, but beach sands are still organic. All environments are organic! Even empty space. The fact is Palmer didnt know how to respond to the Agent's question so he just uttered nonsense.

Wake up guys! The morphology of the money is due to organic shaping in the sand at Tena Bar, and there is other obvious damage to the money that has yet to be explained. To claim the shape of the bills is due to forces of motion and travel in the Columbia, is tantamount to claiming the bills acquired there shape before even being on Tena Bar, or were never on Tena Bar!  The critical question for me is: how long was this money stable sitting in the sand on Tena Bar for organic changes to occur? How long did it take for the morphology we see to happen? A year? Five years? ..... that is a timeline which in addition to the diatoms helps date the Ingram money on Tena Bar.

This is just basic forensics. 

And where in this history of the Cooper money can the Cooper rubber bands have the opportunity to enter the melt transition phase if they did? It could have been on Tena Bar early in the money's history which turns the clock back even further.

Either identify and  follow the leads that science provides, and stop wasting people's time, or dont. This information about the Cooper money has been available for years! FJ where have you been? 

Microscopy of the edges of the bills will settle ANY questions about what shaped them! This is forensics 101!  There will be a test on Monday !

 

Edited June 21 by georger

[Kamkisky 13]

Ryan - check your DMs. 

[FLYJACK 772]

4 hours ago, georger said:

Nonsense. rolling/tumbling along the River bottom and for some distance may be fiction. An idea in your head! There is literally nothing to prove the money was ever IN the Columbia or traveled down the Columbia to Tena Bar! Literally nothing to prove that - except for your insistence it happened. 

Two facts are true and indisputable. 1. the money was in a bank bag, and next thing 2. the money is on Tena Bar subject to all of the forces and elements which prevail on a sand bar of the Columbia, including bacteria! 

Look at your photo for Christ's sake! This bill is riddled with bacterial invasions. The whole bill's shape is the result of bacterial action !

Travel the perimeter of this bill with an electron microscope and tell me you dont see the signs of bacterial invasion.

I am doing science. FJ is dreaming and making things up. When Palmer said 'beach sands are sterile' in response to 'why is the money so well preserved ...', that was the dumbest thing anyone could have said! Yes, beach sand is sterile compared to a garbage dump, but beach sands are still organic. All environments are organic! Even empty space. The fact is Palmer didnt know how to respond to the Agent's question so he just uttered nonsense.

Wake up guys! The morphology of the money is due to organic shaping in the sand at Tena Bar, and there is other obvious damage to the money that has yet to be explained. To claim the shape of the bills is due to forces of motion and travel in the Columbia, is tantamount to claiming the bills acquired there shape before even being on Tena Bar, or were never on Tena Bar!  The critical question for me is: how long was this money stable sitting in the sand on Tena Bar for organic changes to occur? How long did it take for the morphology we see to happen? A year? Five years? ..... that is a timeline which in addition to the diatoms helps date the Ingram money on Tena Bar.

This is just basic forensics. 

And where in this history of the Cooper money can the Cooper rubber bands have the opportunity to enter the melt transition phase if they did? It could have been on Tena Bar early in the money's history which turns the clock back even further.

Either identify and  follow the leads that science provides, and stop wasting people's time, or dont. This information about the Cooper money has been available for years! FJ where have you been? 

Microscopy of the edges of the bills will settle ANY questions about what shaped them! This is forensics 101!  There will be a test on Monday !

 

Complete nonsense..  it took you about 6 years to figure out the difference between a packet and a bundle.. 

You ridiculed the idea because you thought it was only my idea,

It was the same conclusion in the Palmer report, released after I first mentioned it on Shutters site.. 

 

This is the best TBAR theory by a long shot,, nothing else is even close.

 

[georger 268]

1 hour ago, FLYJACK said:

Complete nonsense..  it took you about 6 years to figure out the difference between a packet and a bundle.. 

You ridiculed the idea because you thought it was only my idea,

It was the same conclusion in the Palmer report, released after I first mentioned it on Shutters site.. 

 

This is the best TBAR theory by a long shot,, nothing else is even close.

 

Prove it!

Dont be upset. I just took it for granted everyone knew the facts! The facts have been here for years. You see we had this guy named Tom Kaye who did some research way back. I guess some people just didnt read it and connect the dots. 

Each to his own!  Good luck with your tumbling bills theory. 

Take a course on how things decompose on beaches?

And you are correct. I still dont buy your packaging theory. The issue is the same as with this: no real evidence for it in the face of real counter evidence.

This is not politics. This is science.

Edited June 22 by georger

[FLYJACK 772]

1 hour ago, georger said:

Prove it!

Dont be upset. I just took it for granted everyone knew the facts! The facts have been here for years. You see we had this guy named Tom Kaye who did some research way back. I guess some people just didnt read it and connect the dots. 

Each to his own!  Good luck with your tumbling bills theory. 

Take a course on how things decompose on beaches?

And you are correct. I still dont buy your packaging theory. The issue is the same as with this: no real evidence for it in the face of real counter evidence.

This is not politics. This is science.

You have nothing..  nothing whatsoever.

Stick to your dredge theory...

Everybody now understands the difference between a packet and a bundle except you.

Edited June 22 by FLYJACK

[georger 268]

1 hour ago, FLYJACK said:

You have nothing..  nothing whatsoever.

Stick to your dredge theory...

Everybody now understands the difference between a packet and a bundle except you.

So yours is a social game applying social pressure? With you in charge of course ...

[FLYJACK 772]

22 minutes ago, georger said:

So yours is a social game applying social pressure? With you in charge of course ...

You can believe anything you want to.. 

Objectively, the TBAR money coming from the River is the best one by a long shot..

Your arguments are either nonsense, ridicule (fallacy) or irrelevant (straw-man).

You can't even articulate a better theory. You have nothing.

Edited June 22 by FLYJACK

[georger 268]

3 hours ago, FLYJACK said:

You can believe anything you want to.. 

Objectively, the TBAR money coming from the River is the best one by a long shot..

Your arguments are either nonsense, ridicule (fallacy) or irrelevant (straw-man).

You can't even articulate a better theory. You have nothing.

https://citizensleuths.com/moneyanalysis.html

It isnt important what you think. It is important what other people have access to and think. ... 

Edited June 22 by georger

[Robert99 60]

7 minutes ago, georger said:

https://citizensleuths.com/moneyanalysis.html

It isnt important what you think. It is important what other people have access to and think. ... 

FlyJack must be the new owner of this site.  And he apparently feels that he alone has all the answers.  He calls some of the people who disagree with him liars and others lesser names.

So far as I can tell, FlyJack has not done a single thing here that advanced the Cooper investigation and has claimed credit for things that other people originally did long before he turned up on this site.

[georger 268]

9 minutes ago, Robert99 said:

FlyJack must be the new owner of this site.  And he apparently feels that he alone has all the answers.  He calls some of the people who disagree with him liars and others lesser names.

So far as I can tell, FlyJack has not done a single thing here that advanced the Cooper investigation and has claimed credit for things that other people originally did long before he turned up on this site.

Dont be hard on him. Personally I let this get away from me. It never occurred to me that anyone would take the end-over-end theory seriously. Tom's bacteria work just never got the attention it deserved and that falls on me and others. This too will pass.  My son says it was 122 near you last week! Good grief! 

[Robert99 60]

2 minutes ago, georger said:

Dont be hard on him. Personally I let this get away from me. It never occurred to me that anyone would take the end-over-end theory seriously. Tom's bacteria work just never got the attention it deserved and that falls on me and others. This too will pass.  My son says it was 122 near you last week! Good grief! 

I live more than 4000 feet above sea level and 112 degrees would be more accurate at my house.  But just wait until mid-summer gets here.

Here are a couple of things I seem to remember from TK's experiments using actual US currency, his own I might add.

When TK placed bundles of money held together by rubber bands in water, the ends of the bundles flared and the bundles soon sank.

When the bundles sank to the bottom, they stayed there permanently.

 Having visited Tena Bar several times and having spent several decades involved with such things as aerodynamics and fluid flow, I can categorically state that the money DID NOT come from the river.

If the money entered the river in its east-to-west segment adjacent to the Portland International Airport or at some point further upstream, after it made the turn to the north it would have passed Tena Bar on the riverbed and the Oregon side of the river.

While the exact location and elevation where the money was found is not now know, it was probably not more than 5 or 6 feet above sea level.  Except during spring runoffs, the surface of the river at Tena Bar is typically only 2 or 3 feet above sea level.  The daily tidal change is less than 2 feet.

[FLYJACK 772]

8 hours ago, georger said:

https://citizensleuths.com/moneyanalysis.html

It isnt important what you think. It is important what other people have access to and think. ... 

Nothing Tom did contradicts the tumbling theory, nothing.

[FLYJACK 772]

8 hours ago, Robert99 said:

FlyJack must be the new owner of this site.  And he apparently feels that he alone has all the answers.  He calls some of the people who disagree with him liars and others lesser names.

So far as I can tell, FlyJack has not done a single thing here that advanced the Cooper investigation and has claimed credit for things that other people originally did long before he turned up on this site.

This is nonsense..and an abuse of reality.

What am I claiming credit for? 

I was the one who told Tom about the diatom seasonality and gave him the research. I was the first one to identify Cooper's parachute card. I was the one who figured out the conventional thinking on the money bundles/packets was wrong, you guys tried to get me banned for it.. I was the one who figured out that Cooper initially asked for airstairs down on takeoff, everybody assumed he only asked for airstairs down on takeoff. and more...

You guys have always fought every advancement in this case that didn't fit your established narratives. This isn't 2010 anymore. 

People have lied and use lies because they can't articulate a valid argument. 

 

 

[FLYJACK 772]

8 hours ago, georger said:

Dont be hard on him. Personally I let this get away from me. It never occurred to me that anyone would take the end-over-end theory seriously. Tom's bacteria work just never got the attention it deserved and that falls on me and others. This too will pass.  My son says it was 122 near you last week! Good grief! 

Wrong,

The bacteria did not create the uniform rounding of the edges. Bacteria is more random.

and the rounding is only on the around the outer edges not through the middle of the stack from the top or bottom of the bill middle. If it was bacteria it would be random and from all sides.

No images of buried money looks like TBAR money.. TBAR erosion is too uniform.

 

The more you guys fight this with bad arguments the more better it becomes.

 

[FLYJACK 772]

8 hours ago, Robert99 said:

I live more than 4000 feet above sea level and 112 degrees would be more accurate at my house.  But just wait until mid-summer gets here.

Here are a couple of things I seem to remember from TK's experiments using actual US currency, his own I might add.

When TK placed bundles of money held together by rubber bands in water, the ends of the bundles flared and the bundles soon sank.

When the bundles sank to the bottom, they stayed there permanently.

 Having visited Tena Bar several times and having spent several decades involved with such things as aerodynamics and fluid flow, I can categorically state that the money DID NOT come from the river.

If the money entered the river in its east-to-west segment adjacent to the Portland International Airport or at some point further upstream, after it made the turn to the north it would have passed Tena Bar on the riverbed and the Oregon side of the river.

While the exact location and elevation where the money was found is not now know, it was probably not more than 5 or 6 feet above sea level.  Except during spring runoffs, the surface of the river at Tena Bar is typically only 2 or 3 feet above sea level.  The daily tidal change is less than 2 feet.

So, you have some things wrong, one thing right.

TK used one rubber band in the middle for his test.. he has since confirmed the money had two rubber bands.

The money sank when tested but it wasn't in the Columbia River with a sandy bottom.. it was in a tank..

Tom theorized that the money could move in the Columbia.

"Placing this in context with various theories, a rocky bottom stream like the Washougal River would provide continuous obstacles to bundles moving down stream along the bottom. The Columbia River has a sandy bottom which may allow movement of bundles when the flow rate is high enough."

You can't state the money DID NOT come from the River.. this is your own bias not supported by any evidence.

You have always claimed the money would have been on the other side or in the channel, this is pure speculation.. you do not know what that money did or would do. If it went in at Frenchman's Bar it would end up on the TBAR side.. (debris ends up on the same side as it went in)

You are correct the elevation of the money spot was about 6 feet, the high water mark, the typical River level was about 2 feet with a tidal of less than 2 feet.. So, for the money to get to high water mark the River level had to be above it while the money rolled along the bottom to that spot. That 6 ft level is well below the flood stage and is often breached. The Fazio's claimed the water was above the money spot recent to the money find.

Finally, this is the conclusion in the Palmer report but you guys choose to attack the messenger because you don't have any valid arguments whatsoever.. it is clear you both have agendas..

The money was found at the high water line of a mile wide River,,, the most likely source is the River,, the evidence supports it, the Palmer report supports it and it is the best theory by far..

You guys have no legit theories at all...

You both use Tom's research on the money to attack this but it actually doesn't contradict it in any way.. Tom even suggested the money could be moved on the sandy bottom of the Columbia.

[olemisscub 548]

53 minutes ago, FLYJACK said:

Wrong,

The bacteria did not create the uniform rounding of the edges. Bacteria is more random.

and the rounding is only on the around the outer edges not through the middle of the stack from the top or bottom of the bill middle. If it was bacteria it would be random and from all sides.

No images of buried money looks like TBAR money.. TBAR erosion is too uniform.

 

When it comes to Tena Bar, I'm usually Mr. "No Hablo Ingles", but I occasionally can get interested. 

Do you have any examples of tumbling in water having such an effect? Would like to see that.

Also, I'd always assumed that the shards were the remnants of whatever flaked off the bills that hadn't disintegrated yet. If tumbling caused the removal of the edges, then shouldn't those edges be on the river bottom?

That's my only concern with your theory. Explain the shards and provide an example of what tumbling on a river bottom does.