DB Cooper

[FLYJACK 769]

"TBAR money may be from another crime"

That was my investigation many years ago...  it is complex

It is theoretically possible that the TBAR money never went to Cooper... extremely unlikely but possible based on the way the ransom list was curated by the FBI.

The bank had previously recorded $230,000 in $20's in 100's and in physical order of bills. Not numeric order.

$200,000 was grabbed for Cooper, leaving $30,000.

The recorded microfilm had all $230,000 bills on it. The bank sent the entire list to the FBI with 15 packets start/stop numbers for the money NOT GIVEN TO COOPER.. those 1500 bills were to be removed from the FBI list.

So, the FBI had to deduct 1500 bills based on the 15 start/stop sets of numbers..

Meanwhile the bank immediately put the 15 packets into a new bank ransom stash and recorded all the bill numbers.

The FBI was having trouble deducting the 1500 bills from the initial list and asked for a list of the 1500 bills not taken for Cooper.

The entire NEW micro list was sent to the FBI with start/stop bill numbers.. there was an error in those numbers. Somehow the FBI eventually came up with the list.

So, the process to create the ransom list was convoluted and by elimination. If the FBI or the bank made an error using those 15 sets of start/stop bill numbers then money not given to Cooper and to the new bank stash could have theoretically made it on the FBI list.. If that money was later used for a ransom it could have gone to TBAR..

So, it is theoretically possible that the FBI list was flawed die to its curation and bills not given to Cooper were on the list. Those bills were part of a new bank ransom stash.

This is extremely unlikely but theoretically possible.

When people claim it is a 100% fact that the TBAR money was Cooper ransom money, it isn't. It depends how accurate the FBI was in removing the 1500 bills (15 packets) from the micro list and they admitted they were having trouble figuring it out.

We don't have the original micro of the bills in order to double check what the FBI did to establish the final ransom list.. did they remove the correct 1500 bills.. the final list we see has been re-ordered alpha numerically.

 

 

Edited June 16 by FLYJACK

[georger 267]

13 minutes ago, FLYJACK said:

"TBAR money may be from another crime"

That was my investigation many years ago...  it is complex

It is theoretically possible that the TBAR money never went to Cooper... extremely unlikely but possible based on the way the ransom list was curated by the FBI.

The bank had previously recorded $230,000 in $20's in 100's and in physical order of bills. Not numeric order.

$200,000 was grabbed for Cooper, leaving $30,000.

The recorded microfilm had all $230,000 bills on it. The bank sent the entire list to the FBI with 15 packets start/stop numbers for the money NOT GIVEN TO COOPER.. those 1500 bills were to be removed from the FBI list.

So, the FBI had to deduct 1500 bills based on the 15 start/stop sets of numbers..

Meanwhile the bank immediately put the 15 packets into a new bank ransom stash and recorded all the bill numbers.

The FBI was having trouble deducting the 1500 bills from the initial list and asked for a list of the 1500 bills not taken for Cooper.

The entire NEW micro list was sent to the FBI with start/stop bill numbers.. there was an error in those numbers. Somehow the FBI eventually came up with the list.

So, the process to create the ransom list was convoluted and by elimination. If the FBI or the bank made an error using those 15 sets of start/stop bill numbers then money not given to Cooper and to the new bank stash could have theoretically made it on the FBI list.. If that money was later used for a ransom it could have gone to TBAR..

So, it is theoretically possible that the FBI list was flawed die to its curation and bills not given to Cooper were on the list. Those bills were part of a new bank ransom stash.

This is extremely unlikely but theoretically possible.

When people claim it is a 100% fact that the TBAR money was Cooper ransom money, it isn't. It depends how accurate the FBI was in removing the 1500 bills (15 packets) from the micro list and they admitted they were having trouble figuring it out.

We don't have the original micro of the bills in order to double check what the FBI did to establish the final ransom list.. did they remove the correct 1400 bills.. the final list we see has been re-ordered alpha numerically.

 

 

Nonsense. There was no 'other crime' involving Cooper bills.

Today is Monday by consensus. Likewise the Ingrqam find is money given to Cooper.

[FLYJACK 769]

3 hours ago, georger said:

Nonsense. There was no 'other crime' involving Cooper bills.

Today is Monday by consensus. Likewise the Ingrqam find is money given to Cooper.

Extremely unlikely but possible based on the process the FBI had to use to create the ransom list..

Most people assume the bank just gave a perfect ransom bill list to the FBI, they didn't..

They gave the FBI a micro image list that included 1500 $20 bills that Cooper did not receive.

and only 15 sets of start/stop numbers to deduct those 1500 bills. the FBI admitted they were having trouble deducting the bills.

There is room for error. Small but there.

The 1500 bills on the micro list given to the FBI was immediately put back into a new 2nd bank emergency money stash.

Edited June 16 by FLYJACK

[DWeber 3]

1 hour ago, FLYJACK said:

Extremely unlikely but possible based on the process the FBI had to use to create the ransom list..

Most people assume the bank just gave a perfect ransom bill list to the FBI, they didn't..

They gave the FBI a micro image list that included 1500 bills that cooper did not receive.

and only 15 sets of start/stop numbers to deduct those 1500 bills. the FBI admitted they were having trouble deducting the bills.

There is room for error. Small but there.

The 1500 bills on the micro list given to the FBI was immediately put back into a new 2nd bank emergency money stash.

Interesting. Are we 100% sure Cooper was given 200k? Any chance he could have been given more or less? I always took the 200k as an absolute but now starting to wonder if that is the case 

[FLYJACK 769]

54 minutes ago, DWeber said:

Interesting. Are we 100% sure Cooper was given 200k? Any chance he could have been given more or less? I always took the 200k as an absolute but now starting to wonder if that is the case 

He was given 200k...

The bank ransom stash was actually 250k but 20k was in $10's..

So, the micro list created by the bank and given to the FBI had ALL $250k on it. The FBI could ignore the $10's but had to eliminate 1500 $20's on the list that didn't go to Cooper.

The FBI most likely eliminated the correct 1500 bills but we can't double check their process. So, there is still a very small possibility they messed up the elimination of those 1500 bills not used for Cooper and went back into a second bank ransom stash. They even admitted they were having difficulty.

It is interesting but can't be resolved without the full original micro from the bank.

[73blazer 1]

On 3/31/2025 at 9:11 AM, FLYJACK said:

Well, Captain obvious strikes again.. how do you do it.

I have always said we don't know what he meant, you and others have claimed to know what he meant. Not me. 

"Minnesota nice" is the concept, the people would be described as "nice". Nobody would use the phrase "Minnesota nice". They would just call them "nice"..

If Tina was accurate and Cooper did say "Minnesota is nice country" that could mean geographically or the characteristics of the people. 

and again, we don't know what Cooper actually meant.

But, using "nice" to describe the people was far more common then than calling the geography "nice".

And, through the 60's "Minnesota nice" had a racial reference.  

 

Just happen to come across this article last night which reminded me of this discussion a few weeks back.

"Minnesota's 'nice' culture shattered by political violence"

But, in line with today's complete lack of journalism, they only cite the Wikipedia page  in reference to the "Minnesota nice"

Edited June 18 by 73blazer

[georger 267]

5 hours ago, 73blazer said:

Just happen to come across this article last night which reminded me of this discussion a few weeks back.

"Minnesota's 'nice' culture shattered by political violence"

But, in line with today's complete lack of journalism, they only cite the Wikipedia page  in reference to the "Minnesota nice"

Cooper said, "Minnesota is nice country"

Cooper did not say: Hi! Thanks so much for having me. Tornadoes are not a common occurrence in Greenland. While Greenland experiences a variety of severe weather, including blizzards and strong winds, tornadoes are extremely rare. The island's climate and geography are not conducive to the formation of tornadoes, which typically require warm, moist air colliding with cooler, drier air, a condition more common in lower latitudes

Some day people will figure this out ... with the help of their psychologists.

Edited June 18 by georger

[FLYJACK 769]

27 minutes ago, georger said:

Cooper said, "Minnesota is nice country"

Cooper did not say: Hi! Thanks so much for having me. Tornadoes are not a common occurrence in Greenland. While Greenland experiences a variety of severe weather, including blizzards and strong winds, tornadoes are extremely rare. The island's climate and geography are not conducive to the formation of tornadoes, which typically require warm, moist air colliding with cooler, drier air, a condition more common in lower latitudes

Some day people will figure this out ... with the help of their psychologists.

Georger often plays fast and loose with the facts... and makes assumptions.

Tina's 302 does not say that Cooper said "Minnesota is "very" nice country"

It reports that.. after she said she was living in Minneapolis..   He INDICATED that MINNEAPOLIS Minn, was very nice country.

So, neither Georger or Ryan actually knows his words or what he meant. Nobody does.

He was actually responding and referring to Minneapolis.. which is a city.

This is Tina's interpretation,, Cooper could have meant many things.

 

[FLYJACK 769]

The money offered to the stews ending up at TBAR is a valid theory but it is not reasonable that "Tena" Bar was related to "Tina".. There would not be any expectation of that money to be found, it was a one in a million random event that Brian found it.

If somebody wanted to send a message they would have hung it from the Tena Bar sign or put it in some place so obvious it would be found. TBAR money was not meant to be found.

Ryan's restaurant analogy is off.. the money would not have been left inside on the table, it would have been tossed in the garbage out back, not meant to be found. 

The highest probability is that the money came from the river, either discarded and tossed in upstream or unintentionally introduced into the river..

Extremely low probability, it never went to Cooper and the FBI ransom list is wrong.

[georger 267]

28 minutes ago, FLYJACK said:

Georger often plays fast and loose with the facts... and makes assumptions.

Tina's 302 does not say that Cooper said "Minnesota is "very" nice country"

It reports that.. after she said she was living in Minneapolis..   He INDICATED that MINNEAPOLIS Minn, was very nice country.

So, neither Georger or Ryan actually knows his words or what he meant. Nobody does.

He was actually responding and referring to Minneapolis.. which is a city.

This is Tina's interpretation,, Cooper could have meant many things.

 

Cooper indicated that Minneapolis, MN was very nice country.

You  can twist this any way you will. When you twist this you place your own personal stamp on it casting whatever doubt or complication you wish to sow! This is a device you use to criticise others. All of which has nothing to do with what Cooper said or the dialogue that was going on between Cooper and Tina. Any discussion about this becomes impossible. I guess its a control device you have developed to take over discussion boards!

I have things to do - in the real world...

Edited June 18 by georger

[FLYJACK 769]

53 minutes ago, georger said:

Cooper indicated that Minneapolis, MN was very nice country.

You  can twist this any way you will. When you twist this you place your own personal stamp on it casting whatever doubt or complication you wish to sow! This is a device you use to criticise others. All of which has nothing to do with what Cooper said or the dialogue that was going on between Cooper and Tina. Any discussion about this becomes impossible. I guess its a control device you have developed to take over discussion boards!

I have things to do - in the real world...

Fact is.. you don't know what he said or what he meant, you are assuming..

I pointed out earlier that he might have been referring to Minnesota "Nice" describing the people which was a subtle form of racism pre-Norjak.. If he was that might tell us something about Cooper.

But you choose to ridicule something that you don't even understand. You do this to remain relevant..

Nobody knows what he meant, except Cooper.

Edited June 18 by FLYJACK

[Kamkisky 10]

2 hours ago, FLYJACK said:

The money offered to the stews ending up at TBAR is a valid theory but it is not reasonable that "Tena" Bar was related to "Tina".. There would not be any expectation of that money to be found, it was a one in a million random event that Brian found it.

If somebody wanted to send a message they would have hung it from the Tena Bar sign or put it in some place so obvious it would be found. TBAR money was not meant to be found.

Ryan's restaurant analogy is off.. the money would not have been left inside on the table, it would have been tossed in the garbage out back, not meant to be found. 

The highest probability is that the money came from the river, either discarded and tossed in upstream or unintentionally introduced into the river..

Extremely low probability, it never went to Cooper and the FBI ransom list is wrong.

Tena Bar was a well known fishing spot and recreation area. There was a grey bearded dude there fishing when the FBI showed up. It’s anything but one in a million. You put something on a used beach and someone will eventually find it, which is exactly what happened. Also, it wasn’t out at the waters edge, it wasn’t intended to float away. 
 

My two cents, it likely took longer to find than Cooper wanted…maybe he didn’t account for the cows and it got stomped down lower than he left it, so it took longer to surface.  
 

As for T4T, hell of a coincidence. Then it’s the same amount Tosaw says was offered. Second hell of a coincidence. How many coincidences are we going to over look before we accept the evidence? 

Edited June 18 by Kamkisky

[Kamkisky 10]

Also, money bundles sink. The bottom of the river is littered with debris and trash. It’s not getting far before finding its snag and resting place at the bottom. The money just wouldn’t  travel far or last long in the river. It’d of had to of come from just up stream and it would have needed to not be in the water until it floats down. And you need a high enough flood stage (debated) and it’d have to get buried in sand (is that even possible?). That bank money bag isn’t lasting years in the PNW either so it’d have to have been stored in a different bag/container.  
 

There's just so many obstacles to the floated down river theory. It’s not overcome-able. Meanwhile, the somebody put it there theory only requires a reason why…the rest of it works just fine. Way less obstacles.  

Edited June 18 by Kamkisky

[FLYJACK 769]

24 minutes ago, Kamkisky said:

Tena Bar was a well known fishing spot and recreation area. There was a grey bearded dude there fishing when the FBI showed up. It’s anything but one in a million. You put something on a used beach and someone will eventually find it, which is exactly what happened. Also, it wasn’t out at the waters edge, it wasn’t intended to float away. 
 

My two cents, it likely took longer to find than Cooper wanted…maybe he didn’t account for the cows and it got stomped down lower than he left it, so it took longer to surface.  
 

As for T4T, hell of a coincidence. Then it’s the same amount Tosaw says was offered. Second hell of a coincidence. How many coincidences are we going to over look before we accept the evidence? 

TBAR was used by some locals.. not a common "public" place..

Frenchman's Bar 2 miles upstream was a popular public beach area with parking.

The money spot was at the high water line often underwater, Fazio's said in 1980 that it was recently underwater. 

The money was found feet from the bordering property..

It is not a place to plant money intended to be found.

But, the stew money is one of my top three TBAR theories... I just don't see anyway it was planted to be found or TBAR had any "Tina" meaning.. in my stew theory it was just discarded upstream to get rid of it.. probably tossed at Frenchman's Bar in a brown paper bag. Landing on TBAR was just a coincidence.

 

[FLYJACK 769]

4 minutes ago, Kamkisky said:

Also, money bundles sink. The bottom of the river is littered with debris and trash. It’s not getting far before finding its snag and resting place at the bottom. The money just wouldn’t  travel far or last long in the river. It’d of had to of come from just up stream and it would have needed to not be in the water until it floats down. And you need a high enough flood stage (debated) and it’d have to get buried in sand (is that even possible?). That bank money bag isn’t lasting years in the PNW either so it’d have to have been stored in a different bag/container.  
 

There's just so many obstacles to the floated down river theory. It’s not overcome-able. Meanwhile, the somebody put it there theory only requires a reason why…the rest of it works just fine. Way less obstacles.  

Yes, money bundles sink, but they still have buoyancy even on the bottom. That area of the river is sandy with almost no snags (I posted a video of the river bottom off TBAR) and a bundle can be pushed along the bottom by current.

So, I like Frenchman's Bar as an entry point,, 2 miles upstream, same side of river, easy access with a parking lot.. Probably tossed into the river inside a paper bag or container.. which could float for some time. Maybe sinks,, money gets rolled onto its spot when the water is above the spot (usually Spring time).

and no the money spot was well below flood stage. If I recall the flood stage starts at 11 feet, the money spot is about 6 feet. You don't need a flood, just high water above the money spot.

The burial/plant thing doesn't make any sense, it is the worst spot to bury money. If you wanted to bury money there are a million better spots close by. 

Also, the bills were rounded off edgewise which suggests tumbling like along a sandy river bottom. End over end.

What I really wish we knew,, did the money arrive closer to the hijacking or closer to the find??  that would help immensely.

[Kamkisky 10]

1 hour ago, FLYJACK said:

Yes, money bundles sink, but they still have buoyancy even on the bottom. That area of the river is sandy with almost no snags (I posted a video of the river bottom off TBAR) and a bundle can be pushed along the bottom by current.

So, I like Frenchman's Bar as an entry point,, 2 miles upstream, same side of river, easy access with a parking lot.. Probably tossed into the river inside a paper bag or container.. which could float for some time. Maybe sinks,, money gets rolled onto its spot when the water is above the spot (usually Spring time).

and no the money spot was well below flood stage. If I recall the flood stage starts at 11 feet, the money spot is about 6 feet. You don't need a flood, just high water above the money spot.

The burial/plant thing doesn't make any sense, it is the worst spot to bury money. If you wanted to bury money there are a million better spots close by. 

Also, the bills were rounded off edgewise which suggests tumbling like along a sandy river bottom. End over end.

What I really wish we knew,, did the money arrive closer to the hijacking or closer to the find??  that would help immensely.

It was commonly used enough for this new transplant family to be BBQing there. There’s literally someone there when the FBI  are searching. The beach is accessible by water, everyone talks about the road for some reason. Anyone with the right sized boat can get there without going past a Fazio. 
 

I’m not saying it’s for sure he wanted it found. Under the ceremonial theory he might have buried it without the intent it be found. Civilizations across time and the global have ceremonies that from a resource allocation perspective are insane. Burying 6k out of 200k is not outlandish by these standards.
 

Under the FU to the feds theory he’d want it to be found, same for the communication to Tina concept. And no matter where he put it people could say there were a million better spots. 

I do know this, if I want it to be found on that specific beach but need to be discrete about how I’m doing it, I want it buried just below the surface of the sand too. I’d just setup some gear and slyly get a little hole dug, drop it in, spread some sand and gather my gear and leave over the course of an hour or two. Just a guy out fishing. You could be 30 feet from me and not notice. And what would I expect to happen? I’d expect someone to eventually find it (while I’m long gone), which is exactly what happened. Buried things on beaches get found, happens all the time…it’s the nature of sand. If it was buried in a backyard or field or woods it’d be different.

As for the tumbled edges, aren’t those the shards? The money rotted in place, if it rotted somewhere else to the point edges fall off in water there wouldn’t have been shards of all sizes. The tumbling would have washed all that away and you have what the photos show after the Ingrams washed it. 

The evidence suggests none of the other theories. We have to make those up. We need to invent other people, miracle dredges that are gentle enough for bundles of cash to stay together, money falling from Coopers pocket, paper bags, etc. It’s all made up.

We know Cooper had the money. We know the six grand shows up at Tena Bar. We know he was polite to Tina and offered her money. We know the bar is reachable by water and the beach is used for recreation. I see a pattern forming here that requires no inventing things to discern. 

Edited June 19 by Kamkisky

[FLYJACK 769]

1 hour ago, Kamkisky said:

It was commonly used enough for this new transplant family to be BBQing there. There’s literally someone there when the FBI  are searching. The beach is accessible by water, everyone talks about the road for some reason. Anyone with the right sized boat can get there without going past a Fazio. 
 

I’m not saying it’s for sure he wanted it found. Under the ceremonial theory he might have buried it without the intent it be found. Civilizations across time and the global have ceremonies that from a resource allocation perspective are insane. Burying 6k out of 200k is not outlandish by these standards.
 

Under the FU to the feds theory he’d want it to be found, same for the communication to Tina concept. And no matter where he put it people could say there were a million better spots. 

I do know this, if I want it to be found on that specific beach but need to be discrete about how I’m doing it, I want it buried just below the surface of the sand too. I’d just setup some gear and slyly get a little hole dug, drop it in, spread some sand and gather my gear and leave over the course of an hour or two. Just a guy out fishing. You could be 30 feet from me and not notice. And what would I expect to happen? I’d expect someone to eventually find it (while I’m long gone), which is exactly what happened. Buried things on beaches get found, happens all the time…it’s the nature of sand. If it was buried in a backyard or field or woods it’d be different.

As for the tumbled edges, aren’t those the shards? The money rotted in place, if it rotted somewhere else to the point edges fall off in water there wouldn’t have been shards of all sizes. The tumbling would have washed all that away and you have what the photos show after the Ingrams washed it. 

The evidence suggests none of the other theories. We have to make those up. We need to invent other people, miracle dredges that are gentle enough for bundles of cash to stay together, money falling from Coopers pocket, paper bags, etc. It’s all made up.

We know Cooper had the money. We know the six grand shows up at Tena Bar. We know he was polite to Tina and offered her money. We know the bar is reachable by water and the beach is used for recreation. I see a pattern forming here that requires no inventing things to discern. 

Human burial makes no sense. It is in the worst spot and what for? 

You are still making up a theories..

TBAR was accessible but not a common place with easy access, some locals and fisherman. Look at a map of Frenchman's Bar.. a road in and parking.

The money was rounded off about 50% around the outside of the packets. I have seen buried money images and it doesn't look as uniformly eroded as TBAR money. The shards don't account for the outer erosion. Palmer suggested tumbling, we don't know for sure but it is consistent with tumbling end over end. The money looks like a wet bundle rolled end over end along a sandy river bottom. 

The absolute simplest theory is that it went into the river and was pushed onto TBAR.

The closest public access beach upstream is Frenchman's Bar about 2 miles away.

There is nothing to indicate it was human buried for any reason.

and we aren't 100% certain the money was ever given to Cooper,, maybe 98%...

Edited June 19 by FLYJACK

[c99acer 8]

13 hours ago, FLYJACK said:

...

There is nothing to indicate it was human buried for any reason.

and we aren't 100% certain the money was ever given to Cooper,, maybe 98%...

Nothing... Not even a clip from 2016 history channel series with this guy pointing and telling junior where to clear a spot?   

[olemisscub 545]

1 hour ago, c99acer said:

Nothing... Not even a clip from 2016 history channel series with this guy pointing and telling junior where to clear a spot?   

He’s talking about digging a firepit. Slim had his arms full of wood for the fire. Brian didn’t so much dig into the sand but rather smoothed it out with his hand. Cattle had escaped and ran through the beach a few days earlier. The sand on the bar was pockmarked and uneven from the hooves of the cows. 

The Ingrams don’t have anything to do with the money other than finding it. 

This is just scurrilous bullshit from the Rackstraw grift. 

[FLYJACK 769]

I don't think TBAR will ever be solved,, just some theories ranging from nonsense to possible.

[Kamkisky 10]

17 hours ago, FLYJACK said:

Human burial makes no sense. It is in the worst spot and what for? 

You are still making up a theories..

TBAR was accessible but not a common place with easy access, some locals and fisherman. Look at a map of Frenchman's Bar.. a road in and parking.

The money was rounded off about 50% around the outside of the packets. I have seen buried money images and it doesn't look as uniformly eroded as TBAR money. The shards don't account for the outer erosion. Palmer suggested tumbling, we don't know for sure but it is consistent with tumbling end over end. The money looks like a wet bundle rolled end over end along a sandy river bottom. 

The absolute simplest theory is that it went into the river and was pushed onto TBAR.

The closest public access beach upstream is Frenchman's Bar about 2 miles away.

There is nothing to indicate it was human buried for any reason.

and we aren't 100% certain the money was ever given to Cooper,, maybe 98%...

“The money was rounded off about 50% around the outside of the packets. I have seen buried money images and it doesn't look as uniformly eroded as TBAR money. The shards don't account for the outer erosion. Palmer suggested tumbling, we don't know for sure but it is consistent with tumbling end over end. The money looks like a wet bundle rolled end over end along a sandy river bottom.”

 

How does the edges of the money get removed by tumbling end over end on the sandy river bottom but the rubber bands survive? That makes zero sense.  
 

Your position is the money did not rot in place? 

[georger 267]

54 minutes ago, Kamkisky said:

“The money was rounded off about 50% around the outside of the packets. I have seen buried money images and it doesn't look as uniformly eroded as TBAR money. The shards don't account for the outer erosion. Palmer suggested tumbling, we don't know for sure but it is consistent with tumbling end over end. The money looks like a wet bundle rolled end over end along a sandy river bottom.”

 

How does the edges of the money get removed by tumbling end over end on the sandy river bottom but the rubber bands survive? That makes zero sense.  
 

Your position is the money did not rot in place? 

Things get rounded off in nature, especially where water flows. Its called erosion. Has nothing to do with bundles tumbling end over end. Look at rocks in a creek or river bed.

Moreover the amount of material loss and the rate of erosion is a function of force and time. In Tom's  early work he estimated 1/8th inch per year on one bill.  

Learn something about erosion. The image of bundles tumbling end over end is nonsense - laughable.

In the case of the Ingram money there are other examples of abrasion, cuts, tears etc in addition to common erosive rounding. The loss of material around the ends and edges of these bills is not the whole story of this money.The Ingrams said the money was pulled out of the sand in 3-4 parts. The bills were not a single aligned evenly aligned mass of bills. Tom provides a graph showing the twisting of several bills on one axis ...  

Simple theories like 'end over end tumbling' does not begin to explain the history of this money.

Damage apparent on the twelve groups of money suggests the money experienced several destructive events before the bills settled into one place and began eroding naturally. That is one of the reasons I favor a destructive dredging scenario prior to the bills settling as a group on the beach where they were found. But this theory could explain some of the damage seen in these groups of bills, in addition to the edge erosion and rounding of the bills.

Keep in mind, the flow of water and sand at TBar is south to north! This money could have moved some distance from its original place of origin to finally be noticed just below the upper active sand layer identified by Palmer where the Ingram kids were digging. There is no credible account of Cooper money being seen at TBar prior to the Ingram incident. These bills tumbling end over end on the bottom of the river to wind up high on the beach at TBar is total nonsense, and a joke!   

 

Edited June 19 by georger

[Kamkisky 10]

42 minutes ago, georger said:

Things get rounded off in nature, especially where water flows. Its called erosion. Has nothing to do with bundles tumbling end over end. Look at rocks in a creek or river bed.

Moreover the amount of material loss and the rate of erosion is a function of force and time. In Tom's  early work he estimated 1/8th inch per year on one bill.  

Learn something about erosion. The image of bundles tumbling end over end is nonsense - laughable.

In the case of the Ingram money there are other examples of abrasion, cuts, tears etc in addition to common erosive rounding. The loss of material around the ends and edges of these bills is not the whole story of this money.The Ingrams said the money was pulled out of the sand in 3-4 parts. The bills were not a single aligned evenly aligned mass of bills. Tom provides a graph showing the twisting of several bills on one axis ...  

Simple theories like 'end over end tumbling' does not begin to explain the history of this money.

Damage apparent on the twelve groups of money suggests the money experienced several destructive events before the bills settled into one place and began eroding naturally. That is one of the reasons I favor a destructive dredging scenario prior to the bills settling as a group on the beach where they were found. But this theory could explain some of the damage seen in these groups of bills, in addition to the edge erosion and rounding of the bills.

Keep in mind, the flow of water and sand at TBar is south to north! This money could have moved some distance from its original place of origin to finally be noticed just below the upper active sand layer identified by Palmer where the Ingram kids were digging. There is no credible account of Cooper money being seen at TBar prior to the Ingram incident. These bills tumbling end over end on the bottom of the river to wind up high on the beach at TBar is total nonsense, and a joke!   

 

Yeah, simple physics suggests any abrasive force from rubbing along sand would take out the rubber bands along with the rotten edges of the bills. I don’t see how that could even be argued. It’s obvious. 
 

Any theory that states the bills rotted elsewhere, then floated downstream has to explain the shards. The rotted edges of the bills would be lost in any river float/sandy bottom theory.
 

Unless the claim is some minor rotting occurred first, then the river ride, then more rotting in place at Tena Bar. That takes out a lot of other theories though and leaves you with the money being somewhere just upstream rotting until it moves to Tena Bar to rot some more…but…how do the rubber bands stay on? Again, it makes no sense. The rubber bands in good condition adjust to the size of the package and when the package volume is reduce the effectiveness of the bands is reduced. How would they survive a river ride after some rotting? The bands would not is the answer. 
 
The simplest explanation is someone buried it at Tena Bar. All it requires is a reason, there are no other obstacles. The other transport methods have so many contingencies, it strains the imagination. 
 

[FLYJACK 769]

2 hours ago, georger said:

Things get rounded off in nature, especially where water flows. Its called erosion. Has nothing to do with bundles tumbling end over end. Look at rocks in a creek or river bed.

Moreover the amount of material loss and the rate of erosion is a function of force and time. In Tom's  early work he estimated 1/8th inch per year on one bill.  

Learn something about erosion. The image of bundles tumbling end over end is nonsense - laughable.

In the case of the Ingram money there are other examples of abrasion, cuts, tears etc in addition to common erosive rounding. The loss of material around the ends and edges of these bills is not the whole story of this money.The Ingrams said the money was pulled out of the sand in 3-4 parts. The bills were not a single aligned evenly aligned mass of bills. Tom provides a graph showing the twisting of several bills on one axis ...  

Simple theories like 'end over end tumbling' does not begin to explain the history of this money.

Damage apparent on the twelve groups of money suggests the money experienced several destructive events before the bills settled into one place and began eroding naturally. That is one of the reasons I favor a destructive dredging scenario prior to the bills settling as a group on the beach where they were found. But this theory could explain some of the damage seen in these groups of bills, in addition to the edge erosion and rounding of the bills.

Keep in mind, the flow of water and sand at TBar is south to north! This money could have moved some distance from its original place of origin to finally be noticed just below the upper active sand layer identified by Palmer where the Ingram kids were digging. There is no credible account of Cooper money being seen at TBar prior to the Ingram incident. These bills tumbling end over end on the bottom of the river to wind up high on the beach at TBar is total nonsense, and a joke!   

 

Georger,

The only thing laughable is your lack of case knowledge after almost 15 years on this case..

The Palmer report identified the rounded money as indicating a rolling motion in the River. 

Edited June 19 by FLYJACK

[FLYJACK 769]

1 hour ago, Kamkisky said:

Yeah, simple physics suggests any abrasive force from rubbing along sand would take out the rubber bands along with the rotten edges of the bills. I don’t see how that could even be argued. It’s obvious. 
 

Any theory that states the bills rotted elsewhere, then floated downstream has to explain the shards. The rotted edges of the bills would be lost in any river float/sandy bottom theory.
 

Unless the claim is some minor rotting occurred first, then the river ride, then more rotting in place at Tena Bar. That takes out a lot of other theories though and leaves you with the money being somewhere just upstream rotting until it moves to Tena Bar to rot some more…but…how do the rubber bands stay on? Again, it makes no sense. The rubber bands in good condition adjust to the size of the package and when the package volume is reduce the effectiveness of the bands is reduced. How would they survive a river ride after some rotting? The bands would not is the answer. 
 
The simplest explanation is someone buried it at Tena Bar. All it requires is a reason, there are no other obstacles. The other transport methods have so many contingencies, it strains the imagination. 
 

Nope, the bundles were wet and rolling along the sandy bottom would round them off without affecting the rubber bands.

Rubber bands stay on because they are elastic and stretched, the bills were wet,, so they didn't need much impact to round them off. It makes perfect sense. It made sense to the Palmer team and it makes sense to me.

The Palmer report identified the rounded off edges as indicating a rolling motion in the River. Simple physics.

The bills did not rot elsewhere. they were rounded off tumbling along the bottom, the shards came off of the remaining stack. The shards were not from the outer edges they were from the top/bottom bills interior.

Your shards argument is invalid.

I have seen many images of buried money and none looked as uniform as the TBAR money.

I am 99% convinced the money rolled along the bottom for some length, at least a few miles.

Human burial makes no sense.. to claim it only needs a reason is a huge problem.

There is zero evidence and contradictory evidence.

 

both of you guys are using your own assumptions, not the evidence.

both you guys claim that river tumbling makes no sense or is laughable when the it is in THE PALMER REPORT.

AND the Palmer team including the hydrologist NEVER even mentioned human burial as a possibility.

Edited June 19 by FLYJACK