mrshutter45 21
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mrshutter45 21
QuoteQuoteit's not that it is impossible but, 10,000 feet is way up there from the ground! if there was broken clouds as many claim it's possible to see the plane but seeing someone on the tail of it at night is not logical IMHO.
the time frames I put up were from the transcripts around Janet's area showing the plane was at 10,000
here is my plane at 10,000 with Merwin Dam just under me and to the left.
http://s1224.photobucket.com/albums/ee380/dave767/?action=view¤t=FLIGHTVIEW.jpg
This is cool.
Do you have a picture at 7000 ft?
Like I said - I'm not saying janet's not full of it - and I doubt too that she saw "a Man" but I don't necessarily discount that she saw something illuminated against the backdrop of a plane. Just want more information. For example, minutes before in the transcripts, the plane was at 7000, the aft stair light was on and they were wondering if he's still back there. So.....it's just not as cut and dried to me.
Which brings me to.....I thought no one was sure of the exact path.....has that changed? Transcripts tell elevation, but just wondering how you determined what area the plane was over at any given time. From the transcripts I guess you'd know where they were at certain points ....but even with that there could be variations of miles, right? So are you doing all variations? Just curious. thanks
The altitude your are referring to is from the start of the flight, approx 4 minutes into the flight they are at 7000 and remain there until 7:51:31 approaching Toledo area then climb to 10,000 and hold that altitude past Portland.
"It is surprising how aggressive people get, once they latch onto their suspect and say, 'Hey, he's our guy.' No matter what you tell them, they refuse to believe you" Agent Carr FBI
smokin99 0
QuoteThe altitude your are referring to is from the start of the flight, approx 4 minutes into the flight they are at 7000 and remain there until 7:51:31 approaching Toledo area then climb to 10,000 and hold that altitude past Portland.
Right, but, according to the transcripts, the stairs were down at 7:44:22 when they were still at 7000 ft. Also, at that point they seemed not to be sure whether their friend was still with them or not so he could have been on the stairs for all they know.
At 7:51:31 they were climbing up to 10000 - going through 9000 now.
At 7:51:42 they are level at 10000. I don't know - do seconds count at those speeds?
Where did Janet live? I was under the impression that she was not that far out from takeoff point, but I might be wrong.
I believe Robert99 is absolutely correct that the transcripts are not a full and accurate portrayal of the flight path, but i guess you have to start somewhere.
but....A lie gets halfway around the world before the truth has a chance to get its pants on.....Winston Churchill
smokin99 0
QuoteI just don't see road flares "lighting up the sky"
And just to clarify the point...she didn't say anything was "lighting up the sky".
In the article where she was quoted, she states that she saw "flames.....Immediately, the fireball arched away from the platform, split into two and then disappeared in the direction of the Columbia River ".
but....A lie gets halfway around the world before the truth has a chance to get its pants on.....Winston Churchill
mrshutter45 21
QuoteQuoteThe altitude your are referring to is from the start of the flight, approx 4 minutes into the flight they are at 7000 and remain there until 7:51:31 approaching Toledo area then climb to 10,000 and hold that altitude past Portland.
Right, but, according to the transcripts, the stairs were down at 7:44:22 when they were still at 7000 ft. Also, at that point they seemed not to be sure whether their friend was still with them or not so he could have been on the stairs for all they know.
At 7:51:31 they were climbing up to 10000 - going through 9000 now.
At 7:51:42 they are level at 10000. I don't know - do seconds count at those speeds?
Where did Janet live? I was under the impression that she was not that far out from takeoff point, but I might be wrong.
I believe Robert99 is absolutely correct that the transcripts are not a full and accurate portrayal of the flight path, but i guess you have to start somewhere.
she lived in Vacouver, I forget at the moment where but Bruce Smith gave the street name after Knoss was trying to say Portland
as for the path, this is why I'm doing this and trying different versions such as what Robert is claiming, there is so much involved in this it will take a while to get everything right, or what we think is right. lots to try and sort out.
if she was correct (let's say) this would mean he jumped in Oregon and not Washington.
"It is surprising how aggressive people get, once they latch onto their suspect and say, 'Hey, he's our guy.' No matter what you tell them, they refuse to believe you" Agent Carr FBI
mrshutter45 21
according to Bruce it was Mill Plain Rd where she lived, this was along the flight path.
"Janet, who was in the passenger seat, looked up just as the car was backing out of the driveway and saw a light pass overhead. A platform or ladder below a plane caught her eye"
at 10,000 and at nite she "noticed" the stairs down? that's where she lost me.
she seems to have it backwards, you would think the flares would have caught her eye and not the stairs.
"Janet, who was in the passenger seat, looked up just as the car was backing out of the driveway and saw a light pass overhead. A platform or ladder below a plane caught her eye"
at 10,000 and at nite she "noticed" the stairs down? that's where she lost me.
she seems to have it backwards, you would think the flares would have caught her eye and not the stairs.
"It is surprising how aggressive people get, once they latch onto their suspect and say, 'Hey, he's our guy.' No matter what you tell them, they refuse to believe you" Agent Carr FBI
Seems you guys are suddenly keenly aware that just maybe something has actually been going on in the background.
My last post related my recent conversation with a man out of the past regarding an old "subject". One of the 1st Cooper suspects. His story was an interesting one and I liked the fact he actually PROVED his claim about the plagerizm. That alone made the Rest Of His Story Pausible.
Finally some of U are doing something productive in the thread and you don't seem to be bickering or smearing other posters.
Farflung makes his rare posts very to the point.
Mrsshutter45 is playing with a new toy....one that just might make others understand the flight path. Is he factoring in the speed provided by the minutes taken by the crew and those on the ground.
The maps he might be working on with in the program will not have other things factored in. I am referring to places like the VOR, old towers, old airstrips in existence in 1971, the power lines, the pipelines, old cemeteries, location the plaque on the airsteps landed, gravel pits, old rail tracks, mills, bridges, etc. Not because Duane pointed them out on our trip, but because they WERE there and could have something to do with HOW Cooper knew when to jump or how he evaded being detected once on the ground.
Could have simply have been timing, but the plane was not going at a specific speed so he had to know the area well or know more about planes than orginally thought.
I have some very old maps with lots of this stuff - but, I would have to find someone who can copy these large maps so he could overlay them over the current information (some of these things no longer exist, but recorded on the maps dating to 1971 and some before).
Blevins and Georger are even trying to communicate. Blevins is listening to logic and Georger is not nagging him.
You guys keep this up and this thread might be able to learn more about Cooper and his jump and how he just went POOF!
Cool, calm and deliberate attention to details may bring resolutions to the Cooper case the FBI had NO idea could be done. They are investigators - not pilots or jumpers or actually able to invision the terrain 41 yrs ago and the conditions.
The FBI is dealing with current crime and not this OLD STUFF!
I hope you guys make HISTORY as being instrumental in using new technolgy to solve this old case. A lot of brainstorming can happen when you put aside your difference and a lot of answers might surface. Maybe even Homid will come back! He knows the weather conditions as they existed on that night. Maybe the soft ware can even factor that in.
Farguer, Findley, Derry and Huran will take care of themselves.
Copyright 2006, 2007, 2008, 2009, 2010, 2011, 2012 2013, 2014, 2015 by Jo Weber
smokin99 0
Quoteif she was correct (let's say) this would mean he jumped in Oregon and not Washington.
lol....okay...since we're not having much luck in WA......
I'll admit it's been a while since I've looked at the maps so I'm probably not remembering correctly but I thought that the 8:10 "oscilliation/bump" put him in Oregon anyway.
but....A lie gets halfway around the world before the truth has a chance to get its pants on.....Winston Churchill
mrshutter45 21
QuoteQuoteif she was correct (let's say) this would mean he jumped in Oregon and not Washington.
lol....okay...since we're not having much luck in WA......
I'll admit it's been a while since I've looked at the maps so I'm probably not remembering correctly but I thought that the 8:10 "oscilliation/bump" put him in Oregon anyway.
the "pressure bump" was around Lake Merwin area, not around Portland or Janet's location, he could of been on the stairs a for some time I don't know. if he was timing things and Janet saw the flares you would think he would wait before jumping around PDX someone could have seen him coming down. I don't know?
"It is surprising how aggressive people get, once they latch onto their suspect and say, 'Hey, he's our guy.' No matter what you tell them, they refuse to believe you" Agent Carr FBI
QuoteThe altitude your are referring to is from the start of the flight, approx 4 minutes into the flight they are at 7000 and remain there until 7:51:31 approaching Toledo area then climb to 10,000 and hold that altitude past Portland.
Don't forget the time the pilot is speaking and the time of the note taker on the ground may not be accurate. If the pilot is giving the time with each relay that would be fine. But, the only time I have ever read was the person on the ground taking the notes. Could be one minute behind. I have tried to relate this many times over but I was never heard.
For instant - pilot makes statement to ground control he would have to state the time 1st and the ground control would have to confirm the time otherwise the time could be off as much as 1 minute.
This was an argument I had with Sluggo when they did a RE-DO of the flight path. NO one seemed to understand what I was trying to say. Hopefully this time someone will.
The pilot relays the step are down, but where they not down before 7:44:22. Hence this is all back and forth talk - no one factors in the real human side of the conversation and the time lapse between steps down and time related by pilot and then to ground.
This is why the FBI was looking for Cooper - just below Lake Merwin and not in Vancouver. Relay time was NOT taken into consideration. I am just a layman do not know who to convey this in the manner that I think, but trying. The plane is moving as the pilot speaks.
I do not understand the HOW and WHY you guys do NOT know where Janet lived. Cook gave me the location she lived at in 1971, but I don't think I can put my hands on it. I marked it on a map and believe I wrote the cross streets down - he did NOT give a specific address. Just this far from this street and this far from this street. I have the general area circled - on a map.
If I feel like finding it I will post it. I will say near Millsplains - that seems to stand out in my mind. Hard to believe Janet would look up and see what NO ONE else did.
For her to have seen the plane from her location it would have had to have been the flight BEHIND Coopers because it was on approach to land at PDX and what she saw was probably the landing light. I lived near the Airport in Atlanta for 3 yrs.
Copyright 2006, 2007, 2008, 2009, 2010, 2011, 2012 2013, 2014, 2015 by Jo Weber
smokin99 0
QuoteQuoteaccording to Bruce it was Mill Plain Rd where she lived, this was along the flight path.
"Janet, who was in the passenger seat, looked up just as the car was backing out of the driveway and saw a light pass overhead. A platform or ladder below a plane caught her eye"
at 10,000 and at nite she "noticed" the stairs down? that's where she lost me.
she seems to have it backwards, you would think the flares would have caught her eye and not the stairs.
Yeah....you would...like I said, I'm quite sure that even if she saw something it is probably selective or embellished memory - it happens to most of us over time. The point is...though, did she see something that would point to anything that might help with knowing where he jumped. Cause the choices are limited in regards to Janet. Either she's outright lying, she's delusional, she thought she saw something but really didn't, or she did see something. Or maybe she just got her dates wrong. All I'm saying is that in this case with all the weirdness that surrounds it, it would be interesting to know which option it is - without a doubt and not just someone's opinion.
So...if you can prove that you can't see a flare such as this one from 10000 feet at night and that it won't illuminate the plane even for just a couple of seconds, then I'll concede the point.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xCZXrXrN76w about halfway in.
but....A lie gets halfway around the world before the truth has a chance to get its pants on.....Winston Churchill
mrshutter45 21
I am trying to factor everything in, but, someone always throws a wrench into my plan after I think I have most of it 
flaps, speed, altitude etc, I am taking all the information in, just need to find out what information is the right information
one thing I did notice very quickly is the fact of the area around the dam to battleground and the Columbia is a very small space for a 727, they did some zig zaging in there which is like parking a semi in a compact car parking space, very tight in there. 
this is where Knoss also made a mistake by not calculating distance!
"It is surprising how aggressive people get, once they latch onto their suspect and say, 'Hey, he's our guy.' No matter what you tell them, they refuse to believe you" Agent Carr FBI
smokin99 0
QuoteDon't forget the time the pilot is speaking and the time of the note taker on the ground may not be accurate. If the pilot is giving the time with each relay that would be fine. But, the only time I have ever read was the person on the ground taking the notes. Could be one minute behind. I have tried to relate this many times over but I was never heard.
For instant - pilot makes statement to ground control he would have to state the time 1st and the ground control would have to confirm the time otherwise the time could be off as much as 1 minute.
This was an argument I had with Sluggo when they did a RE-DO of the flight path. NO one seemed to understand what I was trying to say. Hopefully this time someone will.
The pilot relays the step are down, but where they not down before 7:44:22. Hence this is all back and forth talk - no one factors in the real human side of the conversation and the time lapse between steps down and time related by pilot and then to ground.
This is why the FBI was looking for Cooper - just below Lake Merwin and not in Vancouver. Relay time was NOT taken into consideration. I am just a layman do not know who to convey this in the manner that I think, but trying. The plane is moving as the pilot speaks.
I do not understand the HOW and WHY you guys do NOT know where Janet lived. Cook gave me the location she lived at in 1971, but I don't think I can put my hands on it. I marked it on a map and believe I wrote the cross streets down - he did NOT give a specific address. Just this far from this street and this far from this street. I have the general area circled - on a map.
If I feel like finding it I will post it. I will say near Millsplains - that seems to stand out in my mind. Hard to believe Janet would look up and see what NO ONE else did.
For her to have seen the plane from her location it would have had to have been the flight BEHIND Coopers because it was on approach to land at PDX and what she saw was probably the landing light. I lived near the Airport in Atlanta for 3 yrs.
lol...I didn't know where Janet lived because I don't live and breathe DB Cooper and my memory is very selective as to what I feel the need to retain. As the other 99 pointed out, some of us have lives.
You are right when you say to take into consideration the lag time. However, and I don't know this for certain, but seems like - if they were recording - the steps recorded were in sync with a timer. I've always assumed that as he's doing, he's talking, it's being recorded/typed and the recording/teletype is timed. At least that's my assumption. I could be wrong. However it's done though, even in the 70s I would have expected a little more precision than a lag time being a minute or more.
but....A lie gets halfway around the world before the truth has a chance to get its pants on.....Winston Churchill
mrshutter45 21
the simulator has limitations, one would be not being able to tell what she saw, the clouds will not be the same as they were in 1971 I can put weather into it but not exactly as that given nite.
"It is surprising how aggressive people get, once they latch onto their suspect and say, 'Hey, he's our guy.' No matter what you tell them, they refuse to believe you" Agent Carr FBI
smokin99 0
Good point about the lag time, Jo. It is something to think about.
but....A lie gets halfway around the world before the truth has a chance to get its pants on.....Winston Churchill
[reply
]according to Bruce it was Mill Plain Rd where she lived, this was along the flight path.
]according to Bruce it was Mill Plain Rd where she lived, this was along the flight path.
Okay we got the location I ran the 2 words together. If I find the map I can give the other place that helped to pinpoint it within 2 blocks - he would NOT give a specific address. Made NO sense to me - he had his reasons I suppose.
I lived across the perimenter (large interstate multiple highway) from the Atlanta airport. My location there in College park was relevent to her location across the Columbia to the Airport in Portland. Planes coming in that low were landing and not just passing thru. I still think she saw landing lights on the plane behind the Cooper flight. Her location alone indicates that. Cook was simply trying to justify that the money find at Tena's bar. I don't know why.
He makes this stuff up as he goes....the way he finally landed on Gossett as a suspect because some young man calls him and tells him about his father kidding him about being "Cooper" while Cook was talking about Cooper on the program!
Janet is not lying - it just WAS probably NOT Cooper's plane, but the one that landed in Portland. Her memory like my own did NOT take into consideration TIME and SPACE.
She remembers the plane, but did she look at her watch and when did she know there had been a skyjacking???
If she was sure she saw a man jumping out of plane - WHY didn't she contact the FBI in 1971 as many others did because they thought the plane was in their area or flew over their house or saw a man walking with a briefcase the next morning and dressed in dress trousers and jacket with a sweater. I recieved a lot of contacts from WA residents when I went public and Margie Boule did her article...Margie filtered what she thought was important to me. I contacted 3 of them at that time. (4 individuals in one family) Only 2 of those four have since deceased. Yrs later I would be contacted by 2 others who claimed to have seen the plane.
On a hazy night the glare of the landing lights could emotionally have become a flare because she was later made aware of the skyjacking - on the news that night.
Copyright 2006, 2007, 2008, 2009, 2010, 2011, 2012 2013, 2014, 2015 by Jo Weber
The whole thing will be recorded and information saved, other words I can always go back and look at anything requested by others, I am presently in the "learning stage" of flying a 727 with up to 30 degree flaps and gear down at low speeds (not easy) Hominid has been a great help in this project I am now calling "Project 305"
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