JerryThomas 0 #29926 January 16, 2012 Robert99: Your Jealous. Jerry Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
JerryThomas 0 #29927 January 16, 2012 Robert99: Facts are those presented to me by actuall investigation an accounts of more than one person on that evening, from those that were actually there during that time frame. Not your analysis from the internet. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Robert99 60 #29928 January 16, 2012 QuoteRobert99: Your Jealous. Jerry JT, Jealous? Of what? Of whom? I don't see anything or anyone to be jealous of. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Robert99 60 #29929 January 16, 2012 QuoteRobert99: Facts are those presented to me by actuall investigation an accounts of more than one person on that evening, from those that were actually there during that time frame. Not your analysis from the internet. JT, Real facts are those that were recorded by hundreds of professional weather personnel throughout the northwest part of the US on the evening of the hijacking. They were actually there and knew what they were doing. Those facts are contained in the attachments to a recent post by Georger. The Internet is not involved or needed to understand those facts. While the opinions of you and your friends are noted, the actual facts do not support those opinions. Facts trump opinions ever time! Unfortunately, they do not support the scenario you are trying to advance. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
BobKnoss 0 #29930 January 16, 2012 QuoteI want to hear, Read, your recollections. I would like to read the whole story from start to finish, with out tangents, just a factual time line. Matt Sorry Matt. You are not qualified. Can't trust you with liable information. I'm sure you understand. You need credentials, like an authorization from Bill Rataczak for me to release the documents. I understand he has said no comment. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
BobKnoss 0 #29931 January 16, 2012 QuoteQuoteRobert99: Your Jealous. Jerry JT, Jealous? Of what? Of whom? I don't see anything or anyone to be jealous of. Well, you are totally jealous of me, Jerry. Or are you just writing me off as gone? Robert99 has more correct information than you do. You are using information from the next day that was switched, deleted records and just plain doctored information. Robert99 has done the homework on the location AND the weather. If he keeps going, and if he would consider my suggestions, he is going to have the true facts. George Nutter (Tosaw) has a few good facts, too, but some 'dead' wrong conclusions. Jo Weber used to have good information, but it is all jumbled up now. You seem to have a fact or two now and then that I recognize as significant, but you are playing a different tune than the rest of the band. You seem to know Mac, do you know Denny? Mike? Mary? Hallie? Confetti? Guadalupe? Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
skyjack71 0 #29932 January 17, 2012 QuoteQuoteI still cannot find the Bridge of the Gods on the map. .. See attached screenshot. The red bubble thing and the green arrow are both pointing at the bridge. Grab your map and find Stevenson, then follow WA Hwy14 till you hit the bridge. There are buildings in Cascade Locks. There are also a couple buildings along the loop called "Toll House Park" that leads to the bridge on the OR side (see second attachment). I think they are some kind of ranger or park service buildings. If you still cannot find the bridge on your maps, I have no further comment. Thank you thank you than you. I am in your debt. JT told me there was NO way I was at The River of the Gods and the things I described such as the motel did NOT exist. The hotel was there in 2010 and I believe it or a older version was there in 1979 - maybe it was just a park at that time...but the over-look of the river was there and we parked there...I was positive Duane I used facilities before crossing the river. Again Thank You!Copyright 2006, 2007, 2008, 2009, 2010, 2011, 2012 2013, 2014, 2015 by Jo Weber Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
skyjack71 0 #29933 January 17, 2012 Wish I felt like posting more tonight. I need to finish the trip of 1979, I don't know if I can finish the trip, but it needs to be done in its entirety - without comments from JT. We arrived at what I thought was a river, but it was Lake LaCames and Duane never corrected me. On our right was the "Mansion" and he indicated he used to know the caretaker. Just beyond that on our left we drove out toward the lake onto a point. (that area was under in 2010). A red building that was there in 2000. In 1979 this point was gravel and small trees with the remnants of a cottage (Duane told me there used to be 3). He pointed across the lake and to what I want to call East "used" to be a tower. Directly across the lake was a logging road. He indicated to the West another tower and what I now to know to have been a "feeding station' for the forestry or loggers. Pointing to the land above forested area on the South side of the lake - were farms (I could not see). My details on this part of trip have been repeated many times. After we left there we passed what is now Know as the Curry Youth Camp - shortly after this we went up a "hill". It was Clay and at the base Duane made the comment he used to know a man who lived there. In the past I have given the names of the homeland owners of that area in 1971 (again JT kept insisting his wife's family owned the property and it was a shopping center now and golf course - NOT TRUE). As we went up the narrow road to the top of the HILL, branches were down and it was scary, but Duane kept on going. At the top of this Hill (on the map it is a MT) was a large cleared area. There was a fence - wire (the kind you saw on farms in the 50's. There was a gate (my memory now will not let me remember wood or metal. Within the fenced area was stately tall old trees that seemed to be dead (it was Late Sept or Early Oct). They towered with no vegetation over large rocks and what I would call boulders scattered around the area. I have described this place before and still do as almost like a cemetary - but, they were not grave stones - just boulders scattered about. It was on this hill Duane told me about the Power Lines and Pipe lines and how they intersected at points from there. He indicated an area where there was water that went down to the Lake. From this point he indicated other things that again have been recounted in other posts. After we went off of the Hill we went back the way we came and as we passed a point just before getting to the lake again, he made a remark just as we passed a covert where a tributary or drainage went into LaCames Lake. His remark we all know and it was the only time he mentioned Cooper. I took it as a joke, but something inside of me knew I needed to remember where we where and why I noted the name of the road as we entered another road on which we turned right and this is when he took me on the other side of the "river" and this is what Confuses JT (my reference of "river" because this DODO thought she was on a river), At any rate this is when he pulls up to and stopped at an old farm house and told me he used to know the man who lived there (no vehicles were there and no one seemed to be home). His comment was the man had 2 sons about his age. The man who did live there did have 2 sons about Duane's age...this I found out before I went to WA in 2010. Facing the house was a cement building or remnant of. on the left side of the house - I thought milking station, since there were lots of cattle in the area. The old house was still there in 2001 and in 2010 before I went out. - the only OLD house left in the area and was being sold and did sell. I would later locate current owner in 2010 and was given the history of the land. Property was the old homestead of Bafus. I knew this was correct because when Duane told me the man's name - Bafus registered as Rufus to me because I have an uncle by that name. Duane corrected me - NO, Bafus - starting with a B. We end up on a road going North and he indicated an airstrip on our left that I could not see from the road. It was right after the airstrip we turned - he hesitated and thought he had the wrong road - but he was on the road that took us back to Washougal. Tomorrow I will try to cover where he took me in Washougal and then on up to 500 and north of there.Copyright 2006, 2007, 2008, 2009, 2010, 2011, 2012 2013, 2014, 2015 by Jo Weber Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
georger 267 #29934 January 17, 2012 Your own word is just not good enough, Mr Knoss. Your 'Cooper Case' is hereby dismissed on the following grounds...(you guessed it)... LACK OF EVIDENCE. Two zeroes, discussing-abusing each other over - the meanings and portents of "zero"! Velly inter'estink! Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
georger 267 #29935 January 17, 2012 QuoteQuoteRobert99: Facts are those presented to me by actuall investigation an accounts of more than one person on that evening, from those that were actually there during that time frame. Not your analysis from the internet. JT, Real facts are those that were recorded by hundreds of professional weather personnel throughout the northwest part of the US on the evening of the hijacking. They were actually there and knew what they were doing. Those facts are contained in the attachments to a recent post by Georger. The Internet is not involved or needed to understand those facts. While the opinions of you and your friends are noted, the actual facts do not support those opinions. Facts trump opinions ever time! Unfortunately, they do not support the scenario you are trying to advance. Would you settle for reports from small and large airport managers, pilots reports who came in that day in the areas affected, reports filed, and small community weather records/reports? Are you and Blevins calling Bohan a liar? Blevins has name-dropped Rataczak a lot in this forum, almost as if they are good friends!, he says after numerous interviews of Rataczak by Blevins & Porteous. Nery a word in all of Blevins' Rataczack commentary about weather during the flight. I wonder why. Did they just forget? Hey Bruce! Interview Rataczack about the weather during the trip. Blevins & Porteous forgot to. Back to basics - Do you know Bohan and his fellow crew members have been interviewed? Do you know Bohan was a good friend of Hastings, manager of PDX? Do you know an FAA reportwas filed? Do you know that several professionals were hired to go over the weather records (for the areas affected) that day. Do you know their reports exist? What happened to Sluggo? Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
georger 267 #29936 January 17, 2012 Quote Georger says in part: Quote 'Blevins has name-dropped Rataczak a lot in this forum, almost as if they are good friends!, he says after numerous interviews of Rataczak by Blevins & Porteous. Nery a word in all of their Rataczack reports about weather during the flight. I wonder why. Did they just forget? Hey Bruce! Interview Rataczack about the weather during the trip. Blevins & Porteous forgot to...' It was never our intention to interview him on the weather. Bruce doing it? Why not. Sounds good to me. We interviewed him on two main things: What he could tell us about the hijacking itself, and whether the crew knew for sure WHEN Cooper jumped from the plane. The weather...we already had a pretty good idea about it. No use being redundant. If 305 had been running into severe headwinds or flying through a heavy storm, it would have become part of the Cooper legend by now. Yet, people keep trying to invent The Big Northwest Cooper Storm that never actually existed. It's probably a given that here and there the winds may have been a bit higher, or the rain a bit heavier. But except for around the Gorge area, there is no way that around 8PM on November 24, 1971 you could call it a 'storm'. You should know this, Georger. You've lived here. When we get fall storms, as you know, trees fall down, power goes out, and it's all over the news. NONE of those things happened on that day. If there were any 'events' they would be extremely localized. Porteous has spoken to Rataczak a few times. Me, just once. And I'd say Tina Mucklow's name has been 'dropped' here a lot more than Rataczak's. No reply possible - Illiterate. Processing malfunction. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
BruceSmith 3 #29937 January 17, 2012 Hey Bruce! Interview Rataczack about the weather during the trip. Blevins & Porteous forgot to. Quote Bill ain't returning my phone calls or emails, and hasn't for a year or so. As for the weather, we spoke about it briefly during our one phone conversation. I had asked Bill if the pressure bump could have been caused by stormy weather and wiind pushing the stairs back up towards the fuselage. As I recall, he discounted that notion, but did acknowledge that the weather that night was a little "bumpy," or words to that effect. I find it curious that the weather so hard to pin down. On one hand we have the relative calm of the meterological reports and on the other Bohan, Meyer, Dona Elliott and others discussing seemingly near-gale-force blasts. Could this be a sign of highly localized, brief storm activity - a micro burst or something akin? Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites georger 267 #29938 January 17, 2012 QuoteHey Bruce! Interview Rataczack about the weather during the trip. Blevins & Porteous forgot to. Quote Bill ain't returning my phone calls or emails, and hasn't for a year or so. As for the weather, we spoke about it briefly during our one phone conversation. I had asked Bill if the pressure bump could have been caused by stormy weather and wiind pushing the stairs back up towards the fuselage. As I recall, he discounted that notion, but did acknowledge that the weather that night was a little "bumpy," or words to that effect. I find it curious that the weather so hard to pin down. On one hand we have the relative calm of the meterological reports and on the other Bohan, Meyer, Dona Elliott and others discussing seemingly near-gale-force blasts. Could this be a sign of highly localized, brief storm activity - a micro burst or something akin? Simply put, yes. On the backside of a rather fast moving occluded front that had formed earlier in the week, began moving across Washington-Oregon on Tuesday out of the Pacific, moved across Washington-Oregon the day of the 24th and slowed over Idaho, then spread out and began to weaken on Thursday .. I think there were residual cells still lingering as far west and in the vicinity of V23 in Washington, on the 24th and sporadic turbulence associated with some of those cells, with the merging of large warm and cold air masses on the backside of that occluded front. This could account for the various localised reports of quick-passing turulence and squals in certain areas along with more stable conditions noted further west and south, behind the occluded front already passed. That is as much as Im willing to risk saying here. I already know I will be attacked with this much! In the end one must account for all of the data which includes local personal reports of the day. These local reports from a variety of areas made throughout the day of Nov 24 1971 are credible. Here are a few maps. Have at it. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites georger 267 #29939 January 17, 2012 QuoteThose maps are from the day BEFORE the hijacking. How about the ones from the day OF the hijacking? Twenty-four hours is a LONG time for Washington weather. Haven't you heard that old saying about the Evergreen State? Quote'Don't like the weather in Washington? Just wait around a few minutes. It'll change...' Look at the "maps" and read their dates - idiot. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites matthewcline 0 #29940 January 17, 2012 QuoteQuoteI want to hear, Read, your recollections. I would like to read the whole story from start to finish, with out tangents, just a factual time line. Matt Sorry Matt. You are not qualified. Can't trust you with liable information. I'm sure you understand. You need credentials, like an authorization from Bill Rataczak for me to release the documents. I understand he has said no comment. BS, I did not ask for that, I asked for your MEMORY of the events. Other wise it is just LSD induced lies. You now what LSD is, right? MattAn Instructors first concern is student safety. So, start being safe, first!!! Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites georger 267 #29941 January 17, 2012 QuoteQuoteHey Bruce! Interview Rataczack about the weather during the trip. Blevins & Porteous forgot to. Quote Bill ain't returning my phone calls or emails, and hasn't for a year or so. As for the weather, we spoke about it briefly during our one phone conversation. I had asked Bill if the pressure bump could have been caused by stormy weather and wiind pushing the stairs back up towards the fuselage. As I recall, he discounted that notion, but did acknowledge that the weather that night was a little "bumpy," or words to that effect. I find it curious that the weather so hard to pin down. On one hand we have the relative calm of the meterological reports and on the other Bohan, Meyer, Dona Elliott and others discussing seemingly near-gale-force blasts. Could this be a sign of highly localized, brief storm activity - a micro burst or something akin? Simply put, yes. On the backside of a rather fast moving occluded front that had formed earlier in the week, began moving across Washington-Oregon on Tuesday out of the Pacific, moved across Washington-Oregon the day of the 24th and slowed over Idaho, then spread out and began to weaken on Thursday .. I think there were residual cells still lingering as far west and in the vicinity of V23 in Washington, on the 24th and sporadic turbulence associated with some of those cells, with the merging of large warm and cold air masses on the backside of that occluded front. This could account for the various localised reports of quick-passing turulence and squals in certain areas along with more stable conditions noted further west and south, behind the occluded front already passed. That is as much as Im willing to risk saying here. I already know I will be attacked with this much! In the end one must account for all of the data which includes local personal reports of the day. These local reports from a variety of areas made throughout the day of Nov 24 1971 are credible. Here are a few maps. Have at it. Another clue mentioned before, but ignored, are the wind shifts registered at Portland itself, the day of the hijacking. See attached data from Weather Underground. From midnight of the 23rd until noon on the 24th there was a very regular oscillation of wind direction between South - SSW - and SSE. That all changed abruptly about noon. The wind suddenly began a steady shift toward the east until by 7:00pm the wind was virtually coming from the east. The trend line between noon and 7:00 is very clear. Then almost as abruptly , sometime after 7:00 pm, perhaps between 7:00 and 8:00pm, the wind changes again trending back toward the south. To some extent this data contradicts the data previously presented by Ckret and others, as I understand it, especially as regards a stable unchanging scenario for winds in and around the potential bailout time in the vicinity of Portland. The evidence of wind shift is right there in the Portland data others have presented but claimed a stable unchanging scenario. The trend lines and the fact of oscillation changing to a dramatic shift in the trend line and direction between 7:00 and 8:00pm is very clear, as represented in the Portland data. You cannot ignore the wind change data if Cooper bailed anywhere near Portland during the period of a wind shift... This sets the stage for further 'considerations' - based in hard documented evidence to be presented later. Have a nice day! Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites Robert99 60 #29942 January 17, 2012 QuoteQuoteQuoteHey Bruce! Interview Rataczack about the weather during the trip. Blevins & Porteous forgot to. Quote Bill ain't returning my phone calls or emails, and hasn't for a year or so. As for the weather, we spoke about it briefly during our one phone conversation. I had asked Bill if the pressure bump could have been caused by stormy weather and wiind pushing the stairs back up towards the fuselage. As I recall, he discounted that notion, but did acknowledge that the weather that night was a little "bumpy," or words to that effect. I find it curious that the weather so hard to pin down. On one hand we have the relative calm of the meterological reports and on the other Bohan, Meyer, Dona Elliott and others discussing seemingly near-gale-force blasts. Could this be a sign of highly localized, brief storm activity - a micro burst or something akin? Simply put, yes. On the backside of a rather fast moving occluded front that had formed earlier in the week, began moving across Washington-Oregon on Tuesday out of the Pacific, moved across Washington-Oregon the day of the 24th and slowed over Idaho, then spread out and began to weaken on Thursday .. I think there were residual cells still lingering as far west and in the vicinity of V23 in Washington, on the 24th and sporadic turbulence associated with some of those cells, with the merging of large warm and cold air masses on the backside of that occluded front. This could account for the various localised reports of quick-passing turulence and squals in certain areas along with more stable conditions noted further west and south, behind the occluded front already passed. That is as much as Im willing to risk saying here. I already know I will be attacked with this much! In the end one must account for all of the data which includes local personal reports of the day. These local reports from a variety of areas made throughout the day of Nov 24 1971 are credible. Here are a few maps. Have at it. Another clue mentioned before, but ignored, are the wind shifts registered at Portland itself, the day of the hijacking. See attached data from Weather Underground. From midnight of the 23rd until noon on the 24th there was a very regular oscillation of wind direction between South - SSW - and SSE. That all changed abruptly about noon. The wind suddenly began a steady shift toward the east until by 7:00pm the wind was virtually coming from the east. The trend line between noon and 7:00 is very clear. Then almost as abruptly , sometime after 7:00 pm, perhaps between 7:00 and 8:00pm, the wind changes again trending back toward the south. To some extent this data contradicts the data previously presented by Ckret and others, as I understand it. The trend lines and the fact of oscillation changing to a dramatic shift in the trend line and direction between 7:00 and 8:00pm is very clear, as represented in the Portland data. You cannot ignore the wind change data if Cooper bailed anywhere near Portland during the period of a wind shift... Georger, First let me thank you for putting those hourly sequence reports and winds aloft on the thread a few days ago. And contrary to your statement, those are the first such documents that I have seen from you. Also, keep in mind that some detailed analyses of those documents are going to show up on this thread. Now to your specific comments on the wind direction on November 24, 1971. You should also take a look at the wind speed for that same time period. From 4 to 7 PM, the ground wind speed at Portland was 4 MPH or less while the wind direction is given as generally from the southeast. By about 8:30 PM, the surface wind had picked up to about 8 MPH and generally from the south. For all practical purposes, the Portland surface wind could be described as "light and variable" for the period from 4 to 8:30 PM (by which time the airliner was south of Portland). Captain Bohan's famous 30 knot cross wind is nowhere to be seen. The maps that you sent earlier today are for the surface, correct? Take a look at the wind directions on those maps. Do they support your statements? From a fast look at all the weather information you have sent in the last few days, I see nothing in the information that is not consistent within itself. On the subject of "micro-bursts", they are associated with convective weather phenomena such as thunderstorms. There is not going to be a micro-burst on a cold winter night in Portland when the air mass is essentially stable and convection non-existent. Please do post online anything you may have from experts that contradicts the National Weather Service's reports and forecasts. I have always wanted to meet an "expert", at least one who knew what he was talking about, and if I ever do meet one my life will be over. I will have seen all the sights and have nothing further to live for. For one and all, I suggest that you visit the FAA Publications page on the Internet and check out the publication "Aviation Weather AC 00-6A", which may be available for a free download. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites mrshutter45 21 #29943 January 17, 2012 A microburst is a downward thrust of air that is a threat to aircraft at low levels, the danger is at take off and landings with surrounding storms. (see photo) They are now associated with Hurricanes after showing signs of microburst's durring Hurricane Wilma."It is surprising how aggressive people get, once they latch onto their suspect and say, 'Hey, he's our guy.' No matter what you tell them, they refuse to believe you" Agent Carr FBI Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites Robert99 60 #29944 January 17, 2012 QuoteA microburst is a downward thrust of air that is a threat to aircraft at low levels, the danger is at take off and landings with surrounding storms. (see photo) They are now associated with Hurricanes after showing signs of microburst's durring Hurricane Wilma. Tornados are also associated with some conditions related to hurricanes. Tornados and severe thunderstorms seem to have some type of structure that, at times, produces the micro-burst which heads for the ground. When it hits the ground at high velocity the winds radiate in a 360 degree fashion. You have probably seen pictures of micro-bursts that hit in wooded areas with the result that trees are downed and all pointed away from the point where the wind hit the ground. A number of airliner accidents have been caused by micro-bursts including a well documented one immediately adjacent to the New Orleans airport a number of years ago as the airliner took off. Another well known accident happened at the DFW airport a number of years ago during landing when a L-1011 was litterly scoured out of the sky short of the runway. This accident was definitely weather related but I don't specifically remember if it was a micro-burst (if it wasn't, it was something similiar to one). Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites mrshutter45 21 #29945 January 17, 2012 QuoteQuoteA microburst is a downward thrust of air that is a threat to aircraft at low levels, the danger is at take off and landings with surrounding storms. (see photo) They are now associated with Hurricanes after showing signs of microburst's durring Hurricane Wilma. Tornados are also associated with some conditions related to hurricanes. Tornados and severe thunderstorms seem to have some type of structure that, at times, produces the micro-burst which heads for the ground. When it hits the ground at high velocity the winds radiate in a 360 degree fashion. You have probably seen pictures of micro-bursts that hit in wooded areas with the result that trees are downed and all pointed away from the point where the wind hit the ground. A number of airliner accidents have been caused by micro-bursts including a well documented one immediately adjacent to the New Orleans airport a number of years ago as the airliner took off. Another well known accident happened at the DFW airport a number of years ago during landing when a L-1011 was litterly scoured out of the sky short of the runway. This accident was definitely weather related but I don't specifically remember if it was a micro-burst (if it wasn't, it was something similiar to one). yes but during Wilma signs of microburst's were everywhere, since that storm alot of minds have been changed from (mini Tornadoes) to a microburst causing the damage. I have been in many Hurricanes and during Wilma there was alot of damage due to them, I took a picture of a house that had extensive damage to the back and sides of the house, and no other damage like this on the surrounding homes, the picture does not show very much detail but the bolts that secure the Hurricane shutters where pushed in a downward position like I have never seen before! these bolts were rated at 150 mph (3 second gust)at pressures I'm not sure of at the moment but the wind ripped the shutter right off the house! and the front yard and surrounding area had little damage, the shutters were secure on the front of the house and the back and side were missing along with the fence in the backyard to the ceiling fan on the porch was destroyed."It is surprising how aggressive people get, once they latch onto their suspect and say, 'Hey, he's our guy.' No matter what you tell them, they refuse to believe you" Agent Carr FBI Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites 377 22 #29946 January 17, 2012 QuoteQuoteA microburst is a downward thrust of air that is a threat to aircraft at low levels, the danger is at take off and landings with surrounding storms. (see photo) They are now associated with Hurricanes after showing signs of microburst's durring Hurricane Wilma. Tornados are also associated with some conditions related to hurricanes. Tornados and severe thunderstorms seem to have some type of structure that, at times, produces the micro-burst which heads for the ground. When it hits the ground at high velocity the winds radiate in a 360 degree fashion. You have probably seen pictures of micro-bursts that hit in wooded areas with the result that trees are downed and all pointed away from the point where the wind hit the ground. A number of airliner accidents have been caused by micro-bursts including a well documented one immediately adjacent to the New Orleans airport a number of years ago as the airliner took off. Another well known accident happened at the DFW airport a number of years ago during landing when a L-1011 was litterly scoured out of the sky short of the runway. This accident was definitely weather related but I don't specifically remember if it was a micro-burst (if it wasn't, it was something similiar to one). The L1011 that crashed at DFW in 1985 encountered microburst induced wind shear. The NTSB criticized the crew's decision to continue an approach into a cumulonimbus cloud with visible lightning. From NTSB CVR analysis: At 18:04:18, the first officer said, "Lightning coming out of that one." The captain asked, "What?" and the first officer repeated "Lightning coming out of that one." The captain asked, and at 18:04:23, the first officer replied, "Right ahead of us." Flight 191 continued descending along the final approach course. from NTSB: "PROBABLE CAUSE: "The flight crew's decision to initiate and continue the approach into a cumulonimbus cloud which they observed to contain visible lightning; the lack of specific guidelines, procedures and training for avoiding and escaping from low-level windshear; and the lack of definitive, real-time windshear hazard information. This resulted in the aircraft's encounter at low altitude with a microburst-induced, severe windshear from a rapidly developing thunderstorm located on the final approach course." 3772018 marks half a century as a skydiver. Trained by the late Perry Stevens D-51 in 1968. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites georger 267 #29947 January 17, 2012 Please do post online anything you may have from experts that contradicts the National Weather Service's reports and forecasts. I have always wanted to meet an "expert", at least one who knew what he was talking about, and if I ever do meet one my life will be over. I will have seen all the sights and have nothing further to live for. . I posted the 500 millibar charts. 850 and 700 mb inferences can be made and it is my belief Ckrets' 30 knots at 10,000ft came from just such an inference - which one person here already alluded to previously. Larry didnt make the calculation - he knows next to nothing about these matters - but he found something in the files which allowed him to make the statement ... somebody did the calcs back in 71-72, maybe somebody at NWA we all know ? But the calc came from someone. Larry had some foundation for his remark(s). Point is these 500mb charts have implications for potential ground speeds behind an occluded front, as I understand these matters. And yes the charts are the surface chart for the date at 7AM EST. Later ... But you need to come to grips with the ground and pilot reports being real - not imagined. Something explains them. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites skyjack71 0 #29948 January 18, 2012 Quote What happened to Sluggo? I like other have not heard from him. Has anyone check the OBITS? Sluggo was a heavy set man with multiple health problems, so maybe he is not with us anymore or maybe he just lost interest after all of these yrs. Sure wish he would POP in with a comment and let us know he is ALIVE and Well.Copyright 2006, 2007, 2008, 2009, 2010, 2011, 2012 2013, 2014, 2015 by Jo Weber Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites mrshutter45 21 #29949 January 18, 2012 Quote Quote What happened to Sluggo? I like other have not heard from him. Has anyone check the OBITS? Sluggo was a heavy set man with multiple health problems, so maybe he is not with us anymore or maybe he just lost interest after all of these yrs. Sure wish he would POP in with a comment and let us know he is ALIVE and Well. what is Sluggo's real name?"It is surprising how aggressive people get, once they latch onto their suspect and say, 'Hey, he's our guy.' No matter what you tell them, they refuse to believe you" Agent Carr FBI Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites skyjack71 0 #29950 January 18, 2012 Georger stated: Quote No reply possible - Illiterate. Processing malfunction. Blevins Relates: Illiterate? Surely you jest. I edit books in my spare time, you know. Have been for years, with many successful clients. I lost count how many after twenty or so. That puts me a bit beyond the category of 'illiterate', thank you. Don't make me point you to the web page again...Illiterate, indeed. This is getting absolutely hilariously ridiculous! Belvins, Georger was nipping at your heels and got exactly the reaction we have all come to expect. You bowed up your back like a CAT and hisssed. Like a CAT you continuely stalk your prey which is nothing more than a ball of twine. The ball of twine has a name "Blast". The real prey is a mouse. No one will get this but me - and that is OK!Copyright 2006, 2007, 2008, 2009, 2010, 2011, 2012 2013, 2014, 2015 by Jo Weber Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites Prev 1193 1194 1195 1196 1197 1198 1199 1200 1201 1202 1203 Next Page 1198 of 2610 Join the conversation You can post now and register later. If you have an account, sign in now to post with your account. Note: Your post will require moderator approval before it will be visible. Reply to this topic... × Pasted as rich text. Paste as plain text instead Only 75 emoji are allowed. × Your link has been automatically embedded. Display as a link instead × Your previous content has been restored. Clear editor × You cannot paste images directly. Upload or insert images from URL. Insert image from URL × Desktop Tablet Phone Submit Reply 52 52 Go To Topic Listing
georger 267 #29938 January 17, 2012 QuoteHey Bruce! Interview Rataczack about the weather during the trip. Blevins & Porteous forgot to. Quote Bill ain't returning my phone calls or emails, and hasn't for a year or so. As for the weather, we spoke about it briefly during our one phone conversation. I had asked Bill if the pressure bump could have been caused by stormy weather and wiind pushing the stairs back up towards the fuselage. As I recall, he discounted that notion, but did acknowledge that the weather that night was a little "bumpy," or words to that effect. I find it curious that the weather so hard to pin down. On one hand we have the relative calm of the meterological reports and on the other Bohan, Meyer, Dona Elliott and others discussing seemingly near-gale-force blasts. Could this be a sign of highly localized, brief storm activity - a micro burst or something akin? Simply put, yes. On the backside of a rather fast moving occluded front that had formed earlier in the week, began moving across Washington-Oregon on Tuesday out of the Pacific, moved across Washington-Oregon the day of the 24th and slowed over Idaho, then spread out and began to weaken on Thursday .. I think there were residual cells still lingering as far west and in the vicinity of V23 in Washington, on the 24th and sporadic turbulence associated with some of those cells, with the merging of large warm and cold air masses on the backside of that occluded front. This could account for the various localised reports of quick-passing turulence and squals in certain areas along with more stable conditions noted further west and south, behind the occluded front already passed. That is as much as Im willing to risk saying here. I already know I will be attacked with this much! In the end one must account for all of the data which includes local personal reports of the day. These local reports from a variety of areas made throughout the day of Nov 24 1971 are credible. Here are a few maps. Have at it. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites georger 267 #29939 January 17, 2012 QuoteThose maps are from the day BEFORE the hijacking. How about the ones from the day OF the hijacking? Twenty-four hours is a LONG time for Washington weather. Haven't you heard that old saying about the Evergreen State? Quote'Don't like the weather in Washington? Just wait around a few minutes. It'll change...' Look at the "maps" and read their dates - idiot. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites matthewcline 0 #29940 January 17, 2012 QuoteQuoteI want to hear, Read, your recollections. I would like to read the whole story from start to finish, with out tangents, just a factual time line. Matt Sorry Matt. You are not qualified. Can't trust you with liable information. I'm sure you understand. You need credentials, like an authorization from Bill Rataczak for me to release the documents. I understand he has said no comment. BS, I did not ask for that, I asked for your MEMORY of the events. Other wise it is just LSD induced lies. You now what LSD is, right? MattAn Instructors first concern is student safety. So, start being safe, first!!! Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites georger 267 #29941 January 17, 2012 QuoteQuoteHey Bruce! Interview Rataczack about the weather during the trip. Blevins & Porteous forgot to. Quote Bill ain't returning my phone calls or emails, and hasn't for a year or so. As for the weather, we spoke about it briefly during our one phone conversation. I had asked Bill if the pressure bump could have been caused by stormy weather and wiind pushing the stairs back up towards the fuselage. As I recall, he discounted that notion, but did acknowledge that the weather that night was a little "bumpy," or words to that effect. I find it curious that the weather so hard to pin down. On one hand we have the relative calm of the meterological reports and on the other Bohan, Meyer, Dona Elliott and others discussing seemingly near-gale-force blasts. Could this be a sign of highly localized, brief storm activity - a micro burst or something akin? Simply put, yes. On the backside of a rather fast moving occluded front that had formed earlier in the week, began moving across Washington-Oregon on Tuesday out of the Pacific, moved across Washington-Oregon the day of the 24th and slowed over Idaho, then spread out and began to weaken on Thursday .. I think there were residual cells still lingering as far west and in the vicinity of V23 in Washington, on the 24th and sporadic turbulence associated with some of those cells, with the merging of large warm and cold air masses on the backside of that occluded front. This could account for the various localised reports of quick-passing turulence and squals in certain areas along with more stable conditions noted further west and south, behind the occluded front already passed. That is as much as Im willing to risk saying here. I already know I will be attacked with this much! In the end one must account for all of the data which includes local personal reports of the day. These local reports from a variety of areas made throughout the day of Nov 24 1971 are credible. Here are a few maps. Have at it. Another clue mentioned before, but ignored, are the wind shifts registered at Portland itself, the day of the hijacking. See attached data from Weather Underground. From midnight of the 23rd until noon on the 24th there was a very regular oscillation of wind direction between South - SSW - and SSE. That all changed abruptly about noon. The wind suddenly began a steady shift toward the east until by 7:00pm the wind was virtually coming from the east. The trend line between noon and 7:00 is very clear. Then almost as abruptly , sometime after 7:00 pm, perhaps between 7:00 and 8:00pm, the wind changes again trending back toward the south. To some extent this data contradicts the data previously presented by Ckret and others, as I understand it, especially as regards a stable unchanging scenario for winds in and around the potential bailout time in the vicinity of Portland. The evidence of wind shift is right there in the Portland data others have presented but claimed a stable unchanging scenario. The trend lines and the fact of oscillation changing to a dramatic shift in the trend line and direction between 7:00 and 8:00pm is very clear, as represented in the Portland data. You cannot ignore the wind change data if Cooper bailed anywhere near Portland during the period of a wind shift... This sets the stage for further 'considerations' - based in hard documented evidence to be presented later. Have a nice day! Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites Robert99 60 #29942 January 17, 2012 QuoteQuoteQuoteHey Bruce! Interview Rataczack about the weather during the trip. Blevins & Porteous forgot to. Quote Bill ain't returning my phone calls or emails, and hasn't for a year or so. As for the weather, we spoke about it briefly during our one phone conversation. I had asked Bill if the pressure bump could have been caused by stormy weather and wiind pushing the stairs back up towards the fuselage. As I recall, he discounted that notion, but did acknowledge that the weather that night was a little "bumpy," or words to that effect. I find it curious that the weather so hard to pin down. On one hand we have the relative calm of the meterological reports and on the other Bohan, Meyer, Dona Elliott and others discussing seemingly near-gale-force blasts. Could this be a sign of highly localized, brief storm activity - a micro burst or something akin? Simply put, yes. On the backside of a rather fast moving occluded front that had formed earlier in the week, began moving across Washington-Oregon on Tuesday out of the Pacific, moved across Washington-Oregon the day of the 24th and slowed over Idaho, then spread out and began to weaken on Thursday .. I think there were residual cells still lingering as far west and in the vicinity of V23 in Washington, on the 24th and sporadic turbulence associated with some of those cells, with the merging of large warm and cold air masses on the backside of that occluded front. This could account for the various localised reports of quick-passing turulence and squals in certain areas along with more stable conditions noted further west and south, behind the occluded front already passed. That is as much as Im willing to risk saying here. I already know I will be attacked with this much! In the end one must account for all of the data which includes local personal reports of the day. These local reports from a variety of areas made throughout the day of Nov 24 1971 are credible. Here are a few maps. Have at it. Another clue mentioned before, but ignored, are the wind shifts registered at Portland itself, the day of the hijacking. See attached data from Weather Underground. From midnight of the 23rd until noon on the 24th there was a very regular oscillation of wind direction between South - SSW - and SSE. That all changed abruptly about noon. The wind suddenly began a steady shift toward the east until by 7:00pm the wind was virtually coming from the east. The trend line between noon and 7:00 is very clear. Then almost as abruptly , sometime after 7:00 pm, perhaps between 7:00 and 8:00pm, the wind changes again trending back toward the south. To some extent this data contradicts the data previously presented by Ckret and others, as I understand it. The trend lines and the fact of oscillation changing to a dramatic shift in the trend line and direction between 7:00 and 8:00pm is very clear, as represented in the Portland data. You cannot ignore the wind change data if Cooper bailed anywhere near Portland during the period of a wind shift... Georger, First let me thank you for putting those hourly sequence reports and winds aloft on the thread a few days ago. And contrary to your statement, those are the first such documents that I have seen from you. Also, keep in mind that some detailed analyses of those documents are going to show up on this thread. Now to your specific comments on the wind direction on November 24, 1971. You should also take a look at the wind speed for that same time period. From 4 to 7 PM, the ground wind speed at Portland was 4 MPH or less while the wind direction is given as generally from the southeast. By about 8:30 PM, the surface wind had picked up to about 8 MPH and generally from the south. For all practical purposes, the Portland surface wind could be described as "light and variable" for the period from 4 to 8:30 PM (by which time the airliner was south of Portland). Captain Bohan's famous 30 knot cross wind is nowhere to be seen. The maps that you sent earlier today are for the surface, correct? Take a look at the wind directions on those maps. Do they support your statements? From a fast look at all the weather information you have sent in the last few days, I see nothing in the information that is not consistent within itself. On the subject of "micro-bursts", they are associated with convective weather phenomena such as thunderstorms. There is not going to be a micro-burst on a cold winter night in Portland when the air mass is essentially stable and convection non-existent. Please do post online anything you may have from experts that contradicts the National Weather Service's reports and forecasts. I have always wanted to meet an "expert", at least one who knew what he was talking about, and if I ever do meet one my life will be over. I will have seen all the sights and have nothing further to live for. For one and all, I suggest that you visit the FAA Publications page on the Internet and check out the publication "Aviation Weather AC 00-6A", which may be available for a free download. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites mrshutter45 21 #29943 January 17, 2012 A microburst is a downward thrust of air that is a threat to aircraft at low levels, the danger is at take off and landings with surrounding storms. (see photo) They are now associated with Hurricanes after showing signs of microburst's durring Hurricane Wilma."It is surprising how aggressive people get, once they latch onto their suspect and say, 'Hey, he's our guy.' No matter what you tell them, they refuse to believe you" Agent Carr FBI Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites Robert99 60 #29944 January 17, 2012 QuoteA microburst is a downward thrust of air that is a threat to aircraft at low levels, the danger is at take off and landings with surrounding storms. (see photo) They are now associated with Hurricanes after showing signs of microburst's durring Hurricane Wilma. Tornados are also associated with some conditions related to hurricanes. Tornados and severe thunderstorms seem to have some type of structure that, at times, produces the micro-burst which heads for the ground. When it hits the ground at high velocity the winds radiate in a 360 degree fashion. You have probably seen pictures of micro-bursts that hit in wooded areas with the result that trees are downed and all pointed away from the point where the wind hit the ground. A number of airliner accidents have been caused by micro-bursts including a well documented one immediately adjacent to the New Orleans airport a number of years ago as the airliner took off. Another well known accident happened at the DFW airport a number of years ago during landing when a L-1011 was litterly scoured out of the sky short of the runway. This accident was definitely weather related but I don't specifically remember if it was a micro-burst (if it wasn't, it was something similiar to one). Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites mrshutter45 21 #29945 January 17, 2012 QuoteQuoteA microburst is a downward thrust of air that is a threat to aircraft at low levels, the danger is at take off and landings with surrounding storms. (see photo) They are now associated with Hurricanes after showing signs of microburst's durring Hurricane Wilma. Tornados are also associated with some conditions related to hurricanes. Tornados and severe thunderstorms seem to have some type of structure that, at times, produces the micro-burst which heads for the ground. When it hits the ground at high velocity the winds radiate in a 360 degree fashion. You have probably seen pictures of micro-bursts that hit in wooded areas with the result that trees are downed and all pointed away from the point where the wind hit the ground. A number of airliner accidents have been caused by micro-bursts including a well documented one immediately adjacent to the New Orleans airport a number of years ago as the airliner took off. Another well known accident happened at the DFW airport a number of years ago during landing when a L-1011 was litterly scoured out of the sky short of the runway. This accident was definitely weather related but I don't specifically remember if it was a micro-burst (if it wasn't, it was something similiar to one). yes but during Wilma signs of microburst's were everywhere, since that storm alot of minds have been changed from (mini Tornadoes) to a microburst causing the damage. I have been in many Hurricanes and during Wilma there was alot of damage due to them, I took a picture of a house that had extensive damage to the back and sides of the house, and no other damage like this on the surrounding homes, the picture does not show very much detail but the bolts that secure the Hurricane shutters where pushed in a downward position like I have never seen before! these bolts were rated at 150 mph (3 second gust)at pressures I'm not sure of at the moment but the wind ripped the shutter right off the house! and the front yard and surrounding area had little damage, the shutters were secure on the front of the house and the back and side were missing along with the fence in the backyard to the ceiling fan on the porch was destroyed."It is surprising how aggressive people get, once they latch onto their suspect and say, 'Hey, he's our guy.' No matter what you tell them, they refuse to believe you" Agent Carr FBI Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites 377 22 #29946 January 17, 2012 QuoteQuoteA microburst is a downward thrust of air that is a threat to aircraft at low levels, the danger is at take off and landings with surrounding storms. (see photo) They are now associated with Hurricanes after showing signs of microburst's durring Hurricane Wilma. Tornados are also associated with some conditions related to hurricanes. Tornados and severe thunderstorms seem to have some type of structure that, at times, produces the micro-burst which heads for the ground. When it hits the ground at high velocity the winds radiate in a 360 degree fashion. You have probably seen pictures of micro-bursts that hit in wooded areas with the result that trees are downed and all pointed away from the point where the wind hit the ground. A number of airliner accidents have been caused by micro-bursts including a well documented one immediately adjacent to the New Orleans airport a number of years ago as the airliner took off. Another well known accident happened at the DFW airport a number of years ago during landing when a L-1011 was litterly scoured out of the sky short of the runway. This accident was definitely weather related but I don't specifically remember if it was a micro-burst (if it wasn't, it was something similiar to one). The L1011 that crashed at DFW in 1985 encountered microburst induced wind shear. The NTSB criticized the crew's decision to continue an approach into a cumulonimbus cloud with visible lightning. From NTSB CVR analysis: At 18:04:18, the first officer said, "Lightning coming out of that one." The captain asked, "What?" and the first officer repeated "Lightning coming out of that one." The captain asked, and at 18:04:23, the first officer replied, "Right ahead of us." Flight 191 continued descending along the final approach course. from NTSB: "PROBABLE CAUSE: "The flight crew's decision to initiate and continue the approach into a cumulonimbus cloud which they observed to contain visible lightning; the lack of specific guidelines, procedures and training for avoiding and escaping from low-level windshear; and the lack of definitive, real-time windshear hazard information. This resulted in the aircraft's encounter at low altitude with a microburst-induced, severe windshear from a rapidly developing thunderstorm located on the final approach course." 3772018 marks half a century as a skydiver. Trained by the late Perry Stevens D-51 in 1968. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites georger 267 #29947 January 17, 2012 Please do post online anything you may have from experts that contradicts the National Weather Service's reports and forecasts. I have always wanted to meet an "expert", at least one who knew what he was talking about, and if I ever do meet one my life will be over. I will have seen all the sights and have nothing further to live for. . I posted the 500 millibar charts. 850 and 700 mb inferences can be made and it is my belief Ckrets' 30 knots at 10,000ft came from just such an inference - which one person here already alluded to previously. Larry didnt make the calculation - he knows next to nothing about these matters - but he found something in the files which allowed him to make the statement ... somebody did the calcs back in 71-72, maybe somebody at NWA we all know ? But the calc came from someone. Larry had some foundation for his remark(s). Point is these 500mb charts have implications for potential ground speeds behind an occluded front, as I understand these matters. And yes the charts are the surface chart for the date at 7AM EST. Later ... But you need to come to grips with the ground and pilot reports being real - not imagined. Something explains them. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites skyjack71 0 #29948 January 18, 2012 Quote What happened to Sluggo? I like other have not heard from him. Has anyone check the OBITS? Sluggo was a heavy set man with multiple health problems, so maybe he is not with us anymore or maybe he just lost interest after all of these yrs. Sure wish he would POP in with a comment and let us know he is ALIVE and Well.Copyright 2006, 2007, 2008, 2009, 2010, 2011, 2012 2013, 2014, 2015 by Jo Weber Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites mrshutter45 21 #29949 January 18, 2012 Quote Quote What happened to Sluggo? I like other have not heard from him. Has anyone check the OBITS? Sluggo was a heavy set man with multiple health problems, so maybe he is not with us anymore or maybe he just lost interest after all of these yrs. Sure wish he would POP in with a comment and let us know he is ALIVE and Well. what is Sluggo's real name?"It is surprising how aggressive people get, once they latch onto their suspect and say, 'Hey, he's our guy.' No matter what you tell them, they refuse to believe you" Agent Carr FBI Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites skyjack71 0 #29950 January 18, 2012 Georger stated: Quote No reply possible - Illiterate. Processing malfunction. Blevins Relates: Illiterate? Surely you jest. I edit books in my spare time, you know. Have been for years, with many successful clients. I lost count how many after twenty or so. That puts me a bit beyond the category of 'illiterate', thank you. Don't make me point you to the web page again...Illiterate, indeed. This is getting absolutely hilariously ridiculous! Belvins, Georger was nipping at your heels and got exactly the reaction we have all come to expect. You bowed up your back like a CAT and hisssed. Like a CAT you continuely stalk your prey which is nothing more than a ball of twine. The ball of twine has a name "Blast". The real prey is a mouse. No one will get this but me - and that is OK!Copyright 2006, 2007, 2008, 2009, 2010, 2011, 2012 2013, 2014, 2015 by Jo Weber Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites Prev 1193 1194 1195 1196 1197 1198 1199 1200 1201 1202 1203 Next Page 1198 of 2610 Join the conversation You can post now and register later. If you have an account, sign in now to post with your account. Note: Your post will require moderator approval before it will be visible. Reply to this topic... × Pasted as rich text. Paste as plain text instead Only 75 emoji are allowed. × Your link has been automatically embedded. Display as a link instead × Your previous content has been restored. Clear editor × You cannot paste images directly. Upload or insert images from URL. Insert image from URL × Desktop Tablet Phone Submit Reply 52 52 Go To Topic Listing
georger 267 #29939 January 17, 2012 QuoteThose maps are from the day BEFORE the hijacking. How about the ones from the day OF the hijacking? Twenty-four hours is a LONG time for Washington weather. Haven't you heard that old saying about the Evergreen State? Quote'Don't like the weather in Washington? Just wait around a few minutes. It'll change...' Look at the "maps" and read their dates - idiot. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
matthewcline 0 #29940 January 17, 2012 QuoteQuoteI want to hear, Read, your recollections. I would like to read the whole story from start to finish, with out tangents, just a factual time line. Matt Sorry Matt. You are not qualified. Can't trust you with liable information. I'm sure you understand. You need credentials, like an authorization from Bill Rataczak for me to release the documents. I understand he has said no comment. BS, I did not ask for that, I asked for your MEMORY of the events. Other wise it is just LSD induced lies. You now what LSD is, right? MattAn Instructors first concern is student safety. So, start being safe, first!!! Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
georger 267 #29941 January 17, 2012 QuoteQuoteHey Bruce! Interview Rataczack about the weather during the trip. Blevins & Porteous forgot to. Quote Bill ain't returning my phone calls or emails, and hasn't for a year or so. As for the weather, we spoke about it briefly during our one phone conversation. I had asked Bill if the pressure bump could have been caused by stormy weather and wiind pushing the stairs back up towards the fuselage. As I recall, he discounted that notion, but did acknowledge that the weather that night was a little "bumpy," or words to that effect. I find it curious that the weather so hard to pin down. On one hand we have the relative calm of the meterological reports and on the other Bohan, Meyer, Dona Elliott and others discussing seemingly near-gale-force blasts. Could this be a sign of highly localized, brief storm activity - a micro burst or something akin? Simply put, yes. On the backside of a rather fast moving occluded front that had formed earlier in the week, began moving across Washington-Oregon on Tuesday out of the Pacific, moved across Washington-Oregon the day of the 24th and slowed over Idaho, then spread out and began to weaken on Thursday .. I think there were residual cells still lingering as far west and in the vicinity of V23 in Washington, on the 24th and sporadic turbulence associated with some of those cells, with the merging of large warm and cold air masses on the backside of that occluded front. This could account for the various localised reports of quick-passing turulence and squals in certain areas along with more stable conditions noted further west and south, behind the occluded front already passed. That is as much as Im willing to risk saying here. I already know I will be attacked with this much! In the end one must account for all of the data which includes local personal reports of the day. These local reports from a variety of areas made throughout the day of Nov 24 1971 are credible. Here are a few maps. Have at it. Another clue mentioned before, but ignored, are the wind shifts registered at Portland itself, the day of the hijacking. See attached data from Weather Underground. From midnight of the 23rd until noon on the 24th there was a very regular oscillation of wind direction between South - SSW - and SSE. That all changed abruptly about noon. The wind suddenly began a steady shift toward the east until by 7:00pm the wind was virtually coming from the east. The trend line between noon and 7:00 is very clear. Then almost as abruptly , sometime after 7:00 pm, perhaps between 7:00 and 8:00pm, the wind changes again trending back toward the south. To some extent this data contradicts the data previously presented by Ckret and others, as I understand it, especially as regards a stable unchanging scenario for winds in and around the potential bailout time in the vicinity of Portland. The evidence of wind shift is right there in the Portland data others have presented but claimed a stable unchanging scenario. The trend lines and the fact of oscillation changing to a dramatic shift in the trend line and direction between 7:00 and 8:00pm is very clear, as represented in the Portland data. You cannot ignore the wind change data if Cooper bailed anywhere near Portland during the period of a wind shift... This sets the stage for further 'considerations' - based in hard documented evidence to be presented later. Have a nice day! Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites Robert99 60 #29942 January 17, 2012 QuoteQuoteQuoteHey Bruce! Interview Rataczack about the weather during the trip. Blevins & Porteous forgot to. Quote Bill ain't returning my phone calls or emails, and hasn't for a year or so. As for the weather, we spoke about it briefly during our one phone conversation. I had asked Bill if the pressure bump could have been caused by stormy weather and wiind pushing the stairs back up towards the fuselage. As I recall, he discounted that notion, but did acknowledge that the weather that night was a little "bumpy," or words to that effect. I find it curious that the weather so hard to pin down. On one hand we have the relative calm of the meterological reports and on the other Bohan, Meyer, Dona Elliott and others discussing seemingly near-gale-force blasts. Could this be a sign of highly localized, brief storm activity - a micro burst or something akin? Simply put, yes. On the backside of a rather fast moving occluded front that had formed earlier in the week, began moving across Washington-Oregon on Tuesday out of the Pacific, moved across Washington-Oregon the day of the 24th and slowed over Idaho, then spread out and began to weaken on Thursday .. I think there were residual cells still lingering as far west and in the vicinity of V23 in Washington, on the 24th and sporadic turbulence associated with some of those cells, with the merging of large warm and cold air masses on the backside of that occluded front. This could account for the various localised reports of quick-passing turulence and squals in certain areas along with more stable conditions noted further west and south, behind the occluded front already passed. That is as much as Im willing to risk saying here. I already know I will be attacked with this much! In the end one must account for all of the data which includes local personal reports of the day. These local reports from a variety of areas made throughout the day of Nov 24 1971 are credible. Here are a few maps. Have at it. Another clue mentioned before, but ignored, are the wind shifts registered at Portland itself, the day of the hijacking. See attached data from Weather Underground. From midnight of the 23rd until noon on the 24th there was a very regular oscillation of wind direction between South - SSW - and SSE. That all changed abruptly about noon. The wind suddenly began a steady shift toward the east until by 7:00pm the wind was virtually coming from the east. The trend line between noon and 7:00 is very clear. Then almost as abruptly , sometime after 7:00 pm, perhaps between 7:00 and 8:00pm, the wind changes again trending back toward the south. To some extent this data contradicts the data previously presented by Ckret and others, as I understand it. The trend lines and the fact of oscillation changing to a dramatic shift in the trend line and direction between 7:00 and 8:00pm is very clear, as represented in the Portland data. You cannot ignore the wind change data if Cooper bailed anywhere near Portland during the period of a wind shift... Georger, First let me thank you for putting those hourly sequence reports and winds aloft on the thread a few days ago. And contrary to your statement, those are the first such documents that I have seen from you. Also, keep in mind that some detailed analyses of those documents are going to show up on this thread. Now to your specific comments on the wind direction on November 24, 1971. You should also take a look at the wind speed for that same time period. From 4 to 7 PM, the ground wind speed at Portland was 4 MPH or less while the wind direction is given as generally from the southeast. By about 8:30 PM, the surface wind had picked up to about 8 MPH and generally from the south. For all practical purposes, the Portland surface wind could be described as "light and variable" for the period from 4 to 8:30 PM (by which time the airliner was south of Portland). Captain Bohan's famous 30 knot cross wind is nowhere to be seen. The maps that you sent earlier today are for the surface, correct? Take a look at the wind directions on those maps. Do they support your statements? From a fast look at all the weather information you have sent in the last few days, I see nothing in the information that is not consistent within itself. On the subject of "micro-bursts", they are associated with convective weather phenomena such as thunderstorms. There is not going to be a micro-burst on a cold winter night in Portland when the air mass is essentially stable and convection non-existent. Please do post online anything you may have from experts that contradicts the National Weather Service's reports and forecasts. I have always wanted to meet an "expert", at least one who knew what he was talking about, and if I ever do meet one my life will be over. I will have seen all the sights and have nothing further to live for. For one and all, I suggest that you visit the FAA Publications page on the Internet and check out the publication "Aviation Weather AC 00-6A", which may be available for a free download. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites mrshutter45 21 #29943 January 17, 2012 A microburst is a downward thrust of air that is a threat to aircraft at low levels, the danger is at take off and landings with surrounding storms. (see photo) They are now associated with Hurricanes after showing signs of microburst's durring Hurricane Wilma."It is surprising how aggressive people get, once they latch onto their suspect and say, 'Hey, he's our guy.' No matter what you tell them, they refuse to believe you" Agent Carr FBI Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites Robert99 60 #29944 January 17, 2012 QuoteA microburst is a downward thrust of air that is a threat to aircraft at low levels, the danger is at take off and landings with surrounding storms. (see photo) They are now associated with Hurricanes after showing signs of microburst's durring Hurricane Wilma. Tornados are also associated with some conditions related to hurricanes. Tornados and severe thunderstorms seem to have some type of structure that, at times, produces the micro-burst which heads for the ground. When it hits the ground at high velocity the winds radiate in a 360 degree fashion. You have probably seen pictures of micro-bursts that hit in wooded areas with the result that trees are downed and all pointed away from the point where the wind hit the ground. A number of airliner accidents have been caused by micro-bursts including a well documented one immediately adjacent to the New Orleans airport a number of years ago as the airliner took off. Another well known accident happened at the DFW airport a number of years ago during landing when a L-1011 was litterly scoured out of the sky short of the runway. This accident was definitely weather related but I don't specifically remember if it was a micro-burst (if it wasn't, it was something similiar to one). Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites mrshutter45 21 #29945 January 17, 2012 QuoteQuoteA microburst is a downward thrust of air that is a threat to aircraft at low levels, the danger is at take off and landings with surrounding storms. (see photo) They are now associated with Hurricanes after showing signs of microburst's durring Hurricane Wilma. Tornados are also associated with some conditions related to hurricanes. Tornados and severe thunderstorms seem to have some type of structure that, at times, produces the micro-burst which heads for the ground. When it hits the ground at high velocity the winds radiate in a 360 degree fashion. You have probably seen pictures of micro-bursts that hit in wooded areas with the result that trees are downed and all pointed away from the point where the wind hit the ground. A number of airliner accidents have been caused by micro-bursts including a well documented one immediately adjacent to the New Orleans airport a number of years ago as the airliner took off. Another well known accident happened at the DFW airport a number of years ago during landing when a L-1011 was litterly scoured out of the sky short of the runway. This accident was definitely weather related but I don't specifically remember if it was a micro-burst (if it wasn't, it was something similiar to one). yes but during Wilma signs of microburst's were everywhere, since that storm alot of minds have been changed from (mini Tornadoes) to a microburst causing the damage. I have been in many Hurricanes and during Wilma there was alot of damage due to them, I took a picture of a house that had extensive damage to the back and sides of the house, and no other damage like this on the surrounding homes, the picture does not show very much detail but the bolts that secure the Hurricane shutters where pushed in a downward position like I have never seen before! these bolts were rated at 150 mph (3 second gust)at pressures I'm not sure of at the moment but the wind ripped the shutter right off the house! and the front yard and surrounding area had little damage, the shutters were secure on the front of the house and the back and side were missing along with the fence in the backyard to the ceiling fan on the porch was destroyed."It is surprising how aggressive people get, once they latch onto their suspect and say, 'Hey, he's our guy.' No matter what you tell them, they refuse to believe you" Agent Carr FBI Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites 377 22 #29946 January 17, 2012 QuoteQuoteA microburst is a downward thrust of air that is a threat to aircraft at low levels, the danger is at take off and landings with surrounding storms. (see photo) They are now associated with Hurricanes after showing signs of microburst's durring Hurricane Wilma. Tornados are also associated with some conditions related to hurricanes. Tornados and severe thunderstorms seem to have some type of structure that, at times, produces the micro-burst which heads for the ground. When it hits the ground at high velocity the winds radiate in a 360 degree fashion. You have probably seen pictures of micro-bursts that hit in wooded areas with the result that trees are downed and all pointed away from the point where the wind hit the ground. A number of airliner accidents have been caused by micro-bursts including a well documented one immediately adjacent to the New Orleans airport a number of years ago as the airliner took off. Another well known accident happened at the DFW airport a number of years ago during landing when a L-1011 was litterly scoured out of the sky short of the runway. This accident was definitely weather related but I don't specifically remember if it was a micro-burst (if it wasn't, it was something similiar to one). The L1011 that crashed at DFW in 1985 encountered microburst induced wind shear. The NTSB criticized the crew's decision to continue an approach into a cumulonimbus cloud with visible lightning. From NTSB CVR analysis: At 18:04:18, the first officer said, "Lightning coming out of that one." The captain asked, "What?" and the first officer repeated "Lightning coming out of that one." The captain asked, and at 18:04:23, the first officer replied, "Right ahead of us." Flight 191 continued descending along the final approach course. from NTSB: "PROBABLE CAUSE: "The flight crew's decision to initiate and continue the approach into a cumulonimbus cloud which they observed to contain visible lightning; the lack of specific guidelines, procedures and training for avoiding and escaping from low-level windshear; and the lack of definitive, real-time windshear hazard information. This resulted in the aircraft's encounter at low altitude with a microburst-induced, severe windshear from a rapidly developing thunderstorm located on the final approach course." 3772018 marks half a century as a skydiver. Trained by the late Perry Stevens D-51 in 1968. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites georger 267 #29947 January 17, 2012 Please do post online anything you may have from experts that contradicts the National Weather Service's reports and forecasts. I have always wanted to meet an "expert", at least one who knew what he was talking about, and if I ever do meet one my life will be over. I will have seen all the sights and have nothing further to live for. . I posted the 500 millibar charts. 850 and 700 mb inferences can be made and it is my belief Ckrets' 30 knots at 10,000ft came from just such an inference - which one person here already alluded to previously. Larry didnt make the calculation - he knows next to nothing about these matters - but he found something in the files which allowed him to make the statement ... somebody did the calcs back in 71-72, maybe somebody at NWA we all know ? But the calc came from someone. Larry had some foundation for his remark(s). Point is these 500mb charts have implications for potential ground speeds behind an occluded front, as I understand these matters. And yes the charts are the surface chart for the date at 7AM EST. Later ... But you need to come to grips with the ground and pilot reports being real - not imagined. Something explains them. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites skyjack71 0 #29948 January 18, 2012 Quote What happened to Sluggo? I like other have not heard from him. Has anyone check the OBITS? Sluggo was a heavy set man with multiple health problems, so maybe he is not with us anymore or maybe he just lost interest after all of these yrs. Sure wish he would POP in with a comment and let us know he is ALIVE and Well.Copyright 2006, 2007, 2008, 2009, 2010, 2011, 2012 2013, 2014, 2015 by Jo Weber Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites mrshutter45 21 #29949 January 18, 2012 Quote Quote What happened to Sluggo? I like other have not heard from him. Has anyone check the OBITS? Sluggo was a heavy set man with multiple health problems, so maybe he is not with us anymore or maybe he just lost interest after all of these yrs. Sure wish he would POP in with a comment and let us know he is ALIVE and Well. what is Sluggo's real name?"It is surprising how aggressive people get, once they latch onto their suspect and say, 'Hey, he's our guy.' No matter what you tell them, they refuse to believe you" Agent Carr FBI Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites skyjack71 0 #29950 January 18, 2012 Georger stated: Quote No reply possible - Illiterate. Processing malfunction. Blevins Relates: Illiterate? Surely you jest. I edit books in my spare time, you know. Have been for years, with many successful clients. I lost count how many after twenty or so. That puts me a bit beyond the category of 'illiterate', thank you. Don't make me point you to the web page again...Illiterate, indeed. This is getting absolutely hilariously ridiculous! Belvins, Georger was nipping at your heels and got exactly the reaction we have all come to expect. You bowed up your back like a CAT and hisssed. Like a CAT you continuely stalk your prey which is nothing more than a ball of twine. The ball of twine has a name "Blast". The real prey is a mouse. No one will get this but me - and that is OK!Copyright 2006, 2007, 2008, 2009, 2010, 2011, 2012 2013, 2014, 2015 by Jo Weber Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites Prev 1193 1194 1195 1196 1197 1198 1199 1200 1201 1202 1203 Next Page 1198 of 2610 Join the conversation You can post now and register later. If you have an account, sign in now to post with your account. Note: Your post will require moderator approval before it will be visible. Reply to this topic... × Pasted as rich text. Paste as plain text instead Only 75 emoji are allowed. × Your link has been automatically embedded. Display as a link instead × Your previous content has been restored. Clear editor × You cannot paste images directly. Upload or insert images from URL. Insert image from URL × Desktop Tablet Phone Submit Reply 52 52
Robert99 60 #29942 January 17, 2012 QuoteQuoteQuoteHey Bruce! Interview Rataczack about the weather during the trip. Blevins & Porteous forgot to. Quote Bill ain't returning my phone calls or emails, and hasn't for a year or so. As for the weather, we spoke about it briefly during our one phone conversation. I had asked Bill if the pressure bump could have been caused by stormy weather and wiind pushing the stairs back up towards the fuselage. As I recall, he discounted that notion, but did acknowledge that the weather that night was a little "bumpy," or words to that effect. I find it curious that the weather so hard to pin down. On one hand we have the relative calm of the meterological reports and on the other Bohan, Meyer, Dona Elliott and others discussing seemingly near-gale-force blasts. Could this be a sign of highly localized, brief storm activity - a micro burst or something akin? Simply put, yes. On the backside of a rather fast moving occluded front that had formed earlier in the week, began moving across Washington-Oregon on Tuesday out of the Pacific, moved across Washington-Oregon the day of the 24th and slowed over Idaho, then spread out and began to weaken on Thursday .. I think there were residual cells still lingering as far west and in the vicinity of V23 in Washington, on the 24th and sporadic turbulence associated with some of those cells, with the merging of large warm and cold air masses on the backside of that occluded front. This could account for the various localised reports of quick-passing turulence and squals in certain areas along with more stable conditions noted further west and south, behind the occluded front already passed. That is as much as Im willing to risk saying here. I already know I will be attacked with this much! In the end one must account for all of the data which includes local personal reports of the day. These local reports from a variety of areas made throughout the day of Nov 24 1971 are credible. Here are a few maps. Have at it. Another clue mentioned before, but ignored, are the wind shifts registered at Portland itself, the day of the hijacking. See attached data from Weather Underground. From midnight of the 23rd until noon on the 24th there was a very regular oscillation of wind direction between South - SSW - and SSE. That all changed abruptly about noon. The wind suddenly began a steady shift toward the east until by 7:00pm the wind was virtually coming from the east. The trend line between noon and 7:00 is very clear. Then almost as abruptly , sometime after 7:00 pm, perhaps between 7:00 and 8:00pm, the wind changes again trending back toward the south. To some extent this data contradicts the data previously presented by Ckret and others, as I understand it. The trend lines and the fact of oscillation changing to a dramatic shift in the trend line and direction between 7:00 and 8:00pm is very clear, as represented in the Portland data. You cannot ignore the wind change data if Cooper bailed anywhere near Portland during the period of a wind shift... Georger, First let me thank you for putting those hourly sequence reports and winds aloft on the thread a few days ago. And contrary to your statement, those are the first such documents that I have seen from you. Also, keep in mind that some detailed analyses of those documents are going to show up on this thread. Now to your specific comments on the wind direction on November 24, 1971. You should also take a look at the wind speed for that same time period. From 4 to 7 PM, the ground wind speed at Portland was 4 MPH or less while the wind direction is given as generally from the southeast. By about 8:30 PM, the surface wind had picked up to about 8 MPH and generally from the south. For all practical purposes, the Portland surface wind could be described as "light and variable" for the period from 4 to 8:30 PM (by which time the airliner was south of Portland). Captain Bohan's famous 30 knot cross wind is nowhere to be seen. The maps that you sent earlier today are for the surface, correct? Take a look at the wind directions on those maps. Do they support your statements? From a fast look at all the weather information you have sent in the last few days, I see nothing in the information that is not consistent within itself. On the subject of "micro-bursts", they are associated with convective weather phenomena such as thunderstorms. There is not going to be a micro-burst on a cold winter night in Portland when the air mass is essentially stable and convection non-existent. Please do post online anything you may have from experts that contradicts the National Weather Service's reports and forecasts. I have always wanted to meet an "expert", at least one who knew what he was talking about, and if I ever do meet one my life will be over. I will have seen all the sights and have nothing further to live for. For one and all, I suggest that you visit the FAA Publications page on the Internet and check out the publication "Aviation Weather AC 00-6A", which may be available for a free download. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites mrshutter45 21 #29943 January 17, 2012 A microburst is a downward thrust of air that is a threat to aircraft at low levels, the danger is at take off and landings with surrounding storms. (see photo) They are now associated with Hurricanes after showing signs of microburst's durring Hurricane Wilma."It is surprising how aggressive people get, once they latch onto their suspect and say, 'Hey, he's our guy.' No matter what you tell them, they refuse to believe you" Agent Carr FBI Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites Robert99 60 #29944 January 17, 2012 QuoteA microburst is a downward thrust of air that is a threat to aircraft at low levels, the danger is at take off and landings with surrounding storms. (see photo) They are now associated with Hurricanes after showing signs of microburst's durring Hurricane Wilma. Tornados are also associated with some conditions related to hurricanes. Tornados and severe thunderstorms seem to have some type of structure that, at times, produces the micro-burst which heads for the ground. When it hits the ground at high velocity the winds radiate in a 360 degree fashion. You have probably seen pictures of micro-bursts that hit in wooded areas with the result that trees are downed and all pointed away from the point where the wind hit the ground. A number of airliner accidents have been caused by micro-bursts including a well documented one immediately adjacent to the New Orleans airport a number of years ago as the airliner took off. Another well known accident happened at the DFW airport a number of years ago during landing when a L-1011 was litterly scoured out of the sky short of the runway. This accident was definitely weather related but I don't specifically remember if it was a micro-burst (if it wasn't, it was something similiar to one). Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites mrshutter45 21 #29945 January 17, 2012 QuoteQuoteA microburst is a downward thrust of air that is a threat to aircraft at low levels, the danger is at take off and landings with surrounding storms. (see photo) They are now associated with Hurricanes after showing signs of microburst's durring Hurricane Wilma. Tornados are also associated with some conditions related to hurricanes. Tornados and severe thunderstorms seem to have some type of structure that, at times, produces the micro-burst which heads for the ground. When it hits the ground at high velocity the winds radiate in a 360 degree fashion. You have probably seen pictures of micro-bursts that hit in wooded areas with the result that trees are downed and all pointed away from the point where the wind hit the ground. A number of airliner accidents have been caused by micro-bursts including a well documented one immediately adjacent to the New Orleans airport a number of years ago as the airliner took off. Another well known accident happened at the DFW airport a number of years ago during landing when a L-1011 was litterly scoured out of the sky short of the runway. This accident was definitely weather related but I don't specifically remember if it was a micro-burst (if it wasn't, it was something similiar to one). yes but during Wilma signs of microburst's were everywhere, since that storm alot of minds have been changed from (mini Tornadoes) to a microburst causing the damage. I have been in many Hurricanes and during Wilma there was alot of damage due to them, I took a picture of a house that had extensive damage to the back and sides of the house, and no other damage like this on the surrounding homes, the picture does not show very much detail but the bolts that secure the Hurricane shutters where pushed in a downward position like I have never seen before! these bolts were rated at 150 mph (3 second gust)at pressures I'm not sure of at the moment but the wind ripped the shutter right off the house! and the front yard and surrounding area had little damage, the shutters were secure on the front of the house and the back and side were missing along with the fence in the backyard to the ceiling fan on the porch was destroyed."It is surprising how aggressive people get, once they latch onto their suspect and say, 'Hey, he's our guy.' No matter what you tell them, they refuse to believe you" Agent Carr FBI Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites 377 22 #29946 January 17, 2012 QuoteQuoteA microburst is a downward thrust of air that is a threat to aircraft at low levels, the danger is at take off and landings with surrounding storms. (see photo) They are now associated with Hurricanes after showing signs of microburst's durring Hurricane Wilma. Tornados are also associated with some conditions related to hurricanes. Tornados and severe thunderstorms seem to have some type of structure that, at times, produces the micro-burst which heads for the ground. When it hits the ground at high velocity the winds radiate in a 360 degree fashion. You have probably seen pictures of micro-bursts that hit in wooded areas with the result that trees are downed and all pointed away from the point where the wind hit the ground. A number of airliner accidents have been caused by micro-bursts including a well documented one immediately adjacent to the New Orleans airport a number of years ago as the airliner took off. Another well known accident happened at the DFW airport a number of years ago during landing when a L-1011 was litterly scoured out of the sky short of the runway. This accident was definitely weather related but I don't specifically remember if it was a micro-burst (if it wasn't, it was something similiar to one). The L1011 that crashed at DFW in 1985 encountered microburst induced wind shear. The NTSB criticized the crew's decision to continue an approach into a cumulonimbus cloud with visible lightning. From NTSB CVR analysis: At 18:04:18, the first officer said, "Lightning coming out of that one." The captain asked, "What?" and the first officer repeated "Lightning coming out of that one." The captain asked, and at 18:04:23, the first officer replied, "Right ahead of us." Flight 191 continued descending along the final approach course. from NTSB: "PROBABLE CAUSE: "The flight crew's decision to initiate and continue the approach into a cumulonimbus cloud which they observed to contain visible lightning; the lack of specific guidelines, procedures and training for avoiding and escaping from low-level windshear; and the lack of definitive, real-time windshear hazard information. This resulted in the aircraft's encounter at low altitude with a microburst-induced, severe windshear from a rapidly developing thunderstorm located on the final approach course." 3772018 marks half a century as a skydiver. Trained by the late Perry Stevens D-51 in 1968. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites georger 267 #29947 January 17, 2012 Please do post online anything you may have from experts that contradicts the National Weather Service's reports and forecasts. I have always wanted to meet an "expert", at least one who knew what he was talking about, and if I ever do meet one my life will be over. I will have seen all the sights and have nothing further to live for. . I posted the 500 millibar charts. 850 and 700 mb inferences can be made and it is my belief Ckrets' 30 knots at 10,000ft came from just such an inference - which one person here already alluded to previously. Larry didnt make the calculation - he knows next to nothing about these matters - but he found something in the files which allowed him to make the statement ... somebody did the calcs back in 71-72, maybe somebody at NWA we all know ? But the calc came from someone. Larry had some foundation for his remark(s). Point is these 500mb charts have implications for potential ground speeds behind an occluded front, as I understand these matters. And yes the charts are the surface chart for the date at 7AM EST. Later ... But you need to come to grips with the ground and pilot reports being real - not imagined. Something explains them. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
mrshutter45 21 #29943 January 17, 2012 A microburst is a downward thrust of air that is a threat to aircraft at low levels, the danger is at take off and landings with surrounding storms. (see photo) They are now associated with Hurricanes after showing signs of microburst's durring Hurricane Wilma."It is surprising how aggressive people get, once they latch onto their suspect and say, 'Hey, he's our guy.' No matter what you tell them, they refuse to believe you" Agent Carr FBI Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Robert99 60 #29944 January 17, 2012 QuoteA microburst is a downward thrust of air that is a threat to aircraft at low levels, the danger is at take off and landings with surrounding storms. (see photo) They are now associated with Hurricanes after showing signs of microburst's durring Hurricane Wilma. Tornados are also associated with some conditions related to hurricanes. Tornados and severe thunderstorms seem to have some type of structure that, at times, produces the micro-burst which heads for the ground. When it hits the ground at high velocity the winds radiate in a 360 degree fashion. You have probably seen pictures of micro-bursts that hit in wooded areas with the result that trees are downed and all pointed away from the point where the wind hit the ground. A number of airliner accidents have been caused by micro-bursts including a well documented one immediately adjacent to the New Orleans airport a number of years ago as the airliner took off. Another well known accident happened at the DFW airport a number of years ago during landing when a L-1011 was litterly scoured out of the sky short of the runway. This accident was definitely weather related but I don't specifically remember if it was a micro-burst (if it wasn't, it was something similiar to one). Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
mrshutter45 21 #29945 January 17, 2012 QuoteQuoteA microburst is a downward thrust of air that is a threat to aircraft at low levels, the danger is at take off and landings with surrounding storms. (see photo) They are now associated with Hurricanes after showing signs of microburst's durring Hurricane Wilma. Tornados are also associated with some conditions related to hurricanes. Tornados and severe thunderstorms seem to have some type of structure that, at times, produces the micro-burst which heads for the ground. When it hits the ground at high velocity the winds radiate in a 360 degree fashion. You have probably seen pictures of micro-bursts that hit in wooded areas with the result that trees are downed and all pointed away from the point where the wind hit the ground. A number of airliner accidents have been caused by micro-bursts including a well documented one immediately adjacent to the New Orleans airport a number of years ago as the airliner took off. Another well known accident happened at the DFW airport a number of years ago during landing when a L-1011 was litterly scoured out of the sky short of the runway. This accident was definitely weather related but I don't specifically remember if it was a micro-burst (if it wasn't, it was something similiar to one). yes but during Wilma signs of microburst's were everywhere, since that storm alot of minds have been changed from (mini Tornadoes) to a microburst causing the damage. I have been in many Hurricanes and during Wilma there was alot of damage due to them, I took a picture of a house that had extensive damage to the back and sides of the house, and no other damage like this on the surrounding homes, the picture does not show very much detail but the bolts that secure the Hurricane shutters where pushed in a downward position like I have never seen before! these bolts were rated at 150 mph (3 second gust)at pressures I'm not sure of at the moment but the wind ripped the shutter right off the house! and the front yard and surrounding area had little damage, the shutters were secure on the front of the house and the back and side were missing along with the fence in the backyard to the ceiling fan on the porch was destroyed."It is surprising how aggressive people get, once they latch onto their suspect and say, 'Hey, he's our guy.' No matter what you tell them, they refuse to believe you" Agent Carr FBI Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
377 22 #29946 January 17, 2012 QuoteQuoteA microburst is a downward thrust of air that is a threat to aircraft at low levels, the danger is at take off and landings with surrounding storms. (see photo) They are now associated with Hurricanes after showing signs of microburst's durring Hurricane Wilma. Tornados are also associated with some conditions related to hurricanes. Tornados and severe thunderstorms seem to have some type of structure that, at times, produces the micro-burst which heads for the ground. When it hits the ground at high velocity the winds radiate in a 360 degree fashion. You have probably seen pictures of micro-bursts that hit in wooded areas with the result that trees are downed and all pointed away from the point where the wind hit the ground. A number of airliner accidents have been caused by micro-bursts including a well documented one immediately adjacent to the New Orleans airport a number of years ago as the airliner took off. Another well known accident happened at the DFW airport a number of years ago during landing when a L-1011 was litterly scoured out of the sky short of the runway. This accident was definitely weather related but I don't specifically remember if it was a micro-burst (if it wasn't, it was something similiar to one). The L1011 that crashed at DFW in 1985 encountered microburst induced wind shear. The NTSB criticized the crew's decision to continue an approach into a cumulonimbus cloud with visible lightning. From NTSB CVR analysis: At 18:04:18, the first officer said, "Lightning coming out of that one." The captain asked, "What?" and the first officer repeated "Lightning coming out of that one." The captain asked, and at 18:04:23, the first officer replied, "Right ahead of us." Flight 191 continued descending along the final approach course. from NTSB: "PROBABLE CAUSE: "The flight crew's decision to initiate and continue the approach into a cumulonimbus cloud which they observed to contain visible lightning; the lack of specific guidelines, procedures and training for avoiding and escaping from low-level windshear; and the lack of definitive, real-time windshear hazard information. This resulted in the aircraft's encounter at low altitude with a microburst-induced, severe windshear from a rapidly developing thunderstorm located on the final approach course." 3772018 marks half a century as a skydiver. Trained by the late Perry Stevens D-51 in 1968. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
georger 267 #29947 January 17, 2012 Please do post online anything you may have from experts that contradicts the National Weather Service's reports and forecasts. I have always wanted to meet an "expert", at least one who knew what he was talking about, and if I ever do meet one my life will be over. I will have seen all the sights and have nothing further to live for. . I posted the 500 millibar charts. 850 and 700 mb inferences can be made and it is my belief Ckrets' 30 knots at 10,000ft came from just such an inference - which one person here already alluded to previously. Larry didnt make the calculation - he knows next to nothing about these matters - but he found something in the files which allowed him to make the statement ... somebody did the calcs back in 71-72, maybe somebody at NWA we all know ? But the calc came from someone. Larry had some foundation for his remark(s). Point is these 500mb charts have implications for potential ground speeds behind an occluded front, as I understand these matters. And yes the charts are the surface chart for the date at 7AM EST. Later ... But you need to come to grips with the ground and pilot reports being real - not imagined. Something explains them. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
skyjack71 0 #29948 January 18, 2012 Quote What happened to Sluggo? I like other have not heard from him. Has anyone check the OBITS? Sluggo was a heavy set man with multiple health problems, so maybe he is not with us anymore or maybe he just lost interest after all of these yrs. Sure wish he would POP in with a comment and let us know he is ALIVE and Well.Copyright 2006, 2007, 2008, 2009, 2010, 2011, 2012 2013, 2014, 2015 by Jo Weber Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
mrshutter45 21 #29949 January 18, 2012 Quote Quote What happened to Sluggo? I like other have not heard from him. Has anyone check the OBITS? Sluggo was a heavy set man with multiple health problems, so maybe he is not with us anymore or maybe he just lost interest after all of these yrs. Sure wish he would POP in with a comment and let us know he is ALIVE and Well. what is Sluggo's real name?"It is surprising how aggressive people get, once they latch onto their suspect and say, 'Hey, he's our guy.' No matter what you tell them, they refuse to believe you" Agent Carr FBI Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
skyjack71 0 #29950 January 18, 2012 Georger stated: Quote No reply possible - Illiterate. Processing malfunction. Blevins Relates: Illiterate? Surely you jest. I edit books in my spare time, you know. Have been for years, with many successful clients. I lost count how many after twenty or so. That puts me a bit beyond the category of 'illiterate', thank you. Don't make me point you to the web page again...Illiterate, indeed. This is getting absolutely hilariously ridiculous! Belvins, Georger was nipping at your heels and got exactly the reaction we have all come to expect. You bowed up your back like a CAT and hisssed. Like a CAT you continuely stalk your prey which is nothing more than a ball of twine. The ball of twine has a name "Blast". The real prey is a mouse. No one will get this but me - and that is OK!Copyright 2006, 2007, 2008, 2009, 2010, 2011, 2012 2013, 2014, 2015 by Jo Weber Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
