snowmman 3 #12601 August 24, 2009 some reviews. It's $85 Apparently 1st of a planned series? I found some more Hardy gathered on Braden. Will post. Apparently Willie McLeod, was 1-0 for RT Colorado in 1969, taking it from Mike O'Connor in April. A RT Colorado team patch is in the montage attached. "With 300+ pages and over 900 images, there has never been a SOG reconnaissance team reference as complete as this that details the teams Asp, Colorado, Hawaii, Idaho, Indigo, Montana, and Rattler." "SOG: Team History and Insignia of a Clandestine Army is an excellent reference book for anyone interested in SOG. The book is by Jason Hardy and Michael Tucker and is the first in what is supposed to be an 8-10 volume series on SOG teams and team insignia. The book is primarily a pictorial and consists of nearly 300 pages of captioned pictures, along with a few pages dedicated to the history of each team. One of the great things about the book is that I have seen only a tiny handful of the photos before--just a very, very few are in other SOG books, such as Plaster's pictorial and Greco's pictorial. The authors evidently went right to the source--SOG vets--and were able to obtain great photos of the teams and their insignia. The other cool thing is that a great many of the pics are full color and really give the book a dynamic look." Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Orange1 0 #12602 August 24, 2009 QuoteBruce reported "Other things happened there, but Kendall said that he can’t tell me everything because a lot of stuff is still classified. " It's funny that there are old guys who think that something that happened in Vietnam in '62-'71 still has some national security implications, such that it needs to be kept secret from the American public. Usually that just means stuff that would be perceived negatively nowadays. Nothing to do with national security. That's fine though. Can you imagine WWII or Korean War guys arguing that anything they know from back then is "classified". See Orange1? The US is a miltaristic society. There's no way to avoid saying that. We like our military stuff. Actually, I think it's kind of cool, honourable even, that someone, having served for their country, undertakes to keep something secret and does so until he's told it's OK not to. (Of course we know that many don't. )Skydiving: wasting fossil fuels just for fun. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
snowmman 3 #12603 August 24, 2009 From Hardy and Tucker "SOG: Team History and Insignia of a Clandestine Army" Note that the RT was Braden, Gary Shadduck and JD Bath. Theodore (Ted) Braden, Spike Team Colorado's first 1-0, starts his military career during World War II serving with the 101st Airborne division. As the Vietnam conflict begins. Braden enters the country in 1965 with Special Forces Project Delta. In June of 1966 Braden becomes the 1-0 of Spike Team Colorado, located at Kontum, Vietnam, and holds that position until the end of 1966. In an interview with JD Bath the 1-2 of ST Colorado. Bath states that Ted Braden. Gary Shadduck, and himself reported to SOG headquarters in Saigon for debriefing after a successful wire tapping mission in late 1966. After their separate interviews and debriefing, they meet at SOG's safe house in Saigon, House 10. There, Braden announces to the team that he has been ordered to go on R&R (Rest and Recreation) and no excuses would be accepted. This is the last time that Braden is seen in Vietnam. In October of 1967 an article appears in Ramparts magazine written by Ted Braden explaining that he had gone AWOL (Absent Without Leave) from Vietnam. Assuming the identity of Joseph Edward Horner, a member of SOG that was killed at Camp Long Thanh in 1965, Braden makes his way to Johannesburg, South Africa. Once there, he fights as a mercenary with the 5th Commando Unit until discovered by U.S. Federal Agents. Braden is extradited to the United States to face desertion charges of a court martial at the same time US Senate and Congressional hearings investigating SOG activities begins. Seeing that Braden is a potential embarrassment for the United States government a document is drawn up swearing him to not reveal anything he knows about SOG activities in exchange for a Honorable Discharge. After accepting these terms, Ted Braden is never heard from again. Also: ST Idaho is originally manned by 1st Group Snake Bite teams from Okinawa in 1965. The team runs operations from Kham Duc but moves to FOB#1 Phu Bai at the end of 1966. ST Idaho is one of the original five recon teams trained at Camp Long Thanh and transferred to Kham Duc. 1966 finds ST Idaho at Kham Duc with Ted Braden [Ed. Hardy misspelled Braden's name] the 1-0 and Jim Hetrick the 1-1 until June of that year. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
snowmman 3 #12604 August 24, 2009 Orange1 said "Actually, I think it's kind of cool, honourable even, that someone, having served for their country, undertakes to keep something secret and does so until he's told it's OK not to. (Of course we know that many don't. )" Bullshit. The only secrets kept after 40 years by guys at the bottom of the power ladder are ones that make people look bad. It's that simple. The guys in SOG were at the bottom. Operation MHCHAOS had people sign a similar secrecy agreement, swearing them to secrecy no matter what. MHCHAOS started, after the CIA went after Ramparts magazine, in 1967. The memo attached is from the CIA "family jewels" docs we've posted about. I believe DZ.com has "foreign connections" Hmm. Trivia: MHCHAOS may have been the first time the agency used an isolated computer system to keep track of all their reports and names. "In some respects Ober was a fugitive within his own agency, but the very illegality of MHCHAOS gave him power. Because he had been ordered to carry out an illegal mission, he had certain leverage over his bosses, as long as he kept his operation secret" http://books.google.com/books?id=67XBXqSP9KgC&pg=PA28&lpg=PA28#v=onepage&q=&f=false "At its finality, Operation CHAOS contained files on 7,200 Americans, and a computer index totaling 300,000 civilians and approximately 1,000 groups" http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Operation_CHAOS The agreement: "I understand that I am not to discuss with or disclose to any person any information designated MHCHAOS unless such a person is also currently authorized to have access to MHCHAOS information. I am aware that is my responsibility to ascertain that such authorization for another person is valid and current...I am further aware that if a change in status renders it no longer necessary for me to have access to MHCHAOS information, my name will be removed from the list of those so authorized. I also understand that removal of my name from the list will not relieve me of the responsibility of remaining silent about MHCHAOS information." "I hereby affirm my understanding that no change in my assignment or employment, including termination, will release me of my obligation as stated above." MHCHAOS was political, domestic espionage, carried out by the CIA, while they knew it was illegal. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
snowmman 3 #12605 August 24, 2009 in "Tales from the Teamhouse" http://books.google.com/books?id=_znbSq4mluUC&pg=PA210&lpg=PA210&dq=duncan+tales+from+the+teamhouse&source=bl&ots=jqfvHSPKWg&sig=7nqEpfoVAlctPFjHVl_fy-NUdjQ&hl=en&ei=-DOSSt2TNIKssgOgrqkM&sa=X&oi=book_result&ct=result&resnum=1#v=onepage&q=&f=false "As I recall, Duncan had been xxx's recon patrol leader. Duncan quit recon and Delta after his team blundered into a couple of unarmed villagers while on his last patrol. The team took them as prisoners because they were afraid they were either VC or would tell the VC about seeing them. Duncan reported it by radio. According to Duncan, Delta's Headquarters ordered him to kill the villagers and continue the mission, and he refused. Duncan wanted exfiltration along with the villagers... ... Duncan impressed me as being a very good soldier. He was a very young Master Sergeant. Duncan, like many others; he just did not have a stomach for that stupid war." (edit) Just noticed wikipedia has a good broader view of MACV-SOG activity, from more of a historical viewpoint than the anecdotal stuff. Includes some good details like numbers of people involved etc. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Military_Assistance_Command,_Vietnam_-_Studies_and_Observations_Group Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
snowmman 3 #12606 August 24, 2009 although there were leaks and some SOG testimony to congress about bombing Laos/Cambodia... wikipedia article says it wasn't until early 1990's that historians got a lot of data. The Pentagon Papers only disclosed some of the early days of the operations. "Historians interested in the unit's activities had to wait until the early 1990s, when MACSOG's Annexes to the annual MACV Command Histories and a Pentagon documentation study of the organization were declassified for the Senate Select Committee on POW/MIA Affairs' hearings on the Vietnam War POW/MIA issue." Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
BruceSmith 3 #12607 August 24, 2009 I have JD Bath's contact information and will talking with him tomorrow. Stay tuned. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
snowmman 3 #12608 August 24, 2009 QuoteI have JD Bath's contact information and will talking with him tomorrow. Stay tuned. you're good at keeping track of what are interesting questions, but the new name "Gary Shadduck"...you should ask Bath if he remembers Shadduck and if he has a contact. I've not seen Shadduck's name before. There is a misspelling of his name on the web here, but good info on Shadduck. Apparently he was a SEAL? "One of those was Gary Shaauck, who ran missions as the 1-2 on Recon Team RT-Colorado between Sept -Nov of 1966" He was one of only 6 US Navy Seals EVER to run cross border missions in the history of SOG. (according to the poster) (edit) Shadduck is mentioned in a bunch of SEAL books. see references here in "SEAL!: from Vietnam's PHOENIX program to Central America's drug wars" http://books.google.com/books?id=gMgxIvUz104C&pg=PA162&lpg=PA162&dq=%22Gary+Shadduck%22+seal&source=bl&ots=T1q2CTM-Sm&sig=dM2MlocaX941vYZa4KjNoEY7IRo&hl=en&ei=REOSSpyvMpDgtgOugP0K&sa=X&oi=book_result&ct=result&resnum=1#v=onepage&q=Shadduck&f=false Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
snowmman 3 #12609 August 24, 2009 from http://books.google.com/books?id=gMgxIvUz104C&pg=PA162&lpg=PA162&dq=%22Gary+Shadduck%22+seal&source=bl&ots=T1q2CTM-Sm&sig=dM2MlocaX941vYZa4KjNoEY7IRo&hl=en&ei=REOSSpyvMpDgtgOugP0K&sa=X&oi=book_result&ct=result&resnum=1#v=onepage&q=Shadduck&f=false "Gary Shadduck, whom I liked tremendously. He was an accomplished skydiver who loved free-fall parachuting with a passion. Shadduck was a PRU adviser with Phoenix in Vinh Long Province" (edit) Gary N. Shadduck received the Silver Star on Aug 25, 1969. US Navy, IV Corps Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
BruceSmith 3 #12610 August 24, 2009 Galen Cook emailed me today to confirm that he has sent a pix of Braden to Florence Schaffner, and also to say that she hasn't responded, which he thought was a little odd since she has been a quick responder to his inquiries in the past. He also indicated that he didn't want to rush or pressure her, and I agree. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
BruceSmith 3 #12611 August 24, 2009 QuoteQuoteI have JD Bath's contact information and will talking with him tomorrow. Stay tuned. you're good at keeping track of what are interesting questions, but the new name "Gary Shadduck"...you should ask Bath if he remembers Shadduck and if he has a contact. I've not seen Shadduck's name before. There is a misspelling of his name on the web here, but good info on Shadduck. Apparently he was a SEAL? "One of those was Gary Shaauck, who ran missions as the 1-2 on Recon Team RT-Colorado between Sept -Nov of 1966" He was one of only 6 US Navy Seals EVER to run cross border missions in the history of SOG. (according to the poster) (edit) Shadduck is mentioned in a bunch of SEAL books. see references here in "SEAL!: from Vietnam's PHOENIX program to Central America's drug wars" [Quote I wonder if Shadduck was the Seal that Hetrick talked about that ran with him and Braden and later turned out to be a spy for SOG HQ checking up on Braden. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites Orange1 0 #12612 August 24, 2009 Bruce, lots of interesting stuff... again, thanks!Skydiving: wasting fossil fuels just for fun. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites Sluggo_Monster 0 #12613 August 24, 2009 All, During my cross-country trip from New Mexico I had an incident that required a little oral surgery as soon as I arrived home. I am now fully recovered, off Disneyland pills, and feeling well. The last time I saw any posts was on 08/17. I just read the 118 posts covering the period since then and have a few (really, just a few) comments: snowmman: QuoteAlso McNally got $502,000 (why 502? who knows) Maybe?{Just a thought}: LANSA Flight 502 was a Lockheed L-188A Electra operated by Líneas Aéreas Nacionales Sociedad Anónima (LANSA) which crashed shortly after takeoff from Quispiquilla Airport near Cusco, Peru on August 9, 1970, after losing one of its engines. Over half of the passengers belonged to a single group, sponsored by the Buffalo, New York based International Fellowship student exchange program, consisting of 49 American high school exchange students, along with their teachers, family members, and guides, who were returning from a visit to nearby Machu Picchu to their host families in the Lima area. skyjack71: QuoteWOW! Had no idea that children were sent here alone in 1960's to shelter them from Cuba. Wonder what happened to all of the children? Wonder if any of them became Skydivers? So much I am learning in my old age - so many of us from the 60's just stumbled thru life in our sheltered worlds without a clue of what was really going on in Cuba and other places. We are close to the same age, my experience was VERY different, (probably due to my employment choices), I became aware of “that other government” in the late sixties and early seventies and made many choices based on that knowledge. georger: QuoteThe implication is, she might be sucked out? Was it a fear that she may be “sucked out” or “fall out?” I don’t recall a clear statement. Bruce (Cousin Bruce) is doing an excellent job. Keep it up, Bruce. I keep seeing references and statements to the effect of “The FBI now thinks…” or “The FBI has changed it’s mind…” [NOTE: I have (probably) made statements like this myself.] I am wondering who (exactly) speaks for the FBI in matters such as this. The Bureau has its Public Information Office, each office has its Public Information Officer (the Seattle Office’s is Roberta Burroughs), they have their web-site, and SA Carr is the Agent-In-Charge (of record) for NORJAK. But when making a statement like “The FBI now thinks…” who are we talking about. Or, maybe a better way of saying it is “Does the Bureau have an opinion about the current state of NORJAK (other than – it’s a cold case)? [This is obviously a rhetorical question… I don’t really expect answers.] Web Page Blog NORJAK Forum Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites Orange1 0 #12614 August 24, 2009 yes. welcome back, and hope the surgery was minor...Skydiving: wasting fossil fuels just for fun. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites BruceSmith 3 #12615 August 25, 2009 Greetings Y'all, I just had a wonderful one-hour-plus phone conversation with SOG trooper JD Bath, codenamed “Tub” back in the old days of running recon when he ran with Ted Braden. JD served two tours of duty in Vietnam: May ’66 to April ’67, and then April ‘71- April ‘72. JD served with Ted Braden on JD’s first tour in 1966, on RT Colorado. JD was the 1-2 – the radio guy. The Navy Seal, Gary Shadduck was the third team member at this time. Jim Hetrick would later join the team as 1-1 when Shadduck left to go back to Seal World at China Beach. JD discounted Hetrick's view that Shadduck was a spy for SOG HQ to ferret out info on Braden. JD viewed it as a routine assignment of a Navy Seal into SOG-Army duty. JD’s view of Ted Braden differs sharply from what Hetrick told me, and also corroborates some very important information from Bill Kendall Here’s what JD told me: “Ted could have done it – the Cooper thing. He was certainly capable of doing it. He knew how to carry a gun and how to use it….He planned things out, he was very thorough, and very calm. Ted Braden was a cool-headed team leader, and he had a flair for the unorthodox. He was not afraid to do things….He always knew what he was doing, and always got us out safely.” JD confirmed what Hetrick said about Ted’s solo trips to Saigon to debrief. However, JD said that was not uncommon as “somebody had to stay behind with the ’little people’ – a common SOG term for the Yards and South Vietnamese soldiers and support staff, and used by JD throughout our conversation. The tone of his voice was not racist, but more familiar-like, comparable to calling me a Yankee, or a New Yorker. Not fully-friendly and respectful, but certainly familiar and with tones of warmth. JD also confirms Ted’s strong involvement with the CIA. “Ted told us once, ‘If you see me in Saigon and I’m wearing civilian clothes and I’m with a bunch of guys who are also wearing civilian clothes – you don’t know me, and I don’t know you.’” Ted also received specialized equipment from the CIA, including a fancy camera that had infrared capabilities, and also voice-activate listening devices to place along the Ho Chi Minh Trail. JD paints a different picture of Ted’s personality than we’ve heard before. “I never saw him drunk. He never got wasted in camp. When things got slow and we were standing down, Ted was totally laid back. But when it was time to go to work, he was all business. Ted knew a lot of people down in Saigon, so maybe he drank there, but never back in camp at Kontum.” JD also said that Ted liked to smoke a pipe, and would just go off by himself, have a smoke, and read a book. “He was a loner. He would just go off by himself.” JD also described Ted as an educated man with “at least a year or two of college,” and said Ted was well-spoken and articulate. “He was a suave-y kind of guy.” JD was also very impressed at Ted’s ability and commitment to stay in shape, and mentioned the morning sit-ups that Hardy did. “Ted really stayed in shape to keep up with the younger men. Heck- he was in his late thirties.” JD added that in battle Ted knew what he was doing. “He never panicked or got wild-eyed. Ted was one of the best team leaders that I served with in Vietnam, and I learned a lot from Ted.” JD described Ted as sharp-eyed, perceptive, and able to keep his cool under pressure. Ted’s confidence, skill and calm demeanor was a profound asset to RT Colorado. “Ted was good for the team, especially with the Yards. We had a cohesive team.” JD said the Yards were good in the boonies, but they would run if they thought the team leader was getting twitchy, scared, or couldn’t think fast on his feet. JD also said that Jim Hetrick at first liked Ted, and learned a lot from him as well. However, over time, Hetrick and Braden had a falling-out that started over how Ted paid his “little people” on the team. JD said that Hetrick was more by the book, and Ted did things his own ways, including the heavy usage of brides and financial pay-offs to get things done. JD also gave a unique perspective on Ted Braden’s history, saying that Ted received his Lieutenant’s commission in the Korean War, but lost it and was mustered out of the Army after Ted physically beat up a sergeant “who was not moving the men forward.” JD said, “Ted was brought back in as an enlisted man for the Vietnam War, and worked his way up to E-7 by ‘66.” JD also said something similar to what Kendall said about Ted’s reported competitive skydiving for the Army in Germany in the early 1960s. “I never heard any of that,” JD announced. When I mentioned Golden Arrows to JD, it sounded like it was an unfamiliar term to him, as well. The Hue Incident JD had a lot to say about the incident at Hue where Ted flipped out and pointed a gun at JD and called him a coward. JD said that RT Colorado had been assigned to a special job out of Phu Bai. They left Kontum in time to have a little extra time in Phu Bai to see the sights in near-by Hue, and they headed up there by truck. On the highway, they were ambushed. The driver, an American, drove the truck into a ditch, and Braden, Shadduck and JD ran successfully behind a railroad embankment and tracks. Apparently there were some Vietnamese soldiers with them and the Americans got weapons from them. Braden had his pistol with him. Hearing the fire-fight, some “puff patrol” came up through a rice paddy. They were local police or militia, but Braden mistook them for VC and killed one. In the course of the fire-fight they moved into a nearby village. In one particular hooch an elderly Vietnamese woman was sitting “Buddha-style,” with her hands folded underneath a shawl. Ted ordered JD to kill her, and he refused. Ted ordered him again to kill her. JD put he muzzle of his gun to the woman’s head and she uncovered her hands from the shawl. She had “Buddha beads,” and not the grenade that Braden had feared. Then Braden ordered JD to move the woman to see if she was sitting over a trap door, hideaway. She moved, and it was just a dirt floor. Then a Marine company moved up and finished the fire-fight. At the end, the American truck driver wanted to return to Phu Bai, and JD and Shadduck concurred and sat on the tail gate of the truck, ready to go. Ted said he wanted them to join him and continue their trip to Hue, but they refused. Ted pointed his rifle at them and ordered them not to move. He called them yellow-bellied------etc. cowards, and told them he didn’t want them on his team; and ultimately declared they were off his team. Then, a Vietnamese city bus drove by and Ted commandeered it, putting his pistol to the driver’s head, and he drove off to Hue. Ted, apparently, came back latter that night to Phu Bai, because the next morning at breakfast he sat down calmly with JD and Shadduck and announced –“Well, do you guys have all your gear ready to go?” Shadduck and JD said, “No, we’re off the team,” and JD added that he wouldn’t ever go out on a recon with anyone who had ever called him a coward. “Who told you that?” replied Ted. JD said that Ted seemed to have zero remembrance of what he had said the day before. JD and Shadduck went on the recon several days later because the CO at Phu Bai said he really needed the intel that they were going after. JD also said that he had seen Braden “go schizophrenic” several times, and described several instances of Ted being off-base after curfew and once driving a truck through an ARVN check-point and another where American MPs brought him back to Kontum in handcuffs, and had a follow-up altercation with the Master Sergeant that ended with Ted threatening to kill the soldier. “But Ted didn’t really mean it” said JD. “He was just messing with his head.” JD described the sergeant as someone who had little respect from the SOG troopers and was pulling an ego trip by messing with Braden. “Ted suffered from combat fatigue, PTSD or whatever you want to call it” said JD. He was in combat too long.” JD has a lot of fondness for Ted. “Ted was one of the old hands, and you never heard any of the old hands talk down about Ted Braden. Most of them were in Korea, so they understood Ted. They’d tell me to tell Hetrick to tone it down about Ted.” Also: “Ted had a girl friend in Vietnam, in Na Trang,” said JD. “But the woman had a husband who was an ARVN soldier. Ted told us one night, ‘That guy’s getting to be a real pain in the ass. Why don’t you guys take him out?’ he said to me and Shadduck. We said we would, and asked him where the girl friend lived, and where the husband was, and all that, but we wouldn’t have done it. We were just talking big – trying to be big shots like Ted.” Braden’s Disappearance I asked JD what it was like when Ted disappeared. “Well, Ted had gone down to Saigon for a debriefing, just like usual. When you’d go down there, they would keep you for a few days, maybe four or five days. So when he wasn’t back for a while we didn’t think too much of it. But after seven days or so, people began asking, “Where’s Ted,’ and we didn’t know. “Eventually, we got another replacement, a Lt. George Sisler became our team leaders, and we just resumed our recons.” Is Ted Braden DB Cooper? I asked JD, knowing Braden as well as he did, why would Ted do the Cooper skyjacking? “Early retirement, I guess.” When I told JD about the Theodore Braden the DZ team had discovered in Pittsburgh and that neighbors had described him as a long-distance truck driver, JD was quite dismissive. “I can’t see Ted sitting behind a wheel, driving a truck for somebody, half out of his mind. Unless he had medical problems or other issues and it was the only thing he could do.” JD declared that Ted had too many skills not to be in demand as a mercenary or a covert operative. “Ted had a lot of contacts. He could be working for the mafia or somebody. There are lots of people Ted could be working for. A lot of guys went to work for those people.” I asked JD how tall Ted was. “He was about as tall as me, and I’m 5-8.” When I told JD about the reports of Cooper being six-foot, and having deep, dark, penetrating brown eyes, JD replied: Ted could’ve used contacts and elevated shoes. That’s the kind of thing Ted would do – he would anticipate things, figure things out, have a plan. He would have thought it all out.” ************************************ Welcome back, Sluggo. Glad you're around, again. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites snowmman 3 #12616 August 25, 2009 Remember when I said I cancelled my newspaper subscription and how newspaper guys don't work the contacts like they used to, to get all of the story. Well I take that back. Bruce is working the rolodex, running up the phone bill..I"m picturing a beatup keyboard, cigarette butts in the ashtray, a scotch, neat, sitting next to the monitor. A broken desklamp that won't stay pointing right, always needing adjustment.....And he gets us a story. Every day. We just need the cranky editor yelling at him "Bruce, give it up, there's nothing there...now get out to the Little League field and get the scores"...and Bruce shuffles off...but in the parking lot of the baseball field, he finds a mom, who knows someone at the VFW, who knows someone who was 1-2 on RT Iowa. And Bruce's eyes narrow a bit, and he whispers "You got a phone number for me?".... and she says "...oh, well you know I'm married"... "No, No, the 1-2! What's his number!" Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites snowmman 3 #12617 August 25, 2009 Bruce said "JD served two tours of duty in Vietnam: May ’66 to April ’67, and then April ‘71- April ‘72." That's weird. What did he do in between? Was he still military, just stateside? Or did he re-enlist? Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites snowmman 3 #12618 August 25, 2009 Bruce said "Ted also received specialized equipment from the CIA, including a fancy camera that had infrared capabilities, and also voice-activate listening devices to place along the Ho Chi Minh Trail." There was a whole program of planting sensors and recording their information, to track trucks etc. I haven't red of infrared, although I've seen some aerial recon photos from Greco's book, and the camera that was standard issue. I've posted before about how they started experimenting with nightvision stuff in Vietnam. 377 has posted on heli mounted stuff too. I'll get the picture of the standard camera. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites skyjack71 0 #12619 August 25, 2009 Need some help with something I have kept to myself because I do not know what it is related to. This may track back to my first husband as it does not appear to be Duane's handwriting. My daughter was going to run the names by her father, but she never did. So here goes: A yellowed piece of paper with 3 names on it: Huey Hunter US Army Joseph Cox US Army Larry McIver US Army I believe this is something that survived my first marriage, but I do NOT remember . It was in a pocket atlas with Compliments of Continental West on it. This seems to have been issued in Colorado, but no date. I do not know if this is where the piece of paper was originally. A page on this map is turned down - do not know which of these maps it is turned down for - Mexico, Maritime Provinces and Western Canada. The pocket Atlas was definitely Duane's but I think the note may have been placed there by me in the last 37 yrs. I divorced my first husband of 10 yrs in 1971. If it was me turning down a page it would mean Western Canada, but it could just be a general marking of this section.Copyright 2006, 2007, 2008, 2009, 2010, 2011, 2012 2013, 2014, 2015 by Jo Weber Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites snowmman 3 #12620 August 25, 2009 I talked about this book before, because it repeats some of the early detail about Braden arriving in Vietnam. But here are some photos from the book. On the camera shown (EES-2) (I was thinking of it on Bruce's mention of cameras) "The camera used in the field by the recon teams, at least in 1969-70 was an Olympus Pen EES-2 half-frame model. It was relatively easy to use, quiet, compact and usually loaded with a 36-exposure roll of Kodak black-and-white 400 ASA film. The half-frame feature provided up to 72 exposures on one roll of film. (Some thought that the S-2 designation, which in the military corresponds to company-level intelligence, meant that it was designed specifically for us. But that was just coincidence; the S-2 was just an improved model made by Olympus.) CISO's Ben Baker originally obtained the first model (a Pen EE) used earlier on cross-border missions." Some aerial photos, and a weekly report also attached from the book. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites snowmman 3 #12621 August 25, 2009 Bruce reports: "JD also gave a unique perspective on Ted Braden’s history, saying that Ted received his Lieutenant’s commission in the Korean War, but lost it and was mustered out of the Army after Ted physically beat up a sergeant “who was not moving the men forward.” " Yeah, everything I ever saw about Braden said Sergeant. Really surprising he was Lieutenant! I wonder if Bath can confirm that Braden enlisted during WWII, lying about his age... Hardy confirmed that (maybe from the Ramparts article)...he said 101st airborne? If so, then he must have left, and joined again later, if he only had 14 years in, in 1966-1967? Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites snowmman 3 #12622 August 25, 2009 Bruce said "JD also said something similar to what Kendall said about Ted’s reported competitive skydiving for the Army in Germany in the early 1960s. “I never heard any of that,” JD announced. " Send them the articles from '61 and '62 I posted, especially the one with all the photos of Ted demonstrating the skydiving positions. They'll get a kick out of those! A Ted they didn't know! Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites snowmman 3 #12623 August 25, 2009 Really good job getting this other version of Ted from JD, Bruce. Really nice putting some depth to a person that obviously had a lot going on. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites snowmman 3 #12624 August 25, 2009 We have the full social security number for the Ted B. Braden that died in PA. But I don't think there's anything we could do with it. Too bad we don't have FBI. They could probably get working records based on it? The PA Ted was the rightish age. I think it's the same Ted. Did Bath know where Braden was born? We have the birth state from the WWII enlistment, if that's the same Braden. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites skyjack71 0 #12625 August 25, 2009 A yellowed piece of paper with 3 names on it: Huey Hunter US Army Joseph Cox US Army Larry McIver US Army There are complete names with RA#, HqCo. # and one of them says Nev VLM Germany. I will make these available to someone who is able to do the search for me - but do NOT want to make them public if they have something to do with the father of my children - who did serve in Germany and was discharged around 1959 - I am thinking these names are in connectioned to him and NOT Duane. Not feeling very good so I am going to lie down - I may check the forum later. Thanks.Copyright 2006, 2007, 2008, 2009, 2010, 2011, 2012 2013, 2014, 2015 by Jo Weber Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites Prev 500 501 502 503 504 505 506 507 508 509 510 Next Page 505 of 2625 Join the conversation You can post now and register later. If you have an account, sign in now to post with your account. Note: Your post will require moderator approval before it will be visible. Reply to this topic... × Pasted as rich text. Paste as plain text instead Only 75 emoji are allowed. × Your link has been automatically embedded. Display as a link instead × Your previous content has been restored. Clear editor × You cannot paste images directly. Upload or insert images from URL. Insert image from URL × Desktop Tablet Phone Submit Reply 52 52 Go To Topic Listing
Orange1 0 #12612 August 24, 2009 Bruce, lots of interesting stuff... again, thanks!Skydiving: wasting fossil fuels just for fun. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Sluggo_Monster 0 #12613 August 24, 2009 All, During my cross-country trip from New Mexico I had an incident that required a little oral surgery as soon as I arrived home. I am now fully recovered, off Disneyland pills, and feeling well. The last time I saw any posts was on 08/17. I just read the 118 posts covering the period since then and have a few (really, just a few) comments: snowmman: QuoteAlso McNally got $502,000 (why 502? who knows) Maybe?{Just a thought}: LANSA Flight 502 was a Lockheed L-188A Electra operated by Líneas Aéreas Nacionales Sociedad Anónima (LANSA) which crashed shortly after takeoff from Quispiquilla Airport near Cusco, Peru on August 9, 1970, after losing one of its engines. Over half of the passengers belonged to a single group, sponsored by the Buffalo, New York based International Fellowship student exchange program, consisting of 49 American high school exchange students, along with their teachers, family members, and guides, who were returning from a visit to nearby Machu Picchu to their host families in the Lima area. skyjack71: QuoteWOW! Had no idea that children were sent here alone in 1960's to shelter them from Cuba. Wonder what happened to all of the children? Wonder if any of them became Skydivers? So much I am learning in my old age - so many of us from the 60's just stumbled thru life in our sheltered worlds without a clue of what was really going on in Cuba and other places. We are close to the same age, my experience was VERY different, (probably due to my employment choices), I became aware of “that other government” in the late sixties and early seventies and made many choices based on that knowledge. georger: QuoteThe implication is, she might be sucked out? Was it a fear that she may be “sucked out” or “fall out?” I don’t recall a clear statement. Bruce (Cousin Bruce) is doing an excellent job. Keep it up, Bruce. I keep seeing references and statements to the effect of “The FBI now thinks…” or “The FBI has changed it’s mind…” [NOTE: I have (probably) made statements like this myself.] I am wondering who (exactly) speaks for the FBI in matters such as this. The Bureau has its Public Information Office, each office has its Public Information Officer (the Seattle Office’s is Roberta Burroughs), they have their web-site, and SA Carr is the Agent-In-Charge (of record) for NORJAK. But when making a statement like “The FBI now thinks…” who are we talking about. Or, maybe a better way of saying it is “Does the Bureau have an opinion about the current state of NORJAK (other than – it’s a cold case)? [This is obviously a rhetorical question… I don’t really expect answers.] Web Page Blog NORJAK Forum Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Orange1 0 #12614 August 24, 2009 yes. welcome back, and hope the surgery was minor...Skydiving: wasting fossil fuels just for fun. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
BruceSmith 3 #12615 August 25, 2009 Greetings Y'all, I just had a wonderful one-hour-plus phone conversation with SOG trooper JD Bath, codenamed “Tub” back in the old days of running recon when he ran with Ted Braden. JD served two tours of duty in Vietnam: May ’66 to April ’67, and then April ‘71- April ‘72. JD served with Ted Braden on JD’s first tour in 1966, on RT Colorado. JD was the 1-2 – the radio guy. The Navy Seal, Gary Shadduck was the third team member at this time. Jim Hetrick would later join the team as 1-1 when Shadduck left to go back to Seal World at China Beach. JD discounted Hetrick's view that Shadduck was a spy for SOG HQ to ferret out info on Braden. JD viewed it as a routine assignment of a Navy Seal into SOG-Army duty. JD’s view of Ted Braden differs sharply from what Hetrick told me, and also corroborates some very important information from Bill Kendall Here’s what JD told me: “Ted could have done it – the Cooper thing. He was certainly capable of doing it. He knew how to carry a gun and how to use it….He planned things out, he was very thorough, and very calm. Ted Braden was a cool-headed team leader, and he had a flair for the unorthodox. He was not afraid to do things….He always knew what he was doing, and always got us out safely.” JD confirmed what Hetrick said about Ted’s solo trips to Saigon to debrief. However, JD said that was not uncommon as “somebody had to stay behind with the ’little people’ – a common SOG term for the Yards and South Vietnamese soldiers and support staff, and used by JD throughout our conversation. The tone of his voice was not racist, but more familiar-like, comparable to calling me a Yankee, or a New Yorker. Not fully-friendly and respectful, but certainly familiar and with tones of warmth. JD also confirms Ted’s strong involvement with the CIA. “Ted told us once, ‘If you see me in Saigon and I’m wearing civilian clothes and I’m with a bunch of guys who are also wearing civilian clothes – you don’t know me, and I don’t know you.’” Ted also received specialized equipment from the CIA, including a fancy camera that had infrared capabilities, and also voice-activate listening devices to place along the Ho Chi Minh Trail. JD paints a different picture of Ted’s personality than we’ve heard before. “I never saw him drunk. He never got wasted in camp. When things got slow and we were standing down, Ted was totally laid back. But when it was time to go to work, he was all business. Ted knew a lot of people down in Saigon, so maybe he drank there, but never back in camp at Kontum.” JD also said that Ted liked to smoke a pipe, and would just go off by himself, have a smoke, and read a book. “He was a loner. He would just go off by himself.” JD also described Ted as an educated man with “at least a year or two of college,” and said Ted was well-spoken and articulate. “He was a suave-y kind of guy.” JD was also very impressed at Ted’s ability and commitment to stay in shape, and mentioned the morning sit-ups that Hardy did. “Ted really stayed in shape to keep up with the younger men. Heck- he was in his late thirties.” JD added that in battle Ted knew what he was doing. “He never panicked or got wild-eyed. Ted was one of the best team leaders that I served with in Vietnam, and I learned a lot from Ted.” JD described Ted as sharp-eyed, perceptive, and able to keep his cool under pressure. Ted’s confidence, skill and calm demeanor was a profound asset to RT Colorado. “Ted was good for the team, especially with the Yards. We had a cohesive team.” JD said the Yards were good in the boonies, but they would run if they thought the team leader was getting twitchy, scared, or couldn’t think fast on his feet. JD also said that Jim Hetrick at first liked Ted, and learned a lot from him as well. However, over time, Hetrick and Braden had a falling-out that started over how Ted paid his “little people” on the team. JD said that Hetrick was more by the book, and Ted did things his own ways, including the heavy usage of brides and financial pay-offs to get things done. JD also gave a unique perspective on Ted Braden’s history, saying that Ted received his Lieutenant’s commission in the Korean War, but lost it and was mustered out of the Army after Ted physically beat up a sergeant “who was not moving the men forward.” JD said, “Ted was brought back in as an enlisted man for the Vietnam War, and worked his way up to E-7 by ‘66.” JD also said something similar to what Kendall said about Ted’s reported competitive skydiving for the Army in Germany in the early 1960s. “I never heard any of that,” JD announced. When I mentioned Golden Arrows to JD, it sounded like it was an unfamiliar term to him, as well. The Hue Incident JD had a lot to say about the incident at Hue where Ted flipped out and pointed a gun at JD and called him a coward. JD said that RT Colorado had been assigned to a special job out of Phu Bai. They left Kontum in time to have a little extra time in Phu Bai to see the sights in near-by Hue, and they headed up there by truck. On the highway, they were ambushed. The driver, an American, drove the truck into a ditch, and Braden, Shadduck and JD ran successfully behind a railroad embankment and tracks. Apparently there were some Vietnamese soldiers with them and the Americans got weapons from them. Braden had his pistol with him. Hearing the fire-fight, some “puff patrol” came up through a rice paddy. They were local police or militia, but Braden mistook them for VC and killed one. In the course of the fire-fight they moved into a nearby village. In one particular hooch an elderly Vietnamese woman was sitting “Buddha-style,” with her hands folded underneath a shawl. Ted ordered JD to kill her, and he refused. Ted ordered him again to kill her. JD put he muzzle of his gun to the woman’s head and she uncovered her hands from the shawl. She had “Buddha beads,” and not the grenade that Braden had feared. Then Braden ordered JD to move the woman to see if she was sitting over a trap door, hideaway. She moved, and it was just a dirt floor. Then a Marine company moved up and finished the fire-fight. At the end, the American truck driver wanted to return to Phu Bai, and JD and Shadduck concurred and sat on the tail gate of the truck, ready to go. Ted said he wanted them to join him and continue their trip to Hue, but they refused. Ted pointed his rifle at them and ordered them not to move. He called them yellow-bellied------etc. cowards, and told them he didn’t want them on his team; and ultimately declared they were off his team. Then, a Vietnamese city bus drove by and Ted commandeered it, putting his pistol to the driver’s head, and he drove off to Hue. Ted, apparently, came back latter that night to Phu Bai, because the next morning at breakfast he sat down calmly with JD and Shadduck and announced –“Well, do you guys have all your gear ready to go?” Shadduck and JD said, “No, we’re off the team,” and JD added that he wouldn’t ever go out on a recon with anyone who had ever called him a coward. “Who told you that?” replied Ted. JD said that Ted seemed to have zero remembrance of what he had said the day before. JD and Shadduck went on the recon several days later because the CO at Phu Bai said he really needed the intel that they were going after. JD also said that he had seen Braden “go schizophrenic” several times, and described several instances of Ted being off-base after curfew and once driving a truck through an ARVN check-point and another where American MPs brought him back to Kontum in handcuffs, and had a follow-up altercation with the Master Sergeant that ended with Ted threatening to kill the soldier. “But Ted didn’t really mean it” said JD. “He was just messing with his head.” JD described the sergeant as someone who had little respect from the SOG troopers and was pulling an ego trip by messing with Braden. “Ted suffered from combat fatigue, PTSD or whatever you want to call it” said JD. He was in combat too long.” JD has a lot of fondness for Ted. “Ted was one of the old hands, and you never heard any of the old hands talk down about Ted Braden. Most of them were in Korea, so they understood Ted. They’d tell me to tell Hetrick to tone it down about Ted.” Also: “Ted had a girl friend in Vietnam, in Na Trang,” said JD. “But the woman had a husband who was an ARVN soldier. Ted told us one night, ‘That guy’s getting to be a real pain in the ass. Why don’t you guys take him out?’ he said to me and Shadduck. We said we would, and asked him where the girl friend lived, and where the husband was, and all that, but we wouldn’t have done it. We were just talking big – trying to be big shots like Ted.” Braden’s Disappearance I asked JD what it was like when Ted disappeared. “Well, Ted had gone down to Saigon for a debriefing, just like usual. When you’d go down there, they would keep you for a few days, maybe four or five days. So when he wasn’t back for a while we didn’t think too much of it. But after seven days or so, people began asking, “Where’s Ted,’ and we didn’t know. “Eventually, we got another replacement, a Lt. George Sisler became our team leaders, and we just resumed our recons.” Is Ted Braden DB Cooper? I asked JD, knowing Braden as well as he did, why would Ted do the Cooper skyjacking? “Early retirement, I guess.” When I told JD about the Theodore Braden the DZ team had discovered in Pittsburgh and that neighbors had described him as a long-distance truck driver, JD was quite dismissive. “I can’t see Ted sitting behind a wheel, driving a truck for somebody, half out of his mind. Unless he had medical problems or other issues and it was the only thing he could do.” JD declared that Ted had too many skills not to be in demand as a mercenary or a covert operative. “Ted had a lot of contacts. He could be working for the mafia or somebody. There are lots of people Ted could be working for. A lot of guys went to work for those people.” I asked JD how tall Ted was. “He was about as tall as me, and I’m 5-8.” When I told JD about the reports of Cooper being six-foot, and having deep, dark, penetrating brown eyes, JD replied: Ted could’ve used contacts and elevated shoes. That’s the kind of thing Ted would do – he would anticipate things, figure things out, have a plan. He would have thought it all out.” ************************************ Welcome back, Sluggo. Glad you're around, again. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
snowmman 3 #12616 August 25, 2009 Remember when I said I cancelled my newspaper subscription and how newspaper guys don't work the contacts like they used to, to get all of the story. Well I take that back. Bruce is working the rolodex, running up the phone bill..I"m picturing a beatup keyboard, cigarette butts in the ashtray, a scotch, neat, sitting next to the monitor. A broken desklamp that won't stay pointing right, always needing adjustment.....And he gets us a story. Every day. We just need the cranky editor yelling at him "Bruce, give it up, there's nothing there...now get out to the Little League field and get the scores"...and Bruce shuffles off...but in the parking lot of the baseball field, he finds a mom, who knows someone at the VFW, who knows someone who was 1-2 on RT Iowa. And Bruce's eyes narrow a bit, and he whispers "You got a phone number for me?".... and she says "...oh, well you know I'm married"... "No, No, the 1-2! What's his number!" Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
snowmman 3 #12617 August 25, 2009 Bruce said "JD served two tours of duty in Vietnam: May ’66 to April ’67, and then April ‘71- April ‘72." That's weird. What did he do in between? Was he still military, just stateside? Or did he re-enlist? Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
snowmman 3 #12618 August 25, 2009 Bruce said "Ted also received specialized equipment from the CIA, including a fancy camera that had infrared capabilities, and also voice-activate listening devices to place along the Ho Chi Minh Trail." There was a whole program of planting sensors and recording their information, to track trucks etc. I haven't red of infrared, although I've seen some aerial recon photos from Greco's book, and the camera that was standard issue. I've posted before about how they started experimenting with nightvision stuff in Vietnam. 377 has posted on heli mounted stuff too. I'll get the picture of the standard camera. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
skyjack71 0 #12619 August 25, 2009 Need some help with something I have kept to myself because I do not know what it is related to. This may track back to my first husband as it does not appear to be Duane's handwriting. My daughter was going to run the names by her father, but she never did. So here goes: A yellowed piece of paper with 3 names on it: Huey Hunter US Army Joseph Cox US Army Larry McIver US Army I believe this is something that survived my first marriage, but I do NOT remember . It was in a pocket atlas with Compliments of Continental West on it. This seems to have been issued in Colorado, but no date. I do not know if this is where the piece of paper was originally. A page on this map is turned down - do not know which of these maps it is turned down for - Mexico, Maritime Provinces and Western Canada. The pocket Atlas was definitely Duane's but I think the note may have been placed there by me in the last 37 yrs. I divorced my first husband of 10 yrs in 1971. If it was me turning down a page it would mean Western Canada, but it could just be a general marking of this section.Copyright 2006, 2007, 2008, 2009, 2010, 2011, 2012 2013, 2014, 2015 by Jo Weber Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
snowmman 3 #12620 August 25, 2009 I talked about this book before, because it repeats some of the early detail about Braden arriving in Vietnam. But here are some photos from the book. On the camera shown (EES-2) (I was thinking of it on Bruce's mention of cameras) "The camera used in the field by the recon teams, at least in 1969-70 was an Olympus Pen EES-2 half-frame model. It was relatively easy to use, quiet, compact and usually loaded with a 36-exposure roll of Kodak black-and-white 400 ASA film. The half-frame feature provided up to 72 exposures on one roll of film. (Some thought that the S-2 designation, which in the military corresponds to company-level intelligence, meant that it was designed specifically for us. But that was just coincidence; the S-2 was just an improved model made by Olympus.) CISO's Ben Baker originally obtained the first model (a Pen EE) used earlier on cross-border missions." Some aerial photos, and a weekly report also attached from the book. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
snowmman 3 #12621 August 25, 2009 Bruce reports: "JD also gave a unique perspective on Ted Braden’s history, saying that Ted received his Lieutenant’s commission in the Korean War, but lost it and was mustered out of the Army after Ted physically beat up a sergeant “who was not moving the men forward.” " Yeah, everything I ever saw about Braden said Sergeant. Really surprising he was Lieutenant! I wonder if Bath can confirm that Braden enlisted during WWII, lying about his age... Hardy confirmed that (maybe from the Ramparts article)...he said 101st airborne? If so, then he must have left, and joined again later, if he only had 14 years in, in 1966-1967? Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
snowmman 3 #12622 August 25, 2009 Bruce said "JD also said something similar to what Kendall said about Ted’s reported competitive skydiving for the Army in Germany in the early 1960s. “I never heard any of that,” JD announced. " Send them the articles from '61 and '62 I posted, especially the one with all the photos of Ted demonstrating the skydiving positions. They'll get a kick out of those! A Ted they didn't know! Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
snowmman 3 #12623 August 25, 2009 Really good job getting this other version of Ted from JD, Bruce. Really nice putting some depth to a person that obviously had a lot going on. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
snowmman 3 #12624 August 25, 2009 We have the full social security number for the Ted B. Braden that died in PA. But I don't think there's anything we could do with it. Too bad we don't have FBI. They could probably get working records based on it? The PA Ted was the rightish age. I think it's the same Ted. Did Bath know where Braden was born? We have the birth state from the WWII enlistment, if that's the same Braden. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
skyjack71 0 #12625 August 25, 2009 A yellowed piece of paper with 3 names on it: Huey Hunter US Army Joseph Cox US Army Larry McIver US Army There are complete names with RA#, HqCo. # and one of them says Nev VLM Germany. I will make these available to someone who is able to do the search for me - but do NOT want to make them public if they have something to do with the father of my children - who did serve in Germany and was discharged around 1959 - I am thinking these names are in connectioned to him and NOT Duane. Not feeling very good so I am going to lie down - I may check the forum later. Thanks.Copyright 2006, 2007, 2008, 2009, 2010, 2011, 2012 2013, 2014, 2015 by Jo Weber Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
