DB Cooper

[snowmman 3]

Quote

Westmoreland's name has come up a few times in discussions about Nam here.

In Prison Break there was a character called Westmoreland.
In the storyline, he was actually DB Cooper.

I'm just sayin' ....

funny!

In Plaster's books, it's actually quite interesting to see how they put together the team of top level guys at the start. Some had backgrounds going back to WII. The top position was called Chief SOG, and was held by a couple of people over the years.

I had one line of thinking about Vietnam histories, and war and how populations and societies absorb the ideas over time.

We get used to the idea that the "truth" is told by the guys on the ground..the guys on the front lines, in the trenches, with the heartbreaking buddy stories.

But in reality, they're just reacting, yes in a superhuman way, given the box that was defined for them. The goals, the gear, the restrictions on their conduct.

Even though they might think they have infinite freedom to act noblely, the outcomes are pretty much constrained by higher level things...for instance all the troops and supplies coming thru Cambodia and Laos, on trails you couldn't see from the air.

And that the NVA were comfortable living in the jungle, and were actually an impressive fighting force, and had the home field advantage.

But we don't see as many stories from the top to middle level guys. Because those stories would be pretty ugly. They're less romantic. But the way those decisions were made and who made them, probably were primary contributors.

In the few snippets I've read about the very early years, it's amazing how basically all the shit in Southeast Asia was nonstop from WWII on. I'm also less impressed with Kennedy.

Lack of knowledge was a big thing. Lots of actions based on little knowledge.

(edit) Chief SOGs

1965-1966 Brigadier General Donald Blackburn
1966-1968 Major General Jack Singlaub
1968-1970 Colonel Steve Cavanaugh
1970-1972 Colonel John Sadler

[snowmman 3]

The following was taken from USARV GTA 21-1 (September 1967). Each soldier arriving in the Republic of Vietnam was issued this GTA (General Training Aid), which measured 2 1/2 x 3 1/2 inches, and required to keep it on his person at all times.

The Enemy In Your Hands

As a member of the U.S. Military Forces, you will comply with the Geneva Prisoner of War Conventions of 1949 to which your country adheres. Under these conventions:

You Can And You Will
Disarm your prisoner
Immediately search him thoroughly
Require him to be silent
Segregate him from other prisoners
Guard him carefully
Take him to the place designated by your commander

You Cannot And Must Not
Mistreat your prisoner
Humiliate or degrade him
Take any of his personal effects which do not have significant military value
Refuse him medical treatment if required and available

1. Handle Him Firmly, Promptly, but Humanely
The captive in your hands must be disarmed, searched, secured, and watched. But he must also be treated at all times as a human being. He must not be tortured, killed, mutilated, or degraded, even if he refuses to talk. If the captive is a woman, treat her with all respect due her sex.

2. Take The Captive Quickly To Security
As soon as possible evacuate the captive to a place of safety and interrogation designated by your commander. Military documents taken from the captive are also sent to the interrogators, but the captive will keep his personal equipment except weapons.

3. Mistreatment Of Any Captive Is A Criminal Offense. Every Soldier Is Personally Responsible For The Enemy In His Hands
It is both dishonorable and foolish to mistreat a captive. It is also a punishable offense. Not even a beaten enemy will surrender if he knows his captors will torture or kill him. He will resist and make his capture more costly. Fair treatment of captives encourages the enemy to surrender.

4. Treat The Sick And Wounded Captive As Best You Can
The captive saved may be an intelligence source. In any case he is a human being and must be treated like one. The soldier who ignores the sick and wounded degrades his uniform.

5. All Persons In Your Hands, Whether Suspects, Civilians, Or Combat Captives, Must Be Protected Against Violence, Insults, Curiousity, and Reprisals Of Any Kind
Leave punishment to the courts and judges. The soldier shows his strength by his fairness, firmness, and humanity to the persons in his hands.
Key Phrases

English Vietnamese

Halt -- Dung Lai
Lay Down Your Gun -- Buong Sung Xuong
Put Up Your Hands -- Dura tay len
Keep Your Hands On Your Head -- Dura tay len dau
I Will Search You -- Toi kham ong
Do Not Talk -- Dung Noi Chuyen
Walk There -- Lai Dang Kia
Turn Right -- Xay Ben Phai
Turn Left -- Xay Ben Trai
Have A Nice Day -- Chou Ang

[snowmman 3]

http://www.rjsmith.com/kia_tbl.html

NVA casualty data was provided by North Vietnam in a press release to Agence France Presse (AFP) on April 3, 1995, on the 20th anniversary of the end of the Vietnam War. The entire press release, along with more detailed breakdowns (say by year) is at the url above.

US casualty information was derived from the Combat Area Casualty File of 11/93, and The Adjutant General's Center (TAGCEN) file of 1981, available from the National Archives. Additional information was derived from the sources listed at the end of this document.

Entire.War
Force.......KIA...........WIA...............MIA........CIA
US.Forces......47,378 (1)...304,704 (2).....2,338 (3)..766 (4)
ARVN..........223,748.....1,169,763.........NA.........NA
South.Korea.....4,407........17,060.........NA.........NA
Australia.........469.........2,940.............6......NA
Thailand..........351.........1,358.........NA.........NA
New.Zealand........55...........212.........NA.........NA
NVA/VC......1,100,000.......600,000.........NA.........26,000 (5)

Note 1: there were an additional 10,824 non-hostile deaths for a total of 58,202
Note 2: of the 304,704 WIA, 153,329 required hospitalization
Note 3: this number decreases as remains are recovered and identified
Note 4: 114 died in captivity
Note 5: Does not include 101,511 Hoi Chanh


The Agence France Presse (French Press Agency) news release of 4 April 1995 concerning the Vietnamese Government's release of official figures of dead and wounded during the Vietnam War.

HANOI (AP) - April 4. Cinq millions de morts: 20 ans apregraves la fin de la guerre du Vietnam, le gouvernement de Hanoi a reacute veacute leacute, lundi, le bilan d'un conflit dent le nombre de victimes avait eacute teacute minore a l'eacutepoque pour ne pas affecter le moral de la population.

Selon Hanoi, il y a eu pres de deux millions de morts dans la population civile du Nord et deux autres millions dans celle du Sud. Quant aux combats proprement dits, les chiffres sent d'un million cent mille militaires tueacutes et de 600.000 blesseacutes en 21 ans de guerre.

Ce dernier bilan comprend a la fois les victimes de la guerilla vietcong et les soldats nord-vietamiens qui les eacute paulaient. Les preacute ceacute dentes estimations de source occidentale faisaient eacute tat d'un bilan de 666.000 morts parmi Ies combattants Vietnamiens.

Translation

The Hanoi government revealed on April 4 that the true civilian casualties of the Vietnam War were 2,000,000 in the north, and 2,000,000 in the south. Military casualties were 1.1 million killed and 600,000 wounded in 21 years of war. These figures were deliberately falsified during the war by the North Vietnamese Communists to avoid demoralizing the population.

End Translation

Note: Given a Vietnamese population of approximately 38 million during the period 1954-1975, Vietnamese casualties represent a good 12-13% of the entire population. To put this in perspective, consider that the population of the US was 220 million during the Vietnam War. Had The US sustained casualties of 13% of its population, there would have been 28 million US dead.

------------------------
Additional Casualty Statistics
Source: Combat Area Casualty File of 11/93, National Archives

All US Forces KIA in Vietnam = 58,169
US Army Soldiers KIA in Vietnam = 38,190
US Army Infantrymen (MOS 11B, 11C, etc.) KIA in Vietnam = 20,460
US Army Helicopter Crewmen KIA in Vietnam = 3,007
US Army Scouts KIA in Vietnam = 1,127
US Army Tankers KIA in Vietnam = 725 (equals 27% of all tankers ever assigned to Vietnam)
US Marines Killed In Action in Vietnam = 14,836
The highest loss-rate for any MOS was 11E (Armor Crewman) 27% KIA

[Sluggo_Monster 0]

snowmman said:

Quote

Poser.
It's called Hotlanta.

Good catch... you're "on to me!"

Sluggo_Monster

Web Page
Blog
NORJAK Forum

[snowmman 3]

some stuff from the perspective of a tank guy

1) Ammo Box Altar. Chaplain Jack Day Conducts Dak To Service

2) Long exposure of AC-47 Spooky gunship firing at night (68-69?)

3) C Co unloads VC corpses after fight near Cu Chi - Apr 66

4) Blackhawk Sign on eastbound QL-19 between Pleiku and Mang Yang Pass

5) C-123s Spraying Agent Orange right on troops on Strongpoint 10, Hwy 19E, Jan 1969

6) Montangard Craftsmen - making crossbows, and arrows that would be tipped with Curare.

7) Herding cattle - Herd of cattle being driven home at curfew time on Hwy 19 near An Khe.

8) Charlie 16 - Tanks accompany artillery on raid to CP102

9) 8-inch Howitzer Camera catches "projo" leaving M-110 8-inch howitzer tube 1967

source:
http://www.rjsmith.com/scrapbook.html

[snowmman 3]

Quote

snowmman said:

Quote

Poser.
It's called Hotlanta.

Good catch... you're "on to me!"

Sluggo_Monster

Poser.
It's called Atlanta.

[Sluggo_Monster 0]

I am a "prisoner of war."

I am a "human being."

According to the Geneva Convention, you must treat me humanely.

Ever see the TV series “Prisoner” from the 1960s?

I am NOT number six!

Web Page
Blog
NORJAK Forum

[snowmman 3]

Quote

I am a "prisoner of war."

I am a "human being."

According to the Geneva Convention, you must treat me humanely.

Ever see the TV series “Prisoner” from the 1960s?

I am NOT number six!

Sorry, I keep thinking Cheney is still running things! Got to take his picture off the wall.

[snowmman 3]

"I am not a number! I am a free man!"
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=29JewlGsYxs
nice mashup here:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RsptrgBPvZw&feature=related

(also see http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Prisoner )

Also, apparently a tv miniseries (remake) has been shot, about to be aired?
The Prisoner is an upcoming 2009 television miniseries based on the 1960s TV series The Prisoner. It is produced by American cable network AMC in co-operation with British channel ITV.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Prisoner_(2009_TV_miniseries)

reviews of the original:
----
"The Prisoner" is a unique piece of television. It addresses issues such as personal identity and freedom, democracy, education, scientific progress, art and technology, while still remaining an entertaining drama series. Over seventeen episodes we witness a war of attrition between the faceless forces behind 'The Village' (a Kafkaesque community somewhere between Butlins and Alcatraz) and its most strong willed inmate, No. 6. who struggles ceaselessly to assert his individuality while plotting to escape from his captors.

-------
A high-ranking but un-named Agent in the British Government resigns from his job/post and leaves for a holiday. While packing he is gassed and is taken to a beautiful but deadly prison known only as "The Village" where people are taken, given a Number to be called by and kept there for the rest of their lives if they don't tell No. 2 (the deputy head of "The Village") the information they are captured for. Escape is nearly impossible as "The Village" has amazing but deadly weapons to use if anybody tries to escape. The Agent is given the title of "No. 6" but he adopts the name of "The Prisoner". The series tells of his attempts to resist the plots of each No. 2 (who is replaced with another if an attempt on No. 6 fails) to get his information and against any attempt to disrupt the nearly peaceful running of the "The Village". The Village is determined to crack The Prisoner by attempting to get the answer to why he resigned from his job/post. As time goes on, two questions plague The Prisoner's mind - How can he escape and who is the real leader of the Village - the mysterious No. 1?.

------
A man who drives a 60's Lotus sports car around London resigns from a top secret job. We next see him packing for a holiday at home, and a credit appears ... "The Prisoner". He is gassed, falls asleep and then wakes up in "The Village". Everyone in "The Village" is a number, and is there for security reasons (people too dangerous and who hold too much information to just let go). The series spends all its time trying to get the "information" out of No.6 about why he resigned. Plus it spends quite a while chasing him with a weather balloon :-) A strange cult UK TV series.

[Orange1 0]

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(a Kafkaesque community somewhere between Butlins and Alcatraz)

!!!!

Skydiving: wasting fossil fuels just for fun.

[snowmman 3]

Quote

Quote

(a Kafkaesque community somewhere between Butlins and Alcatraz)

!!!!

You must conform!
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-xNuQ7Do_Ro&feature=related

(edit) or maybe:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Redcoats_(Butlins)

[Orange1 0]

do Americans know Butlins??

Skydiving: wasting fossil fuels just for fun.

[snowmman 3]

Quote

do Americans know Butlins??

I had never heard of it. Just read on wikipedia after you snipped that line.

It's weird. Sounds like a twist on Disneyland/Disneyworld here.

We still like our Disneylands. I guess that's a good thing?

[Orange1 0]

from what i understand it's quite removed from disneyland...!

Have you seen "Tommy"? From what I understand the holiday camp in that was modelled on Butlins.

haha - Snow and his connections - look:

Quote

Billy Butlin was born in South Africa.

Skydiving: wasting fossil fuels just for fun.

[snowmman 3]

Quote

from what i understand it's quite removed from disneyland...!

Have you seen "Tommy"? From what I understand the holiday camp in that was modelled on Butlins.

haha - Snow and his connections - look:

Quote

Billy Butlin was born in South Africa.

:) Yes it's like the 6 degrees of Kevin Bacon. The 6 degrees of South Africa.
But I can top that.
377 made the "Paintball Wizard" reference like last week, talking about Tom Kaye.

He knew we were going to be talking about Butlins and you'd compare it to "Tommy"
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-ZCwiNJ4wgo

(edit) and my Jack Nicholson reference
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wxfPIe2qqxw&feature=related

[snowmman 3]

Okay, I had to really pull some weight to get this done.
But I knew Sluggo would mention The Prisoner, so even though it's not premiering till November, the guys got AMC to release a 9-minute clip at ComicCon.

Enjoy:

http://link.brightcove.com/services/player/bcpid1119352258?bctid=30345659001

They wanted to post it at "brightlight.com", but I said "what are you stupid? and we settled on "brightcove.com"

(edit) also at youtube: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3FqQsaK5KpQ

[skyjack71 0]

Quote

The issue from the beginning has been where did
Cooper bail and land. The truth is: Nobody knows. If they knew this case would have been closed long ago. Evidence is not that hard to find. If it exists at
all!

The evidence does not exist because a decision was made, consciously or unconsciously, to wait until evidence presented itself. The search for hard evidence (Cooper & the money) stopped almost immediately after the Lake Merwin search failed.

I believe the decision to stop the hard search was made as an overt act of avoidance by certain people wishing to avoid what they feared most - that Cooper had survived, at least long enough to move for a time trying to escape. The premature
decision that "Cooper died" has been central to the FBI's whole case, and it is the one thing the
FBI has never wanted to be proven wrong.

Jo's Statement:
The things I have learned in the last 2 days along with what I did know before - my mind is reeling, I can't post it or talk about it. Your post has gone down that road....you stated:

Quote

The premature decision that "Cooper died" has been central to the FBI's whole case, and it is the one thing the FBI has never wanted to be proven wrong

.

Jo's Statement:
Other things played into this decision - and it was not a decision made by the FBI but others higher up. You are aware of this.

Quote

A decision was made to do nothing and wait. Then the money turned up on its own, at Tina Bar. People scrambled, literally! Once again a very poor investigation followed in haste, perhaps purposefully rushed, but with a big flurry and many people involved (just as at Lake Merwin). It is almost as if they wished the money to be buried again so it could vanish under a poor investigation, avoiding the central issues at stake.

Jo's Statement:
The "truth" may never be made public - but, it is not fair. Certain information and files were destroyed or never placed in the system. The wait and see served "authorities" well over the past 37 yrs, but they didn't know back then technology would develope to the extent it is today and the truth would eventually surface.

Quote

A team of 3-5 people could have done a better job at Tina Bar vrs. the mob and the roadshow that was assembled, for media consumption. At every stage "somebody" in the FBI has been calling the wrong shots, almost as if trying to prove something in a great display of power and prowess, but avoiding slow methodical sober investigative technique in the process - and the roadshow continues to this very day. It all adds up to AVOIDANCE.

Jo's Statement:
Deliberate AVOIDANCE, but not because Cooper died...but because he was but a small part of a much bigger picture that would RAISE doubts about the National Security of this place we call America.

Quote

The problem with the Washougal washdown theory is that is forces us to accept a series of very complex low probability events over time, in order to get anything to Tina Bar. And it preserves the "he died" theory Himmelsbach has promoted since Day-1. Larry Carr's rationalisations are simply an extension of the Himmelsbach theory. I thought Larry was smarter!

The condition of the money at Tina Bar does not support the long complex washdown theory required by the Washougal theory.

Jo's Statement:
I told you this and I told the FBI which was mostly Himmelsbach over the yrs as the current active FBI didn't hear me at all. The washdown theory was a complete hoax - the FBI just wanted Cooper to disappear.

Authorities needed to bury Cooper - they needed to get it over and done with because with even a hint Cooper survived - the speculation and questions and theories would only continue to grow and manifest. Little where they aware that what was being done would uncover some very dirty laundry.

Quote

There is literally nothing in the money that cries "I came from the Washougal". And there
are other aspects of the money which suggest 'I could not have traveled that far and survived a
highly destructive trip lasting years'.

Jo's Statement:
Told the officials this yrs ago.

Quote

I think it was a relatively short travel distance, and that implies Cooper did not die and moved (perhaps trying to get back to Portland for help) after his jump.

Jo's Statement:
Again I told them this yrs ago.

Quote

I have no problem and several reasons for believing the money may have arrived at Tina Bar in the period 1978-80, but not from the Washougal.

.

Jo's Statement:
I told them this yrs ago.

Quote

And I believe this is the last thing the FBI wants to hear.

Jo's Statement:
The LAST thing the FBI wants to hear is Duane Weber was Cooper. Why? A common criminal or was he part of a much bigger picture - was the Real Cooper used as a pawn by others? Bamboozeled!

Copyright 2006, 2007, 2008, 2009, 2010, 2011, 2012 2013, 2014, 2015 by Jo Weber

[snowmman 3]

Jo said: "RAISE doubts about the National Security of this place we call America."

There is no security. Get over it.

When we discuss national security, it's only economic issues, i.e. protecting economic interests. I suppose indirectly that is vital for personal security. But potatoes can grow in a lot of places and don't need much sun.

Now you can argue the moral side: USA serving as policeman in the world, protecting those less strong. Well, I dunno about that one. I'll stay away from that hot potato.

Now you could say there is loose technology that can kill a bunch of people at once. Yes that's true. But the numbers aren't as staggering as the tens, hundreds of thousands killed as a result of various political issues, all over the planet.

I think the main focus should be on political disagreements and what causes them. Competition for resources (imbalance of wealth etc.) guarantees conflict. So we shouldn't be surprised at the existence of conflict. There should be conflict!

If the USA's plan is that it's all about killing everyone that might want to harm us, it ain't going to work. Because the "everyone that might want to harm us" includes US citizens!!! (see McVeigh etc)

[snowmman 3]

Jo has always been intriguing.
She's posted a lot of crazy stuff, so it's easy to find random connections.

In the context of the present discussion, this old post of hers is interesting, or not!

Jo said:
"There was a "China Man" Duane knew. (I don't know if he was Chinese or Japanese), but when his path crossed with Duane's during our marriage (he knew Duane as John). We were invited to his home one evening. Duane asked him if he still painted. He pointed to paintings on the wall - these painting if I remember right were watercolors and sketches. There were towers (like guard towers) and lots of gold colors.

I was NOT told what they were of - but from the conversation it was someplace that they both were at - because of the conversation which they kept brief. I now believe those towers to have been a prison or encampment, but not a regular prison. Duane asked about "TW's" first wife - TW said she had died - there were grown children from that first wife.
He had remarried and had a couple of Cookie Crumb Crushers in 1980.

I did not know TW's age - I am not good at judging age of oriental individuals. They were both very careful what was said in front of his wife and me. They were friends but in a strange way that I didn't comprehend...caring, knowing, secretive, protective - honor for one another. I have some conjectures about this, but that is all. TW died a few yrs ago, but I did not question his widow because she knew NO more than I did about the past of these two.

In 1980 if the wife was deceased and the kids grown that meant that Duane knew TW in the 60's. There was another man around the same time - (TW, this man and Duane knew each other) - the other name and the man who told me "If you want to be around to play with your Grandkids - destroy everything you have and do not look back - Duane knew people in HIGH places." He was nervous and didn't want to talk to me when I called him - this is all he told me in 1996. "

[377 22]

Was unable to watch, no cable/sat TV at my place. I'd like to see a few post show synopses and critiques posted here. How was it?

377

2018 marks half a century as a skydiver. Trained by the late Perry Stevens D-51 in 1968.

[Sluggo_Monster 0]

Technically Incorrect
Disjointed
Fictionalized
Good Cinematography

Much as I suspected, it will create interest in a new generation, but is a big dissapointment to regular posters here.

Web Page
Blog
NORJAK Forum

[georger 268]

Quote

Technically Incorrect
Disjointed
Fictionalized
Good Cinematography

Much as I suspected, it will create interest in a new generation, but is a big dissapointment to regular posters here.

The National Geo Advertising Channel didnt run it
here. Instead we are on the first repeat of UNIBOMBER.
Next up: HOW I FOUND THE ANTHRAX KILLER ...
and 30 mins of drug, insurance, and AARP ads.

So... Ive switched over and am watching "3 Obama Elvis on Three Nymphos"... a western.

[snowmman 3]

Quote

"3 Obama Elvis on Three Nymphos"... a western.

interracial 3 on 3 porn?
georger, I'm shocked!
This is how we find out?
You tell us?

[georger 268]

Quote

Quote

"3 Obama Elvis on Three Nymphos"... a western.

interracial 3 on 3 porn?
georger, I'm shocked!
This is how we find out?
You tell us?

But it got your attention!

[skyjack71 0]

Quote

Was unable to watch, no cable/sat TV at my place. I'd like to see a few post show synopses and critiques posted here. How was it?

377

Same here 377 - no cable - just an antennae in the attic and now with a converter box - loose channels in the middle of a program. Only dial-up computer connection which means watching TV on the computer doesn't work.

The darn converter box keeps me from getting channels and it take 3 remotes to turn my TV on and watch a program. Loose the signal in the middle of a program and it refuses to let me turn the volume up - won't let me record one channel and watch another - so what is the use of having a VCR.

Life was so simple before digital...I am not the only senior who cannot work all these gadgets. Buying a new TV will require a new cabinet for the TV. New TV's don't fit in our old solid wood cabinets and the new ones are all pressed board and ugly. I could get a little TV, but the living room is big - so I would be one of those old ladies sitting a straightback chair up close to the TV in the middle of the room.

Basic cable is not available here and I refuse to pay for a garbage I would never watch. Satellite doesn't work - I am in a black hole...with a tower that causes interference. My cell doesn't work in the house or in my back yard.

Copyright 2006, 2007, 2008, 2009, 2010, 2011, 2012 2013, 2014, 2015 by Jo Weber