DB Cooper

[377 22]

And I thought Apocalypse Now was over the top with exaggerated weird surreal stuff...

Coppola didn't even scratch the surface.

Oh, the humanity.

377

2018 marks half a century as a skydiver. Trained by the late Perry Stevens D-51 in 1968.

[Orange1 0]

Quote

page 48
"Before I could weep I wandered outside, lit a cigarette, and looked up a the moon. I'd read somewhere that the Greeks believed that as long as someone remembers you, you are immortal. Aloud, I vowed I would never forget my teammates, never, though I had hardly known them... "


Does anyone else read anything into that line that I do?

I think that line has nothing to do with Cooper, and everything to do with people fighting in a war, in a unit with a terrifyingly high casualty rate. If you die for your country it would be good to know that someone remembered you. I would go so far as to say that I think that linking it back to Cooper demeans it entirely.

Skydiving: wasting fossil fuels just for fun.

[skyjack71 0]

Quote

Jo,
It's not even worth re-verifying dates.
People rewrite stories for new publications all the time. There is nothing interesting about Duane Weber or anything he did.

You may not think so, but come and see what I have and talk to me - you will realilzed there is something there. Duane had a well versed secretive man able to control others and what was going on around him. This may simply be a survival skill acquired from his many imprisonments.

I took a nap today and had the weirdest dream I have ever had (note I normally DO not nap - so this was a very unusual).

There was a small community - shopping and restuarant like those built near the beach. There is a policeman in this dream - I guess he might have been an off duty security. I had started to go to the park area but decided to explore the shops - NOW, I said this was an unusual dream. Duane walks up to me - and I remark" You are alive - where have you been?" The man I am looking at is not really as old as Duane was when he died, but a younger gray haired version of what Duane might have looked like as he aged but with out the kidney disease - there was no extended abdomen, but his height had shrunk as it does with age.
He was wearing a medium blue jump suit (the dinky kind).

He answers he me "Around, mostly in the park area." I comment that I have been there and never saw him, but that many times I would see someone in a passing car and think he looked like him. I believe I am thinking he is homeless.

I seem to be calm in all of this and think he might be hungery and asked him if he would like to get something to eat. We go in to what appears to have been like the old narrow hole in wall restuarants, but we go thur a gate (note this is a dream). For some reason I am distracted either by the management or something, but it happens very quickly. Duane is not there nor is my purse.

Immediately I head toward the entrance telling management that the man with me stole my person. Just after I past the gate I look back and there is my purse hanging on the gate. Opening the purse I find that my check book and wallet are gone. Note: this kind of theft was one that Duane was noted for in his many crimes - forger of checks and use of credit cards...until they are maxed out.

I am thinking I can't tell the police a DEAD man took my purse. I didn't get a chance to ask him about Cooper and what all had been going on since he "died".

I head for my car because I can't find the keys - dream ends.

When I woke up I wanted to talk to someone about the dream, but I reviewed it over and over in my mind.
Since the park I associated with the homeless and I had this one particular man on my mind - wondering what I could do to help him. Duane was WARNING me, reminding me how quickly a good con can take you to the cleaners - to BEWARE - that I am making myself too visible.

Since I was going to write down the dream before I forgot it - I am doing it here. Thought you guys might need a little diversion from all of this serious investigative work you are doing.

Please do not try to analyze that dream - it was JUST a dream...I have been told stories about how he used other women in his life and at one time he did run a couple of my cards up - but he paid them off and I closed one of the accounts immediately. I even looked at the date and thought what is important about July 11th - no special day...the Blue Angels were putting on their annual show today.

Good Night and pleasant dreams!

Copyright 2006, 2007, 2008, 2009, 2010, 2011, 2012 2013, 2014, 2015 by Jo Weber

[Orange1 0]

Let's not forget that the only reason people "remember" Cooper is that he was never caught/found, and that is something he could not have known with 100% certainty when he committed the crime. No-one (other than family and a few buffs) remembers the other hijackers of the era (except people like us in a particular context). Going into the crime, why should Cooper have expected to be remembered for it any more than McCoy or any of the others we have discussed?

Skydiving: wasting fossil fuels just for fun.

[377 22]

Attachment shows a Huey with some special trick night vision gear on front. I worked with the guys who designed the system. Only a few were made. VERY expensive. Just the front lens for one of the sensors cost over $25,000! It used a 85mm spatially coherent fiber optic image pipe linking one sensor output to a pilot's monocular. You can see the big image pipe on the pilot's side.Guns could be slaved to aim with the sensor.

Something went terribly wrong on an early Nam mission using this. The Huey was lost. It was all hush hush, but persistent rumors of a night time shoot-down by another Huey and a coverup!

There were also rumors of flights deep into the North in these specially equipped Hueys (UH 1M?) with civilians aboard. Nobody knew what the missions were. Hard to know what really happened.

377

2018 marks half a century as a skydiver. Trained by the late Perry Stevens D-51 in 1968.

[snowmman 3]

Quote

And I thought Apocalypse Now was over the top with exaggerated weird surreal stuff...

Coppola didn't even scratch the surface.

Oh, the humanity.

377

I give Plaster the benefit of the doubt. I've read some SFer's review Plaster and point out some small things that they might think are literary license. But I think he falls in the factual camp. So anything he says, I take as truth.

These SF guys are tight. There's the bullshitter, maybe non-military, guys who came after, who look to the Vietnam guys for inspiration. But you can't just take their response for validation of the accounts.

The total numbers are small. I mentioned that Who's Who book of SF guys. We're just talking about a couple thousand. Even way smaller if you focus on the RTs. High casualty rates, lot of replacements? So in terms of "truth", it's only the guys who lived.

And some of the guys who lived, lived because they weren't as far out on the fringe. So truth is probably hard to be sure of.

I ordered a used copy of two of his books (cheap) to read the whole thing. The photo book is the only expensive one. Not getting that.

Context is everything.

My read, in comparing to other accounts, is that John probably gets the context right. I like that he's able to step past the macho bullshit and just say how it appeared to him.

Everyone seemed to have a different perspective, depending on a lot of things.

In reading about the late '60s Ft. Bragg SF training, one thing stands out to me: the training reflected a lot of knowledge gained in Vietnam, and created SF soldiers of a certain type.

Older SF, that came in thru Korea, etc, wouldn't have gone thru that SF boot camp kind of training, and would be in the field with a different background.

Don't know what that means, but age mattered, both in what you did and background.

(edit) Oh ps. I've read where Waugh may have been a little cold appearing to his men, maybe because of his age. For instance, in his book, I think he mentions not taking part in the drinking/song "ceremony" honoring new KIA...although I just cruised that so am a little unsure.

[snowmman 3]

interesting on the heli vision system.
Yeah I was reading on how they started trying night vision in Vietnam.

It was all new technology then, this night vision stuff...

Must have been a mad rush to try to develop stuff that people could use that was reliable.

I mean, people were dying every day. If you had something that could keep people from dying, it got pushed out quick I'm sure.

It's quite amazing the amount of night vision stuff they have nowadays.

[snowmman 3]

Quote

Let's not forget that the only reason people "remember" Cooper is that he was never caught/found, and that is something he could not have known with 100% certainty when he committed the crime. No-one (other than family and a few buffs) remembers the other hijackers of the era (except people like us in a particular context). Going into the crime, why should Cooper have expected to be remembered for it any more than McCoy or any of the others we have discussed?

In my weird twisted mind, I can imagine someone like Waugh seeing it as all upside:
1) if he dies, that's okay..no more war for him, what's a warrior to do?
2) if he lives, he's got the money, pretty confident of evasion skills
3) If caught, he's done so much shit in Vietnam (which isn't over yet), that knowing all the lies and bureaucracy going on, he's pretty sure it will get covered up, since exposing Waugh is worse then just saying "we can't find the hijacker"

Basically, no downside for Waugh, at all.

There's only downside if you're unskilled.

Like Dizzy Dean said:
"It ain't braggin' if you can do it"

(edit) I can't believe how Jo would misinterpret that line I reprinted. dumb.

[snowmman 3]

reading some articles this morning on suicide and homicide rates among returning troops, for various wars.

salon has an investigative series here
http://dir.salon.com/topics/coming_home/

sure they have a liberal bias, but heck, they're biased in support of soldiers here.

It's a good thing for us to think about the guys returning from Iraq and Afghanistan.

Being old, it's easy to forget that reality happens now, and the shit we talk about is way way back. Hopefully at least our talking about it gives us perspective.

I had a thought about guys like georger, a little older than me.
When I grew up, I was a bit younger than the guys returning from Vietnam. But at least I hung around them, like little flies they would laugh at.

I get the feeling georger is more mentally connected to the vet experience from before Vietnam. I don't know.

I remember getting a green fatigue shirt from my friend John, that was from his uncle in the Air Force. We both had them with the sleeves ripped off, and wore them around town all the time. They were like our little gang colors. Blue name tag, white embroidered letters. I can't remember the guy's name. But he made it home.

I remember hitchhiking. You get rides from all sorts. Once a vet on his way to a VA checkup. He had gotten shot up, not in any glory way, but after they took a boat for a joyride into town or something, and got attacked on the way back. Usually they'd pick you up because they wanted someone to roll joints while they were driving. I never was any good at rolling, though.

[Sluggo_Monster 0]

All,


The TV Listings showing the up-coming National Geographic is out this morning.

The Skyjacker That Got Away
First Prime Time Airing Sun Jul 26th at 10:00 PM EDT
Repeat Airing Sun Jul 26th at 11:00 PM EDT
Repeat Airing Sun Aug 2nd at 1:00 PM EDT


From National Geographic:
Overview:
On the eve of Thanksgiving, 1971 a man, dressed in a business suit, leaps out of the back of a commercial jet with a parachute and two hundred thousand dollars in ransom money. The hijacker, under the pseudonym Dan Cooper, is never seen again dead or alive, and it remains the only unsolved hijacking in U.S. history. The case has frustrated the FBI for nearly forty years but has given the public a lasting legend. Who was this daring hijacker and could he have survived? Now for the first time in FBI history a team of citizen sleuths, using modern forensic science, is helping unravel the mystery of D.B. Cooper.


ComCast Listing
New, HD, Probing the FBI's only unsolved hijacking case, which occurred on a 1971 flight from Portland, Ore., to Seattle, when a man calling himself Dan Cooper demanded $200,000 and four parachutes. He later parachuted out of the plane somewhere over Nevada (2009) (Documentary)

Nevada?

If anyone has a DVR that can output a DVD, I would appreciate a copy to pick apart. PM me for details.



Sluggo_Monster

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NORJAK Forum

[snowmman 3]

"Now for the first time in FBI history a team of citizen sleuths, using modern forensic science, is helping unravel the mystery of D.B. Cooper."

Does anyone know anything about the team?
I know Tom Kaye.
His girlfriend is on the FBI vid, but she seems totally unqualified for anything. I won't say bimbo, but bimbo.

What forensic science? Does Kaye have any forensic science training?


Who the hell is on this team? Georger has made it sound like there's a secret squad.

I wonder if Nat Geo will show the team with their faces and voices blacked out/modified.

(edit) I just had a really FUNNY thought.
Remember all the bullshit Tom gave about publishing in a scientific journal? The scientific journal is TV!

[Sluggo_Monster 0]

snowmman,


I know who’s on the team.

The production company (Edge West) knows who’s on the team.

Larry Carr knows who’s on the team.

georger knows who’s on the team.

All have been asked not to disclose who’s on the team. The ones who know are the kind of people who can and will honor a commitment (even if they don’t understand why).

I will tell you this… they are no microprocessor architects with a grudge against the FBI on the team.


Sluggo_Monster

Web Page
Blog
NORJAK Forum

[377 22]

Quote

I know Tom Kaye.
His girlfriend is on the FBI vid, but she seems totally unqualified for anything. I won't say bimbo, but bimbo.

Bimbo? On what basis?

Is she posing as a trained scientist?

Is any female companion of Tom "Kaye" or Larry Carr automatically a Bimbo?

There are no Bimbo jumpers. Not one. Those who might look like Bimbos got those implants purely for safety reasons, frontal protection in case of a bad landing.

377

2018 marks half a century as a skydiver. Trained by the late Perry Stevens D-51 in 1968.

[snowmman 3]

Quote

Quote

I know Tom Kaye.
His girlfriend is on the FBI vid, but she seems totally unqualified for anything. I won't say bimbo, but bimbo.

Bimbo? On what basis?

Is she posing as a trained scientist?

Yes. Watch the fbi video closely, she stumbles in trying to act like she's more than she is.

She's an illustrator, doing some web searches.

If you think I'm wrong, get her on here, and I'll interrogate.

Any real scientist could hold up.

[airtwardo 7]

Quote

Quote

I know Tom Kaye.
His girlfriend is on the FBI vid, but she seems totally unqualified for anything. I won't say bimbo, but bimbo.

Bimbo? On what basis?

Is she posing as a trained scientist?

Is any female companion of Tom "Kaye" or Larry Carr automatically a Bimbo?

There are no Bimbo jumpers. Not one. Those who might look like Bimbos got those implants purely for safety reasons, frontal protection in case of a bad landing.

377

Aerodynamic stability

~ If you choke a Smurf, what color does it turn? ~

[snowmman 3]

Sluggo, if you have some goal in my mind, you're just as pitiful as Larry Carr in trying to achieve it.

Surely, if you're just trying to be an asshole, you can do better?

[snowmman 3]

"the ones who know are the kind of people who can"

Ah, the "kind of people" argument.

It's good to hang with "your kind"
Don't want to touch the "other kind"...that shit might rub off on you.

Yup...the "kind of people"..the "good folk"

[Sluggo_Monster 0]

In my term of employment at Stanford University, Univ. of Ala, ORNL, PNNL, INEEL, and now LANL, I have worked with a lot of scientist in my life (career).

When I try to determine whether a person is a “scientist” or not, I prefer to look at what they have done to advance the “body of science,” as opposed to looking at what academic hoops they jumped through while Mommy and Daddy were financing their education.

The best way to determine one’s contribution to science is their “Curriculum Vitae” (CV), literally their "course of life."

Attached is Tom Kaye’s CV.

As far as I am concerned, he is as much (or more) of a scientist, than some jerk with a PhD. working for a drug company, a weapons lab, or on grants from the tobacco companies.

Just my opinion… yours may vary.

Web Page
Blog
NORJAK Forum

[Sluggo_Monster 0]

Your words (posts) define you.

I need not do it.

Web Page
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NORJAK Forum

[snowmman 3]

Quote

Your words (posts) define you.

I need not do it.

Well yes of course.
I love my words.
Why would I need you to define me?

Sluggo, I'm sure you're a great guy.
But there's no point in obsessing about trying to point out that you're not me, and I'm not you.

I'm me. I'm happy with it. (contrary to what Georger wants to think)

[377 22]

There is serious scientific inquiry with repeatable experiment design, controls, double blinds to rule out subjectivity etc.

And then there is show business: Hollywood, hangin with the "beautiful people"...

Sluggo definitely knows the difference, so cut him a little slack.

Who knows, the National Geo show might bring in someone with relevant evidence.

A guy I know, a bottom trawler fisherman, dragged up a very unique aluminum girder off the Big Sur CA coast
years ago. He actually knew what he had found, wreckage of the USN MACON dirigible that crashed at sea. He made a few calls trying to get the Navy interested and got NOWHERE, brushed off by ignorant bureaucrats.

He gave the girder to a restaurant in Moss Landing where YEARS later, someone spotted it who knew exactly how significant it was. He tracked down the fisherman who was now in the diesel business. Fortunately, when he got out of fishing he saved his trawl logs, which were meticulous so as to pinpoint snags and avoid them in the future. The Navy sent out a research unmanned sub (ROV) to his coordinates and got spectacular photos of the sunken dirigible with almost no searching required.

http://images.google.com/images?q=macon+wreck+photos&sourceid=navclient-ff&rlz=1B3GGGL_enUS305US306&um=1&ie=UTF-8&ei=DB1aSt-zDoXwsQPCiuGDCw&sa=X&oi=image_result_group&ct=title&resnum=1

Someone may have found something of DBC interest in the woods and either didn't know what it was or couldn't get anyone interested. The show can stir things up.

I look forward to seeing it.

377

2018 marks half a century as a skydiver. Trained by the late Perry Stevens D-51 in 1968.

[snowmman 3]

Okay 377, I'll stand down.
Worst case, I'm just wrong, and owe apologies.

[Orange1 0]

Quote

All,


The TV Listings showing the up-coming National Geographic is out this morning.

The Skyjacker That Got Away
First Prime Time Airing Sun Jul 26th at 10:00 PM EDT
Repeat Airing Sun Jul 26th at 11:00 PM EDT
Repeat Airing Sun Aug 2nd at 1:00 PM EDT

For those of us not in the US, could someone please follow up here if there is anything new in the show? Thanks

Skydiving: wasting fossil fuels just for fun.

[airtwardo 7]

Quote

When I try to determine whether a person is a “scientist” or not, I prefer to look at what they have done to advance the “body of science,” as opposed to looking at what academic hoops they jumped through...

In other words what they have done on their own without 'supervision' so to speak....makes sense to me.

Some can~ 'Talk the Talk, & some can, Walk the Walk...unfortunately the distinction isn't always immediately so clear apart from academia.

~ If you choke a Smurf, what color does it turn? ~

[snowmman 3]

I was involved in the Nat Geo production.
I can give a preview.
It opens with Kid Rock Bawitdaba
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=P6nvrYopHV8

Everyone dances, now!

Kid knows Cooper.