DB Cooper

[snowmman 3]

It seems no one wants to have a conversation about this hero thing.
I understand it's sensitive and sure to inflame.
Hero is not a word I would throw around lightly. We all have our own personal heroes, and maybe that's part of it.

In reading Waugh's stuff, his book, his interactions with the people under him, his successes, his failures, his rescues, his documenting of missions...yes there are heroics. But he's just as human as anyone.

Heroes I think are what we want to think people can be. Everyone has tragic flaws. We all overlook some selectively.

I would really like someone to talk about why they consider Waugh a hero.

I know about his injuries. I know about the battle he got the Silver Star for. I know about some of his SF missions.

But [it reads like] there's a lot of "gunslinger" ...kind of "out for his own adrenaline rush" aspect to him. I can see how skydivers and SF types might admire that. But that's just an operational thing. You admire the guy who can get it done. Somewhat like admiring a good carpenter, just in a different more lethal business.

I think when one says "hero"...it's like saying you'd like your kid to be a bit like that.

Educate me.

For instance, are there accounts of Billy's love of America, and what he thinks the America he envisions is? We all have our view of America. What's Billy's?

(edit) For the squeamish: Remember that Billy wrote a book about himself. He wants people to buy the book and read it. If the assumption is that no discussion of Billy is "allowed" after that, well that's not how the whole author->book->reader process works, right? So I'm not being a jerk.

[quade 4]

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Quade perfect Gentlesman answer. The true answer is Ididn't even notice. Jerry

If you ever jumped at Perris you'd have noticed, believe me. Perris in the Spring... agree Quade?

They can be impressive.

quade -
The World's Most Boring Skydiver

[snowmman 3]

I was thinking I sounded too negative with my phrase "macho posturing". Au contraire.

When someone's facing a possible death scenario, you definitely want the machine known as your body, to be firing on all 12 cylinders..i.e. everything on 150%.

The body (mind and body) doesn't work fully rationally.

So whatever it takes to get that 150%, is by definition, correct.

I've seen some SF texts with this paraphrase. Makes sense.

"Yea, though I walk through the valley of the shadow of death I shall fear no evil: for I am the meanest bastard in the valley."

Whatever attitude works, is by definition, correct, unless other attitudes can be shown to be equally successful in the goal.

Airtwardo touched on this when he was talking about skydiver attitudes and Jo, I think.

[377 22]

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It seems no one wants to have a conversation about this hero thing.

I'll take a swing at it.

First, hero definitions are very subjective. Mine is no better than anyone elses. It's a very personal thing.

To me, a hero demonstrates courage and altruism simultaneously. Just courage isnt enough for me. The toughest military fighter is not a hero to me, but the soldier who throws his body on a live grenade to save others is.

The jumper who can buzz a downhill skiers in a wingsuit is not a hero to me. The AFF instructor who goes in trying to save a helpless panicked student is.

PJs, USAF Pararescue Jumpers, are as tough as any soldiers. I have a friend who was a Ranger then later a PJ and he said the PJ training was tougher.

PJs have demonstrated herosim is Nam and in many peacetime rescues too. Read about them here.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/United_States_Air_Force_Pararescue

To me, Billy's very impressive HALO RT exploits don't make him a hero, but that's not really his fault. He was given a really tough mission that required all kinds of bravery and he did it. Had he been a PJ, many of his rescue missions would have put him in a good position to be a hero and I bet he would have performed admirably. In one case the mission is to gather intelligence, in the other it is to rescue someone. You can be a hero in the course of either mission, but the rescue mission affords more opportunity.

Anyone else want to take a shot?

377

2018 marks half a century as a skydiver. Trained by the late Perry Stevens D-51 in 1968.

[snowmman 3]

thanks 377.
I'm honestly looking for perspective. Yours was a good one.

[JerryThomas 0]

Sorry Snowmman I was just answering a question.Quade I guess I must go to Paris and seeeeee for myself. sorry orange one I'm still a typical Male Jerry

[377 22]

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Sorry Snowmman I was just answering a question.Quade I guess I must go to Paris and seeeeee for myself. sorry orange one I'm still a typical Male Jerry

Perris DZ Jerry, in Southern CA. They even have a DC 9 jet that you can jump out of once the current FAA hassles are cleared up.

http://www.skydiveperris.com/light/experts/index.asp

There is a link to a good TV news story on the DC 9 jet jumps. The vdeo shows exits from inside and outside the plane.

377

2018 marks half a century as a skydiver. Trained by the late Perry Stevens D-51 in 1968.

[JerryThomas 0]

Billy was just doing his job I'm sure he will tell you that.A hereo is a person that goes beyond the expected. Like our mothers. Jerry

[JerryThomas 0]

Sorry I should have realized that. And here I was looking foward too a trip to france. Good thing though, It would have been hard to explain to Shelly as to why I wanted to go to France.Now it will be easier to convince her we need a Vacation in Perris Ca. If she reads this I probably won't even make to the front door. Jerry ( the chances this idiot takes call me stupid) HaHaHa

[snowmman 3]

I just realized I've made a massive error.

There is no way Waugh could be Cooper.

I forgot Galen Cook has evidence that confirms William Pratt Gossett is Cooper.

Close call!

Sorry.

[377 22]

I correspond with Galen Cook from time to time and find that he has an open mind. He thinks Gosset is the best Cooper suspect to date, but he has never claimed to me that he had conclusive proof.

Gosset was a pretty good match to the FBI DBC sketch, until I saw Billy Waugh's photo.

Gosset said he was Cooper. He told that story to a number of people.

Waugh says he is not Cooper.

Either could have done it. Waugh has far better night HALO jump credentials and is a better sketch match, but we don't have a shred of evidence that he did NORJACK.

Would the real Cooper confess to ANYONE while alive? I doubt it, but you never know.

Wonder if Gosset and Waugh ever met each other or knew of each other?

377

2018 marks half a century as a skydiver. Trained by the late Perry Stevens D-51 in 1968.

[snowmman 3]

377 said: "Either could have done it."

Why do you say that? I guess anyone could have done it since the whuffo theory is plausible.

If so, there's never a reason to say "either could have done it"

The entire world is plausible Cooper, right? (as long as they match physical description)

What do you use to exclude Coopers, other than physical description?

(I've never seen much detail that's traceable on Gossett's military history. So if you use military history, point to the source)

(edit) I am Cooper. Proof: see avatar to the left.

[BruceSmith 3]

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Billy was just doing his job I'm sure he will tell you that.A hereo is a person that goes beyond the expected. Like our mothers. Jerry

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I like your definition of a hero, Jerry. But I'd like to add that a hero does something that is important - they make a real difference in someone's life.

It's easier to see a hero in wartime, I suppose, because lives are being saved by others. But simple heroes from everyday life count, too. For me, some teachers stand out because they never gave up on me, respected me, and honored me as I was.

Along these lines, I was just writing to Jerry in a pm that the discussion of the past few days has made me think about some of the vets I worked with in a VA psych unit. To date, they are some of the most honest men I have ever encountered. Telling me how much they liked war had a great impact in my life, and it was certainly revealing of theirs.

Thinking back to those days, and learning more here of the tremendous focus and tenacity of these SOG warriors, it all has opened up my eyes to the importance of the war experience for so many men.

I used to dismiss it as a craziness; now I see it is vital, perhaps even crucial somehow. That importance, to me now, conveys a sacredness I never saw before.

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[JerryThomas 0]

Realy. That is even wrong. However good luck on proving it. Jerry

[snowmman 3]

Here's the thing we all know.

If we all were warriors just shooting it out with each other, then we'd be back a couple hundred years in human civilization. Could be fun, as long as you have better technology than the other guy. It sucks being the guy who's shorthanded!

The place in modern day society for warriors, is when you don't need a lot of them.

If you need a lot of them, then something is fundamentally screwed up in the way the world interacts..It's not sustainable for us all to arm up and take aim.

So if you have this smaller set of warriors, then they need support. Everyone feels strong with a gun in their hands, but nowadays, if that's all you got, you're a dead man pretty quick.

Any modern day warrior, I'm sure, acknowledges the need for, and appreciation of the heroes that provide all sorts of direct and indirect support.

Right? That's just reality.

(edit) my brother designs missile systems. How weird is that?

[JerryThomas 0]

Bruce what does a mother do. All that and more. Jerry

[377 22]

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377 said: "Either could have done it."

Why do you say that?

Both had military jump and survival training, that's why.

Waugh was far more qualified, but Gosset wasn't exactly a Whuffo.

377

2018 marks half a century as a skydiver. Trained by the late Perry Stevens D-51 in 1968.

[snowmman 3]

Two shows

Inside the Vietnam War
airing Sep 10 5P

good historical early '60s video here
http://channel.nationalgeographic.com/episode/inside-the-vietnam-war-3891#tab-Videos/05075_00

I hadn't seen video of Ho Chi Minh before.
some B52 footage, Westmoreland footage
Gives a feel for how stuff was presented back then.
I also didn't realize there was a military coup in South Vietnam where they assassinated the president, and the US supported it?
Amazing how many history details there are.


Another show: Inside the Green Berets
is in Afghanistan now.
http://channel.nationalgeographic.com/episode/inside-the-green-berets-3162#tab-Videos/05644_00

It's kind of shocking to see the two videos back to back, since it's so eerie, the same kind of "trying to push some kind of message", when it's obvious in the vid that the reality is totally different than the bullshit message.

[snowmman 3]

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377 said: "Either could have done it."

Why do you say that?

Both had military jump and survival training, that's why.

Waugh was far more qualified, but Gosset wasn't exactly a Whuffo.

377

I guess we could say that if the suspect is alive, then they probably had military and survival (e&e?) training.

If the suspect is dead, we could say they probably didn't.

So it depends a lot on whether you believe Cooper lived or died. (we've gone thru this ad nauseum)

[BruceSmith 3]

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Bruce what does a mother do. All that and more. Jerry

Yes, indeed.

My prior posst was a little muddled.

[snowmman 3]

This is a good post. cribbed from forum posts from www.professionalsoldiers.com
There is good detail on the HALO jumps, repeating what I said. All were fiascos except for the 4th: Storter's

Note the authors were there. This is first person stuff.

It's good reiterating that reality is much different than the myths.

I won't publish the authors or urls for the source, but I can

grumblings
Re: Billy Waugh
There are some who don't think too much of Billy Waugh...especially after he "stole" the good, experienced team of Yards from RT Plane to make up his first HALO RT when the 1-0 (Troy Gilley) and 1-1 ("Dirty Ben") were on R&R.

also some history
To add to the discussion--

In early '70, David Babysan Davidson and three others did a static line jump into Cambodia. A few months later RJ Graham and three more did the same thing but in a different area. These were the first parachute insertions of US led SOG teams into any operational AO.

These jumps were also--in the opinions of the CCS Recon Co personnel--the reason Billy Waugh came to CCS as SGM of Recon Co for a few months before going to CCN. Billy Waugh was at CCS from around April to July '70--give or take a few weeks on either end of those dates--and the thoughts were that he wanted to take some "lessons learned" to CCN...along with RT Plane's four best Montagnards. RT Plane's 1-0 and 1-1 were on leave and returned to find their best men--something that did not sit well with RT Plane's leaders --and a newly assigned 1-2 (Appleton) sent to Okinawa for HALO training.

Appleton did not go on any ops with RT Plane and committed suicide on Okie when he found out his wife back at Fort Bragg was cheating on him.

Two of the four Yards (Tiak and Noe) made it through the training and went on HALO jumps at CCN with RT Florida. Noe was KIA in the spring '75 invasion and Tiak lives in NC.

There was little publicity for the CCS parachute jumps...possibly because no HALO jumps were conducted by CCS teams.

The consensus of opinion of those there was that the static-line jumps worked better than HALO because the teams landed together. The down-side to the static-line jumps was that because US aircraft rarely flew low over the AOs at night, for some time prior to any jumps they had to run deception flights over those general AOs to get the enemy used to the noise of low-flying aircraft.

CCS used UH-1s at around 1000 AGL for their jumps, and that A/C makes a racket at that low altitude.

HALO didn't have the "noisy aircraft" problem, but only one team, Jim Storter's from CCC, landed together successfully. All of the other HALO insertions were a fiasco and, in the opinions of those manning the teams, they caused more problems than they solved. But CCN and SOG could then say to the higher-ups that they did have people "on the ground"--never mind that in virtually all cases their situation called for an immediate extraction due to injuries or they were ineffective due to being in contact.

Realistically, the CCS AO was much more suitable to static-line ops due to its generally flat to rolling terrain versus the high mountainous terrain up north. It was thought that night static-line jumps would be too dangerous in the mountains since they would be jumping in areas that were mostly below the mountain peaks in the AO.

Only a few parachute jumps of either type were across the "fence" since the Cambodia AO was off limits to SOG ground teams starting July'70 and Laos was off limits starting March '71. This meant that in a little over a year after the CCS static-line jumps by Babysan and Graham, both Cambodia and Laos were no longer open to ground ops.

also re: old soldiers

I don't know, they kept me in a wall locker the first year!!!

Actually, from Training Group I went straight to CCS were I was in Recon Co and 1st Expoloitation Co, then Recon at CCC, so my experience was a bit different. All the "old timers", One-zeros and such, were pretty young, some younger than me, as I joined the army at a later age. Many of them had only 3-6 months longer in country than me. Now, we did have some real old soldiers like SGM Billy Waugh, MSG "Pop" Taylor, 1st SGT Joe Brock, SFC Floyd Rettman, SGM Matamoros and a few others. Except for Billy and "Pop", and my apologies to anyone I forgot, we learned from our fellow youngsters.

The rest of the old soldiers were either in the staff or security platoon. At that time I viewed them with disdain. Hindsight and the advantage of many years under my belt has taught me tolerance. I got there in May of '69 and some will say the war was "winding down". Many of the old soldiers "hiding" in security platoon, etc. were on their 3rd, 4th and more tours and I think deserved to spend some time in an easy job.

Any way that's my 1st year on a "team" experience; 1-1 and 1-2 in recon Co and Sgd Ldr/Plt Sgt in 1st Exploitation Co. Running Recon and Hatchet Forces as an SF newbie doesn't truly prepare one to be an A-Team member. I'll probably get some grief from some of my old SOG buddies for that comment! After a year and a half in country I went to the 46th CO in Thailand and finally got to my first real A-Team as the Intel Sgt on A-14 of B-4?. Uh-oh, can't remember the B team number. Yes, we had A, B, and C Teams then. We converted to companies and battalions in April '71.

I will add that I don't recall a whole lot of mentoring once I get to A-14. I think the unspoken philosophy was that you signed up, you showed up, got your stripes fast, now perform. Besides, you just spent a year and a half in combat. I think that may have been a collective attitude amongst the older guys to us younger guys. Although the term didn't exist then, we were SF Babies. We were the first large group of SF volunteers that entered with reduced entrance requirements of age and time in service since the first call up for SF.

Also re: NVN possible HALO insertion: not
Another thing that SoG didn't do much of was the "ad hoc" mission. Something like this was planned and rehearsed. You can see from the History of Halo that a lot of prep time went into these jumps. Mostly because we were pioneering things without the benefit of SOPs or combat experience in these operations.

I do know that Col Larry Trapp and I had several conversations about American HALO inserts in NVN. (Due to some claims by a deranged Marine). He flat told me that no Americans were inserted by HALO in NVN period. He was Dep. Chief of Airborne Ops for SOG for 70-71. He was at SOG Hq for about 4 years and was one of the keepers of the Keys for many years. So I tend to believe him. I don't know if he was still there at the time, but his assignment after SOG was Pentagon Spec Ops so he was still in the loop.

re: Triple canopy. Yes under it was pretty sparse for vegettation at the ground level, dark as hell too. Point was we were to jump at night in the tree tops from static linee. You can imagine the spread and the assembly problems. At night under triple canopy you can't even see your hand let alone someone 50 ft away. I remember one jump on an ftx, 3 men per door. Out of 2 C130 loads, only about 10 of us hit the LZ. Spent hours trying to find the rest of the guys that were stuck in the pine trees. You can try and imagine doing this with yards after 5 days of airborne training...!
__________________

[skyjack71 0]

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The entire world is plausible Cooper, right? (as long as they match physical description)

What do you use to exclude Coopers, other than physical description?

Guys,
I am trying my best to bite the bullet and keep quiet, but I want everyone in this forum to think back to when I posted the pic from Page 49 of a SOLDIER of FORTUNE Magazine dated Dec. 1994.

This magazine was the ONLY item in a safety deposit box owned by Duane L. Weber (one, I as his wife did not know he had). I found the receipt in his belonging and went to the bank with the will. Since the box did not have my name on it the bank did not allow me to view the box, but brought this magazine out and told me" this is all that was in it". He had to have placed this magazine in the box in Dec. 1994 or by Feb of 1995 just before he became too ill to drive on his own.

A yr later when I found out who Dan Cooper was - the magazine didn't seem important and I had placed it with ALL of the tax returns he had kept from 1968. It was always something I pushed into the back of my mind. Months ago a post in the thread caused me to pulled it out and read it from cover to cover again trying to figure out why this magazine was in that box. I don't really remember the re-actions of the thread, but it is out in front of me again, because of the recent posts.

Yrs ago I was contacted by a man who told me that John Collins was removed from Jefferson Federal Prison and place in to a "program". I didn't believe the man. but the FBI never provided me with the Jefferson records and all I got was what this forum guided me to obtain which is detailed in the thread. I tried to obtain the detail work logs and reports which I could never get because after a period of time those no longer exist (30 yrs). Prior to the expiration of that 30 yr period, I had made several exchanges with the prison - and got 3 different stories regarding John C. Collins and others.

The story in the magazine centers around BuDop March 1967 (supposedly Duane was in prison). The picture of the BuDop encampment taken from the air resembles a painting Tony Wong had done of a "place" he and Duane obviously spent some time at. (this conclusion was reached by conversation I over heard between the two of them).

Names mentioned in this article are:
Lieutenant John "Jack" Throckmorton, son of Colonel Throckmorton NOT General Throckmorton.
Chief Warrant Officer Jerry Johnson,
"China Boys"
Staff Sargeant Roger Haliberg,
Sergeant First Class J.W. Edgell
Captain Stewart (they never give a 1st name).
Master Sergeant Charles Hosking,
HALO jumps with the dummy device (barrel),
The Green Berets knew the SADM (small atomic demolitions munition),
Captain Stewarts first name is never given.

The reason I am reminding you of this is because this thread has gone back to Vietnam. I don't know what the damn magazine means, but you JUST do not put a magazine in a Safe Deposit box.
Considering the subject matter and the atttached photos and the mention of HALO's done at night...WHAT was Duane's connection to this?

I find it difficult to even think of Duane in terms of actually being in Vietnam - but maybe having been associated with someone mentioned or pictured. The group picture states that only 2 Americans survived the ambush and 1 of those is named.

So what I am getting at - did Duane know someone mentioned in that article or the writer John Mullins? He was TOO connected to that Magazine. It was 1994 when I saw that airline ticket. The house was broke into after I sold the VAN. What was with that Wallet the new owner found? Why did the man tell 2 different stories about where he found the wallet. Did Duane leave a note with the wallet telling me where something was hidden in the house. When the house was broke into NOTHING was taken that I was aware of, but the handles to the fire irons where all loose (I noted this because I went to set them up straight). Duane always said Hide it in Plain Site. Did he leave a note directing me to a treasure and someone else thought it was money - could it have been the airline ticket or one of the $20's?

I will always have these question in my mind - till the day I die. Why did he tell me anything? Why did he hide his past?
If I told you about another thing I found I would be called a liar or delusional. I was too stupid to see what was right in front of me and something I had in my possession - I didn't know the value of it because I didn't know who Dan Cooper was. Stupid Naive Dumb me. Always taking things and people at face value and never asking too many questions.

All that is left now is unanswered questions and I am afraid to trust anyone with everything - I am tired of being called delusional - I am tired of trying to tell people what I held in my own hands and saw with my own eyes. Tired of trying to tell people what he told me and showed me. I am tired of secrets and tired of not being heard (except for you guys).

Since 1996 I have told the truth and nothing but the truth regarding what I know. I have NOT lied nor am I delusional. In 2001 when the FBI found I
was going Public - everything that has been done has been done to SILENCE me and to make me go away. I wouldn't give up - so now the FBI's and "other's who be " decided they have done enough to convince anyone interested that I am just one of the "wannabe's" or as others in the forum have said - delusional.

I believe someone out there knows who Cooper was. In other circumstances our
own government ordered pictures and files destroyed - wiped-out because their content would jeopardize national security. I ask (what national security - a security they have build on lies and deception)? If ever was the time to come straight out with all of the secrets now is the time.

It will take someone like Snowmman to expose them. We know our government has had their hands dirty before - they just don't want the world to know how many times and to what extent. Our economy is in the gutter, our people
living on the streets while one illegal uses up 2 millon dollars in medical expense because they can't deport him.

Americans born in this country who go and beg for work everyday - so they might have something to eat before they go to bed (in abandon trailers, tents, under the pavilion). I have taken sheets to the homeless and mosquito spray - this is horrible - this is not the America I ever thought I would live to see. The jobs are given to illegals whose child was born in America (they get an address because they got a kid) - so they get to stay and these other men and women who depended on these jobs are starving in our streets and when they are offered a meal they must sit through 1 hr of preaching while the food get cold.

Can anyone of you imagine what it must be like to not be able to take a bath and not have clean clothes - in AMERICA? Can you imagine going to the bins behind the fast food places looking for food? I have met intelligent people in these circumstance - some humiliated and some so very thin. Some have not turned to acohol or drugs (yet). they are still hoping and trying. With no address you can't get assistance - without a job or money you can't get an address. No address = no assistance or foodstamps.
they want to just die, but they don't turn to alcohol or drugs - they just keep on and so help me I don't know how they can face another night or day.

If I am delusional then the rest of the world is delusional if they can turn their backs on what is happening in this country.

Off topic, but it needed to be said. Go out and feed a homeless person today - and I don't mean by giving a CHARITY money these people never see. Go get your own hands dirty and put yourself in their place just one time...take a sheet and try to go to sleep on the concrete or on a bench (if you are lucky) - or even worse a nasty dark mildewed abandon trail with a rotten floor infested with bugs.

Copyright 2006, 2007, 2008, 2009, 2010, 2011, 2012 2013, 2014, 2015 by Jo Weber

[snowmman 3]

Here's an 8-page article that explains what happened at Bu Dop.

I think the writer tries to add too much drama to the story. There are some true things.

But you can read Mullins story if you care.

http://www.historynet.com/a-bad-day-at-bu-dop.htm

It was written by retired Army Major John Mullins, who served three tours in Vietnam with Special Forces. In 1966-67 he was the executive officer of an A-team in Vinh Thanh, and in 1968-69 he served with a Special Operations Group. The article was originally published in the April 2001 issue of Vietnam Magazine.

[snowmman 3]

I've read a lot of accounts where US guys treated the Montagnards and South Vietnamese that accompanied them on missions as full peers, with the full respect they deserved.

But then there are also accounts, where there were issues with bring Montagnards or Vietnamese into the same emergency rooms as US soldiers, or stuff like that.

Or even the simple act of socializing.
Like this account.

I don't know what it was really like. I suppose it varied depending on the teams. You can see in a previous account that an RT member kept track of some of the Montagards on his team, knowing about one living in NC, say.


http://aircommandoman.tripod.com/id17.html

"When a PRAIRIE FIRE EMERGENCY was declared by the ground team, it meant they needed help NOW, they were in contact with a numerically superior force, and in imminent danger of being overrun. Most exfiltrations were done under fire. There were no easy ones. After a successful exfil, the RTs were usually brought back to the Hook, for initial debrief. After that, a party ensued. In the HEAVY HOOK bar, the RT members (US only) could quaff a few, and swap stories with the air crews. (The indigenous team members were required by treaty, to remain in the back room. We sent food and drink so they could have their own small celebration of life in a more subdued and dignified manner.) The next a.m., the "Blackbird" C130 from 1st Flight Detachment would arrive and take the RT back to their home base where they were further debriefed. Then in a few days, the whole process would start again."

[snowmman 3]

Nice account from a pilot of flying a Stinger gunship into Laos ("over the fence") to support SOG ground.

http://aircommandoman.tripod.com/id27.html

"Rest of the mission was a milk run killed a few trucks, helped out some guys on the ground who said "STINKER YOU SHOOT BERRY BERRY WELL TANK YOU BERRY BERRY MUCH", got hosed by some 27 & 37 MM AAA. All in all, a normal night. It was still too quiet on the ride back to NKP after the Nav called RTB (return to base) as no one was going to forget this mission."

some pics of the guns on the plane attached.

He talks about the problems with takeoff on this mission:

"It was time to break the by-the-book routine as we approached #1 for takeoff, and he finished the book BEFORE TAKE-OFF BRIEFING, I added "round here we add 5 knots to rotate speed for the Flight Engineer, and I add another 5 knots for my Mother so I can see her again. So when you have rotate speed+10 knots slowly/smoothly rotate the Duck off the ground and let her gain some speed/altitude and call for the gear. Got it? I got it Co!!

Cleared for takeoff, Copilots airplane, pilots throttles, Engineer backs me up and off we go down NKPs runway with everything in the green. Co's rudder inputs are good, smoothly past Vr (reject speed we are now a go for sure) smoothly approaching rotate speed when suddenly at rotate minus 5 knots the copilot yanks the yoke back into his stomach, and the Duck leaps off the ground hanging on the props in ground effect. I scream in the mike "Pilots airplane!!!" I cant put her back down, no runway left. Im not climbing, and the airspeed hasn't increased 1 knot! I can see the 12 fence at the end of the field, and rows of trees 500 beyond!!

I yell for the gear-up that will get us a few knots,then to the Engineer to close the cowl-flaps. Yes stand a chance of overheating the recips, but the drag reduction might get us another knot or two. Slowly, ever so slowly, the airspeed begins to creep up. I'm squeezing the yoke to see if I can feel the difference from ground effect and a positive climb. Ever so slowly I feel the pressures change on the yoke, we are finally flying!

Cleared the fence, had to zoom it to get over the trees, once passed, let the nose back down to get back the speed I'd lost in the zoom, and headed for the river which I knew was lower than the airfield. Engineers shouts the cylinder temps were going up but we were safely flying again, so had the Co open the cowl-flaps. Left turn out of traffic, normal climb speed AFTER TAKEOFF/CLIMB CHECKLIST."

and then after the mission, it becomes obvious why:

"On the bus going back to maintenance debrief, I was trying to figure out how this 1LT was going to tear the Captain a new butt, when out of the dark in the back of the bus he says "sorry guys, I'm buying the beer."

I still wanted to know why, and after a beer or two I was about to ask when he blurted out "I choked. In training I think they only let me takeoff once or twice, and none of those birds were half as heavy as we were tonight. I was so scared and trying so hard that I subtracted rather than add the speed."