DB Cooper

[Orange1 0]

Hi all,

I've been on Mud Island for the past week and interestingly enough caught some of a program on Cooper from an "Unsolved Crimes - USA" series on Sky. I don't think this has been discussed here? I have no idea if the program was old or new and I missed the first bit, but though I kept watching I didn't expect to hear anything new. I did, though. Following interviews with an FBI agent whose name I missed saying the plane had flown east of the flight path (ie over the Washougal); Jerry (showing how dense the undergrowth is and I can see why you would take so long to search there!!); Richard Tosaw; Russell Calame...
the interesting bit came. The presenter, Sam Kiley spoke to a former SOG commando from Vietnam who wouldn't be identified and only consented to a phone interview. The 727 tests weren't mentioned, BUT Mr Anonymous said that Cooper's jump bore the hallmarks of a SOG operation and then he said: that just months before the Cooper hijack, SOG launched its first ever night jumps behind enemy lines -- and that these were out of jets. That was it - no names put forward, but speculation that Cooper was one of those guys. Just something else to throw into the pot.

Skydiving: wasting fossil fuels just for fun.

[377 22]

Quote

I've been on Mud Island for the past week

MUD Island? Tena Bar sounds a lot more more enticing Orange.

I have heard that night jet jump special ops stuff before and it is in a novel, but I have yet to see an authoritative source. It sure sounds like something that would be done to insert stuff or people into sensitive areas. Passenger jets often get to fly over places that military planes cannot, like Cuba etc. A jumpable special ops 727 could pose as a charter airliner or even substitute for a cancelled scheduled flight. A brief slowdown for a HALO jump probably wouldnt be noticed.

Sad weekend in CA. Fatal canopy wrap at the American Boogie at Yolo/Davis CA. One dead one seriously injured. See incidents forum for details.

377

2018 marks half a century as a skydiver. Trained by the late Perry Stevens D-51 in 1968.

[Orange1 0]

Yeah, saw the incidents forum BSBD.

Yeah, it's hard when the witness remains anonymous to know how far you can trust them but it was an interesting thing to hear - it makes sense anyway but the timing he gave was interesting. Gonna see if any way of corroborating that.

by the way Sam Kiley made an interesting point - trivial perhaps but maybe not: that if Cooper survived, he sure kept the secret well, and if that was the case then it makes sense to look for him in a profession that is good at keeping secrets... (eg SOG)
although as I type that I am also reminded how few secrets there are these days

PS Actually they are having a decent summer and not much mud around, a few hours of drizzle the whole week I was there which is probably a record low

Skydiving: wasting fossil fuels just for fun.

[377 22]

I'd like to see the show you watched Orange. I wonder if it is posted anywhere as a video file?

I also want to see Safe's logic equations further explained.

I attended WFFC for many years and I can only recall one or two events which had no jumper fatalities. Still, I figured that I could, by being very conservative, avoid what happened to those poor souls who died.

The collision and wrap at the American Boogie last weekend is my worst nightmare: totally wrapped up in canopy and lines, screaming down and unable to cut away. You just don't have the time to fix it. BSBD

377

2018 marks half a century as a skydiver. Trained by the late Perry Stevens D-51 in 1968.

[mx757 4]

I attended WFFC many years too..I think they only had 7 or 8 people die over the years... some years two at same event.... one guy drowned in pool at night..

I recall several years at WFFC with no deaths...
I've been to every WFFC and freak brothers too before it became WFFC..2 girls died at Freak brothers in 1984 they both bounced like minutes apart..

[JerryThomas 0]

Travel chanel has about 4 documentaries they feature. The entertainment channel has one they have featured the name of is IT HAPPENED HERE. PBS has most of them so does ABC,CBS and NBC. I've been involved with 6 of them that has aired around the world and there is one that has aired in the united kingdom that a production company from Ireland did.I do believe that you can get copies of all of these on line.Jerry

[Orange1 0]

There are video links here, i haven't checked them but I presume they are of the show. Appears it first aired in 2007.

http://xhgc18.blogspot.com/2007/06/unsolved-crimes-usa-thief-who-escaped.html

Skydiving: wasting fossil fuels just for fun.

[Orange1 0]

loads of photos and some anecdotes. if anyone has the time to go through everything and finds anything about night jumps especially in 1971, let the rest of us know pleae
http://www.militaryphotos.net/forums/showthread.php?t=52378

Skydiving: wasting fossil fuels just for fun.

[Orange1 0]

THIS is great...
http://www.globalsecurity.org/military/ops/airborne-jumps.htm

A history of airborne jumps, including some formerly classified ones.

28 Nov 1970, Laos:
Command & Control North (CCN), Special Operations Group (SOG), High Altitude Low Opening team (HALO).
Formerly classified.
Jumped from 17,000 to 21,000 feet with oxygen, between 0001-0300 hours. Objective to close the Ho Chi Minh trail to NVA by calling in air strikes.
Individually extracted with V rings by helicopter.
STABO ( Stabilized Tactical Airborne Operation).
First men to receive combat stars on HALO wings


There are identical descriptions for 4 more jumps, all with different teams, in various locations in the area between May and Oct 1971... so I guess we now know of 5 HALO night jumps in Asia in the months leading up to the Cooper hijacking. Incidentally the next HALO night jump recorded comes in 1983, i'm not sure whether this list is meant to be exhaustive, or whether there were others inbetween that have not yet been declassified.

Edited to add: many, but not all, other entries have type of aircraft, these don't. No idea if hercs, 727s, what... though all the 5 jumps mentioned above had between 4 and 10 troopers. Would they use a huge plane for that? Altitude vs noise etc, anyone got any ideas???

2nd edit: certainly backs up what the SOG guy on that TV show said.

Skydiving: wasting fossil fuels just for fun.

[Orange1 0]

a line i'm mentioning , just because someone (was it happythoughts?) thought
Cooper might be Canadian:

Quote

Plaster also tells about the "crazy Canadians" who served in the U.S. Army with MACV-SOG

from http://import.book.store.bg/product/id-0451195086/sog-the-secret-wars-of-america-39-s-commandos-in-vietnam.html

book might be fun - quite differing opinions at the end of the review

Skydiving: wasting fossil fuels just for fun.

[Orange1 0]

(cough cough) couldn't not share this, even though the plan was scrapped. Also it was a low level insertion which i presume is static line?

Quote

One of the two missions my team turned down at CCN would have been the first low-level insert in Feb 70. (it was one of those the guy with the briefcase stapped to his arm deals)

from the post posted on 10-10-2004 13:07 on http://www.professionalsoldiers.com/forums/printthread.php?t=3514&pp=40

Skydiving: wasting fossil fuels just for fun.

[Orange1 0]

ok, more progress on the aircraft front:

Quote

They were put in a target DZ 60 miles southwest of Danang on 22 June 1971on a intensely dangerous night jump at 14,000' from a Blackbird

from http://www.macvsog.org/halo_extract.htm (complimentary to the Plaster book mentioned above btw)

The date and location ties up with one of the 5 jumps mentioned above although the altitude is a bit lower.

This on Blackbirds, also see link for more facts and pics... faster than a 727...

Quote

Developed for the USAF as reconnaissance aircraft more than 30 years ago, SR-71s are still the world's fastest and highest-flying production aircraft. The aircraft can fly more than 2200 mph (Mach 3+ or more than three times the speed of sound) and at altitudes of over 85,000 feet. As research platforms, the aircraft can cruise at Mach 3 for more than one hour

http://www.globalaircraft.org/planes/sr-71_blackbird.pl

Skydiving: wasting fossil fuels just for fun.

[377 22]

Quote

THIS is great...
http://www.globalsecurity.org/military/ops/airborne-jumps.htm

A history of airborne jumps, including some formerly classified ones.

28 Nov 1970, Laos:
Command & Control North (CCN), Special Operations Group (SOG), High Altitude Low Opening team (HALO).
Formerly classified.
Jumped from 17,000 to 21,000 feet with oxygen, between 0001-0300 hours. Objective to close the Ho Chi Minh trail to NVA by calling in air strikes.
Individually extracted with V rings by helicopter.
STABO ( Stabilized Tactical Airborne Operation).
First men to receive combat stars on HALO wings


There are identical descriptions for 4 more jumps, all with different teams, in various locations in the area between May and Oct 1971... so I guess we now know of 5 HALO night jumps in Asia in the months leading up to the Cooper hijacking. Incidentally the next HALO night jump recorded comes in 1983, i'm not sure whether this list is meant to be exhaustive, or whether there were others inbetween that have not yet been declassified.

Edited to add: many, but not all, other entries have type of aircraft, these don't. No idea if hercs, 727s, what... though all the 5 jumps mentioned above had between 4 and 10 troopers. Would they use a huge plane for that? Altitude vs noise etc, anyone got any ideas???

Very interesting finds Orange! You and Snow find so much that eludes my searches. I'd guess C 130 Herc on the aircraft. No reason to use a 727. Plenty of Hercs were in the area and capable of flying the mission... but that's just a guess.

377

2018 marks half a century as a skydiver. Trained by the late Perry Stevens D-51 in 1968.

[Orange1 0]

Quote

ok, more progress on the aircraft front:

Quote

They were put in a target DZ 60 miles southwest of Danang on 22 June 1971on a intensely dangerous night jump at 14,000' from a Blackbird

from http://www.macvsog.org/halo_extract.htm (complimentary to the Plaster book mentioned above btw)

The date and location ties up with one of the 5 jumps mentioned above although the altitude is a bit lower.

This on Blackbirds, also see link for more facts and pics... faster than a 727...

Quote

Developed for the USAF as reconnaissance aircraft more than 30 years ago, SR-71s are still the world's fastest and highest-flying production aircraft. The aircraft can fly more than 2200 mph (Mach 3+ or more than three times the speed of sound) and at altitudes of over 85,000 feet. As research platforms, the aircraft can cruise at Mach 3 for more than one hour

http://www.globalaircraft.org/planes/sr-71_blackbird.pl

Was there any other aircraft called a blackbird? the one i linked to is right era and place but it doesn't exactly sound like a jump plane??!! (although they do mention ejection procedures, but somewhat different exit to what we would understand a jump to be )

Quote

Performance at low speeds was anemic. Even passing the speed of sound required the aircraft to dive.

from http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/SR-71_Blackbird

Skydiving: wasting fossil fuels just for fun.

[377 22]

No way anyone jumped from an SR 71 other than an emergency ejection. I recently attended a talk by a retired SR 71 pilot. Amazing bird. He recounted taking off from Beale AFB in CA, climbing up over the Pacific and doing huge slow turns at MACH 3 making the sun rise and set repeatedly. Can you imagine making your own sunrises and sunsets but both in the West? The man now teaches high school physics in the Sacramento area and loves his new career.

Wonder what else might have been called a blackbird? Migh they have meant "black bird"? When I worked with classified miltary flight hardware we had so called "black aircraft", which were usually specially modified versions of stock military aircraft altered to carry special electronic sensor packages.

377

2018 marks half a century as a skydiver. Trained by the late Perry Stevens D-51 in 1968.

[Orange1 0]

And thedoing research you come across guys like this. Wow. (as an aside, another example of someone who served in Vietnam but was a veteran of previous wars, for those who think Vietnam vets would be "too young")

I really urge a read, here's an extract but there's lots more:

Quote

He was the second man in the entire Army to register 1000 certified jumps. The first was a Test jumper at Yuma, AZ., proving grounds.

In 1959 he went to Germany and helped form the first skydiving club in Europe. He was awarded German Fallshemspringer permit number two, having lost a coin toss for number one. He was one of a four-member team who held the record for the highest free fall jump in Germany, an altitude of 23,000 feet, jumping with out oxygen.

When the Army Parachute Team was first created as a real unit, he was an original member, his license number, D-23. He nicknamed the Army Parachute Team the “Golden Knights” after the football team of West Point, known as the Black Knights. The team has been referred to as the Golden Knights ever since.

He devised the mid air act of two men firing flare pistols while in free fall and a workable smoke grenade holder that fit on the boots. He and his parachute teammates invented the things they needed as they went along.

http://www.sflistteamhouse.com/scrapbook/Edge/obit.htm

Skydiving: wasting fossil fuels just for fun.

[snowmman 3]

first person detail on vietnam halo
http://www.skydivewithjohn.com/documents/HistoryofHALOOperations.pdf

good tech detail on gear (page 9)
not very hi tech. (modified t-10s?)

names etc. (page 17-18)
c-130e (page 15)
whole article is good.

helis were used in training, minimally:
"Taken to Long Thanh for two weeks of training, the augmented team began parachuting from helicopters and fixed-wing aircraft. Two dozen practice jumps later, they were able to exit a C-130E at
25,000 feet with 110 pounds of equipment and land within 50 meters of each other."

funny re money bag: "But Murphy’s Law still intervened: as Mark Gentry left the plane his rucksack ripped loose, causing him to spin away from the rest of the team."

reference to Sgt. Madison Strohlein: mia, didn't extract.
http://www.taskforceomegainc.org/S176.htm

This page mentions C-130

[Orange1 0]

Well done Snow! I found a link to the skydivewithjohn site but it was to a word doc and the link didn't work, sounds like what you found is the same thing! Thanks.

Edit: the link where i got the "blackbird" quote was also about Strohlein.

Skydiving: wasting fossil fuels just for fun.

[snowmman 3]

from the Strohlein page.

It's interesting to track where they trained. There were many training jumps. (4 night HALO).

As 377 has always said: people like to talk about what the cutting edge is. You could imagine a lot of support personnel with knowledge of the activities. So lots of people must have known about this stuff at the time.

"The men chosen for these teams were put through refresher training on Okinawa; they practiced for an additional month at Long Thanh, South Vietnam. This in-country training included 10 jumps from Huey helicopters and C-130s, 4 night HALO jumps and a final exercise in War Zone D, north east of Saigon."

(edit)
"Blackbird" was evidently the name given to the their C-130.
So not the sr71, and not a heli.

"At 0100 hours on this - their third - attempt, the team boarded the Blackbird, a C-130 specifically set up for this mission, for the 2 hour flight to their mission destination."

[Sluggo_Monster 0]

A DZ.com “Lurker” pointed out that my recent post Re: The Nat–Geo Special on NORJACK Citizen Sleuths had a typo in it that may have puzzled some. The TENTATIVE first air date of the program is Sunday July 26th at 10:00 pm EDT.

Web Page
Blog
NORJAK Forum

[Orange1 0]

Quote

"At 0100 hours on this - their third - attempt, the team boarded the Blackbird, a C-130 specifically set up for this mission, for the 2 hour flight to their mission destination."

Mystery solved, thanks Snow
Teamwork

Skydiving: wasting fossil fuels just for fun.

[377 22]

I am LOVING it! Jerry Springer has left the stadium and the dream team is back on the field.

377

2018 marks half a century as a skydiver. Trained by the late Perry Stevens D-51 in 1968.

[377 22]

Quote

first person detail on vietnam halo
http://www.skydivewithjohn.com/documents/HistoryofHALOOperations.pdf

good tech detail on gear (page 9)
not very hi tech. (modified t-10s?)

names etc. (page 17-18)
c-130e (page 15)
whole article is good.

helis were used in training, minimally:
"Taken to Long Thanh for two weeks of training, the augmented team began parachuting from helicopters and fixed-wing aircraft. Two dozen practice jumps later, they were able to exit a C-130E at
25,000 feet with 110 pounds of equipment and land within 50 meters of each other."

funny re money bag: "But Murphy’s Law still intervened: as Mark Gentry left the plane his rucksack ripped loose, causing him to spin away from the rest of the team."

reference to Sgt. Madison Strohlein: mia, didn't extract.
http://www.taskforceomegainc.org/S176.htm

This page mentions C-130

***************************************

VERY interesting article Snow.

I like the tech details. I remember the Czech KAP 3 auto openers. They were used in the US by few jumpers. No electronics at all, just aneroid barosensors, spings, cams etc.

I am quite puzzled by the description of the CIA supplied locator beacon and especially the tunable transistor radios used to locate it. I have in interest in special comm gear from Nam and this doesnt fit the description of anything I have heard of.

Bailout beacons were widely available and broadcast a signal on 243.0 MHZ.

http://oai.dtic.mil/oai/oai?verb=getRecord&metadataPrefix=html&identifier=AD0630190

Unfortunately the VC also monitored 243.0 to find out when bailouts occured and to help find the fliers on the ground if they kept the beacons on.

Perhaps a URT 21 type beacon was re-crystaled to operate on a less obvious UHF frequency.

It is the tunable transistor radios that puzzles me. Generally a tunable 60s-70s vintage transistor radio would be pretty drifty and unstable at UHF frequencies. Second, how could it "locate" the beacon?

I have a hand held military surplus radio direction finder from Viet Nam. It actually uses a couple of ordinary 9 volt transistor radio batteries, unusual in that most mil. gear uses exotic one of a kind batteries. It has a small UHF directional antenna and operates on 243.0 MHz. Perhaps these were also recrystaled and were the "transistor radios" referred to.

If Cooper was an ex special ops guy could he have used radio gear to rendevous with an accomplice on the ground? Just voice comms might not work because you might not be able to describe your location specifically enough to make a quick rendevous. If you had a beacon and a direction finder the task gets easier. Look at the distances achieved with a URT 21:

"Monitoring stations at a distance of 2 to 28 miles from the drop zones reported signals heard from time of parachute deployment until ground contact was made."

Nothing inidcates Cooper had any radio gear at all, but it is fun to speculate.

The rucksack ripping loose is very telling. These guys were highly experienced yet had this happen.

377

2018 marks half a century as a skydiver. Trained by the late Perry Stevens D-51 in 1968.

[377 22]

Lowering device, very useful for Cooper type jumps.
Jerry, did you ever use this kind of gear?

377


http://cgi.ebay.com/Military-Pilot-Lowering-Extraction-Rappelling-Device_W0QQcmdZViewItemQQ_trkparmsZ65Q3a12Q7c66Q3a2Q7c39Q3a1Q7c72Q3a1205Q7c240Q3a1318Q7c301Q3a1Q7c293Q3a1Q7c294Q3a50QQ_trksidZp3286Q2ec0Q2em14QQhashZitem335362bfdfQQitemZ220442312671QQptZLHQ5fDefaultDomainQ5f0QQsalenotsupported

2018 marks half a century as a skydiver. Trained by the late Perry Stevens D-51 in 1968.

[snowmman 3]

from a post at another forum, commenting on the SOG halo history. Seems to confirm the transmitter beacon carried by one member. plus a funny briefcase reference. :)

In addition, the "Earth Angel" operations are mentioned.
(2nd extract below describes Earth Angel). While we focus on US spec ops, the South Vietnamese had their own unit, and some Vietnamese have started to post accounts on the web.
"Pike Hill" operations also.

https://www.professionalsoldiers.com/forums/showthread.php?t=3514

Just a footnote to the above. Col Larry Trapp was the Chief of Airborne Opns for SOG. He said Billy bugged him for a couple years to get the Halo missions approved.
There were other HALO inserts of agents in NVN. These were Vietnamese, not American, agents.

One of the two missions my team turned down at CCN would have been the first low-level insert in Feb 70. (it was one of those the guy with the briefcase stapped to his arm deals). The "PLAN" was to have a Phantom shoot a homing beacon into a hill in Laos and then we would do a night jump on the beacon.

There were several things wrong with the "PLAN".
One we were jumping in triple canopy with no decenders. I asked so how do we get down? Answer lower your reserve. I said great so we are still 100 ft from the ground then what? No answer.
Second was assembly. I said ok now we jump in triple canopy and we get on the ground - how do we assemble? If you have ever been in triple canopy you know what I mean. 50 meters away you can't see or hear anything. You have to remember that the Bru didn't use radios - thought there were ghosts captured by us and kept in a metal box.... I asked if we were going to use the "crickets" like they used in WWII... NO Answer.
Last I said I had jumped small LZs at Bragg with experienced jumpers and it was a total mess even without someone shooting at you. They expected us to take our team and train for 5 days and then run the mission. My 10 and I declined

I talked with Capt Robb 2 years ago at SOAR. He actually ran the first airborne op. By then they had worked on the things we had brought up. Their LZ was flat without trees, but they now had decenders in case of tree landing. And they had a small transistor radio that homed in on a transmitter carried by Robb. Only problem they had was that one of the radio didn't work and one of the indig was seperated from the team (picked up on extraction). They landed, assembled called a lot of air, smoked a lot of enemy and got out without loss. Very successful operation.
__________________
Robert "Bru" Taylor



re South Vietnamese spec ops/parachuting

http://loiho.blogspot.com/2008/03/s-t-chc-nha-k-thut.html

Group 11, an airborne infiltration unit based at Da Nang, and Group 68, headquartered in Saigon with detachments at Kom Tum, was soon integrated under SMS command. Group 68 ran airborne trained rallier and agent units, including 'Earth Angels' (NVA ralliers) and 'Pike Hill' teams (Cambodian disguised as Khmer Communists). A typical Earth Angel operation took place on 15 December 1971, when a team was inserted by US aircraft on a reconnaissance mission into Mondolkiri Province, Cambodia. Pike Hill operations were focused in the same region, including a seven man POW recovery team dropped into Ba Kev, Cambodia, on 12 February 1971. Pike Hill operations even extended into Laos, e.g. the four man Pike Hill team parachuted onto the edge of the Bolovens Plateau on 28 December 1971, where it reported on enemy logistics traffic for almost two months. Pike Hill operations peaked in November 1972 when two teams were inserted by C-130 Blackbird aircraft flying at 250 feet north of Kompong Trach, Cambodia. Information from one of these teams resulted in 48 B-52 strikes within one day.