BruceSmith 3 #9076 March 21, 2009 QuoteCousin Brucie asked: "By the way, 377, what do I get calibrated against, or with? Pray tell. What do you hold to be bed-rock truth, down amongst the deepest of places in the center of your soul? " It's the way the sentences are written...all breathless and panting. I mean, even my snip of yours above is all breathy. The Cooper story is boring. It only deserves a recitation of facts and possibilities. But no one reads that. And no one tells you anything real, so you have to make up stuff. You have absolutely no current sources, even though the FBI investigation is supposed to be "hot". Like 377 wrote, you write like a fiction spy novel. Need shorter sentences. Quote How short? Sufficient? Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites snowmman 3 #9077 March 21, 2009 There's been a number of people on ebay trying to make money selling the FBI "files" on CD. Which is just stuff you can download for free from fbi.gov. I just noticed one new twist. This guy claims to include a copy of Duane Weber's death certificate. If he came to this thread, he could sell a copy of Duane Weber's FBI fingerprint card! Hey maybe I could sell a CD 'all the posts, pictures, videos ever posted by snowmman on the notorious "internet forum" referenced by FBI SAC Larry Carr when the Cooper case went hot in 2009.' (I've been searching for other internet forums talking about Cooper, and can't find any recent posts, so Carr must be talking about DZ.com??) from the ebay ad: (but it now $4.99, which is not bad. I notice the fiction book "D.B." is only going for like $8-$9 as an e-book) Included here you will receive: http://cgi.ebay.com/D-B-Cooper-PHOTOS-FBI-File-Death-Certificate-for-Resrch_W0QQitemZ390038762910QQcmdZViewItemQQptZLH_DefaultDomain_0?hash=item390038762910&_trksid=p3286.c0.m14&_trkparms=72%3A1205|66%3A2|65%3A12|39%3A1|240%3A1318|301%3A1|293%3A1|294%3A50 1. 2 glossy 4x6 photos of FBI sketches of D. B. Cooper, the first as sketched in 1971, the other as sketched in 1972. 2. FBI Files (over 175 pgs have been declassifed) on CD and viewable at your leisure in PDF format. Includes tons of news articles relating to the Cooper incident, FBI correspondence etc. Very cool. 3. PLUS the death certificate copy of suspect Duane Weber!!! No joke. Death certificate lists interesting info about Weber including place and date of birth, parents info, spouse, date and place of death and more. Really interesting material to study. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites skyjack71 0 #9078 March 21, 2009 Quote I find the Smokejumpers-CIA-Air America-Cooper link the most intriguing thing I've come across in these pages. AND so do I, but I was tooting this yrs ago - 1997 and the FBI turned a deaf ear. I proved Duane worked for a company with JMWave connections and that JMWave bought 727's. Duane's taxes showed 2 yrs of involvement with one company - (out of 9 agents - 4 or 5 had criminal background and they sold GOVERNMENT employees Insurance supplements. Wonder who provided the leads they worked? My agenda is very different from yours, but found some of your information "fuzzy", regarding the subjects of other writers such as Christiansen. DO you KNOW HOW many SUSPECTS - Florence has "positively" ID'd as Cooper? She was on record as saying Coffelt was Cooper (perhaps you need to read the very rare and basically buried Vegan articles by Byron Brown the son James Brown)and now she Id's Christiansen by simply fingering the photo and saying - "I thing you are on to something". Of course the forum and others will tell you I interpert everything my way and I DO have a one tract mind. I do NOT link Duane in anyway to your theory of subject idea - There is only one suspect Duane may have had knowledge of or contact with and that is Coffelt because of the Lawrence, Ks connection and Coffelt's aka - of ROSS. The FBI has been so secretive about Duane's criminal record - it was promised to me and never delivered (I made several requests). The FBI agent made part of it public on this forum, but NEVER sent the details to me. I will explain that I very upset with the standards of the FBI - especially since some of the individuals who went to WA had privey to the records of Duane L. Weber and his wife can't have them..... Does it take a trip to the FBI office in Seattle for the wife to recieve the records - in detail and complete? The FBI has never done the SIMPLE SS checks I asked them to do - for dual income under his AKA and dual income under another name he used. AGENT CARR knows what that name is and it is not John Collins. I do not have the files for Jefferson and Columbia, but I had the others before the FBI had them. I did my own search and contacted living relatives of the other suspected AKA and was told that their uncle never worked in the specific area I asked them about. This "man" worked in OR. YES, agent CARR I found MAX.Copyright 2006, 2007, 2008, 2009, 2010, 2011, 2012 2013, 2014, 2015 by Jo Weber Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites snowmman 3 #9079 March 21, 2009 Of all the theories we've had, any kind of loadmaster service in the WA area, or smokejumper training, is the most easily investigated. I don't think the smokejumper thing is all that interesting. What I find interesting, is that I don't think it was ever investigated deeply, beyond calling up someone in 1971. Who probably said "Hell, none of my boys would do something like that." The FBI did interview at least one smokejumper guy. Lee Kahler http://www.smokejumpers.com/obituaries/item.php?obituaries_id=427 He had a Boeing connection, as long-term employee. Was NCSB 1946. NCSB is North Cascades Smokerjumpers Base. If we just knew the whole list of Smokejumpers they talked to, we could get past this. But we'll never know. The obit makes it sound like they interviewed more than one smokejumper. But I doubt they hit all the possibles. "Lee died in October 1984. He was a native of Winthrop and worked at Boeing in Seattle until his retirement. He and his wife lived in Chelan after his retirement until his death. Lee was another one of the jumpers who were interviewed by the FBI in the D.B. Cooper case." Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites 377 22 #9080 March 21, 2009 QuoteBy the way, 377, what do I get calibrated against, or with? Pray tell. What do you hold to be bed-rock truth, down amongst the deepest of places in the center of your soul? No bedrock truth type of calibration Cousin Brucie, just checking what kind of Kool Aid you drink. I am an avid reader of all that WTC, UFO and JFK conspiracy/coverup stuff, but I believe the simple explanations. Two planes, one assassin and no alien visitors. I REALLY want the impossibly weird to be true, but all that damned thermodynamics and physics stuff keeps getting between me and belief, so I read Philip K. Dick and HP Lovecraft to get my fix. MK Ultra was real. So was COINTELPRO. They didn't require new age physics, just CIA and FBI bad behavior. You are probably as big a skeptic as I am, but you notice how many tabloids get sold and learn to speak Elvis and UFO really fluently. Hey, a guy needs to pay his rent and buy a few groceries. In hard times, tabloid journalism serves a noble palliative function. Barb Dayton makes a really good Cooper from that angle. 3772018 marks half a century as a skydiver. Trained by the late Perry Stevens D-51 in 1968. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites georger 258 #9081 March 21, 2009 My agenda is very different from yours, but found some of your information "fuzzy", regarding the subjects of other writers such as Christiansen. DO you KNOW HOW many SUSPECTS - Florence has "positively" ID'd as Cooper? She was on record as saying Coffelt was Cooper (perhaps you need to read the very rare and basically buried Vegan articles by Byron Brown the son James Brown)and now she Id's Christiansen by simply fingering the photo and saying - "I thing you are on to something". Of course the forum and others will tell you I interpert everything my way and I DO have a one tract mind. I do NOT link Duane in anyway to your theory of subject idea - There is only one suspect Duane may have had knowledge of or contact with and that is Coffelt because of the Lawrence, Ks connection and Coffelt's aka - of ROSS. Well as usual Jo Weber has it all wrong, and doesn't even have the basic facts straight, in her publicity seeking quest: To begin, the socalled "very rare and basically buried Vegan articles by Byron Brown the son James..." arent rare at all. Still available upon request. (2) and it isnt the "Vegan", it is the "Las Vegan Magazine". (3) and Byron Brown and his son were not the authors; the article in question was ABOUT Byron Brown and his claim that one Jack Cofelt was DB Cooper. The article was written by Jack Sheehan (not Byron Brown!). In 2008 Jack Sheehan wrote a short recapitulation of his earlier Las Vegan Magazine article about Brown, which I will attach below in complete form. I am doing this as a public service. Why Im doing it is totally beyond me! ____________________________________________ Jack Sheehan names names as the FBI tries to solve the mystery of D.B. Cooper By Jack Sheehan Tue, Jan 22, 2008 (2 a.m.) I was intrigued last month when the FBI announced it was reopening the investigation into the hijacking of a Northwest Airlines 727 jet in November 1971. Special Agent Larry Carr in Seattle is leading the investigation of the legendary and oft-romanticized D.B. Cooper skyjacking in hope of solving one of the most intriguing mysteries of the past century. Stories have been circulating recently on the Internet and across AP wires suggesting that anyone with information about the crime should come forward. Well, I’m coming forward today, but first I’d like to know, in the interests of my young children’s college educations, how much the reward is. I mean, I’m a self-employed writer with mouths to feed, so how ’bout it? To do my American duty, and perhaps add to the fun of chasing down a mystery that more than likely will never be solved, I give this name to FBI agent Larry Carr: Bryant “Jack” Coffelt. That’s who I believe to be the real D.B. Cooper. Here’s why I think Coffelt is their man: In the early 1980s a handsome young writer in his mid-30s named Byron Brown -- a “separated at birth” clone of actor Dennis Quaid -- approached me with what he said was definitive proof that a man he knew, a former prison buddy of his father’s named Jack Coffelt, was indeed the hijacker. Brown didn’t just present a hunch; he provided me with more than 200 pages of careful research he had compiled over the previous eight years. After dissecting Brown’s findings for several weeks and grilling him repeatedly in an attempt to shoot holes in his findings, I eventually became convinced that his conclusions were valid. We condensed his book-length findings into a 12,000-word, two-part article that ran in October and November 1983 in a magazine I edited called Las Vegan. Subsequently, the Associated Press interviewed Brown and me and ran an international wire story on Brown’s findings, which opened the media floodgates. Over the ensuing several weeks, Brown and I must have done 30 to 50 newspaper, TV and radio interviews from coast to coast. We were even screened by producers of the popular “Phil Donahue Show,” wondering whether we’d be willing to fly to Chicago for an appearance. But as the days passed our information got so much media exposure that Donahue eventually thought our story had “gone stale.” I was included in all these interviews as the editor who bought the story and was willing to stand behind its conclusions, but of course Brown was the one who had to answer all the difficult questions. Brown never once buckled on his findings, was never shown to be careless or unprofessional in his reporting, and made believers of nearly all who interrogated him. Though I’d need all the pages of today’s Sun to include every piece of Brown’s compelling evidence, here are a few of the morsels he presented in his articles: • In 1974, Brown and his father made a trip with Coffelt to the skyjacker’s likely landing spot in the Northwest to look for the backpack with money that Coffelt claimed had been blown from his shoulder grip when he left the aircraft. A beacon light, parts of an old Jeep and residue of parachute cord, all of which Coffelt had described to Brown, were found in the exact locations he had pinpointed on a map before their expedition. • Northwest Airlines stewardess Florence Schaffner, who was handed the ransom note from D.B. Cooper and spent most of the flight seated next to him, had rejected dozens of photos and composite drawings of potential suspects that had been presented to her by the FBI. But when Brown tracked down Schaffner in Hawaii years later and showed her Coffelt’s photos, she gasped and said, “Oh my God! Where did you get those? I never thought I would see that face again! It’s him! My God, it’s him!” • Seattle attorney George LeBissoniere, who sat three seats from Cooper on that fateful night, also positively identified him as the skyjacker from those photos. LeBissoniere then added a curious comment. “I identified those same pictures for the FBI six weeks after the skyjacking,” he said. It was known that Coffelt had been a government informant on several high-profile cases in the years before 1971, and some speculate that, to avoid compromising the work he did for the CIA, his identity as the man known as D.B. Cooper has been kept hidden by the government. So there you have it. Jack Coffelt is your boy. Send my reward money care of the Las Vegas Sun. And while I’m debunking, I’ll give you 5-1 odds that Warren Beatty is the subject of Simon’s hit song. (The only other person who knows for certain is TV producer Dick Ebersol, who bought exclusive rights to the information at a Martha’s Vineyard charity auction in 2003. But he had to sign a confidentiality agreement, so he’s not talking.) Jack Sheehan; Las Vegas Sun http://www.lasvegassun.com/news/2008/jan/22/jack-sheehan-names-names-fbi-tries-solve-mystery-d/ Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites snowmman 3 #9082 March 21, 2009 "Barb Dayton makes a really good Cooper from that angle." I agree the bills must be paid. I would play up the macho-man image of Himmelsbach. In his book he dismissed one suspect just because he was too feminine. I think part of the interesting part of Cooper, is how he messed with people's male image....i.e. he had to be a kook, because macho men like Himmelsbach, and skydivers of the day, and paratroopers, and ... said so. That reminds me: Is this next guy a kook? or no? I was trying to analyze the risk in this plane to plane skydive. The hard part is that the target plane is in a vertical dive, it has a drogue chute to slow it down? So it's descent rate is maybe 110 mph, and the jumper is matching that. Now 110mph is 161 ft/sec, and the jumper is just 10' or so above the prop of the plane. So assuming the plane and jumper can vary their relative descent rates by 10% pretty quickly, that's a 16' vertical relative blip in one second easily.. so one fuckup and you're in the prop...I guess he's got to make the horizontal distance across the prop risk envelope into the cabin quickly. Still, if you did this 30 times, I think you'd end up in the prop at least once? Can't imagine the plane to jumper relative vertical speed, and horizontal, is that controllable over many repetitions. What cracks me up in the video is the classic white middle to upper class parents, acting all concerned, but confident in their son who is well trained. Bullshit! He's just another guy going for it, tweaking the odds, and sure he's trained, and there's a pretty good chance of success. But basically, he's rolling the dice against the physics variations involved, and hoping he can react to any variances. Have people dissected this before? I'm interested in how jumpers perceive the difficulty here. Assume balls=0. I mean once you decide you just wanna do it because you "believe" it can be done, there's no balls involved. The real question is repeatability. Can this be done 50 times without getting the chop, literally? http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GGphGbJool4 I'm not dissing the guy. Heck it's on youtube, so I guess he wants people to watch it. I'm just wondering about it. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites 377 22 #9083 March 21, 2009 I don't think it's as risky as it looks. The plane's descent rate with the drogue deployed is pretty steady. You could set up your jumpsuit and weight so that you had to arch pretty hard to match the plane's rate. Then it's easy to de arch a bit to slow down and avoid the prop if need be. The dangerous part is the actual entrance into the plane. If you lost your grip and tumbled out without a lot of surface area presented you probably could fall into the prop. I'd have chosen a plane that had a featherable prop. Why take more risk than you need to? 3772018 marks half a century as a skydiver. Trained by the late Perry Stevens D-51 in 1968. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites skyjack71 0 #9084 March 21, 2009 nothing is messed up - have both editions here at my home and they are written by Byrom Brown himslef. Will get them out another time but they are there are not avallable except thru them. Snow knows how to find them. Too late for me - GO to bed.Copyright 2006, 2007, 2008, 2009, 2010, 2011, 2012 2013, 2014, 2015 by Jo Weber Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites bigway 4 #9085 March 21, 2009 Have we found DB Cooper yet? Does Carr still write in the forums or has he been in another fight and packed up all his toys? .Karnage Krew Gear Store . Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites 377 22 #9086 March 21, 2009 Carr is still active. His FBI day job is catching bank robbers, but his professional interest in NORJACK continues. Carr interacts with selected "citizen DBC sleuths" but he no longer posts here, which is a shame. We are the DBC crack ghetto here. You need to move uptown if you want to party with Carr. Have we found DBC? Hell yeah, at least five of them. Bruce thinks there may be even more. 3772018 marks half a century as a skydiver. Trained by the late Perry Stevens D-51 in 1968. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites snowmman 3 #9087 March 21, 2009 QuoteCarr is still active. His FBI day job is catching bank robbers, but his professional interest in NORJACK continues. Carr interacts with selected "citizen DBC sleuths" but he no longer posts here, which is a shame. We are the DBC crack ghetto here. You need to move uptown if you want to party with Carr. Have we found DBC? Hell yeah, at least five of them. Bruce thinks there may be even more. 377 According to the fbi site: http://www.fbi.gov/page2/march09/dbcooper031709.html "Carr discovered the comic book connection on D.B. Cooper Internet forums, where fascination with the case is undiminished. The forums are also where Carr found the “citizen sleuths” who volunteered to help us reinvigorate the case." So there's the implication of multiple Internet forums actively posting. There have been a flurry of one-offs posted recently to various forums as a result of the comic book thing. But I've not seen any posts at other forums for a while. Not since the parachute find last year. Georger is trying to get some momentum going at another site. I think outside of DZ.com, they have a hard time keeping the conversation interesting. Historically they like to debate McCoy=Cooper, Mayfield=Cooper, Duane==Cooper. But they only really discuss names that get tossed into the pot. The team of "citizen sleuths" that's working with the FBI is dissembled from the TV video and fbi site: Tom Kaye partner Carol A. Alan Stone (metallurgist) Brian Ingram There may be others. Tom K. was going to publish a scientific paper shortly, but that may have been scuttled. Supposedly pollen was found on the tie, metal on the money and who knows what else. Money bundles have been tagged and thrown in various rivers, so people can find them. The FBI is looking for someone with air force loadmaster background, possibly interested in comic books. (edit) oh yeah, Tom K is on a mission to validate the data behind the flight path. There are people of the H. sect, who believe in 305 flying all over the place. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites snowmman 3 #9088 March 21, 2009 We've touched on this before, but I'm putting a finer point on this issue here. I've posted a number of things speculating that 305 was visible on Seattle ARTCC radar all the way down past PDX. I started looking thru the transcripts to see the times Seattle ARTCC requested transponder idents from 305. Sluggo's timeline mention of an ident made me wonder about this. -It does appear that Seattle ARTCC radar could track all the way past PDX -a la Nixon tapes, there's a 18 minute ARTCC comm gap at the critical juncture :) background on how this works is at: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Air_traffic_control_radar_beacon_system "The transponder has a small required set of controls and is simple to operate. It has a method to enter the four-digit transponder code, also known as a beacon code or squawk code, and a control to transmit an ident, which is done at the controller's request" "The air traffic controller can request the pilot to ident, and when the identity control is activated, the SPI bit will be added to the reply for about 20 seconds (two to four rotations of the interrogator antenna) thereby highlighting the track on the controllers display." Basically, sequential-in-time ident requests indicate likely visibility on radar, right? Eventually Seattle ARTCC says that the transponder is lost at 8:54 PST From the Seattle ARTCC transcripts (page 70 of 99) ident requests are at: (SEA R5 & R6 are operators at Seattle ARTCC) SEA R5 - 08:13:14 PST ident request SEA R5 - 08:15:52 the altimeter setting that Sluggo highlights is given here No communications with Seattle ARTCC for 18 minutes. This is not atypical? Suggests that the radar was tracking well? There are gaps later on also. SEA R5 - 08:33:46 PST 305 signs off from SEA R5 saying "so long" and SEA R5 acknowledges "Good day sir" This is after telling 305 to contact Seattle Center (assume this is Seattle ARTCC) on 125.8 Mhz. (I guess switching frequencies) SEA R6 - 08:33:55 PST ident request. Note R6 is a new operator. SEA R6 - 08:45:45 PST some comm. SEA R6 - 08:54:53 "Roger sir I lost your transponder" Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites snowmman 3 #9089 March 21, 2009 I said before I was confused that the flight path was apparently determined using both radar and FDR data. In looking at some FAA accident reports (recent) I found that a flight path was estimated, using ATC radar and DFDR data. So then I looked for NTSB info on how they used ATC + DFDR to estimate flight paths. Found something interesting here (I think I referenced this page before) http://www.ntsb.gov/Events/symp_rec/proceedings/authors/grossi.htm ------------------------------------------- "Utilization of ATC Recordings by Accident Investigators The importance of ATC recorded data will be determined by the circumstances surrounding an accident or incident. Accidents or incidents involving very dynamic conditions, such as aerodynamic stall and loss of control, are difficult to evaluate with ATC data alone. ATC data are more significant for less dynamic accidents, such as controlled flight into terrain, or when used in conjunction with FDR and CVR data. The correlation of events common to the ATC recordings and the FDR and CVR recordings can provide a very accurate local time reference. This can become critical because the FDR and CVR are only required to record relative time and the local time reference may vary from one ATC facility to the next. ATC radar and FDR data can be correlated by comparing the altitude time histories whereas ATC communication recordings can be correlated by the radio transmission time histories recorded by the various ATC facilities and the CVR and FDR. In addition to a time reference, ATC-recorded information will also provide ground track reference, which is essential in performance-related accidents. A wind model can be developed when radar flight path data are combined with FDR parameters such as altitude airspeed and heading and airplane acceleration parameters. This is particularly useful in accidents or incidents involving dynamic meteorological conditions such as wind shears or crosswind and turbulence conditions. ATC radar data are particularly useful in evaluating the relative position of aircraft when multiple aircraft are involved. Investigations of mid-air collisions and wake turbulence encounters rely heavily on this information. There are significant accuracy and resolution limitations that must be taken into consideration when using recorded radar data. The accuracy limitations are known and should be factored into the ground track calculations. The sampling intervals of 4.7 to 12 seconds, presents a significant limitation on usefulness of recorded radar data. " ---------------------------------------------------- I've been curious about why we only have flight path data transcribed at one minute intervals on the flight path map . It may be that a human extracted information at that resolution. I think the technology in 1971 had higher resolution. Note they talk about reverse-engineering a wind model, by combining FDR and radar info. Interesting. The wind could have been predicted exactly at each point? Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites snowmman 3 #9090 March 21, 2009 from that same page: (note they should have logged altitude also if they were getting the transponder?) "The most accurate position coordinates recorded by the ARTCC are in latitude and longitude, whereas approach radar records position coordinates as range and azimuth values, and both record the transponder-generated altitude values. Military and private radar facilities can provide similar position time history information." Seems to suggest military-provided data would also be lat, long. This all is good because it eliminates the idea of "errors" due to range/azimuth numbers from a radar installation, which 377 was talking about, way back in the thread. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites skyjack71 0 #9091 March 21, 2009 Quote. This all is good because it eliminates the idea of "errors" due to range/azimuth numbers from a radar installation, which 377 was talking about, way back in the thread. Snowmman: Are you talking about that VOR - I guess that is the ID (not going back to find it)? The radar contraption around Orchards and below Battleground? 377: Could someone rig a contraption using a back brace with metal staves and the battery in the "bomb" to give signals to the wearer of the brace he was near the VOR? Forgive me for not remembering the technical terms - short term memory loss! Duane had this back brace he would not let me throw away - yet, there was NO way it would have fit him during our marriage. I finally threw it away after he died. This brace had lace-up cords to tighten it - like a corset, NOTE: Duane NEVER complained about his back during our marriage. In fact he NEVER ccmplained about pain of any kind. The notes on pain made me remember something else about Duane - he NEVER complained about pain. He was given pain medication when he broke bones, but used little of it. He never complained about much of anything - it was as if he was so grateful for what he had - that there was NOTHING to complain about. If he was angry - he was known to SULK, but NOT complain. I suppose that is something he learned from spending so much time in prison - not to complain. My personal opinion is that complaining would only subject the individual to retailiation by other prisoners and personnel.Copyright 2006, 2007, 2008, 2009, 2010, 2011, 2012 2013, 2014, 2015 by Jo Weber Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites snowmman 3 #9092 March 21, 2009 jo asked "Snowmman: Are you talking about that VOR - I guess that is the ID (not going back to find it)? The radar contraption around Orchards and below Battleground?" No, just exploring issues around how the flight path map we have might have been created, and whether they knew where Flight 305 was that night, or not. other note: I've read other things that said the system ARTCC uses has a different set of radar symbols than the in-close ATC, and that a different symbol pops up if the plane is "off-course". Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites snowmman 3 #9093 March 21, 2009 2003 event Note that Padilla is 50 years old. 6'2", brown hair, brown eyes. and from Pensacola, FL also. Really. Must be the water down there. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/N844AA http://www.iasa.com.au/folders/Security_Issues/727disappears.html best, latest summary here: http://www.charleyproject.org/cases/p/padilla_ben.html fbi seeking info on Padilla in 2004 http://www.thewebfairy.com/911/boeing/padilla_files/PADILLA.HTM Padilla, a United States citizen from Pensacola, Florida, was overseeing rebuilding work on a Boeing 727 airplane at the DeFevereiro International Airport in Angola in 2003. The plane had been there for two years. Padilla had been working there for two months; his duties included supervising the team of mechanics. He was also going to hire a pilot and co-pilot once the plane was in flyable condition. Padilla is a licensed aircraft mechanic, flight engineer, and pilot of small airplanes, but he is not licensed to fly a 727 and has never flown a plane that large. He was going to be the flight engineer when it took to the air. The company that owned the plane was going to repossess it from Air Angola, which had failed to make its lease payments, and fly it to South Africa. Maury Joseph, the president Aerospace Sales & Leasing Co. which owns the plane, visited the site two weeks before Padilla disappeared to see how things were going. He gave Padilla $43,000 to pay holding fees to the airport. Padilla paid the fees and faxed the receipt to Joseph. On May 25, 2003, at approximately 6:00 p.m., the 727 took off without clearance or a flight plan, and has not been seen since. A photograph of a plane similar to the missing one is posted below this case summary. It is described as a 28-year-old 200 series 727 with a tail number of N844AA, and a serial number of 20985, unpainted silver in color with a stripe of blue, white, and blue. The plane was formerly in the American Airlines passenger air fleet, but all of the passenger seats have been removed and replaced with fuel containers. The plane is outfitted to carry diesel fuel and had taken on 14,000 gallons of A-1 jet fuel shortly before it departed. Padilla disappeared at the same time as the plane and is believed to have been on it when it took off. John Mikel Mutantu, another crew member from the Congo, is also believed to have been on the plane. Photographs and vital statistics for Mutantu are unavailable. The plane may have originally been headed in the direction of Burkina Faso. Its last radio contact was to ask for landing permission in the Seychelles Islands, which are in the Indian Ocean east of Africa. The plane never actually attempted to land there. Padilla's brother believes that Padilla did not leave voluntarily and that the plane may have been hijacked by terrorists. He claims that he and Padilla discussed the possibility that this might happen and Padilla said he would crash the plane rather than fly it anywhere against his will. Based on his memory of this conversation, Padilla's brother believes he was either killed or is being held prisoner somewhere. Joseph agrees with this theory; he does not think Padilla stole the plane either. He does not have a history of criminal behavior. It is worth noting, however, that Joseph himself has been convicted of forging documents and defrauding investors by exaggerating the profits of another company he ran. American authorities believe that the plane was stolen as part of a financial scam or possibly a business dispute. Three American agencies, the Federal Bureau of Investigation (FBI), the National Security Agency (NSA) the American Central Intelligence Agency (CIA), are all looking for Padilla, Mutantu, and the plane. England and several African nations are also searching for them. In the summer of 2003 a plane was found in New Guinea and rumors spread that it was the missing 727, but this turned out not to be the case. Padilla and Mutantu's cases remain unsolved; they and the plane are still missing. The circumstances surrounding their disappearances are unclear. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites 377 22 #9094 March 21, 2009 Quote 377: Could someone rig a contraption using a back brace with metal staves and the battery in the "bomb" to give signals to the wearer of the brace he was near the VOR? Forgive me for not remembering the technical terms - short term memory loss! Jo, No, I don't think the back brace had any relation to radio gear of any kind. VOR direction data takes a complicated phase detecting circuit to decode and a "plain" VOR ground station (with no DME, distance measuring equipment) will not give range info. The battery described in Cooper's bomb sounds like a 1.5 volt cell which is pretty useless for the kind of VOR proximity "contraption" you envision. A back brace with multiple metal staves would serve no good purpose as a VOR antenna as a VOR receiver would work fine with a small simple whip antenna or even a short piece of wire. Today many cheap aviation walkie talkies have a VOR function which gives you a radial readout indicating the direction to or from the VOR station. These inexpensive units weren't available in 71 as far as I know. Some cheap portable FM radios will actually receive VOR stations at the upper end of the dial, but you get no useful range info, just an audio signal with a voice announcement saying the VOR station name and some Morse code ID too. 3772018 marks half a century as a skydiver. Trained by the late Perry Stevens D-51 in 1968. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites 377 22 #9095 March 22, 2009 Wow Snow! If a 727 can vanish what hope do we have a finding perishable jettisoned cargo (Cooper)? Interestingly, a large plane can go down at sea without leaving much of a trace. I cant find it (maybe you can?) but I once read an eyewitness account from some folks who saw a Lockheed Constellation cargo plane come down in a spin in the Caribbean. It hit the sea hard. The observers who were on a sailboat searched the nearby impact area and found only a light oil slick and a few large pieces of butchered beef (the plane was carrying beef cargo). How did ATC radar in 71 get lat lon on plane echoes? Was it just electronically estimated from the position on the scope? As far as I know there was nothing on a domestic NWA 727 in 71 that generated lat lon info. International aircraft had INS gear, but not domestic ones. 3772018 marks half a century as a skydiver. Trained by the late Perry Stevens D-51 in 1968. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites snowmman 3 #9096 March 22, 2009 377 said: "How did ATC radar in 71 get lat lon on plane echoes? Was it just electronically estimated from the position on the scope? As far as I know there was nothing on a domestic NWA 727 in 71 that generated lat lon info. International aircraft had INS gear, but not domestic ones. " It does sound like it's estimated. (see info from a company at bottom of this post). It might be just how the system presented information, like you say. You're right that only altitude and the 4-digit code would have been there in '71, from the plane's transponder. Maybe the web page I was quoting was just referring to modern gear? (don't think so..think it was referring to what data was "presented/stored/logged?) -------------------------------------------------------------- re modern gear: Here's a post talking about how new ADS-B equipment transmits lat/long from planes, but old mode C transponders just did pressure altitude and the 4-digit code. He's talking about this system which is an amateur box that can receive the ADS-B stuff. "The SBS-1 allows you to track ADS-B aircraft on the radar screen and identifies and displays Mode-S equipped aircraft." http://www.kinetic-avionics.co.uk/sbs-1.php from a forum post: "Ground stations send out "interrogation" signals, and the receivers in the aircraft broadcast replies that are picked up by the ground station. This amateur box just picks up those replies. That's why it'll only show you aircraft with ADS-B equipment (that means pretty much only airliners; newer GA aircraft with advanced avionics like a G1000 have Mode S but not ADS-B) -- the "old" Mode C transponders just transmitted pressure altitude and a 4-digit code, so without an additional DF or primary radar scan, you'd have no way of knowing the aircraft's location. The newer ADS-B systems broadcast a lot more information, including the aircraft's latitude/longitude. This thing receives those ADS-B transmissions that were meant for FAA stations, decodes the latitude/longitude/altitude information, and spits it out." ---------------------------------- Hey! here's a company that converts the radar data from the FAA into more understandable data... they say: http://www.atc-radar.com/serv02.htm "Radar Data Analysis A radar target location is determined by the range (distance from the antenna) and azimuth (direction from the antenna). The range and azimuth of a radar target report can be affected many factors. The approach control antenna (TRACON) rotates 360 degrees in approximately 4.6 seconds. Therefore you would expect to see a target report every of a particular aircraft on every sweep of the radar antenna. The enroute radar antenna (ARTCC) rotates approximately once every 11 seconds. The ARTCC computer converts the range and azimuth values to X/Y values and then to Latitude and Longitude locations. This firm has the experience and expertise to convert the computer data list provided by the FAA to an understandable and visual presentation. " "Radar data listings from the FAA can be provided in different formats. There are two basic types of radar facilities. The Air Route Traffic Control Center (ARTCC) provides radar coverage throughout most of the United States, subject to line of sight of the radar antenna. The Terminal Radar Approach Control (TRACON) facility only provides radar coverage within 60 nautical miles of the facilities antenna. TRACON facilities are normally located at major airports. However, not all TRACON's record radar data. The location of the accident/incident and the length of the flight track needed determines the number and type of radar facilities from which recorded the radar data is needed. This firm, through the use of special computer software can provide graphical depictions of the flight track of the aircraft flight. With a full analysis of the radar data, ground speed, direction of flight, and rate of climb/descent can also be determined." Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites snowmman 3 #9097 March 22, 2009 maybe you're mixing two stories 377. (hey I'm looking at lockeed constellation crashes and found a couple of interesting stories) here's one, but no beef in this story, and the plane wasn't lost. oct, 1981 (some incorrectly report it as 1980) crew of 5. 2 rescued. 1 body. pilot/co-pilot never found. cargo. fruits and vegetables. picture of it floating attached. it sank while they were towing it, and is now a popular dive site (sits in 45 feet of water, 100 yards off shore) Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites snowmman 3 #9098 March 22, 2009 ksea (western washington traffic control) http://www.liveatc.net/flisten.php?mount=ksea 119.2 - Departure East 120.4 - Departure West 133.65 - Seattle Final N/S 123.9 - Arrival East 125.6 - Arrival West 119.9 - Seattle Tower ksea tower http://www.liveatc.net/flisten.php?mount=ksea_tw SeaTac Tower: 119.9 (EAST) 120.95 (WEST) ksea misc. http://www.liveatc.net/flisten.php?mount=ksea_misc Seattle Approach: 126.5, 391.9 Seattle Center: 126.6, 343.6 KTCM Tower: 124.8, 125.15, and 259.3 links from http://www.liveatc.net/feedindex.php?type=all#ksea Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites skyjack71 0 #9099 March 22, 2009 Quote No, I don't think the back brace had any relation to radio gear of any kind. Some where along the line - I got the impression one could rig up a wire that would vibrate when passing near that VOR. Maybe Cooper didn't know or care where that VOR was, but Duane knew where it was and pointed it out after we passed it so I never saw it - just what he said, but I didn't understand what he was talking about - so I just let it go. The only thing I understood at that time was that is was some type of radar detection for airplanes. serious questions for the FBI which they don't give a xxxx about. Who built the power lines and the pipelines? When were the lines built? When was that VOR built and who built it and when. IF THE FBI investigates these things and obtains the employment records of Duane L. Weber including ALL alias - and the FBI knows what these alias are and the FBI knows I don't mean John C. Collins. The might find the name of Ed Hurand (Huran, Horand, Horan) there also. Amazing what the FBI might know if they had interviewed the right people in 1996 and 1997 - Amazing that they wait UNTIL 4 of these people are deceased to say Duane Weber was not Cooper per the supposed DNA evidence. You Guys know that my sister city - Alberta, Ala home of The Emerald Coast Skydivers had quiet a shindig last wk. When I lived in the Pensacola area - it was only 35 minutes to Alberta...now I live that far in the opposite direction.Copyright 2006, 2007, 2008, 2009, 2010, 2011, 2012 2013, 2014, 2015 by Jo Weber Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites 377 22 #9100 March 22, 2009 QuoteSome where along the line - I got the impression one could rig up a wire that would vibrate when passing near that VOR. Maybe Cooper didn't know or care where that VOR was, but Duane knew where it was and pointed it out after we passed it so I never saw it - just what he said, but I didn't understand what he was talking about - so I just let it go. The only thing I understood at that time was that is was some type of radar detection for airplanes. No Jo, that wire vibrating VOR detector idea is waaaay off base. VOR stations have nothing to do with radar. VORs do not detect airplanes. They broadcast navigational radio signals that are received by planes. VOR stations are visually distinct from other types and are characterized by a radial array of antennas. Take a look. http://images.google.com/images?q=VOR%20station&sourceid=navclient-ff&rlz=1B3GGGL_enUS305US306&um=1&ie=UTF-8&sa=N&hl=en&tab=wi 3772018 marks half a century as a skydiver. Trained by the late Perry Stevens D-51 in 1968. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites Prev 359 360 361 362 363 364 365 366 367 368 369 Next Page 364 of 2591 Join the conversation You can post now and register later. If you have an account, sign in now to post with your account. Note: Your post will require moderator approval before it will be visible. 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snowmman 3 #9077 March 21, 2009 There's been a number of people on ebay trying to make money selling the FBI "files" on CD. Which is just stuff you can download for free from fbi.gov. I just noticed one new twist. This guy claims to include a copy of Duane Weber's death certificate. If he came to this thread, he could sell a copy of Duane Weber's FBI fingerprint card! Hey maybe I could sell a CD 'all the posts, pictures, videos ever posted by snowmman on the notorious "internet forum" referenced by FBI SAC Larry Carr when the Cooper case went hot in 2009.' (I've been searching for other internet forums talking about Cooper, and can't find any recent posts, so Carr must be talking about DZ.com??) from the ebay ad: (but it now $4.99, which is not bad. I notice the fiction book "D.B." is only going for like $8-$9 as an e-book) Included here you will receive: http://cgi.ebay.com/D-B-Cooper-PHOTOS-FBI-File-Death-Certificate-for-Resrch_W0QQitemZ390038762910QQcmdZViewItemQQptZLH_DefaultDomain_0?hash=item390038762910&_trksid=p3286.c0.m14&_trkparms=72%3A1205|66%3A2|65%3A12|39%3A1|240%3A1318|301%3A1|293%3A1|294%3A50 1. 2 glossy 4x6 photos of FBI sketches of D. B. Cooper, the first as sketched in 1971, the other as sketched in 1972. 2. FBI Files (over 175 pgs have been declassifed) on CD and viewable at your leisure in PDF format. Includes tons of news articles relating to the Cooper incident, FBI correspondence etc. Very cool. 3. PLUS the death certificate copy of suspect Duane Weber!!! No joke. Death certificate lists interesting info about Weber including place and date of birth, parents info, spouse, date and place of death and more. Really interesting material to study. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
skyjack71 0 #9078 March 21, 2009 Quote I find the Smokejumpers-CIA-Air America-Cooper link the most intriguing thing I've come across in these pages. AND so do I, but I was tooting this yrs ago - 1997 and the FBI turned a deaf ear. I proved Duane worked for a company with JMWave connections and that JMWave bought 727's. Duane's taxes showed 2 yrs of involvement with one company - (out of 9 agents - 4 or 5 had criminal background and they sold GOVERNMENT employees Insurance supplements. Wonder who provided the leads they worked? My agenda is very different from yours, but found some of your information "fuzzy", regarding the subjects of other writers such as Christiansen. DO you KNOW HOW many SUSPECTS - Florence has "positively" ID'd as Cooper? She was on record as saying Coffelt was Cooper (perhaps you need to read the very rare and basically buried Vegan articles by Byron Brown the son James Brown)and now she Id's Christiansen by simply fingering the photo and saying - "I thing you are on to something". Of course the forum and others will tell you I interpert everything my way and I DO have a one tract mind. I do NOT link Duane in anyway to your theory of subject idea - There is only one suspect Duane may have had knowledge of or contact with and that is Coffelt because of the Lawrence, Ks connection and Coffelt's aka - of ROSS. The FBI has been so secretive about Duane's criminal record - it was promised to me and never delivered (I made several requests). The FBI agent made part of it public on this forum, but NEVER sent the details to me. I will explain that I very upset with the standards of the FBI - especially since some of the individuals who went to WA had privey to the records of Duane L. Weber and his wife can't have them..... Does it take a trip to the FBI office in Seattle for the wife to recieve the records - in detail and complete? The FBI has never done the SIMPLE SS checks I asked them to do - for dual income under his AKA and dual income under another name he used. AGENT CARR knows what that name is and it is not John Collins. I do not have the files for Jefferson and Columbia, but I had the others before the FBI had them. I did my own search and contacted living relatives of the other suspected AKA and was told that their uncle never worked in the specific area I asked them about. This "man" worked in OR. YES, agent CARR I found MAX.Copyright 2006, 2007, 2008, 2009, 2010, 2011, 2012 2013, 2014, 2015 by Jo Weber Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
snowmman 3 #9079 March 21, 2009 Of all the theories we've had, any kind of loadmaster service in the WA area, or smokejumper training, is the most easily investigated. I don't think the smokejumper thing is all that interesting. What I find interesting, is that I don't think it was ever investigated deeply, beyond calling up someone in 1971. Who probably said "Hell, none of my boys would do something like that." The FBI did interview at least one smokejumper guy. Lee Kahler http://www.smokejumpers.com/obituaries/item.php?obituaries_id=427 He had a Boeing connection, as long-term employee. Was NCSB 1946. NCSB is North Cascades Smokerjumpers Base. If we just knew the whole list of Smokejumpers they talked to, we could get past this. But we'll never know. The obit makes it sound like they interviewed more than one smokejumper. But I doubt they hit all the possibles. "Lee died in October 1984. He was a native of Winthrop and worked at Boeing in Seattle until his retirement. He and his wife lived in Chelan after his retirement until his death. Lee was another one of the jumpers who were interviewed by the FBI in the D.B. Cooper case." Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
377 22 #9080 March 21, 2009 QuoteBy the way, 377, what do I get calibrated against, or with? Pray tell. What do you hold to be bed-rock truth, down amongst the deepest of places in the center of your soul? No bedrock truth type of calibration Cousin Brucie, just checking what kind of Kool Aid you drink. I am an avid reader of all that WTC, UFO and JFK conspiracy/coverup stuff, but I believe the simple explanations. Two planes, one assassin and no alien visitors. I REALLY want the impossibly weird to be true, but all that damned thermodynamics and physics stuff keeps getting between me and belief, so I read Philip K. Dick and HP Lovecraft to get my fix. MK Ultra was real. So was COINTELPRO. They didn't require new age physics, just CIA and FBI bad behavior. You are probably as big a skeptic as I am, but you notice how many tabloids get sold and learn to speak Elvis and UFO really fluently. Hey, a guy needs to pay his rent and buy a few groceries. In hard times, tabloid journalism serves a noble palliative function. Barb Dayton makes a really good Cooper from that angle. 3772018 marks half a century as a skydiver. Trained by the late Perry Stevens D-51 in 1968. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
georger 258 #9081 March 21, 2009 My agenda is very different from yours, but found some of your information "fuzzy", regarding the subjects of other writers such as Christiansen. DO you KNOW HOW many SUSPECTS - Florence has "positively" ID'd as Cooper? She was on record as saying Coffelt was Cooper (perhaps you need to read the very rare and basically buried Vegan articles by Byron Brown the son James Brown)and now she Id's Christiansen by simply fingering the photo and saying - "I thing you are on to something". Of course the forum and others will tell you I interpert everything my way and I DO have a one tract mind. I do NOT link Duane in anyway to your theory of subject idea - There is only one suspect Duane may have had knowledge of or contact with and that is Coffelt because of the Lawrence, Ks connection and Coffelt's aka - of ROSS. Well as usual Jo Weber has it all wrong, and doesn't even have the basic facts straight, in her publicity seeking quest: To begin, the socalled "very rare and basically buried Vegan articles by Byron Brown the son James..." arent rare at all. Still available upon request. (2) and it isnt the "Vegan", it is the "Las Vegan Magazine". (3) and Byron Brown and his son were not the authors; the article in question was ABOUT Byron Brown and his claim that one Jack Cofelt was DB Cooper. The article was written by Jack Sheehan (not Byron Brown!). In 2008 Jack Sheehan wrote a short recapitulation of his earlier Las Vegan Magazine article about Brown, which I will attach below in complete form. I am doing this as a public service. Why Im doing it is totally beyond me! ____________________________________________ Jack Sheehan names names as the FBI tries to solve the mystery of D.B. Cooper By Jack Sheehan Tue, Jan 22, 2008 (2 a.m.) I was intrigued last month when the FBI announced it was reopening the investigation into the hijacking of a Northwest Airlines 727 jet in November 1971. Special Agent Larry Carr in Seattle is leading the investigation of the legendary and oft-romanticized D.B. Cooper skyjacking in hope of solving one of the most intriguing mysteries of the past century. Stories have been circulating recently on the Internet and across AP wires suggesting that anyone with information about the crime should come forward. Well, I’m coming forward today, but first I’d like to know, in the interests of my young children’s college educations, how much the reward is. I mean, I’m a self-employed writer with mouths to feed, so how ’bout it? To do my American duty, and perhaps add to the fun of chasing down a mystery that more than likely will never be solved, I give this name to FBI agent Larry Carr: Bryant “Jack” Coffelt. That’s who I believe to be the real D.B. Cooper. Here’s why I think Coffelt is their man: In the early 1980s a handsome young writer in his mid-30s named Byron Brown -- a “separated at birth” clone of actor Dennis Quaid -- approached me with what he said was definitive proof that a man he knew, a former prison buddy of his father’s named Jack Coffelt, was indeed the hijacker. Brown didn’t just present a hunch; he provided me with more than 200 pages of careful research he had compiled over the previous eight years. After dissecting Brown’s findings for several weeks and grilling him repeatedly in an attempt to shoot holes in his findings, I eventually became convinced that his conclusions were valid. We condensed his book-length findings into a 12,000-word, two-part article that ran in October and November 1983 in a magazine I edited called Las Vegan. Subsequently, the Associated Press interviewed Brown and me and ran an international wire story on Brown’s findings, which opened the media floodgates. Over the ensuing several weeks, Brown and I must have done 30 to 50 newspaper, TV and radio interviews from coast to coast. We were even screened by producers of the popular “Phil Donahue Show,” wondering whether we’d be willing to fly to Chicago for an appearance. But as the days passed our information got so much media exposure that Donahue eventually thought our story had “gone stale.” I was included in all these interviews as the editor who bought the story and was willing to stand behind its conclusions, but of course Brown was the one who had to answer all the difficult questions. Brown never once buckled on his findings, was never shown to be careless or unprofessional in his reporting, and made believers of nearly all who interrogated him. Though I’d need all the pages of today’s Sun to include every piece of Brown’s compelling evidence, here are a few of the morsels he presented in his articles: • In 1974, Brown and his father made a trip with Coffelt to the skyjacker’s likely landing spot in the Northwest to look for the backpack with money that Coffelt claimed had been blown from his shoulder grip when he left the aircraft. A beacon light, parts of an old Jeep and residue of parachute cord, all of which Coffelt had described to Brown, were found in the exact locations he had pinpointed on a map before their expedition. • Northwest Airlines stewardess Florence Schaffner, who was handed the ransom note from D.B. Cooper and spent most of the flight seated next to him, had rejected dozens of photos and composite drawings of potential suspects that had been presented to her by the FBI. But when Brown tracked down Schaffner in Hawaii years later and showed her Coffelt’s photos, she gasped and said, “Oh my God! Where did you get those? I never thought I would see that face again! It’s him! My God, it’s him!” • Seattle attorney George LeBissoniere, who sat three seats from Cooper on that fateful night, also positively identified him as the skyjacker from those photos. LeBissoniere then added a curious comment. “I identified those same pictures for the FBI six weeks after the skyjacking,” he said. It was known that Coffelt had been a government informant on several high-profile cases in the years before 1971, and some speculate that, to avoid compromising the work he did for the CIA, his identity as the man known as D.B. Cooper has been kept hidden by the government. So there you have it. Jack Coffelt is your boy. Send my reward money care of the Las Vegas Sun. And while I’m debunking, I’ll give you 5-1 odds that Warren Beatty is the subject of Simon’s hit song. (The only other person who knows for certain is TV producer Dick Ebersol, who bought exclusive rights to the information at a Martha’s Vineyard charity auction in 2003. But he had to sign a confidentiality agreement, so he’s not talking.) Jack Sheehan; Las Vegas Sun http://www.lasvegassun.com/news/2008/jan/22/jack-sheehan-names-names-fbi-tries-solve-mystery-d/ Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
snowmman 3 #9082 March 21, 2009 "Barb Dayton makes a really good Cooper from that angle." I agree the bills must be paid. I would play up the macho-man image of Himmelsbach. In his book he dismissed one suspect just because he was too feminine. I think part of the interesting part of Cooper, is how he messed with people's male image....i.e. he had to be a kook, because macho men like Himmelsbach, and skydivers of the day, and paratroopers, and ... said so. That reminds me: Is this next guy a kook? or no? I was trying to analyze the risk in this plane to plane skydive. The hard part is that the target plane is in a vertical dive, it has a drogue chute to slow it down? So it's descent rate is maybe 110 mph, and the jumper is matching that. Now 110mph is 161 ft/sec, and the jumper is just 10' or so above the prop of the plane. So assuming the plane and jumper can vary their relative descent rates by 10% pretty quickly, that's a 16' vertical relative blip in one second easily.. so one fuckup and you're in the prop...I guess he's got to make the horizontal distance across the prop risk envelope into the cabin quickly. Still, if you did this 30 times, I think you'd end up in the prop at least once? Can't imagine the plane to jumper relative vertical speed, and horizontal, is that controllable over many repetitions. What cracks me up in the video is the classic white middle to upper class parents, acting all concerned, but confident in their son who is well trained. Bullshit! He's just another guy going for it, tweaking the odds, and sure he's trained, and there's a pretty good chance of success. But basically, he's rolling the dice against the physics variations involved, and hoping he can react to any variances. Have people dissected this before? I'm interested in how jumpers perceive the difficulty here. Assume balls=0. I mean once you decide you just wanna do it because you "believe" it can be done, there's no balls involved. The real question is repeatability. Can this be done 50 times without getting the chop, literally? http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GGphGbJool4 I'm not dissing the guy. Heck it's on youtube, so I guess he wants people to watch it. I'm just wondering about it. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
377 22 #9083 March 21, 2009 I don't think it's as risky as it looks. The plane's descent rate with the drogue deployed is pretty steady. You could set up your jumpsuit and weight so that you had to arch pretty hard to match the plane's rate. Then it's easy to de arch a bit to slow down and avoid the prop if need be. The dangerous part is the actual entrance into the plane. If you lost your grip and tumbled out without a lot of surface area presented you probably could fall into the prop. I'd have chosen a plane that had a featherable prop. Why take more risk than you need to? 3772018 marks half a century as a skydiver. Trained by the late Perry Stevens D-51 in 1968. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
skyjack71 0 #9084 March 21, 2009 nothing is messed up - have both editions here at my home and they are written by Byrom Brown himslef. Will get them out another time but they are there are not avallable except thru them. Snow knows how to find them. Too late for me - GO to bed.Copyright 2006, 2007, 2008, 2009, 2010, 2011, 2012 2013, 2014, 2015 by Jo Weber Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
bigway 4 #9085 March 21, 2009 Have we found DB Cooper yet? Does Carr still write in the forums or has he been in another fight and packed up all his toys? .Karnage Krew Gear Store . Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
377 22 #9086 March 21, 2009 Carr is still active. His FBI day job is catching bank robbers, but his professional interest in NORJACK continues. Carr interacts with selected "citizen DBC sleuths" but he no longer posts here, which is a shame. We are the DBC crack ghetto here. You need to move uptown if you want to party with Carr. Have we found DBC? Hell yeah, at least five of them. Bruce thinks there may be even more. 3772018 marks half a century as a skydiver. Trained by the late Perry Stevens D-51 in 1968. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
snowmman 3 #9087 March 21, 2009 QuoteCarr is still active. His FBI day job is catching bank robbers, but his professional interest in NORJACK continues. Carr interacts with selected "citizen DBC sleuths" but he no longer posts here, which is a shame. We are the DBC crack ghetto here. You need to move uptown if you want to party with Carr. Have we found DBC? Hell yeah, at least five of them. Bruce thinks there may be even more. 377 According to the fbi site: http://www.fbi.gov/page2/march09/dbcooper031709.html "Carr discovered the comic book connection on D.B. Cooper Internet forums, where fascination with the case is undiminished. The forums are also where Carr found the “citizen sleuths” who volunteered to help us reinvigorate the case." So there's the implication of multiple Internet forums actively posting. There have been a flurry of one-offs posted recently to various forums as a result of the comic book thing. But I've not seen any posts at other forums for a while. Not since the parachute find last year. Georger is trying to get some momentum going at another site. I think outside of DZ.com, they have a hard time keeping the conversation interesting. Historically they like to debate McCoy=Cooper, Mayfield=Cooper, Duane==Cooper. But they only really discuss names that get tossed into the pot. The team of "citizen sleuths" that's working with the FBI is dissembled from the TV video and fbi site: Tom Kaye partner Carol A. Alan Stone (metallurgist) Brian Ingram There may be others. Tom K. was going to publish a scientific paper shortly, but that may have been scuttled. Supposedly pollen was found on the tie, metal on the money and who knows what else. Money bundles have been tagged and thrown in various rivers, so people can find them. The FBI is looking for someone with air force loadmaster background, possibly interested in comic books. (edit) oh yeah, Tom K is on a mission to validate the data behind the flight path. There are people of the H. sect, who believe in 305 flying all over the place. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
snowmman 3 #9088 March 21, 2009 We've touched on this before, but I'm putting a finer point on this issue here. I've posted a number of things speculating that 305 was visible on Seattle ARTCC radar all the way down past PDX. I started looking thru the transcripts to see the times Seattle ARTCC requested transponder idents from 305. Sluggo's timeline mention of an ident made me wonder about this. -It does appear that Seattle ARTCC radar could track all the way past PDX -a la Nixon tapes, there's a 18 minute ARTCC comm gap at the critical juncture :) background on how this works is at: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Air_traffic_control_radar_beacon_system "The transponder has a small required set of controls and is simple to operate. It has a method to enter the four-digit transponder code, also known as a beacon code or squawk code, and a control to transmit an ident, which is done at the controller's request" "The air traffic controller can request the pilot to ident, and when the identity control is activated, the SPI bit will be added to the reply for about 20 seconds (two to four rotations of the interrogator antenna) thereby highlighting the track on the controllers display." Basically, sequential-in-time ident requests indicate likely visibility on radar, right? Eventually Seattle ARTCC says that the transponder is lost at 8:54 PST From the Seattle ARTCC transcripts (page 70 of 99) ident requests are at: (SEA R5 & R6 are operators at Seattle ARTCC) SEA R5 - 08:13:14 PST ident request SEA R5 - 08:15:52 the altimeter setting that Sluggo highlights is given here No communications with Seattle ARTCC for 18 minutes. This is not atypical? Suggests that the radar was tracking well? There are gaps later on also. SEA R5 - 08:33:46 PST 305 signs off from SEA R5 saying "so long" and SEA R5 acknowledges "Good day sir" This is after telling 305 to contact Seattle Center (assume this is Seattle ARTCC) on 125.8 Mhz. (I guess switching frequencies) SEA R6 - 08:33:55 PST ident request. Note R6 is a new operator. SEA R6 - 08:45:45 PST some comm. SEA R6 - 08:54:53 "Roger sir I lost your transponder" Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
snowmman 3 #9089 March 21, 2009 I said before I was confused that the flight path was apparently determined using both radar and FDR data. In looking at some FAA accident reports (recent) I found that a flight path was estimated, using ATC radar and DFDR data. So then I looked for NTSB info on how they used ATC + DFDR to estimate flight paths. Found something interesting here (I think I referenced this page before) http://www.ntsb.gov/Events/symp_rec/proceedings/authors/grossi.htm ------------------------------------------- "Utilization of ATC Recordings by Accident Investigators The importance of ATC recorded data will be determined by the circumstances surrounding an accident or incident. Accidents or incidents involving very dynamic conditions, such as aerodynamic stall and loss of control, are difficult to evaluate with ATC data alone. ATC data are more significant for less dynamic accidents, such as controlled flight into terrain, or when used in conjunction with FDR and CVR data. The correlation of events common to the ATC recordings and the FDR and CVR recordings can provide a very accurate local time reference. This can become critical because the FDR and CVR are only required to record relative time and the local time reference may vary from one ATC facility to the next. ATC radar and FDR data can be correlated by comparing the altitude time histories whereas ATC communication recordings can be correlated by the radio transmission time histories recorded by the various ATC facilities and the CVR and FDR. In addition to a time reference, ATC-recorded information will also provide ground track reference, which is essential in performance-related accidents. A wind model can be developed when radar flight path data are combined with FDR parameters such as altitude airspeed and heading and airplane acceleration parameters. This is particularly useful in accidents or incidents involving dynamic meteorological conditions such as wind shears or crosswind and turbulence conditions. ATC radar data are particularly useful in evaluating the relative position of aircraft when multiple aircraft are involved. Investigations of mid-air collisions and wake turbulence encounters rely heavily on this information. There are significant accuracy and resolution limitations that must be taken into consideration when using recorded radar data. The accuracy limitations are known and should be factored into the ground track calculations. The sampling intervals of 4.7 to 12 seconds, presents a significant limitation on usefulness of recorded radar data. " ---------------------------------------------------- I've been curious about why we only have flight path data transcribed at one minute intervals on the flight path map . It may be that a human extracted information at that resolution. I think the technology in 1971 had higher resolution. Note they talk about reverse-engineering a wind model, by combining FDR and radar info. Interesting. The wind could have been predicted exactly at each point? Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
snowmman 3 #9090 March 21, 2009 from that same page: (note they should have logged altitude also if they were getting the transponder?) "The most accurate position coordinates recorded by the ARTCC are in latitude and longitude, whereas approach radar records position coordinates as range and azimuth values, and both record the transponder-generated altitude values. Military and private radar facilities can provide similar position time history information." Seems to suggest military-provided data would also be lat, long. This all is good because it eliminates the idea of "errors" due to range/azimuth numbers from a radar installation, which 377 was talking about, way back in the thread. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
skyjack71 0 #9091 March 21, 2009 Quote. This all is good because it eliminates the idea of "errors" due to range/azimuth numbers from a radar installation, which 377 was talking about, way back in the thread. Snowmman: Are you talking about that VOR - I guess that is the ID (not going back to find it)? The radar contraption around Orchards and below Battleground? 377: Could someone rig a contraption using a back brace with metal staves and the battery in the "bomb" to give signals to the wearer of the brace he was near the VOR? Forgive me for not remembering the technical terms - short term memory loss! Duane had this back brace he would not let me throw away - yet, there was NO way it would have fit him during our marriage. I finally threw it away after he died. This brace had lace-up cords to tighten it - like a corset, NOTE: Duane NEVER complained about his back during our marriage. In fact he NEVER ccmplained about pain of any kind. The notes on pain made me remember something else about Duane - he NEVER complained about pain. He was given pain medication when he broke bones, but used little of it. He never complained about much of anything - it was as if he was so grateful for what he had - that there was NOTHING to complain about. If he was angry - he was known to SULK, but NOT complain. I suppose that is something he learned from spending so much time in prison - not to complain. My personal opinion is that complaining would only subject the individual to retailiation by other prisoners and personnel.Copyright 2006, 2007, 2008, 2009, 2010, 2011, 2012 2013, 2014, 2015 by Jo Weber Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
snowmman 3 #9092 March 21, 2009 jo asked "Snowmman: Are you talking about that VOR - I guess that is the ID (not going back to find it)? The radar contraption around Orchards and below Battleground?" No, just exploring issues around how the flight path map we have might have been created, and whether they knew where Flight 305 was that night, or not. other note: I've read other things that said the system ARTCC uses has a different set of radar symbols than the in-close ATC, and that a different symbol pops up if the plane is "off-course". Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
snowmman 3 #9093 March 21, 2009 2003 event Note that Padilla is 50 years old. 6'2", brown hair, brown eyes. and from Pensacola, FL also. Really. Must be the water down there. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/N844AA http://www.iasa.com.au/folders/Security_Issues/727disappears.html best, latest summary here: http://www.charleyproject.org/cases/p/padilla_ben.html fbi seeking info on Padilla in 2004 http://www.thewebfairy.com/911/boeing/padilla_files/PADILLA.HTM Padilla, a United States citizen from Pensacola, Florida, was overseeing rebuilding work on a Boeing 727 airplane at the DeFevereiro International Airport in Angola in 2003. The plane had been there for two years. Padilla had been working there for two months; his duties included supervising the team of mechanics. He was also going to hire a pilot and co-pilot once the plane was in flyable condition. Padilla is a licensed aircraft mechanic, flight engineer, and pilot of small airplanes, but he is not licensed to fly a 727 and has never flown a plane that large. He was going to be the flight engineer when it took to the air. The company that owned the plane was going to repossess it from Air Angola, which had failed to make its lease payments, and fly it to South Africa. Maury Joseph, the president Aerospace Sales & Leasing Co. which owns the plane, visited the site two weeks before Padilla disappeared to see how things were going. He gave Padilla $43,000 to pay holding fees to the airport. Padilla paid the fees and faxed the receipt to Joseph. On May 25, 2003, at approximately 6:00 p.m., the 727 took off without clearance or a flight plan, and has not been seen since. A photograph of a plane similar to the missing one is posted below this case summary. It is described as a 28-year-old 200 series 727 with a tail number of N844AA, and a serial number of 20985, unpainted silver in color with a stripe of blue, white, and blue. The plane was formerly in the American Airlines passenger air fleet, but all of the passenger seats have been removed and replaced with fuel containers. The plane is outfitted to carry diesel fuel and had taken on 14,000 gallons of A-1 jet fuel shortly before it departed. Padilla disappeared at the same time as the plane and is believed to have been on it when it took off. John Mikel Mutantu, another crew member from the Congo, is also believed to have been on the plane. Photographs and vital statistics for Mutantu are unavailable. The plane may have originally been headed in the direction of Burkina Faso. Its last radio contact was to ask for landing permission in the Seychelles Islands, which are in the Indian Ocean east of Africa. The plane never actually attempted to land there. Padilla's brother believes that Padilla did not leave voluntarily and that the plane may have been hijacked by terrorists. He claims that he and Padilla discussed the possibility that this might happen and Padilla said he would crash the plane rather than fly it anywhere against his will. Based on his memory of this conversation, Padilla's brother believes he was either killed or is being held prisoner somewhere. Joseph agrees with this theory; he does not think Padilla stole the plane either. He does not have a history of criminal behavior. It is worth noting, however, that Joseph himself has been convicted of forging documents and defrauding investors by exaggerating the profits of another company he ran. American authorities believe that the plane was stolen as part of a financial scam or possibly a business dispute. Three American agencies, the Federal Bureau of Investigation (FBI), the National Security Agency (NSA) the American Central Intelligence Agency (CIA), are all looking for Padilla, Mutantu, and the plane. England and several African nations are also searching for them. In the summer of 2003 a plane was found in New Guinea and rumors spread that it was the missing 727, but this turned out not to be the case. Padilla and Mutantu's cases remain unsolved; they and the plane are still missing. The circumstances surrounding their disappearances are unclear. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
377 22 #9094 March 21, 2009 Quote 377: Could someone rig a contraption using a back brace with metal staves and the battery in the "bomb" to give signals to the wearer of the brace he was near the VOR? Forgive me for not remembering the technical terms - short term memory loss! Jo, No, I don't think the back brace had any relation to radio gear of any kind. VOR direction data takes a complicated phase detecting circuit to decode and a "plain" VOR ground station (with no DME, distance measuring equipment) will not give range info. The battery described in Cooper's bomb sounds like a 1.5 volt cell which is pretty useless for the kind of VOR proximity "contraption" you envision. A back brace with multiple metal staves would serve no good purpose as a VOR antenna as a VOR receiver would work fine with a small simple whip antenna or even a short piece of wire. Today many cheap aviation walkie talkies have a VOR function which gives you a radial readout indicating the direction to or from the VOR station. These inexpensive units weren't available in 71 as far as I know. Some cheap portable FM radios will actually receive VOR stations at the upper end of the dial, but you get no useful range info, just an audio signal with a voice announcement saying the VOR station name and some Morse code ID too. 3772018 marks half a century as a skydiver. Trained by the late Perry Stevens D-51 in 1968. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
377 22 #9095 March 22, 2009 Wow Snow! If a 727 can vanish what hope do we have a finding perishable jettisoned cargo (Cooper)? Interestingly, a large plane can go down at sea without leaving much of a trace. I cant find it (maybe you can?) but I once read an eyewitness account from some folks who saw a Lockheed Constellation cargo plane come down in a spin in the Caribbean. It hit the sea hard. The observers who were on a sailboat searched the nearby impact area and found only a light oil slick and a few large pieces of butchered beef (the plane was carrying beef cargo). How did ATC radar in 71 get lat lon on plane echoes? Was it just electronically estimated from the position on the scope? As far as I know there was nothing on a domestic NWA 727 in 71 that generated lat lon info. International aircraft had INS gear, but not domestic ones. 3772018 marks half a century as a skydiver. Trained by the late Perry Stevens D-51 in 1968. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
snowmman 3 #9096 March 22, 2009 377 said: "How did ATC radar in 71 get lat lon on plane echoes? Was it just electronically estimated from the position on the scope? As far as I know there was nothing on a domestic NWA 727 in 71 that generated lat lon info. International aircraft had INS gear, but not domestic ones. " It does sound like it's estimated. (see info from a company at bottom of this post). It might be just how the system presented information, like you say. You're right that only altitude and the 4-digit code would have been there in '71, from the plane's transponder. Maybe the web page I was quoting was just referring to modern gear? (don't think so..think it was referring to what data was "presented/stored/logged?) -------------------------------------------------------------- re modern gear: Here's a post talking about how new ADS-B equipment transmits lat/long from planes, but old mode C transponders just did pressure altitude and the 4-digit code. He's talking about this system which is an amateur box that can receive the ADS-B stuff. "The SBS-1 allows you to track ADS-B aircraft on the radar screen and identifies and displays Mode-S equipped aircraft." http://www.kinetic-avionics.co.uk/sbs-1.php from a forum post: "Ground stations send out "interrogation" signals, and the receivers in the aircraft broadcast replies that are picked up by the ground station. This amateur box just picks up those replies. That's why it'll only show you aircraft with ADS-B equipment (that means pretty much only airliners; newer GA aircraft with advanced avionics like a G1000 have Mode S but not ADS-B) -- the "old" Mode C transponders just transmitted pressure altitude and a 4-digit code, so without an additional DF or primary radar scan, you'd have no way of knowing the aircraft's location. The newer ADS-B systems broadcast a lot more information, including the aircraft's latitude/longitude. This thing receives those ADS-B transmissions that were meant for FAA stations, decodes the latitude/longitude/altitude information, and spits it out." ---------------------------------- Hey! here's a company that converts the radar data from the FAA into more understandable data... they say: http://www.atc-radar.com/serv02.htm "Radar Data Analysis A radar target location is determined by the range (distance from the antenna) and azimuth (direction from the antenna). The range and azimuth of a radar target report can be affected many factors. The approach control antenna (TRACON) rotates 360 degrees in approximately 4.6 seconds. Therefore you would expect to see a target report every of a particular aircraft on every sweep of the radar antenna. The enroute radar antenna (ARTCC) rotates approximately once every 11 seconds. The ARTCC computer converts the range and azimuth values to X/Y values and then to Latitude and Longitude locations. This firm has the experience and expertise to convert the computer data list provided by the FAA to an understandable and visual presentation. " "Radar data listings from the FAA can be provided in different formats. There are two basic types of radar facilities. The Air Route Traffic Control Center (ARTCC) provides radar coverage throughout most of the United States, subject to line of sight of the radar antenna. The Terminal Radar Approach Control (TRACON) facility only provides radar coverage within 60 nautical miles of the facilities antenna. TRACON facilities are normally located at major airports. However, not all TRACON's record radar data. The location of the accident/incident and the length of the flight track needed determines the number and type of radar facilities from which recorded the radar data is needed. This firm, through the use of special computer software can provide graphical depictions of the flight track of the aircraft flight. With a full analysis of the radar data, ground speed, direction of flight, and rate of climb/descent can also be determined." Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
snowmman 3 #9097 March 22, 2009 maybe you're mixing two stories 377. (hey I'm looking at lockeed constellation crashes and found a couple of interesting stories) here's one, but no beef in this story, and the plane wasn't lost. oct, 1981 (some incorrectly report it as 1980) crew of 5. 2 rescued. 1 body. pilot/co-pilot never found. cargo. fruits and vegetables. picture of it floating attached. it sank while they were towing it, and is now a popular dive site (sits in 45 feet of water, 100 yards off shore) Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
snowmman 3 #9098 March 22, 2009 ksea (western washington traffic control) http://www.liveatc.net/flisten.php?mount=ksea 119.2 - Departure East 120.4 - Departure West 133.65 - Seattle Final N/S 123.9 - Arrival East 125.6 - Arrival West 119.9 - Seattle Tower ksea tower http://www.liveatc.net/flisten.php?mount=ksea_tw SeaTac Tower: 119.9 (EAST) 120.95 (WEST) ksea misc. http://www.liveatc.net/flisten.php?mount=ksea_misc Seattle Approach: 126.5, 391.9 Seattle Center: 126.6, 343.6 KTCM Tower: 124.8, 125.15, and 259.3 links from http://www.liveatc.net/feedindex.php?type=all#ksea Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
skyjack71 0 #9099 March 22, 2009 Quote No, I don't think the back brace had any relation to radio gear of any kind. Some where along the line - I got the impression one could rig up a wire that would vibrate when passing near that VOR. Maybe Cooper didn't know or care where that VOR was, but Duane knew where it was and pointed it out after we passed it so I never saw it - just what he said, but I didn't understand what he was talking about - so I just let it go. The only thing I understood at that time was that is was some type of radar detection for airplanes. serious questions for the FBI which they don't give a xxxx about. Who built the power lines and the pipelines? When were the lines built? When was that VOR built and who built it and when. IF THE FBI investigates these things and obtains the employment records of Duane L. Weber including ALL alias - and the FBI knows what these alias are and the FBI knows I don't mean John C. Collins. The might find the name of Ed Hurand (Huran, Horand, Horan) there also. Amazing what the FBI might know if they had interviewed the right people in 1996 and 1997 - Amazing that they wait UNTIL 4 of these people are deceased to say Duane Weber was not Cooper per the supposed DNA evidence. You Guys know that my sister city - Alberta, Ala home of The Emerald Coast Skydivers had quiet a shindig last wk. When I lived in the Pensacola area - it was only 35 minutes to Alberta...now I live that far in the opposite direction.Copyright 2006, 2007, 2008, 2009, 2010, 2011, 2012 2013, 2014, 2015 by Jo Weber Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
377 22 #9100 March 22, 2009 QuoteSome where along the line - I got the impression one could rig up a wire that would vibrate when passing near that VOR. Maybe Cooper didn't know or care where that VOR was, but Duane knew where it was and pointed it out after we passed it so I never saw it - just what he said, but I didn't understand what he was talking about - so I just let it go. The only thing I understood at that time was that is was some type of radar detection for airplanes. No Jo, that wire vibrating VOR detector idea is waaaay off base. VOR stations have nothing to do with radar. VORs do not detect airplanes. They broadcast navigational radio signals that are received by planes. VOR stations are visually distinct from other types and are characterized by a radial array of antennas. Take a look. http://images.google.com/images?q=VOR%20station&sourceid=navclient-ff&rlz=1B3GGGL_enUS305US306&um=1&ie=UTF-8&sa=N&hl=en&tab=wi 3772018 marks half a century as a skydiver. Trained by the late Perry Stevens D-51 in 1968. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
