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TomKaye 1
All,
Just so you don't spend any more time on this, the chemical marker we have been looking at on the bills is a post discovery contaminant. We expected to find additional artifacts on Tena that had the same thing, but we didn't. A discussion with an outside source suggested we try testing for a compound not in our normal range. The compound tested off the chart.
At this point I am not sure we even have a paper. The compounds identity I am holding back until I talk with everyone because many of you will want to roast us for it. When you act as responsible scientists and check all the possibilities, this can happen.
So at this point in time, no chemical ID, no story and this is not BS.
Tom
Just so you don't spend any more time on this, the chemical marker we have been looking at on the bills is a post discovery contaminant. We expected to find additional artifacts on Tena that had the same thing, but we didn't. A discussion with an outside source suggested we try testing for a compound not in our normal range. The compound tested off the chart.
At this point I am not sure we even have a paper. The compounds identity I am holding back until I talk with everyone because many of you will want to roast us for it. When you act as responsible scientists and check all the possibilities, this can happen.
So at this point in time, no chemical ID, no story and this is not BS.
Tom
Snwmman I know you are fantastic with computers. So Im would like you too check something out for me in either dec 71 or jan or feb of 72 there was a high rain fall for about 2 days this caused the the streams and rivers to flood for a short period of time I had this info once I got it from the Vancouver Library. If you can will you access this info for me. If you can't I will get it on the 25th when I go back to washougal. Thank You Jerry
snowmman 3
Jo said
"Snow I cut some of the post out just to keep it a bit more brief. Did you know that long term mole on paper and cloth becomes holes?
Something that is stored in a damp place will eventually rot and that was the process going on with the money."
Yes, and everything in the Northwest is covered with moss in the winter.
The question is: where did this mold go to? Did the Ingrams remove it all before the FBI got it and photo'ed it?
Did it die after eating the holes?
Is there a no-trace form of currency-eating-mold?
Yes mold could have done it. Or any plant life.
But what happened to evidence of the plant life, in the photos?
Plants are cool because you can see them. Even mold.
"Snow I cut some of the post out just to keep it a bit more brief. Did you know that long term mole on paper and cloth becomes holes?
Something that is stored in a damp place will eventually rot and that was the process going on with the money."
Yes, and everything in the Northwest is covered with moss in the winter.
The question is: where did this mold go to? Did the Ingrams remove it all before the FBI got it and photo'ed it?
Did it die after eating the holes?
Is there a no-trace form of currency-eating-mold?
Yes mold could have done it. Or any plant life.
But what happened to evidence of the plant life, in the photos?
Plants are cool because you can see them. Even mold.
What is that weird critter - land or water critter?
Copyright 2006, 2007, 2008, 2009, 2010, 2011, 2012 2013, 2014, 2015 by Jo Weber
snowmman 3
QuoteSnwmman I know you are fantastic with computers. So Im would like you too check something out for me in either dec 71 or jan or feb of 72 there was a high rain fall for about 2 days this caused the the streams and rivers to flood for a short period of time I had this info once I got it from the Vancouver Library. If you can will you access this info for me. If you can't I will get it on the 25th when I go back to washougal. Thank You Jerry
We've posted on rainfall/floods during the relevant years a lot.
I'll repost some of my posts (georger had some too) and see what you think.
-------------------
interesting document here:
http://www.usace.army.mil/...s/misc/un24/c-15.pdf
page 9 describes Portland District floods and flood control.
Heavy winter rains in '71 and '72
'72 floods in northwest/west Oregon.
'72 flood prevention effort. Temporary sand plug at the lower end of the Columbia Slough in Portland, to prevent flooding of North Portland neighborhoods.
100,000 cubic yards of sand spread over the railroad embankment west of Delta Park golf course. They say these two things helped prevent flooding.
page 10 Jan '74 had flooding
Nov,Dec '77 had flooding, as you say.
So: the Columbia may have had high water levels in '72 and '74 also.
Georger there is a worm that live's in all the streams and river's in the north west there called pary winkle's by the locals they make a cocoon and attach themselves to rocks sticks in the water. Believe it or not they make fantastic fishing bait there better than worms. People up in this area will buy worms to fish with. In reality all they have to do is grab one of these cocoons pull the worm out and use it or go, no more than 2 ft from the shore find some loose dirt or a rock and they will find a worm. and use it for bait. So it is possible that this could have played a factor in the deteriation of the money. Key word being only possible.
1969912 0
QuoteWould someone tell me WHY this study by the "Dream Team" was done at all if they didn't take EVERYTHING ABOUT THE MONEY INTO CONSIDERATION.
(talking about the to-be-peer-reviewed paper here)
What's important is the fact that we have no idea what they're studying. I really doubt that the study is an attempt to solve the Cooper case. Hope not, anyway. The study is likely very limited in scope. If not, then the author(s) might look xxxxxx. Enough for now.
Don't sweat this thing Jo.
"Once we got to the point where twenty/something's needed a place on the corner that changed the oil in their cars we were doomed . . ."
-NickDG
snowmman 3
there are some interesting geologic maps from the state groups in OR and WA.
OR is doing a big program to make all their data work on an interactive map,which looks really cool. But they're not getting to the Portland area till this year. There are other maps available.
There are big iron deposits by Portland area, for instance.
I've not looked at WA stuff yet, but was wondering if there is anything geologic that's useful.
I'm thinking not. I was intriqued by the iron just west of the Columbia by Portland. Was wondering if Columbia bottom could have high iron content there.
OR is doing a big program to make all their data work on an interactive map,which looks really cool. But they're not getting to the Portland area till this year. There are other maps available.
There are big iron deposits by Portland area, for instance.
I've not looked at WA stuff yet, but was wondering if there is anything geologic that's useful.
I'm thinking not. I was intriqued by the iron just west of the Columbia by Portland. Was wondering if Columbia bottom could have high iron content there.
Yes it did have High high water levels in that time frame. I do have the data but it is at my other place in Forks Wa, My home there is a 550mi drive from here in Baker City Oregon and a 240 mi drive from Vancouver Wa. so it would be cost effective for your assistance in this mater. The rivers in this area rise and drop very rapidly so alot of the times flood stage status is not registered and the only way you can determan high water levels is by rain fall on a daily or 2 day level then you add in the snow melt to the water run off which raises the level even higher These factors causes high water stages and very short periods of flooding only lasting a couple of hours at any given point. As we all know you can have high water at one point and the water level drop where your at but down stream a few miles the water level can increase and the current move even faster. All these factors is what moves logs and other debris that would not normally be disturbed.Go figure. The power and mystfying effect of Mother Nature.
snowmman 3
QuoteQuoteWould someone tell me WHY this study by the "Dream Team" was done at all if they didn't take EVERYTHING ABOUT THE MONEY INTO CONSIDERATION.
(talking about the to-be-peer-reviewed paper here)
What's important is the fact that we have no idea what they're studying. I really doubt that the study is an attempt to solve the Cooper case. Hope not, anyway. The study is likely very limited in scope. If not, then the author(s) might look xxxxxx. Enough for now.
Don't sweat this thing Jo.
I just want the clay layer report and all those color photos I saw of the money dig on TV.
If we can validate the clay layer science from 1980, that would be huge. We know they did that science.
I think we also know they did some science on the money itself. There must be another report. (not just a geologist offering opinions on money decomposition)
And let's validate the flight path. Regardless of what Tom said about the money, he was going after the flight path also, since he asked about the flight recorder.
We may have to do the night jump from helis down air shafts on the FBI building instead. I've done the research: no alarms in the ventilation shafts.
They actually share their building with other offices, from what I can tell? Maybe we need to open a fake office in the building.
Why not just review the science from 1980 first? Why do we need new science before we understand the old science?
Safe told us "Believe and you shall see the light"
I want to believe.
Duane told us "And it shall die with me, and ye shall have peace"
snowmman 3
Jerry,
georger posted daily data from the Camas area I believe, starting in 1974.
we were talking about surges then.
so yeah, you're right, there are these micro surges from rain or snowmelt.
Georger has done more work in this area. He's got some yearly graphs, and might remember the years more. He'll respond.
I'm not sure where you're going with it though, Jerry.
What would it mean? We kind of went thru stuff like that, but it didn't make us think anything dramatic.
If it did or didn't happen, why would it matter (in those particular years)
georger posted daily data from the Camas area I believe, starting in 1974.
we were talking about surges then.
so yeah, you're right, there are these micro surges from rain or snowmelt.
Georger has done more work in this area. He's got some yearly graphs, and might remember the years more. He'll respond.
I'm not sure where you're going with it though, Jerry.
What would it mean? We kind of went thru stuff like that, but it didn't make us think anything dramatic.
If it did or didn't happen, why would it matter (in those particular years)
georger 268
QuoteGeorger there is a worm that live's in all the streams and river's in the north west there called pary winkle's by the locals they make a cocoon and attach themselves to rocks sticks in the water. Believe it or not they make fantastic fishing bait there better than worms. People up in this area will buy worms to fish with. In reality all they have to do is grab one of these cocoons pull the worm out and use it or go, no more than 2 ft from the shore find some loose dirt or a rock and they will find a worm. and use it for bait. So it is possible that this could have played a factor in the deteriation of the money. Key word being only possible.
got it -
Georger- Vat! You rootin' for da Nedderelanz basaboll team, too!
You rock!
You rock!
QuoteQuoteGeorger mumbled:
"ja boot, vas das Coopernik hapt dos nicotene stains
onder his undt fingerz, or vas hist fingerz free from
nicotene blemish@!? Ja? Makes big difference in
psychotropic gestalt, ja?"
This is pretty unreliable I guess, but on page 146 of "The Real McCoy" Agent Jim Theisen from the SLC FBI office is quoted saying:
"Mucklow noticed the first two fingers on his bare right hand. Said they had dark yellow stains"
so, he was a chain smoker., nervous internalising type, calm exterior, inner tourmoil depressive
personality disorder near the end of his rope.
Decided it was worth the risk. So he did target
the flight. Planned ahead. Saw an opportunity.
No narcissist. Desperate.
Might as well draw up a profile of half the people
working in WA at the time.
Why do journalists always think they have found something new? Guess its the salesman in them.
Georger, remember, half the people in WA have someone waiting for them when they come home, or call the cops if they don't. DB didn't have that.
georger 268
nicht, Orange1 ist!QuoteGeorger- Vat! You rootin' for da Nedderelanz basaboll team, too!
You rock!
QuoteThis whole recent behavior by folks really fails the sniff test for me.
Tom Kaye has betrayed his hand, because publishing this paper is really, really important to him for some reason. The peer review his paper gets before publication will in no way be appropriate peers. They'll review the stuff in the paper, but they will in no way be informed as to what's not in the paper.
They can't know, since there are no DBC degrees or training programs that educate.
Carr seems to have betrayed his hand, because there's obviously more info that could be released, but isn't being released.
Sounds like either a continuation of the stage show, to try to flush out Cooper clues/tips, or an attempt to control information to try to "prove" something about what happened to Cooper.
I'm reminded of a shaggy dog story.
Also: Jo. I understand now why you're crazed. You were driven insane as part of the DBC experiment. While I think Duane had nothing to do with it, I think you're responding to the overall craziness of the whole thing. It's like going into an epileptic fit watching certain cartoons on TV.
(edit) Oh ps. I'm not digging at Jo. "crazed/insane" is just a recognition of her focus/drive etc. Not necessarily negative.
I concur.
snowmman 3
"Georger, remember, half the people in WA have someone waiting for them when they come home, or call the cops if they don't. DB didn't have that."
I posted some data from the 1970 census, for OR and WA, back in the thread. Good for estimating the total # of possible Coopers (a bound) if you believe he lived in OR or WA. (they had a breakout by race and age groups). I think I had estimates based on married or not, also.
They were just getting going with computerizing drivers licenses. I forget the exact year.
I posted some data from the 1970 census, for OR and WA, back in the thread. Good for estimating the total # of possible Coopers (a bound) if you believe he lived in OR or WA. (they had a breakout by race and age groups). I think I had estimates based on married or not, also.
They were just getting going with computerizing drivers licenses. I forget the exact year.
georger 268
QuoteYes it did have High high water levels in that time frame. I do have the data but it is at my other place in Forks Wa, My home there is a 550mi drive from here in Baker City Oregon and a 240 mi drive from Vancouver Wa. so it would be cost effective for your assistance in this mater. The rivers in this area rise and drop very rapidly so alot of the times flood stage status is not registered and the only way you can determan high water levels is by rain fall on a daily or 2 day level then you add in the snow melt to the water run off which raises the level even higher These factors causes high water stages and very short periods of flooding only lasting a couple of hours at any given point. As we all know you can have high water at one point and the water level drop where your at but down stream a few miles the water level can increase and the current move even faster. All these factors is what moves logs and other debris that would not normally be disturbed.Go figure. The power and mystfying effect of Mother Nature.
I posted this before here ... chart is for Willamette
but for a station near PDX and Will-Col confluence
so applies to Columbia also -
Explain to these folks how the Washougal rises
and falls, in little time, surge flooding...
that might be helpful?
I have the pdf Snow is talking about also others.
Must dig them out... but will now.
Oh... Snow had some evry good things months ago..
QuoteI have been trying to read up on cellulose digesting animals, but my lack of life sciences schooling is badly impairing my ability to understand what I read.
Microorganisms can digest cellulose, but it is not localized in narrow bordered holes from what I can see. I seem to be finding that the bore holes we see in wood, money etc are made by more complex animals, often worms or the larvae of insects.
Marine worms bore holes as they tunnel into and eat cellulose (wood) and so do many other animals. Certain marine worms will almost never cross hard grain boundaries and only tunnel along the grain eating the soft wood between the hard parts. The currency is fairly isotropic so we cant use that info to identify the animal.
I'll bet there are specialists who could take one look at those money photos and narrow down the list of suspect boring animals to just a few if they knew the area. Who are they and how can we get them intererested? Tom is probably on this already but since he has entered the cone of silence on his work, we don't know for sure.
Surely it wont compromise his paper to answer, so I will ask:
Tom, do you have any help from specialists on analysing the holes?
Ex wives eat money, but mine could never make holes that small with her mouth. Take her off the suspect list.
377
Just a thought. Some species of wasps have "tongues" proboscus, (whatever), that are up to one-inch long. They are present in the PNW and feed on larvae and such. Here in WA they bore into the wooden tubes that Mason bees plant their eggs. I've seen the holes. They are the diameter of a very fine needle and can penetrate the hardest of woods.
I don't know if these long-tongued wasps scavenge in the earth, but over half the bees and wasps in WA live in the earth, so.....
I will quote you here Kaye " I figured they were either from roots or some small critters".
The next quote from Kaye "Its not part of the focus of our research and hence it will not be in the paper".
Would someone tell me WHY this study by the "Dream Team" was done at all if they didn't take EVERYTHING ABOUT THE MONEY INTO CONSIDERATION.
WHY even bother to have examined the money at all and have spent all of that money for this expedition? The above statements by Tom Kaye seems ludicrous if you think about it in light of Tom Kaye's own statements.
What was this "Dream Team" in Vancouver there for?
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