DB Cooper

[snowmman 3]

I found the reference.

In "The Real McCoy" page 157, when they're talking about the Cooper hijack. (remember the co-author was FBI agent in Salt Lake City: Calame. Calame did the research. The other guy did the writing)


verbatim:

Cooper jumped with an NB-8 military chute which had a twenty-eight-foot canopy.

[377 22]

That eBay one looks Navy to me because of the way the chest connect webbing and snap is arranged, two V's on either side instead of a single straight across strap like the USAF rigs have. Nitro will know, I am just guessing.

That eBay rig is touted as new. Did they come new in the box with those crude numbers put on the back with a felt marker? Nitro?

That eBay rig is sure pricey. I sold an identical one for $150 a couple of years ago and was glad to get it. It was used in the Navy A3D Whales that Hughes Aircraft had borrowed for radar tests and never returned. They got rid of bailout chutes when they reached a certain age regardless of condition. The Navy A3D ("all three dead") had no ejection seats, just a single tunnel slide out the bottom. Can you imagine trying to escape from a spinning plane that way? Hence the nickname.

377

2018 marks half a century as a skydiver. Trained by the late Perry Stevens D-51 in 1968.

[snowmman 3]

This whole recent behavior by folks really fails the sniff test for me.

Tom Kaye has betrayed his hand, because publishing this paper is really, really important to him for some reason. The peer review his paper gets before publication will in no way be appropriate peers. They'll review the stuff in the paper, but they will in no way be informed as to what's not in the paper.

They can't know, since there are no DBC degrees or training programs that educate.

Carr seems to have betrayed his hand, because there's obviously more info that could be released, but isn't being released.

Sounds like either a continuation of the stage show, to try to flush out Cooper clues/tips, or an attempt to control information to try to "prove" something about what happened to Cooper.

I'm reminded of a shaggy dog story.

Also: Jo. I understand now why you're crazed. You were driven insane as part of the DBC experiment. While I think Duane had nothing to do with it, I think you're responding to the overall craziness of the whole thing. It's like going into an epileptic fit watching certain cartoons on TV.

(edit) Oh ps. I'm not digging at Jo. "crazed/insane" is just a recognition of her focus/drive etc. Not necessarily negative.

[snowmman 3]

I'm musing about how all the facts seem to point to a human deposit of the money, although there is no motive that would seem to support that.

Here's a new train of thought.

By assuming natural transport, we assume the only contributors to decomposition are sun, water, and mechanical action due to Columbia River movement. (edit) and microbial decomposition, or decomposition at a molecular level.

I was wondering again if there could have been a chemical accelerant to the decomposition. I think Georger has jokingly mused about cow urea. We've talked about nitrates/nitrites (from fertilizers etc) in the dredge spoils.

So our theories about rate of decomposition could be way off.
I'm publishing a paper about this in six weeks. I hope to publish before Tom. Science is a cutthroat business, publish or perish.

But let's focus away from the rounded edges.

Let's focus on the little holes in the money.

It got me thinking "Should we have found anything growing on the money?"

We didn't see anything growing on the money. Maybe burial prevents that.

But we saw holes.

These could be from ants, termites etc. I'm guessing more due to insects, than decomposition.

We need a WA area termite/ant/insect expert. I don't think worm, but maybe there are some small varieties.

See: there's this belief that Tom Kay is somehow the perfect expert. Safe has promoted that view, that Tom Kaye's data/theories will be inherently "better" than "armchair logic".

I don't think we have the right experts yet.

(edit) I have to organize all my Cooper Bill photos I've accumulated, but I attached one good one from the Ingram auctions to serve as a possible "insect" example.

Georger: note it's the pattern of the small holes, as well as the size, that suggests insect rather than the other decomposition modes we've discussed.

[377 22]

What journal will Tom be publishing in? I'd like to see the flavor of already published papers.

Why does anyone take don't talk or don't publish orders from the FBI? They can't order you to do anything other than: "step back folks, this is a crime scene, please move on now..."

Oh, forget it. That is just my late Dad's anti-authoritarian genes talking. He was a commercial fisherman. One of the reasons he liked working at sea was the lack of stupid rules and police. Back then the Coast Guard mainly rescued people and weren't an aquatic SWAT team. He'd turn over in his grave (which is an illegal one at the Farallon Islands) if he knew how overregulated things are now in his trade.

http://tiny.cc/Ge0oj

377

2018 marks half a century as a skydiver. Trained by the late Perry Stevens D-51 in 1968.

[Orange1 0]

I don't think there is such a thing as "the perfect expert" in anything. But for now, I am willing to give Tom Kaye the benefit of the doubt. He's clearly quite serious about his investigation. The fact that it is to be submitted to a peer-reviewed journal means that he is far less likely to be able to get away with sloppy methodology, invalid conclusions etc - i.e. the work will probably be a lot more reliable than just about all the other theories that we've seen thrown up around the case. I for one am happy to sit back, and wait and see, and hope it is going to be something that moves the case forward.

I know you're impatient, Snow, but my take is -- the world has waited nearly 28 years for a solution to the case, what difference is a few months more?? You spend a lot of time wondering about the science, well here is a chance at least for someone to do good science. Personally, I think it is a bonus that no "DBC peer" comes anywhere near that paper -- we've seen evidence on this forum of how preconceived ideas taint people's perceptions of the evidence.

Once you see it, if you don't like it, then criticize.

Skydiving: wasting fossil fuels just for fun.

[Orange1 0]

Quote

Oh, forget it. That is just my late Dad's anti-authoritarian genes talking. He was a commercial fisherman. One of the reasons he liked working at sea was the lack of stupid rules and police. Back then the Coast Guard mainly rescued people and weren't an aquatic SWAT team. He'd turn over in his grave (which is an illegal one at the Farallon Islands) if he knew how overregulated things are now in his trade.

Gonna read your page later but I had to smile cos I can imagine one of your kids looking at skydiving in a decade or two and saying

Oh, forget it. That is just 377's anti-authoritarian genes talking. He was a skydiver. One of the reasons he liked jumping was the lack of stupid rules and enforcers. Back then the USPA mainly licensed people and weren't an aviation enforcer of hundreds of BSRs. He'd ...... if he knew how overregulated things are now in his sport.

Skydiving: wasting fossil fuels just for fun.

[snowmman 3]

I didn't realize how to deal with Moire patterns due to scans of halftone images when I did the last scan.

Looking at the image I just posted, and the book, I realized I could get a better image (within the 300k limit here)

I just rescanned it, and got rid of the Moire effects. Better picture.
I included the caption so you can see it's from the Norjak book.
page 124

attached.

(edit) deleted my prior post, this was the text in that post:
I'm reposting this just as a reminder of the apparent (to me) insect holes.
The quality of this photo isn't as high as the recent auction photos, but it reminds you that the holes where there at discovery in 1980.

[377 22]

Quote

Quote

Oh, forget it. That is just my late Dad's anti-authoritarian genes talking. He was a commercial fisherman. One of the reasons he liked working at sea was the lack of stupid rules and police. Back then the Coast Guard mainly rescued people and weren't an aquatic SWAT team. He'd turn over in his grave (which is an illegal one at the Farallon Islands) if he knew how overregulated things are now in his trade.

Gonna read your page later but I had to smile cos I can imagine one of your kids looking at skydiving in a decade or two and saying

Oh, forget it. That is just 377's anti-authoritarian genes talking. He was a skydiver. One of the reasons he liked jumping was the lack of stupid rules and enforcers. Back then the USPA mainly licensed people and weren't an aviation enforcer of hundreds of BSRs. He'd ...... if he knew how overregulated things are now in his sport.

I love the folks on this forum. Smart, funny and irreverant. My kind of people. Yes, even those who occasionally irritate me. I am sure I irritate them too so it all balances out.

Skydiving really is one of the last bastions where we are in in highly regulated activity (aviation) yet somehow escape the massive financial and emotional burdens of federal regulation.

The feds dictate a few things about my reserve, but that's about it. Everything else in jumping is amazingly free of regulatory BS. Without federal rules on reserves, riggers couldn't make a living. Having survived two cutaways, I deeply respect riggers. I literally owe my life to their care and skill. I look at them as parachute surgeons, they just get paid a lot less.

377

2018 marks half a century as a skydiver. Trained by the late Perry Stevens D-51 in 1968.

[377 22]

Quote

I didn't realize how to deal with Moire patterns due to scans of halftone images when I did the last scan.

Looking at the image I just posted, and the book, I realized I could get a better image (within the 300k limit here)

I just rescanned it, and got rid of the Moire effects. Better picture.
I included the caption so you can see it's from the Norjak book.
page 124

attached.

(edit) deleted my prior post, this was the text in that post:
I'm reposting this just as a reminder of the apparent (to me) insect holes.
The quality of this photo isn't as high as the recent auction photos, but it reminds you that the holes where there at discovery in 1980.

Snow,

When you figure out how to eliminate Moire patterns in scanned images would you please design a chip to do that and put it in my HDTV? I know you actually could do that chip design if you cared to. Trust me on this one folks.

Has Tom opined on the holes in the money? Were they made by aquatic beasties or their land cousins or can we tell?

377

2018 marks half a century as a skydiver. Trained by the late Perry Stevens D-51 in 1968.

[snowmman 3]

Beautiful writing on the fishing boat stuff 377.
(edit) actually now that I'm reading the whole thing..on your whole life. Really powerful stuff.

Nothing beats real experience for driving good writing.

Reading it makes me feel it.

Where's the psychoanalysis though? :)

377's link again:
http://boeing377.googlepages.com/fishingamontereyclipperoutofsfsfisherman

[SKYWHUFFO 1]

Snow,

A few rambles back you aske where the metal Info came from. I found this.




New theories in D.B. Cooper tale

06:04 PM PST on Friday, March 6, 2009

By JIM FORMAN, KING 5 Staff

SEATTLE -- Huddled around rarely seen evidence spread out across the briefing room of the Seattle F.B.I. office, researchers say a new theory is emerging in the D.B. Cooper case.


Scientists test Cooper mystery clues

Cooper mystery science

Help comes in Cooper case

New evidence aids Cooper hunt
"Well in D.B. Cooper, there was a fairly recent surprise," said Chicago metallurgist Alan Stone. Stone is referring to bits of metal found on some of the physical evidence from the 1971 hijacking, the only unsolved crime of its kind in U.S. history.

Stone is one of several researchers taking a new look at this old case, and debunking some old myths surrounding the case. Stone can’t get too specific, because he is part of an active investigation. But he will say, "It’s a surprise to find (the metal) where it is."

Rubber bands hold key clues
For decades it has been thought that Cooper, who parachuted out of the back of a Northwest Orient let with $200,000 in ransom money, was separated from his haul during the plunge to earth. Why?

Background
Cooper case opened to public

DB Cooper search

DB Cooper money auctioned

Is this DB Cooper?

FBI releases new info
Years after the hijacking, some hikers found some of the loot. At the time experts told the F.B.I. that the money most likely floated down the Columbia River, putting Cooper’s drop zone miles away.

Enter the rubber bands. "We were able to find the original manufacturer of the rubber bands," explains Tom Kaye of Seattle’s Burke Museum. A paleontologist by trade, Kaye says there is no way the rubber bands, which held the money together, could have been in the water long enough to wind downstream.

"They told us that rubber bands only last in the wild 3 or 4 months at the most," Burke adds. "So this is in conflict with the idea that they would be rolling down the river for seven years," begging the question was the money there all along? Burke’s answer a simple, "maybe."

Steady progress, but no a-ha moment
The scientists have been given unprecedented access to mountains of evidence. It is a new look at this old case, which many including the F.B.I. are following closely. The "a- ha" moment says Burke would be finding D.B. Cooper, or his remains, but that everyone agrees is unlikely.

Still, Burke presses on: "Are we getting closer to D.B.? I think we are, time will tell."

Indeed.

[snowmman 3]

skywhuffo said "A few rambles back you aske where the metal Info came from. I found this."

Yeah, we've digested everything from the videos and text that has been put up at the news sites.

You can see the videos of Alan Stone here. It's interesting to ponder how Alan Stone has digested information. Why did Alan Stone say "it's a surprise to find it where it is"? I mean finding metal anywhere would be a surprise. Is he talking about "where it is" on the money, or "where it is" in terms of the money find location??

How much has Alan Stone read/seen about the Cooper case?

Unclear.

The video also includes Tom Kaye agreeing "Maybe" when asked if the money may have been there the whole time. That seems inconsistent with the hidden Clay Report, but maybe Tom Kaye hasn't seen that report. It sounds like he hasn't. (Or disagrees with it). Or maybe Tom won't be able to resolve down to one theory..i.e. just present data.


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kFkhUbs4bfA&feature=channel_page

(edit) I would note with all this talk of keeping info quiet till publication, that there's only a couple of us here going on tv and talking about it (while protesting on DZ.com to not talk about it)!

Funny! Who's insane? Who's sane? Can't tell! Duane is God!

[377 22]

Quote

edit) I would note with all this talk of keeping info quiet till publication, that there's only a couple of us here going on tv and talking about it (while protesting on DZ.com to not talk about it)!

I recall a saying about a lawyer who always acted like every detail of a case was hush hush super confidential. This lawyer spilled his guts to reporters who asked the same questions he rebuffed from his pals.

One pal summed it up perfectly:

"he has never seen a microphone or a camera that he didn't like."

377

2018 marks half a century as a skydiver. Trained by the late Perry Stevens D-51 in 1968.

[snowmman 3]

For people who are not aware of the scam known as "Scientific Publication", I'll provide some detail.

There's a lot of money flow. Library subscriptions are a main contributor.

Nowadays it's moved so that the articles are sold online. Paid subscriptions per article, or yearly "get everything".

The scientists that publish the papers, are under pressure to not make the papers available at personal websites post-publication. This is because the free access, takes away money from the "scientific publications"

The scientists buy into this, because getting published in a "name-brand" publication enhances their status. You need a certain number of these kinds of publications etc. to get tenure.

Basically quantity, and "quality" of the magazine count for a lot.

The main money flow has to do with keeping this idea of "esteemed science" so that reputations can be managed and "dumb guys" excluded, and "smart guys" branded.

But in reality, there's an exclusive club thing going on.

A funny prank, was that someone created an online paper generator that was buzzword complete, slightly random. It generated papers (computer science) that were accepted at conferences.

The idea of "peer review" can be pretty weak. The guys who do the review, use the brag of saying they are reviewers to enhance their reputation also.

In short, it will be interesting after publication, as to whether we can even see Tom's paper without paying.

It's a big scam.

Printing online makes publication free now. The only value-add of these "scientific publications" is image enhancement...it goes all the way back to parents being convinced certain schools have better teachers than others, and that a certain level of tuition is "worth it".

These types of crimes are legal though.

[1969912 0]

I wonder if the holes all line up in bills that came from the same stack? Thinking of those wormholes (or whateverholes) in driftwood.

"Once we got to the point where twenty/something's needed a place on the corner that changed the oil in their cars we were doomed . . ."
-NickDG

[snowmman 3]

Quote

I wonder if the holes all line up in bills that came from the same stack? Thinking of those wormholes (or whateverholes) in driftwood.

Yes. My faint memory is that I saw some that made me think they appeared to line up.

Note that it looks like there is one main bundle that had holes. They don't all have holes.

I'll have to go back and find pics of individual bills that have holes that seem to line up, but they may not exist. Remember we've not seen a lot of individual bills.

It is possible to guess at hole depth when you stare at a lot of the bundle photos. It doesn't appear to be solely on the surface bill.

I can't understand a mechanism other than insects that would lead to that kind of decomposition. But like I said, an expert might give us good info.

[snowmman 3]

For everyone else who's been researching insects which eat wood and paper in the Portland/Vancouver area, obviously the question is: at what depth of soil do these insects live, and what rate do they eat/destroy? And during what seasons of the year?

Good scientific questions.

(edit) and which types prefer dry materials, and which types prefer wet materials.

[snowmman 3]

If indeed the holes are insect related,
then why don't all of the bundles have similar rates of holes?

They seem to have similar rates of edge decomposition.

Any asymmetry is interesting. I pointed out the "black bill" asymmetry already.

My group's paper has that title actually: "Asymmetries in Product Placement: The D.B. Cooper Event"

(edit) Looking closer at it (my Norjak photo), it does appear there is a bias to the holes being on the left of the face side.

We've heard explanations of the money find that include the money being stacked or smooshed together. (unclear of exact find description)

If they were stacked, it might explain asymmetry due to insects
(outside faces/edges most exposed...edges all exposed to water/sun/?-related effects)

[snowmman 3]

I posted this a while back. I think it was LA Times or something that had the photo.

This is a pic of the found Fosset money and ID cards, which led to the plane find.

Interestingly that one of the bills is brown/dirty. But you can see the money tearing/decomposing already.

The money was loose, at alititude, snow also.
Wasn't out that long though? I forget the exact amount of time.

reposting the GE overlay that shows the plastic find, the Shirt find, the ID find and the aircraft locations, in case people didn't see it at the time. (the Fosset crash site)

[377 22]

I have been trying to read up on cellulose digesting animals, but my lack of life sciences schooling is badly impairing my ability to understand what I read.

Microorganisms can digest cellulose, but it is not localized in narrow bordered holes from what I can see. I seem to be finding that the bore holes we see in wood, money etc are made by more complex animals, often worms or the larvae of insects.

Marine worms bore holes as they tunnel into and eat cellulose (wood) and so do many other animals. Certain marine worms will almost never cross hard grain boundaries and only tunnel along the grain eating the soft wood between the hard parts. The currency is fairly isotropic so we cant use that info to identify the animal.

I'll bet there are specialists who could take one look at those money photos and narrow down the list of suspect boring animals to just a few if they knew the area. Who are they and how can we get them intererested? Tom is probably on this already but since he has entered the cone of silence on his work, we don't know for sure.

Surely it wont compromise his paper to answer, so I will ask:

Tom, do you have any help from specialists on analysing the holes?

Ex wives eat money, but mine could never make holes that small with her mouth. Take her off the suspect list.

377

2018 marks half a century as a skydiver. Trained by the late Perry Stevens D-51 in 1968.

[Sluggo_Monster 0]

All,


I think I can explain the holes in the money.

+++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++

Opening

DB is walking out of the woods. He encounters two locals.

First Local says: “Boy, what you doing up here on this river?”

Banjo Music in the background.

Second local says; “Boy, whatcha got in that lil’ ol purse you carrin’ on yor waist?”

DB says; “Nothing sir, I’m just going down river to Aintry.”

First local says: “Aintry… Aintry… This here riv’r don’ go to Aintry. You done made a wrong turn.”

Banjo music gets louder.

Second local raises his shotgun, and fires point blank at DB. DB falls over and is dead.

First local says; “Now, whad ya do thet fur, I was horny and he sur wus purdy, lookit that purdy mouth. Lookit that olive skin.”

Second local says: I want to see what he got in that ther bag.

The locals discover the money in the reserve chute container.

The second local says; “Looky here, these three bundles done got holes in um frum my shotgun!”

The banjo music is even louder and faster.

First local says; "We’ll dig a hole and hide those afore we git bac to tha car."

Fade to black.

+++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++




Sluggo_Monster

Web Page
Blog
NORJAK Forum

[snowmman 3]

funny sluggo.

yeah, when I was thinking about counterfeiting some Cooper bills, I was thinking shotgun pellets might help, or an icepick.

Hey: another thought: if the face and edges were most exposed to insect attack, how come we don't know if the edge decomposition is due to insects, and the combination of brittleness and eating, caused stuff to break off to get the rounded effect.

How do you rule out insects eating from the outside in, and creating breakage points?

I guess you either say "we didn't analyze for insects" or "insects were not involved" or "insects were involved"

Or you say nothing and hope no one brings it up?

[skyjack71 0]

Quote

That we have someone who is a reasonable scientist, and believes he's discovered something that gives him some strong views on what happened at Tena Bar.
And the FBI doesn't want him to disclose some archive material till he publishes his paper.

(crime waits for scientific paper publishing deadlines?)

It all doesn't make sense.

How does Tom know he's correct?
He doesn't even think there's a Tina Bar Clay Report???

Snowmman:

How can anyone do a scientific paper without ALL of the data? That just doesn't sound too smart to me, but then nothing the FBI had done on this case so far is.

Considering the time of the information shut-down with Tom Kaye and the legal implications of things that have transpired over the past 2 yrs - sounds like the FBI has their tit in a ringer or this is their way of weaseling out of solving the Cooper Caper.

Just a the Dumb Broad's opinion.

Copyright 2006, 2007, 2008, 2009, 2010, 2011, 2012 2013, 2014, 2015 by Jo Weber

[TomKaye 1]

Quote

Surely it wont compromise his paper to answer, so I will ask:

Tom, do you have any help from specialists on analysing the holes?

Intelligent questions deserve intelligent answers.

We looked at the holes. We don't have a hole specialist on board. Its not part of the focus of our research and hence it will not be in the paper.

Just commenting, I figured they were either from roots or some small critters. Boring worms or other such animals "we think" should leave fairly straight through holes like a book worm does. Roots tend to take a crooked branched road. Since we only have two bills that were not on top of each other, we don't think we can comment intelligently on the holes. You would really need the stack intact to say something.

Tom