DB Cooper

[snowmman 3]

Quote

Fazio's laid out the whole scenario. They used to do dredging and piled it on the beach but they stopped this for environmental concerns surrounding some fish species that lived in the beach shallows.

They still dredge but the sand is brought other places and sometimes dumped inland. Fazio's have a contract with the government to take dredging sand thats how they got into the business.

Tena bar was destroyed because there is no replenishment of sand from dredging like the old days.

They would put the pipe way up the beach but I think he was referring to another area on their property not Tena proper. The aerial views don't support that.

Tom

Okay Tom, then I'm still confused.
So we really don't know what happened in '74.
I agree that the aerial photos seem at odds with the current story.
I think the output of the pipeline is like a pressure washer (with sand!) and can move a lot of stuff around.

I've posted studies of the output plume for pipeline dredges. They study this for pollution/water turbidity etc reasons. The effects can go for a while. (i.e. large output plume)

(edit) the fish species is salmon, spawning, I thought? Is there others?

[JerryThomas 0]

Snowmman There is no dredging material deposited on the shoreline anymore its all held in a holding tank on board the dredge and dumped at location that the Army Corps of engineers has leased.The reason it is done this way now is because the conservationist felt it was destroying the natural habitat for the little fishe's if the material was to be dumped on the shoreline.

[snowmman 3]

Jerry said:
"He also stated that the propelers on the pump would tear anything apart"

I've posted pictures of stuff that has gone thru pipeline dredges.
We have the anecdotal story, told by Tosaw, from the dredge operator, of a bird going thru, and flying off afterwards. That story is likely false.

I understand the "tearing up" theory, and it may be true.
But there are some things that suggest it might not be true.

We've been over this a lot, and don't need to revisit. It's just not black and white.

[TomKaye 1]

We have the exact location for the money find within about 20ft. This will be part of our published data so we are holding it close for now.

From what I understand the dredge spill is not very efficient at keeping sand up on the beach. It forms its own river that flows back to the Columbia and takes a bunch of sand with it. Hence half the sand ends back up in the water along the shore and you get the bump you see in the pics.

Also remember that Tena was a lot wider beach back then so when Fazio says so many feet up the beach he could have had the old beach in mind.

Tom

[snowmman 3]

Quote

Snowmman There is no dredging material deposited on the shoreline anymore its all held in a holding tank on board the dredge and dumped at location that the Army Corps of engineers has leased.The reason it is done this way now is because the conservationist felt it was destroying the natural habitat for the little fishe's if the material was to be dumped on the shoreline.

thanks. I think they call that a hopper dredge? or maybe a specially modified one they use there.

(since we love experts: the conservationists are correct. It does hurt the fish habitat.)

[JerryThomas 0]

Tom Fazio did point out where the pipe was laid for that dredge operation and it was in that location.

[snowmman 3]

Tom K said
"From what I understand the dredge spill is not very efficient at keeping sand up on the beach. It forms its own river that flows back to the Columbia and takes a bunch of sand with it. Hence half the sand ends back up in the water along the shore and you get the bump you see in the pics. "


When we were looking for alternative transports, we were looking at things like storm drainage etc.

It's interesting that this dredge slurry formed a temporary "river" draining back down.

The money could have been deposited somewhere way up shore in '71, then eroded down by the slurry in '74

What's bizarre is I can't understand this clay layer theory.

The dredge spoils don't come in different categories. It's all mixed up.

Either all of the dredge spoils were "clayey" and formed the "clay layer" (don't believe that since the clay layer isn't so thick?")
or ???

I think the clay layer theory is wrong.

I'd really like to see the report.

Safe thinks a non-reviewed report is correct. Why?
(edit) In terms of evidence, all we have is a picture of a clay layer. Anything beyond the existence of the layer is theory.

[JerryThomas 0]

I'm not sure I understand the clay theory either.What I do know is that it has something to do with the minerial deposits in the money found,However what ever minerial deposits that are found in the money should be close to those found in the clay. Remember the sand and other mater that coverd the money was there for a long time. Tom took some samples from other area's and is testing these sample's for comparison.I think.

[snowmman 3]

Quote

I'm not sure I understand the clay theory either.What I do know is that it has something to do with the minerial deposits in the money found,However what ever minerial deposits that are found in the money should be close to those found in the clay. Remember the sand and other mater that coverd the money was there for a long time. Tom took some samples from other area's and is testing these sample's for comparison.I think.

Thanks Jerry.
All we know about the stuff recently discovered on the money is the news articles that say "metal" and "chemical markers"

You've introduced the idea of minerals, which I take to be some kind of more natural (not refined by man) kind of deposit.

Where did you hear the "minerals on the money" idea?
Tom has alluded to this before the press stuff last week. I think he actually made a post but didn't specify details.

So it was interesting last week when we transitioned from minerals to metal and chemical markers.

(edit) Jerry: why do you think the sand that covered the money was there for a long time? Because of the condition of the money and rubber bands?

(edit) Jerry you said "he sand and other mater that coverd the money"

What other matter covered the money?

[TomKaye 1]

Everyone please understand that in order to publish a scientific paper, they require that you not release pertinent data ahead of time. You actually have to sign a statement that this is true. While I would love to chat it up with all the details, specifics of what we found on the money etc have to wait until after its published.

My job in publishing it will be to provide enough data that outsiders can reprocess and reevaluate the results independently. This should give everyone lots of (cannon?) fodder.

Jerry I don't think I mentioned it to you specifically while we were together, but please do not post details about or findings.

By the way Jerry was a BIG help on the trip and certainly knows the area like the back of his hand. He is close friends with H and I think is a reliable source of info on both the area and what H has related in the past.

Thanks

Tom

[377 22]

Quote

See we really don't have anything that tells us about the Cooper investigation. We don't have reports.

True Snow, no offical reports, but we do have this from the FBI:
http://www.fbi.gov/page2/dec07/dbcooper123107.html

Carr's opinions really take on an air of "official report" when you see them set forth on the FBI website that way. The presentation and source gives them "authority" independent of content.

Carr seems 100% positive that Cooper was not an experienced skydiver. How can he be so sure?
I still equivocate on that one. We are both just guessing. I see evidence supporting either position although Carr's conclusion has the edge.

He also says:
"[Cooper] had no idea where he was when he jumped. There was also no visibility of the ground due to cloud cover at 5,000 feet."

Are you 100% sure that he had "no idea" where he was on exit? I'm not.

The public likes to think the FBI is on top of things.
The public wouldn't like an FBI DBC webpage that said:

We dont have any idea who Cooper was. We only have a very rough idea of where he jumped and that thin line on out map should have been drawn with a broad brush or even a spray paint can. We have some DNA on a tie that might or might not be Cooper's. We have been unable to match it to any person.

377

2018 marks half a century as a skydiver. Trained by the late Perry Stevens D-51 in 1968.

[snowmman 3]

Yes I understand that Tom.

I'm just ignoring it.

Everyone wants there to be a club when they have some goals.
The time to form a club is before you have some goals.
You're asking for desired behaviors, but we're getting nothing in return.

Give up the clay report, and I'll back down.

[TomKaye 1]

Snow,

Well did I not show the SR-71 data? Here, I will be a good guy on the clay layer.

THERE IS NO REPORT ON THE CLAY LAYER. What you know is what I know. There were additional pics of the trench that showed sand layers, that's it.

Tom

[JerryThomas 0]

Sorry Tom. I'll not post things that will pertain to new data involving your paper.Got a call this morning from someone else requesting info on the trip it was someone new. I informed them I would be in the area on the 25th with Ralph so will be hooking up with them at that time I,ll let you know how that goes probably on the 27th.

[snowmman 3]

"Jerry I don't think I mentioned it to you specifically while we were together, but please do not post details about or findings."

Reminds me:

To everyone in the world who reads anything I post on DZ.com.

I forgot to mention it, but please do not think about anything I write.

Especially do not talk to TomKaye, JerryThomas, Ckret, skyjack71, 377, Sluggo_monster, SafecrackingPLF, wolfriverjoe, georger, Orange1, quade, NickDG, happythoughts, nitrochute, BruceSmith, 1969912, Skydivejack, javelin1, mark, AggieDave, Erroll, mccurley, Guru312, stratostar, ryoder, jonstark, dumstuntzz, Jim_Hooper, ltdiver, BillyVance, Albert18, airtwardo, Glitch, peckerhead, normiss, grimmie, IanHarrop, BigSky, Bgill, winsor, speedy, labrys

(stop for breath. sorry if I left out anyone)

[snowmman 3]

Hey it's actually cool to see that Ralph is back in the fray.

I'm seriously all for getting the guys from back-in-the-day back out and cutting it up with the new guys who think they're all that!

Go Ralph. Look forward to seeing maybe some insight from someone who was actually there, on all the questions we have.

Thanks Jerry.

[wolfriverjoe 1,523]

Tom, Do you have any idea of when you will be publishing? I understand what you are saying, and why you aren't giving out details.

BUT I WANT TO KNOW!!!

I have a few ideas about the money deposit. Just like a lot of things about this case, they are pure specualtion. You probably can confirm or deny a lot of my ideas.

But I don't think any of them would get us any closer to who Cooper really was.

For those interested in parachute hardware, the FAA Rigger Handbook has pictures and descriptions of all approved hardware. D-rings, Snap shackles, B-12s, all that stuff. Lots of other useful stuff on parachutes too.
Hardware starts on page 3-13 (pg 55 if you view it page-by-page).

The Poynter manuals have pics and descriptions of the NB-6 and Pioneer rigs too, but those aren't onlline that I can find. Maybe Snowmman can find them.

"There are NO situations which do not call for a French Maid outfit." Lucky McSwervy

"~ya don't GET old by being weak & stupid!" - Airtwardo

[SafecrackingPLF 0]

I don't have much time to spend here.

I would be extremely hesitant to rule out Palmer based on nothing, especially when there seems to be very little reason to do so.

I'm sorry if I'm lumping everyone in the same batch. A lot of you guys weren't here when I left, and some that were, aren't around anymore. I'm speaking more to the pervasive culture of attacking evidence when it disagrees with someone's opinion.

For us to say that they were totally wrong in calculating the landing area based solely on some documents is a bit of a stretch that opens the door to further mistakes.

I trust Tom Kaye 100% especially since he knows a thing or two about scientific method.

I do not trust some guy sitting in front of his computer looking at a few documents from the FBI file and then coming in and telling everyone that an entire team, including the military, got it all wrong... that is, without something absolute and concrete. If such evidence does exist, then my apologies.

Snow, you asked me if I was saying I believed in Duane or something to that effect. No, that's not what I'm saying.

What I'm saying is that attacking material facts or evidence just because it suggests a different answer is wrong... and almost everyone on this board, including Jo, has done this.

What I will say about Duane/Jo is the story that was printed 9 years ago in the US News & World Report was (to what I can tell) consistent with the evidence up to this point.

That's more than I can say for anyone else, including all of us... none of us have come up with a viable explanation as to how all the evidence *might* fit together. Sluggo once told me he could come up with a hundred ways to fit it all together, but I've only seen one and it came from the crazy lady.

If she made it all up, or he did, or she's a nutjob, then I have to at least give her credit for dreaming up the first solution that fits... does not mean it's the only solution or that he did it. The jury is still out on that and I sincerely believe Kaye will shed some insight for further discussion when he's done with his research.

Message to Kaye

And, the photos in the vid were taken about 50 yds from the find, and the debri seen on the beach was all stuff that floats (and there was a TON of garbage that washed up)....

I have to go now. Take care everyone and keep up the fight. I'm sure I'll be back when there's some tangible findings to discuss!

[snowmman 3]

Quote

Snow,

Well did I not show the SR-71 data? Here, I will be a good guy on the clay layer.

THERE IS NO REPORT ON THE CLAY LAYER. What you know is what I know. There were additional pics of the trench that showed sand layers, that's it.

Tom

Tom this cannot be true, and Safe knows it.
There cannot be just pictures. There has to be words.
The only words we have are in newspaper articles and Himmelsbach's Norjak book.

Are you saying the theory about the clay layer was only printed in the newspapers and the Norjack book? there is no FBI report mentioning the clay layer?

If so, this is good new data.

Did the FBI pay the geologist, or was that volunteer work?
Why didn't the geologist ever publish the work?

(edit) So the theory is: Pictures were taken, the geologist talked to newspaper people, the FBI read the newspapers, and that's the whole clay layer story???

Is there anything else?

[snowmman 3]

Ckret is not a geologist, and can't come up with theories from pictures.

Ckret posted here about the clay layer.

Ckret must have read it in an FBI report.

The Clay Layer Report is being destroyed, or hidden.

Why? Is Himmelsbach involved? He's coming to the forefront at the same time the Clay Layer Report disappears?

[BruceSmith 3]

***


Personality Disorder Theory



How does the evidence point to a personality disorder in DB Cooper, you ask?

Here's my thinking: DB Cooper seems to have lived in a world of his own. Some people do, and are highly successful at it, like mystics. But DB hijacked a plane, so he's probably not one of those.

Himmelsbach describes Cooper's behavior as desperate. I think he is correct in his analysis. That is my sense, too. One can argue that jumping out of a plane in November with somebody else's parachute is a quintessential act of desperation, although some might say it is the supreme rush of feeling alive.

But, folks who are like DB Cooper, but aren't desperate, generally take medication and enter psychoanalysis, and try to find a place for themselves in the world.

But DB didn't live in the world as most of us do, even those of us who are chronically lonely and pissed-off. Those of us who are the latter generally find a good blog to communicate on, or find other hobbies. Nor did DB Cooper return to the world, although the Formans might argue that Barb Dayton did.

So, to live in such a way that no one misses you, no one knows you are gone, suggests strongly that that individual is unable to form meaningful relationships, and that is the height of a personality disorder.

And from that comes a clue. Personality disorders are most commonly formed through abuse as a child, particularly sexual abuse.

Now, that abuse can leave some powerful effects that can last a lifetime, such as fractured memories, identity disorder, multiple personalities, severe anxieties, reckless behavior and more.

Add to this the fact that in the Cooper case multiple suspects are coming forward with death-bed confessions. Their backgrounds show an edgy, marginal, problematic lifestyle, ie: lots of crime, macho military stints, weird sex habits, five or six wives, etc. Do these men have personality disorders? Maybe. And if they did/do, how does it tie into DB Cooper?

One link is the CIA's MK ULTRA program, often referred to as the Manchurian Candidate program. This program was quite active during the 50s-70s and used 6% of the Agency’s budget. Its core recipe was using abuse to shock a victim's brain into compartmentalized factions that could then be controlled. Folks generally call this brain-washing, but there is hardly anything clean about it.

Is the Cooper case linked to MK ULTRA? If so, is the FBI protecting that linkage? Is that why the FBI hasn't found DB Cooper?

If MK ULTRA and mind-control play any part in the Cooper case, what role could it have been? Perhaps the Cooper case, and the McCoy case, and the other 20 "copy-cat" Cooper skyjackings, were part of an operational component of MK ULTRA.

It's one possibility, one among perhaps a million. But I find it's plausible given the facts as we know them.

I understand there has been some discussion on MK ULTRA and CIA connections in this forum. Can you tell me where approximately, or is there an index I can access?

Thanks.

[snowmman 3]

"What I'm saying is that attacking material facts or evidence just because it suggests a different answer is wrong... and almost everyone on this board, including Jo, has done this."

Ok, thanks Safe.

FYI, I don't think there are many people that believe Jo's story holds any water, any more.

It would be easier if you name names when you're referring to people, so they could defend their points of view. Because you may have some good feedback for them.

It's good to point out whose information/thoughts you trust and whose you question. That helps frame a point of view. We all do that. It's how humans work.

(edit) You make a good point about how only the crazy lady came up with a theory that could be slightly plausible. She had the benefit of coming up with it much later in time. But you're right: what does that say about everything else? Don't know.
hey: I threw out a crazy-lady-theory about Himmelsbach. That's just as plausible as the Duane theory. Just as non-plausible as the Duane theory too.

I just don't PR it like Jo. (Jo has no more evidence than I do)

(edit) On attacking evidence. Jo had evidence of Duane's commutation. On face value, that seemed to imply something. I dug up stuff that showed it was likely not what it seemed, and something much more benign.

Attacking evidence can be a good thing, if it's misinterpreted "evidence" or wrong.

[snowmman 3]

Bruce:

If you're just writing the sensationalism kind of story (which I love), you need to tie in Ted Kaczynski.

You're a cooper-conspiracy-nut lightweight if you don't know about his participation in a MKULTRA experiment.

(edit) Bruce: use the search feature for whatever you're interested in.
restrict it to posts by snowmman.
That'll get you to relevant pages, assuming you have a search topic.

I generally responded to all themes, so you can get close. When you see who else responded to a theme, you can switch to posts by them. Etc.

[TomKaye 1]

Wolf,

I expect that it will be out around august. This means it has to be submitted in june.



Safe,

Thanks for taking the time to make the video and having confidence in us. Bravo that you actually went to the site and did float tests. My teams reputation is at stake here and we are keenly interested in doing the proper research and not jumping to conclusions.

Everyone on the team has changed their opinions several times when new info came in. I at first believed Cooper landed on TB and buried the money. Couldn't have been more wrong!

I can say that our chemical signature took a bad hit just this afternoon from a search on the internet. We must now do additional tests to determine if the signature is important or nothing at all.

I have been down this road many times and know the pitfalls to watch out for. We could make mistakes in the end, but scientific publications as I have said, require release of info so others can catch your mistakes.

Thanks

Tom

[snowmman 3]

you're rehashing what was well published in the '70s from psychiatrists. There are books from that era you should read.

Your "theories" are nothing new. But the '70s stuff has also been discounted by later people of equal stature. So what to believe?
For instance, the papers on the contagion theory of hijacking make a lot of sense. How does that feed the madness that's inherent in the massses somewhere?

We've gone thru this before. I've posted a lot of google book references, etc.

Ckret made a point of saying he didn't believe in that stuff.
I think we all agreed the drama of a hijack made the psych stuff more applicable.

How about "prominent persecutory delusions" and auditory hallucinations? Paranoid delusional disorder, possibly acute schizophrenia?
http://www.zimgreats.com/index.php?option=com_content&task=view&id=383&Itemid=35

that's from a shrink 1/23/2077 for Tinashe Rioga, Zimbabwean student who tried to hijack a South African plane.

Please do not write about all the South Africa connections to Cooper. We know there are a lot, but we keep them well hidden.

(edit) On the other hand, Tinashe was quoted as saying (his weapon was a syringe) when he tried to get in the cockpit
"If you don't open that f... door, I will kill you"

That just sounds like a common criminal, like Himmelsbach liked to say. Hmmmmmm? All about points of view I suppose.