DB Cooper

[georger 268]

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Snow

I just put the ohmmeter on the two jaws of my staple remover. Zero ohms.
Kaboom. This is the work of an explosives expert? Aren't they licensed? Was Barb licensed? I wouldn't hire her to wire my caps, delays and explosives. Would you?

377

... as I said we arent dealing with technical
people. And yet they fly and work on planes etc.
That's fine. They now are trying their hands at story telling.

Ever build a boat out of ice?

Georger your avatar allways reminds me of the million monkeys typing theme - I forget the origins of your avatar, but this will hopefully amuse you. I've seen a couple of versions - this a rip'off of a youtube commentators version

I love it! Thanks.

Prior to the Bonobo chimp I had no avatar. Didnt
think one was necessary. Then intelligence dipped to an all time low here and I posted the thinking chimp
in a reply, then made it my own avatar. Seemed
appropriate. I dabbled in primate research when young. A former friend of mine directed the primate
program at NASA prior to human astronauts being allowed to fly - John Glenn, Grisom, and Shirra threatened a strike and a press conference if the primate program wasnt haulted and a window
designed into the capsules (true story). Its hard
to believe we were ever at that stage! At the time a
group of German scientists held sway at NASA and
didn't think humans could function in space.

(Jim Van Allen agreed!) Hee hee. God bless him...

[georger 268]

There probably wasn't a Continental flight behind Flight 305. Enroute at 14k is very unlikely, and pireps of winds aloft are unlikely. Georger is looking into it.

Reply: I talked to people at PDX and in Continental.
Bohan is remembered but nobody seems able or
inclined to nail down the Continental 11-24-71 flight
behind NWA flight 305. There doesnt seem much
doubt that the flight occurred, as reported by H.
Tom Bohan knew the Manager at PDX, Kenneth Hastings.

Nobody seems to know if the old records even exist,
today. PDX people were very helpful. Continental people were ... resistant.

I will try and do more next week -

Unless I am mistaken I thought Ckret said the
Bohan report was bogus, or not quite true, or
not reported accurately - something like that. I also
thought I read (or heard) that H did not accept the
account either? Im a bit confused, frankly. I will
pursue this further .... and report.

[snowmman 3]

georger mentioned the meals and said

"Did he jump on a full or empty stomach? "

It's interesting to ponder whether, after you round up the cash, you would consider my setup "Cooper-compatible" if I'm allowed to stand in front of some meals and stuff food in my pockets before you dump me.

Here's a thought though.

If Cooper realized he might be jumping in the woods, he might have grabbed something (remember my comment about him not being worried about running out of matches when he was smoking with Tina?)

Not grabbing any food, maybe might say he wasn't worried about jumping into the netherwoods, even though it was obviously dark/raining etc.

But then again, he could just be stupid.

[snowmman 3]

ckret's post was:

Sluggo,

I cannot find where an interview of Bohan was conducted by the FBI. His statement is a bit out of what had been reported by the various weather services the evening of the jump. To that end, as with all of the factors on the evening of the jump, you have to keep in mind that humans beings were involved in this incident.

Human beings that don't have all the pieces of the puzzel in front of them. Human beings that don't know whats going to happen from minute to minute, and so on...... Some how you are going to have to take a look at the incident from two directions, a keen investigator with information after the fact and (this is the tough part) a person in the moment (with their knowledge and skill set) not knowing whats going to happen next and just reacting.

[BruceSmith 3]

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Snowmman- why the dis?

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Fair enough question Bruce.
If you noticed, when you first arrived, there was this flurry of "oh let's straighten our backs and slick back our hair and act nice because here's a member of the 4th estate that might be able to add some data"

But it turned out that's not what (I'm guessing) you're about.
I remember when Geoff Gray sent me a PM talking about his book and waxing poetic about how the comic book angle was just too good to leave alone. You reminded me of that. Liking the story more than solving a puzzle. Barb Dayton isn't part of solving the puzzle. That's what I think and that's what I said. Simple.

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We disagree Snowmman. I think Barb Dayton may be part of solving the puzzle, as might Duane Weber, Gossett, et.al.

And also Charlie Farrell, and the story of how Himmelsbach got to be the face and voice of the FBI investigation. And where is J. Edgar Hoover in all this? In fact, I find the mysteries of the FBI's Cooper investigation are as compelling as looking at the details of DB Cooper himself.

I believe the two are linked. Specifically, I sense strongly that looking into the FBI's activities and decision-making process will give us a direction that leads to DB Cooper's home or grave.

Now, the question is, can I prove the FBI's investigation has been compromised? Not yet, and I wonder if I could ever solve it to your satisfaction.

But, I'm trying.

As for crazy people and confessions, I feel I have developed capacity for discerning their truth. I worked for 16 years as a psychotherapist (14 as a recreation therapist in VA, private, and public psychiatric facilities, and two years as an family and youth counselor in foster care).

In my humble clinical opinion, I believe that DB Cooper had a personality disorder. The single most compelling piece of information from the FBI's files, for me, is that no one has come forth to announce a missing family member. It is as if DB Cooper came from no where and returned to no where. No friends, family, co-workers, land lords or neighbors have reported a vanished loved one/associate/tenant who could be a suspect.

Along those lines, Barb Dayton clearly had a personality disorder, and I think the same might be true for the other leading suspects.

That perspective is a line of inquiry I am pursuing, and I am grateful to share what tid-bits I have found with this forum, as meager as some might deem them to be.

For me, this forum is more about asking questions and learning from y'all, rather than sharing data, of which I don't have massive amounts. However, I am working up a magazine piece on what I have found so far, ie: red flags in the FBI's investigation, and a view of the "story," and I expect to be posting it here shortly once it is in suitable shape for cyber space. In the meantime, if you would like, I can send you a draft via PM.

Already, I have learned a ton here. The connection between the smokejumpers, CIA, Air America and 727s is invaluable. Thanks to all.

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[snowmman 3]

Bruce said:

"And also Charlie Farrell, and the story of how Himmelsbach got to be the face and voice of the FBI investigation. And where is J. Edgar Hoover in all this? In fact, I find the mysteries of the FBI's Cooper investigation are as compelling as looking at the details of DB Cooper himself.

I believe the two are linked. Specifically, I sense strongly that looking into the FBI's activities and decision-making process will give us a direction that leads to DB Cooper's home or grave."

Now you're acting like a member of the 4th estate, Bruce.
You can see that Tom Kaye has already commented on it.

Now everyone knows the tools and techniques we have today were not available then. So what. It's like pointing out that NASA didn't have the right stuff either when they launched stuff and that's why people died. Doesn't matter really. What was, was.

If you read thru this forum, there's a constant battering whenever I bring up something that can be construed as a dis to the FBI, and I say that there could be more info they could release. (simple examples: The clay layer report. The reports on dredging. There's a boatload of examples. Were jumpers from the '60s investigated, or did they just talk to current 1971-era clubs)

I don't mind Ckret doing whatever he feels like doing, from nothing to something.

What really bugged me was how he assumed people should defer to him, or cut him some slack, independent of his actions...i.e. be treated different than anyone else on this forum.

He at least should have realized that he's in an enviable position (for the Cooper thing only) compared to everyone else.

Even if the data is disorganized, random, inconsistent, on crappy paper, he can look at it.

We can't.

We have to rely on drippings we scrape off of tv videos, where there's obviously a little propaganda going on.

And then act thankful for it.

And if I'm not nice to people, all the time, I'm both stupid, evil, more stupid, low life. etc.

So the more name calling you see, yeah, a journalist should ask
"What the fuck? Why do people get emotional? What's at stake here"

If you take the TV vids at face value..i.e. the FBI opening the evidence vaults to amateur sleuths, then why all the secret club stuff going on here, and guys like Jerry Thomas pretending they have secret data from Himmelsbach?

And why is Himmelsbach monitoring the forum? And ask Ckret point blank why he went away. The probable answer would be "The forum is a waste of my time". That makes sense. There are rumors he was told to leave. Is that true or false. It may be a stupid detail, but everything with the Cooper case is a stupid detail.


It's all fucked up, isn't it.

For human interest, you can throw in the Jo story. I'd like to remind people while I've totally drunk the 377 religion on the benefits of warmth, towards Jo, I don't believe Duane had anything to do with 305.

I would point out that Jo actually doesn't mind the humor in my little things like the avatar.

Yeah, Bruce, you could write a story "Does the FBI still cover ass, 37 years later".

(edit) BRUCE: Most people have no idea what the CIA did in Vietnam, still. Not that it matters now. BUT it's interesting how the web is becoming a depository for first hand accounts from all the people that are 50-70 years old now. I find it fascinating.

That Air America clip is fascinating. Have you see the slow mo I put up at dbcooperxfiles on youtube?

I could give you some higher-res frames of that if you want for your article.

It would be a reality check for readers (that they would love)..that they really don't know what's true or what's false with Cooper.

We have no idea who Cooper is or what happened. That's the story.

(edit) We're still debating the fucking winds, and whether a helicopter went up that night. I still see press accounts that say "-7" without qualifying it as "-7C Outside Air Temp at 10k feet"
and that ground temps were moderate.

(I can't even remember if -7 was the right number from the transcripts. I think it was)

(edit) And at the very least, don't let lies get sent out to the US public. If there's no investigation. Fine. It doesn't matter. But don't say there's an active investigation when there's not.

There isn't one. No one wants to pay for one. That's fine.
That's why it's just us nutbags on this forum.
There's no one else.

(edit) Another frigging joke. Tom Kaye throws out a line that he's seen something that says the SR-71 was involved somehow in the investigation, and we're supposed to be impressed.

CRAP! Tom K. even you're shovelling it.

Either say what it did, or forget about it. It's like everyone wants to imply stuff happened that likely didn't.

[SafecrackingPLF 0]

First, I happened to notice 377's sentiments about Marquis. This has been a terrible tragedy and the survivor's story has changed. Apparently the new version will be released to the public soon. Thank you for your sentiments. I wish his daughter and widow the very best.

As for Tom Kaye's investigation. I'd like to URGE you to follow the evidence.

This is something that has not been done in this case... hardly at all.

And judging from what I'm reading in the papers, it's still not being done.

quoting the Oregonian:
"The hijacker's landing zone has never been pinpointed. Originally it was thought to be somewhere south of Ariel, Wash., near Lake Merwin, but Carr said the discovery of the money along the Columbia River ruled that out."

When I was able to demonstrate that the landing zone could not have explained the money WITHOUT COOPER SURVIVING, all hell broke loose, but I was happy to see that this immutable fact had to be accepted. In accepting the fact, you either must acknowledge that Cooper lived, or that the landing zone was way off (and by way off, it's more than 10 miles off). When altering case facts, they fail to account for other knowns. For example, you can't just throw Cooper in the Columbia and solve the puzzle because the evidence would contradict that hypothesis.

Pretty much everyone on this board has attempted to twist and turn the evidence to fit their presuppositions.

This fundamental mistake has kept the truth hidden and only by looking at the evidence clearly, without bias, will any sort of truth be gleaned.

If the idea is to find out where he landed, then you're making a big mistake... the mistake is in assuming that an army of people watching this flight in real time made such a large error.

Just follow the evidence and allow it to tell the story for you.

If you do that, you will do what no one has done in nearly 40 years, and you may just solve the mystery.

Conversely, if make the same mistake that everyone else has made, you'll wind up stumped and defeated... except you will have left us clues to further your work.

[snowmman 3]

Hi Safe

I agree with you, and hope you can expand on your last post

you said

"For example, you can't just throw Cooper in the Columbia and solve the puzzle because the evidence would contradict that hypothesis. "

I believe you're referring to the apparent current disregard of the clay layer data. I thought that's what was interesting about Tom K's comments...i.e. that the clay layer data might be wrong.

Are you referring to other evidence, (Rat's testimony is fuzzy, so you're probably not referring to that), or ???

I know I'm willing to follow the evidence. But I also know I don't understand what people are saying sometimes..???

(edit) Hey Safe: maybe I don't understand my personal bias. If you have a one-liner impression of mine, let it rip, it will help me.

(edit) Safe: I don't follow this:
"The mistake is in assuming that an army of people watching this flight in real time made such a large error. "

The tools they were using to watch the flight: regardless of the size of the army, why would they have been able to tell where Cooper jumped? I think the size didn't matter. It was the tools and how they were used that created the vagary? Can you expand?

[1969912 0]

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When I was able to demonstrate that the landing zone could not have explained the money WITHOUT COOPER SURVIVING, all hell broke loose, but I was happy to see that this immutable fact had to be accepted. In accepting the fact, you either must acknowledge that Cooper lived, or that the landing zone was way off (and by way off, it's more than 10 miles off). When altering case facts, they fail to account for other knowns. For example, you can't just throw Cooper in the Columbia and solve the puzzle because the evidence would contradict that hypothesis.

[Thumb's up emoticon] Agree almost completely.

"Once we got to the point where twenty/something's needed a place on the corner that changed the oil in their cars we were doomed . . ."
-NickDG

[snowmman 3]

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When I was able to demonstrate that the landing zone could not have explained the money WITHOUT COOPER SURVIVING, all hell broke loose, but I was happy to see that this immutable fact had to be accepted. In accepting the fact, you either must acknowledge that Cooper lived, or that the landing zone was way off (and by way off, it's more than 10 miles off). When altering case facts, they fail to account for other knowns. For example, you can't just throw Cooper in the Columbia and solve the puzzle because the evidence would contradict that hypothesis.

[Thumb's up emoticon] Agree almost completely.

What am I missing? What's the thumb up for?
I want to see a message but I can't see it? What is it?

[1969912 0]

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When I was able to demonstrate that the landing zone could not have explained the money WITHOUT COOPER SURVIVING, all hell broke loose, but I was happy to see that this immutable fact had to be accepted. In accepting the fact, you either must acknowledge that Cooper lived, or that the landing zone was way off (and by way off, it's more than 10 miles off). When altering case facts, they fail to account for other knowns. For example, you can't just throw Cooper in the Columbia and solve the puzzle because the evidence would contradict that hypothesis.

[Thumb's up emoticon] Agree almost completely.

What am I missing? What's the thumb up for?
I want to see a message but I can't see it? What is it?

It's a "yeah, you're right" kinda thing. I agree with him in that it's very unlikely that the $ ended up where it was found by natural processes. It's possible that the "Club" or whatever it's called will come up with evidence to the contrary, but it had better be pretty strong evidence.

"Once we got to the point where twenty/something's needed a place on the corner that changed the oil in their cars we were doomed . . ."
-NickDG

[snowmman 3]

got it.

I'm being perfectly straightforward in saying I don't understand what Safe is trying to get at, and I'm not trying to be a prick.

I thought last time Safe surfaced he made a one-liner or two that I interpreted as "it had to be Duane" and I don't know why I thought that and now realize I was probably wrong in guessing that.

Is Safe now saying the evidence still points more strongly to a live landing? Or maybe he's not sure and just saying it's not as neat as the papers/Carr/Video/Propaganda are making it out to be.???

(edit) Guessing about what other evidence Safe might be thinking of: The positioning of the bundles? The lack of bag or other bundles at the find? ??? Not sure.

[377 22]

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(edit) Another frigging joke. Tom Kaye throws out a line that he's seen something that says the SR-71 was involved somehow in the investigation, and we're supposed to be impressed.

Anything SR 71 impresses me including unsubstantiated rumors. Bring em on. A 12 and YF 12 too. All Skunk Works all the time.

Snow, we have now seen actual pictures of the FBI party that we were not invited to. I am not sure we are even on the B list.

Georger has brought non wacko people to the forum who are presentable enough to gain admission to the FBI inner sanctum.

The FBI will never let us in to look at their stuff. I probably wouldn't either if I were them.

Barb Dayton and Duane are going to help solve this case because they have personality disorders??? Maybe Duane's secret book was DSM IV.



377

2018 marks half a century as a skydiver. Trained by the late Perry Stevens D-51 in 1968.

[snowmman 3]

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Snow, we have now seen actual pictures of the FBI party that we were not invited to. I am not sure we are even on the B list.

Here's what they missed. Even I, whuffo, would have realized that if some jumpers would have been invited to the party (well, BASE jumpers at least), there would have been hot babes, everyone would have gotten laid, and regardless of Cooper evidence, more fun would have been had.

[snowmman 3]

377 I know you've looked over the recent release of Bush memos authorizing military use in the US for domestic terrorism investigation. Since rescinded as policy.

Interesting that in 1971 they worried about this when using military for the Cooper search, and called it "training exercise"

If there was an SR-71 spy plane overflight of the US, as part of a domestic criminal investigation in 1971, that would be huge interesting news. (CIA -> domestic)

I think it's bullshit that Tom Kaye got fed.
Maybe someone took a joyride and said "oh yeah, Cooper investigation related"

[1969912 0]

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got it.

I'm being perfectly straightforward in saying I don't understand what Safe is trying to get at, and I'm not trying to be a prick.

I thought last time Safe surfaced he made a one-liner or two that I interpreted as "it had to be Duane" and I don't know why I thought that and now realize I was probably wrong in guessing that.

Is Safe now saying the evidence still points more strongly to a live landing? Or maybe he's not sure and just saying it's not as neat as the papers/Carr/Video/Propaganda are making it out to be.???

(edit) Guessing about what other evidence Safe might be thinking of: The positioning of the bundles? The lack of bag or other bundles at the find? ??? Not sure.

I don't remember the "one liner" thing, but I pay very little attention to this thread, so I could easily have missed it. It's really hard for me to believe that the $ made it from any reasonable LZ in rubber-banded bundles........ That's enough for now.

"Once we got to the point where twenty/something's needed a place on the corner that changed the oil in their cars we were doomed . . ."
-NickDG

[1969912 0]

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Anything SR 71 impresses me including unsubstantiated rumors. Bring em on.....

Yeah, I'd like to know more about the SR-71 deal.

"Once we got to the point where twenty/something's needed a place on the corner that changed the oil in their cars we were doomed . . ."
-NickDG

[TomKaye 1]

I just got back home from the trip and see your bitching about the SR 71 comment. Like so many things in this investigation, the information was not complete and there is no big "SR 71 Report" at the FBI. In fact it was only one line that was so insignificant, even Ckret missed it.

I believe I photographed it so if you give me some time to get things organized, I will post the original up for you.

What we have come to learn about the investigations back then was that if the FBI instigated a request for data, and send out some piece of evidence, they were unlikely to get it back. This is because the people who generated the info have to testify in court so they hang on to the evidence.

Tom

[snowmman 3]

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I just got back home from the trip and see your bitching about the SR 71 comment. Like so many things in this investigation, the information was not complete and there is no big "SR 71 Report" at the FBI. In fact it was only one line that was so insignificant, even Ckret missed it.

I believe I photographed it so if you give me some time to get things organized, I will post the original up for you.

What we have come to learn about the investigations back then was that if the FBI instigated a request for data, and send out some piece of evidence, they were unlikely to get it back. This is because the people who generated the info have to testify in court so they hang on to the evidence.

Tom

Thanks Tom.
I'm a powerseller on Ebay. Since you'll be hanging onto your evidence, when you need to "lose it somewhere"...I'll be able to help.

:)

[1969912 0]

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I just got back home from the trip and see your bitching about the SR 71 comment. Like so many things in this investigation, the information was not complete and there is no big "SR 71 Report" at the FBI. In fact it was only one line that was so insignificant, even Ckret missed it.

I believe I photographed it so if you give me some time to get things organized, I will post the original up for you.

What we have come to learn about the investigations back then was that if the FBI instigated a request for data, and send out some piece of evidence, they were unlikely to get it back. This is because the people who generated the info have to testify in court so they hang on to the evidence.

Tom

Tom,

You are probably not replying to a post of mine. With all the quoting and stuff it's sometimes hard to determine who said what. That said, I'm interested in the SR-71 story because I am obsessed with that airplane.

Any further info re: the SR-71 would be appreciated.

thanks,

jim

"Once we got to the point where twenty/something's needed a place on the corner that changed the oil in their cars we were doomed . . ."
-NickDG

[georger 268]

I believe the two are linked. Specifically, I sense strongly that looking into the FBI's activities and decision-making process will give us a direction that leads to DB Cooper's home or grave.

Now, the question is, can I prove the FBI's investigation has been compromised? Not yet, and I wonder if I could ever solve it to your satisfaction.

But, I'm trying.

As for crazy people and confessions, I feel I have developed capacity for discerning their truth. I worked for 16 years as a psychotherapist (14 as a recreation therapist in VA, private, and public psychiatric facilities, and two years as an family and youth counselor in foster care).

In my humble clinical opinion, I believe that DB Cooper had a personality disorder. The single most compelling piece of information from the FBI's files, for me, is that no one has come forth to announce a missing family member. It is as if DB Cooper came from no where and returned to no where. No friends, family, co-workers, land lords or neighbors have reported a vanished loved one/associate/tenant who could be a suspect.

Along those lines, Barb Dayton clearly had a personality disorder, and I think the same might be true for the other leading suspects.


Reply>

Those are sweeping goals and assumptions. You must have access to FBI records beyond what is available at Seattle?

The issues here are flight path, drop zone, and money at Tina Bar; issues intrinsically numerical in nature unless some psychological component can be shown.

Ckret thought Cooper was a "dumb ass" and bailed
in a confused panic. That may be as 'psychological' as it gets. An FAA psychiatrist gave his opinion and was so far off the mark as to be ludicrous.

You are saying the FBI botched the investigation and therefore the investigation itself contains unprocessed clues, and somewhere in the files is
a lead that leads straight to Cooper's former home or his grave. All identifiable now due to social psychological clues and tools, applied to styles and errors in management ?

That is very close to saying: "THE FBI WAS COOPER!"

How many layers deep do you suppose these clues
are? Sluggo posted the names of lead invesitigators
who have managed this case. Which investigator do you suspect as being incompetent, or which clerk failed to alert General Marshall the Japs were coming!?

These are sweeping goals?

So, you are an investigator of the investigators?
How large a staff is at your disposal! ?

Lucky for me Im only have to find a flight report filed
8:40pmPST apx 11-24-71 at PDX.

It might be interesting to try a PI on Cooper.
I did a quickie using the Jung-Meyers-Briggs;
My Cooper estimate came out: 72% Introverted,
1% Sensing, 38% Thinking. Occupational:
Computer programming, Mechanics/Auto Repair.
Your estimate would produce different results. Give
it a go.

The FBI did profiling of Cooper but some clerk lost it!

[TomKaye 1]

Ok it was near the top so you get it right away. This is the original photo. There was nothing else on the page or any other comments about it in 1000 pages of documentation.

As you can see, its just a hint. Now some of you will insist there is a report, or pics somewhere, or that it was hushed up or some such thing. Before my days in Seattle I might have agreed with you. Now I know that someone from the FBI called up the SR-71 guys and said "Did you find anything?" they said " no, nothing" and that was the end of it.

Ok Snow, I have made good with the data. Now the forum can do something for me. There was a black box on 305 and it was used somehow in the data analysis. The FAA has no record of it. Ckret spent a LOT of time looking for it in the files and came up empty. I need an example of the RAW black box data from that era, preferably from a 727.

Unless we know what to look for, I think it could be missed. I think its a long piece of paper with squiggly lines but that is a guess. At least it would be good to know how many channels they were recording and what they looked at.

Ok, stop fighting with each other and get some work done.

Thanks

Tom

ps the paper on the right was a post it note we used so we could photograph it later.

[snowmman 3]

TomKaye said:
"I need an example of the RAW black box data from that era, preferably from a 727. "

Sluggo and I talked about this way back when. Sluggo knew some stuff on this, but I'll see if I can find anything.

Hey this is like The Matrix scene with Trinity:

Neo : Can you fly that thing?

Trinity : ...Not yet.

She takes out a cellular phone, and calls Tank, who is back at the controls.

Tank : Operator.

Trinity : Tank, I need a program for a V-212 helicopter...Hurry!

Tank finds one, and presses load. Trinity's eyes flicker with REM for a few moments, and then snap open.

[snowmman 3]

sluggo posted this last year in response to a question from me, at another forum. Hell even Ckret never cracked that secret club.
Lucky: we were doing import/export to Pakistan and Brazil.

I never really looked, so will start by keying off Sluggo here, or maybe Sluggo can chime in some more.
-----------------------------------------------------------------------------

(snipped sluggo's first response that had no data. Note that Sluggo had some caveats about correctness and accuracy. So don't assume he's representing anything as gospel here. I'll try to find more based on this)

Sluggo
06-05-2008, 02:44 PM
snowmman,

I am no expert on Flight Data Recorders (FDRs) and Flight Data Acquisition Units (FDAUs) but here’s my read on FDRs:

In the late 1960s and early 1970s, new recorders that could retain information about the engines, flight controls, flaps, etc., to fully assist accident investigators were required by the FAA. Whether there was a requirement for back-fitting older aircraft, is unknown (to me). These units recorded 25 hours of data on a continuous loop tape.

Most FDRs of that era (1971) recorded:

Time.
Altitude.
Airspeed.
Vertical acceleration.
Heading.
Pitch attitude.
Roll attitude.
Longitudinal acceleration.
Control column or pitch control surface position.
Thrust of each engine (Throttle position).


Here are a few of the parameters recorded by some FDRs of the era (1971):

Time
Pressure altitude
Airspeed
Vertical acceleration
Magnetic heading
Control-column position
Independent Pitch attitude
Independent Roll attitude
Longitudinal Acceleration
Rudder-pedal position
Control-wheel position
Horizontal stabilizer
Fuel flow
Time of each radio transmission either to or from air traffic control.
I’m sure that regardless of which of these parameter sets were being recorded the time, pressure altitude, magnetic heading, fuel flow, and (if recorded) radio transitions time were all synchronized with the radar data to refine the flight path estimates.

Sluggo

[snowmman 3]

snowmman
06-05-2008, 12:16 PM
interesting Sluggo. More Science is always better! My wife likes to say "Only Math can save you now!"

I've been wondering about this whole thing with the jump zone being predicted (the '72 map) using a combination of USAF radar data, and flight recorder data and etc.

Based on what's been said about what the flight recorder might have held, I can't picture how radar data could be merged with it.

It seems to me that the flight path would be solely based on radar data.

Do you know for sure what a 1971 flight recorder would have held for data, and how that data could be merged with radar data, or even confirm radar data.

What it feels like is that the DZ was predicted with radar, and they had all this other info, but it's unclear if any of it was useful.

Your thoughts or more info?