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quade

DB Cooper

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Pretending? -:D:D:DDid he fake the ticket, the stub and the bag. Why?

I promise you we didn't have money for him to have someone print things for me to find - and he excused such items as not meaning anything any more. He had every opportunity to have told me a lot of tales which he did not do.



Jo, honest question.
Has it ever occurred to you that maybe he was telling the truth when he said they didn't mean anything? That you are adding 2 + 2 and arriving at 7?

Every so often I find old ticket foils or boarding pass stubs from flights. To someone else they may look as if I have kept them purposefully, when in actual fact they just got put somewhere accidentally and never got chucked out.


----------------------------------------

Orange if that was the case WHY did he retrieve the stub from the trash can at the office after he told me to throw it away.

I don't have a clue what happened to the bag.

The airline ticket shows up in 1994 in a box at the house and that same old expression - It used to mean something but doesn't mean anything anymore. Then Poof it disappears and then reappears in his sock drawer and then it disappeared for good. Note when he dung that ticket out his leg was in a cast. He really wanted that ticket for some reason? I think he rehid it in the garage with the flea market stuff and I had a garage sale and the girls sold the book that wasn't a book and what was in it after he told her to put it aside. He was UPSET.

She claimed she didn'ty know what happened to the book , but Duane went all over that garage and it was not there. He was too ill when he got home from Dialysis and I had already tore the gargage up looking for a book that wasn't a book that I didn't know existed.

CA called tonight - they want to talk to me tomorrow. Remember that early in the day I had said "Just put it in Gods hands". We are supposed to have a 3 way converation at noon .

I was straight up with them that the story is NOT written and I do not have a clue what it is worth and that I didn't want it to be a dirty movie or one that goes into the covert end too far. I also feel that if they want the story they need to do some reserach - fill in the yrs 1944 - 1950 and 1965 to 1968. and find out who the man is in the picture at S:C/ Why the man in Mobille threathened me and what was his connection with TW. and Jm.Wave.

Sounds boring to me - one woman battlelilng a batallion of computer geegs about Cooper day in and day out. All the movies I have seen make no sense at all. The shoot all the scence and then just miix them up in a saladshooter and it ins up SALAD FIXINGS. But it does not hurt to talk --- will see what happnes. I am tired of the battle. Plus the timeing couldn't be worse with me going into the hospiptal and not allowing my self to get upset

They will really have to make some concessions to get me to agtree to this I don't what the covert suffu mentinged other than just in passing as a means of working and getting a pay check, becase I have NO propf otjher than wah another woman told me and what her children told me.

I am not a writter but I think they should profile 2 or 3 of the suspecgts and let the reader seend a ballot for their best suspecti. A book the reader can contributi to. Like ths form.
Copyright 2006, 2007, 2008, 2009, 2010, 2011, 2012 2013, 2014, 2015 by Jo Weber

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The all-caps text below is directly from the fbi web page. Maybe they have 14-year-olds doing their web pages, like everyone else does?

This is supposedly the biggest hiring blitz since 9/11.

I think Ckret would probably give us all a good reference. i.e.. fill in "I know Ckret" under references.

The rumor (that I'm starting) is that most of the new positions are related to the Cooper investigation. Or the coverup conspiracy, I'm not sure which.

"FBI MEGA HIRING TO FILL OVER 2100 PROFESSIONAL STAFF POSITIONS! UPDATES WILL BE ADDED DAILY THROUGH JANUARY 5, 2009. QUALIFIED PROFESSIONAL STAFF CANDIDATES WILL BE CONTACTED TO PARTICIPATE IN A CAREER INVITATIONAL. ADDITIONALLY, THE FBI MUST HIRE 850 SPECIAL AGENTS."
http://www.fbijobs.gov/



That website text is funny. 14 year old webmaster? Well, at these wages they aren't gonna lure anyone out of Silicon Valley.

Did you see the posting for FBI woodworker? Weren't the Watergate burglars referred to as "carpenters"?

Do SA's moonlight to pay their mortgages? Read below and you'll see why I ask.

Special Agent
As the primary investigative arm of the federal government, the FBI is responsible for protecting the United States by preventing future terrorist attacks, conducting sensitive national security ...[more]

Vacancy Ann.#: SA-FO-2009-0003
Who May Apply: Public
Pay Plan: GS-1811-10/10
Appointment Term: Permanent
Job Status: Full-Time
Opening Date: 10/6/2008
Salary: From 49,347.00 to 67,220.00 USD per year

So you can be an FBI SA and earn under 50K annually? A street cop in Oakland CA laterally transferring from another PD makes a minimum of 70K and can go as high as 87K and needs only a HS diploma or GED!

Underpaid FBI agents actually introduces an increased risk of corruption. Yeah, I am Cooper, but if you'll pass on me I'll give you $100K in cash. Not impossible.

The fact that approx. 99% of McCoy's cash loot was recovered speaks volumes about the honesty of the SAs in that arrest.

When I worked in the public defenders office, small time heroin dealers routinely reported discrepancies between the amount of cash seized and the amount reported by the police. I would always ask them if they wanted to file a complaint with internal affairs. Of course not one of them did.

377
2018 marks half a century as a skydiver. Trained by the late Perry Stevens D-51 in 1968.

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Sounds boring to me - one woman battlelilng a batallion of computer geegs about Cooper day in and day out.



Battling??? Go to Gaza if you want to see a battle. I like to think of this forum as a spirited dialogue among civilized colleagues. We jab at each other once in a while, but there is no blood.

Jo, I agree that Duane did many very odd things. Some of them are highly puzzling to me. None of them positively make him Cooper or even link him to the crime peripherally, in my opinion.

I am not Cooper, but some things in my history could be seen as consistent with being Cooper: travel to Seattle in 71, skydiver with surplus gear experience, plane nut with 727 manual, broke, copy of Cooper hijack newspaper story, etc.

The point I keep trying to make is that there is a huge gigantic difference between evidence that says you could be Cooper and evidence that proves you are.

377
2018 marks half a century as a skydiver. Trained by the late Perry Stevens D-51 in 1968.

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To the skydivers out there,

From Snows video we now know that a hop and pop out of a 727 is possible. I am assuming that the 727 in the video was likely flying just above stall speed and Coopers jet was going somewhat faster.

So the question remains, if this faster speed would put you into the speed threshold were your much more likely to get hurt.

To that end I have a question. When you guys go head down, it is my understanding that you can reach almost 200 mph. What happens if you pop the chute in that situation?? I am thinking it must have happened more than once.

Thanks
Tk

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To that end I have a question. When you guys go head down, it is my understanding that you can reach almost 200 mph. What happens if you pop the chute in that situation?? I am thinking it must have happened more than once.

Thanks
Tk



Parachutes have certain parameters within which they operate to work properly, including opening speeds. I don't have my rig with me at the moment to check what the max deployment speed on it is. but i do know that head down openings can (don't always) result in canopies losing lines or tearing fabric. Definitely not a situation you would want to find yourself without a reserve in. The real question is what the canopy that Cooper jumped would have done and for that we would need an old timer to chip in.
Skydiving: wasting fossil fuels just for fun.

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Also and I hate to press you but, you know the Columbia and Tina Bar firsthand.



No, I don't know these areas at all. I drive the Columbia Gorge every year. I'd sure hate to make a night jump there.

I just wonder how some of the money ended up in a sand bar if Cooper didn't land in the river.

I suppose he could have stashed it there, and ran, I think there is a much greater chance he died in that river and some of the cash floated downstream.

Rivers change course all the time, and it would be natural for the money to end up covered in sand.

I'm sure you all know the details of this night, a lot better than I do. So, take my thoughts with a grain of salt if it doesn't add up.....

I think if Cooper landed on land, and died there, someone would have found something. Hunters, hikers, and sight see'ers are everywhere these days. The country around the Columbia Gorge is forbidding country, but even the more remote places have people hiking through.

I think Cooper was swallowed up by water somewhere. That would explain why none of the money was ever spent, and why Cooper was never found.

But, that other hi-jacker who was caught in Utah and later shot to death, has me wondering. Could he have been Cooper?

So, that's my two cents worth.

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Hi Tom,

Opening at excessive speed's can and have resulted in fatalities. I have cut and paste this from the dz.com fatalities database although there is no indication that this hard opening was from excessive speed as no reason is given.


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Reports suggest this jumper had a very hard opening that did damage to him or his equipment or both. Eye-witnesses saw him in a coming down in a corkscrew spiral under his inflated main canopy. He appeared lifeless and unresponsive right after his parachute deployed and kept spiraling until he impacted the ground. There is a possibility that he very well might have been unconscious or dead prior to impact. It was his first solo jump.



There are alot of variables at work and modern RAM air parachutes behave very differently including in the manner that they open. I am to young to know much about skydiving in that time zone but I did all my training on T-10's and about 80 jumps on a C9 (photo on my profile). I had one incident where I opened the C9 and whether it was body position or speed I don't know which as I had lost altitude awareness and deployed at sub 1500 feet (as a student on timed delays my jump master thought I was deadB|) Anyway my chest mount altimeter hit me in the face and split my chin open. [:/]
Experienced jumper - someone who has made mistakes more often than I have and lived.

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but i do know that head down openings can (don't always) result in canopies losing lines or tearing fabric.



So this means it happens but do people get hurt doing it? Is jumping out of a plane at 200 and deploying head down at 200 similar?

TK



You need to compare "apples to apples".
DBC was using a round canopy. Opening characteristics are different. You can't compare
the openings of a modern square to his round.

Also, you can't make the assumption
that DBC deployed going 200mph.

First, I have jumped out of 727 at 150mph.
I waited until the air friction slowed me down to 115
before dumping.
My guess is that he would have been quite unstable
immediately after his exit (and lost both shoes).
Then, he would have done a quick freefall to slow down
and regain his stability.

Most video of 727 jumps are comparatively recent
(mid 90's), using modern gear and square canopies.

This is a question that must be answered by a
jumper with experience in rounds.

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but i do know that head down openings can (don't always) result in canopies losing lines or tearing fabric.



So this means it happens but do people get hurt doing it? Is jumping out of a plane at 200 and deploying head down at 200 similar?

TK



Even a hard opening at a normal opening speed can rupture an aorta. This is skydiving, anything can happen. I have heard of people being knocked unconscious on a head down opening, and i have also heard of both people and their canopies being fine at those opening speeds. There is no way to tell for certain what would have happened had he opened straight out the plane.

some example:
unconscious after almost head down deployment:
http://www.dropzone.com/cgi-bin/forum/gforum.cgi?post=386600;search_string=%26quot%3Bhead%20down%26quot%3B%20deployment;#386600
fine (other than whiplash) after 195 mph deployment: http://www.dropzone.com/cgi-bin/forum/gforum.cgi?post=1296437;search_string=%26quot%3Bhead%20down%26quot%3B%20deployment;#1296437
Femur broken after hard opening in normal position: http://www.dropzone.com/cgi-bin/forum/gforum.cgi?post=2550874;search_string=%26quot%3Bhead%20down%26quot%3B%20deployment;#2550874 Discussion includes other people breaking things on opening.
Not in the incidents reports but a guy at my DZ broke his femur on a hard opening a couple of years ago as well.

I seem to recall an incident where someone's reserve got shredded due to opening at too high a speed but can't find it now. IIRC the reserve was very highly loaded as well but that probably wouldn't have been an issue for Cooper.

But as I said in my original answer and happy, nigel have added to: rounds opened differently and we need someone from those days to help answer this.
We also have no idea what speed Cooper deployed at - or even if he deployed at all.
Skydiving: wasting fossil fuels just for fun.

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georger mused:
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But, Harold Ingram referenced
Vancouver Lake. Did they find something there and just keep it a secret? It's a theory.



I had done some searching on where the Ingrams were living. I believe it was in Vancouver, actually relatively close to the flight path. I'm not perfectly confident on the address. I think they may have been living with a relative, maybe the brother? they had just arrived from OK..and they left WA a couple months after the money find.

In any case, if they were "from" Vancouver, I don't think Tina Bar was a well known place name? There's not much out there. Vancouver Lake may have been the best way to quickly describe "out there"..although it is odd that "on the shore of the Columbia" doesn't come to mind first...or "up past Frenchman's Reef"...I'm not sure how developed Frenchman's was then...it's more developed now as a state beach/park thing? (although I read that they are considered "beach bums" because they don't monitor water quality...evidently there's been cases of sewage etc, at Frenchman's...

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some of the news articles mentioned finding money "three feet down"...I'm thinking now that was myth..i.e. they were really referencing the 3 foot deep trenches that were dug?

If anything was found 3 feet down, it would be under that clay layer we've discussed...so that doesn't make sense.

But yeah, we've mentioned before how we're not sure if any other fragments were found. I think Ckret said no, but it's odd that the news articles apparently quoted FBI agents as saying they had found some.
If they did, were they just thrown into the mass of "found money" and divvied up with Brian later on?

Because the FBI bill set, really doesn't have any small fragments. The FBI, if they found more, would have been small fragments......but the FBI doesn't have any small fragments...so if they found any, they gave it to Brian? doesn't make sense?

maybe they didn't find anything.

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but i do know that head down openings can (don't always) result in canopies losing lines or tearing fabric.



So this means it happens but do people get hurt doing it? Is jumping out of a plane at 200 and deploying head down at 200 similar?

TK



You need to compare "apples to apples".
DBC was using a round canopy. Opening characteristics are different. You can't compare
the openings of a modern square to his round.

Also, you can't make the assumption
that DBC deployed going 200mph.

First, I have jumped out of 727 at 150mph.
I waited until the air friction slowed me down to 115
before dumping.
My guess is that he would have been quite unstable
immediately after his exit (and lost both shoes).
Then, he would have done a quick freefall to slow down
and regain his stability.

Most video of 727 jumps are comparatively recent
(mid 90's), using modern gear and square canopies.

This is a question that must be answered by a
jumper with experience in rounds.



These issues were thoroughly discussed by the old timers here early last year - around March 08?

G.

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Jo said:
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Sounds boring to me - one woman battlelilng a batallion of computer geegs about Cooper day in and day out



Jo, I created a wordle of your last post. I like it! Attached. It would be a good part of a poster for your movie.

see http://www.wordle.net if you're curious about what a wordle is.

It would be very cool to get all of your posts and create a wordle of them all.

Hey I noticed that when I posted a bunch of Cooper vids the same week..i.e. Carr showing the evidence, and my 12/24/08 Cooper sketch animation, that so far, the Cooper sketch animation has the most views. I think if I had made it longer, and maybe more swearing, it'd have gone viral. :)

Although the 727 air drop test is doing pretty good. I think because I tagged it with CIA.

Hey Senses Fail bills itself as "post-hardcore" Their D.B Cooper song wasn't on their US CD, but available elsewhere. They're going on tour this year.

What's funny, is there's a vid of a kid playing drums to the D.B. Cooper song. In his mind, D.B. Cooper is just some intense drumming in his basement. Yah!

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Nah1TBua6rg
I like it!

AND: I saw this note claiming that because of no wing engines, that the flaps were better on the 727, so it was the best flying at low speeds compared to other jets of the time...that's interesting, no! Not just the aft stairway, but good low speed stability! (although Cooper didn't force it to it's minimum speed)

"Due to the absence of wing-mounted engines, leading-edge lift enhancement equipment (Krueger, or hinged, flaps on the inner portion of the leading edge, and extendable leading-edge slats on the remainder of the leading edge), and trailing-edge lift enhancement equipment (triple-slotted[4], aft-moving flaps) could be used on the entire wing. The combination of these high-lift devices produced a maximum wing lift coefficient of 3.6 (based on the flap-retracted wing area). Thus the 727 could fly with great stability at very low speeds compared to other early jets. "

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orange1 said:
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This is skydiving, anything can happen.



That seems like the most rational thing I've ever heard from a jumper here!

Some more whuffo musings (although I'm apparently not allowed to use that word? Maybe I have to use full sentences to describe anything, rather than shorthand? JOKE!)

I've always wondered why you guys don't practice more uses of the reserve...i.e. it would seem there should be more widespread use of reserves to make sure that when you need them, things will always go right. And not just deploying them, but the full process of going from main to reserve.

I saw a video where some factory team or something did a bunch of cutaways just to be cool on the video.

But I would think, if I was going to rely on a reserve, that I'd want to do 2-3 planned cutaways a year, just so I'd be more confident unplanned ones (with more chaos) would go smoothly.

It's almost guaranteed that there's a fail rate associated with any process that's not used a lot..either because of insufficient info about the process due to disuse, changes that weren't discovered prior, or whatever.

If the overall reserve process, is something that people aren't confident enough about, to do on purpose in controlled situations, 2-3 times every year, shouldn't that make one wonder?

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some of the news articles mentioned finding money "three feet down"...I'm thinking now that was myth..i.e. they were really referencing the 3 foot deep trenches that were dug?

If anything was found 3 feet down, it would be under that clay layer we've discussed...so that doesn't make sense.

But yeah, we've mentioned before how we're not sure if any other fragments were found. I think Ckret said no, but it's odd that the news articles apparently quoted FBI agents as saying they had found some.
If they did, were they just thrown into the mass of "found money" and divvied up with Brian later on?

Because the FBI bill set, really doesn't have any small fragments. The FBI, if they found more, would have been small fragments......but the FBI doesn't have any small fragments...so if they found any, they gave it to Brian? doesn't make sense?

maybe they didn't find anything.



Harold & Patricia lived at 1500 Market St Vancouver.

They either lived with a brother or brother-in-law.
(The accounts I have conflict). One account says
they took the money home where they showed it
to Ingram's brother-in-law who took the rest of the
rubber bands off..

Mrs Crystal Ingram lived at 2714 K Street, Apt #2,
Vancouver. Crystal's says the money was found
by both children playing together near a fire that
Harold had built near the water's edge, with Harold
Ingram a good distance away exploring for firewood.
When the children found the money, just below the
surface, Brian called to his father to come see -
Patricia and Crystal were together off looking for firewood and talking in another direction -

Crystal Ingram's account is "near the water's edge",
not 20-40 feet up the incline away from the water's
edge.

When the Patricia and Harold Ingram sued to claim
the money I wonder what account they gave the
Court, and who gave that account? To my knowledge
Crystal Ingram was not part of that lawsuit?

The money was discovered at approx 3:00-3:30pm
on Sunday afternoon Feb 10 1980 after the Ingrams
had been out in the area the entire afternoon. The
Ingrams did not arrive home until after dark ~7:00pm
at which time various members of the Ingram family
handled and examined the money spread out on a
kitchen table. Others were contacted to come look at
the discovery. Some came, some didn't. It does
appear nobody in the Ingrams associated the
money with DB Cooper (that connection did not
surface until the next day after Harold talked to
people at his workplace, U-Cart Manufacturing Co
at 63rd and Andersen, Vancouver WA).

And yes, there were blackened bills, as found.

G.

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377 had some good thoughts on that FBI hiring blitz I posted about. We do talk about FBI and what they do and don''t do, so FBI is on topic. I mentioned months ago that it felt like 1971 to me..
was reading Todd Harrison today, and while he tends to think about extremes, so he can bound risk, it's interesting that the paragraph at bottom is a reasonable thing for a reasonable person to say....

It makes one wonder about just who or what the enemy is, and how we're focusing FBI/CIA and why. It really struck me as funny that the CIA would get worked up about an outsider (Panetta) leading them. That's usually a sure sign that things are messed up.

Be interested in hearing what Orange1 thinks about US econ/political wise...although I can understand if she wants to hold her tongue!

Todd Harrison (musing about predictions for US)
"The not-so-quiet riot

The age of austerity has officially arrived and we'll see a steady stream of social strife as the rejection of wealth increases in size and scope. While societal acrimony began to percolate last year, this dynamic will manifest through unrest and geopolitical conflict as we edge ahead.
This is, without question, the single biggest socioeconomic risk as we stand at a critical crossroads. On one side, orderly debt destruction ultimately will pave the way for true globalization. On the other, there is isolationism and protectionism as sovereign nations protect their interests at any cost.
If calmer heads don't prevail and the global community takes a turn for the worse, history books likely will point to "shock and awe" as the beginning of World War III."

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377 had some good thoughts on that FBI hiring blitz I posted about. We do talk about FBI and what they do and don''t do, so FBI is on topic. I mentioned months ago that it felt like 1971 to me..
was reading Todd Harrison today, and while he tends to think about extremes, so he can bound risk, it's interesting that the paragraph at bottom is a reasonable thing for a reasonable person to say....

It makes one wonder about just who or what the enemy is, and how we're focusing FBI/CIA and why. It really struck me as funny that the CIA would get worked up about an outsider (Panetta) leading them. That's usually a sure sign that things are messed up.

Be interested in hearing what Orange1 thinks about US econ/political wise...although I can understand if she wants to hold her tongue!

Todd Harrison (musing about predictions for US)
"The not-so-quiet riot

The age of austerity has officially arrived and we'll see a steady stream of social strife as the rejection of wealth increases in size and scope. While societal acrimony began to percolate last year, this dynamic will manifest through unrest and geopolitical conflict as we edge ahead.
This is, without question, the single biggest socioeconomic risk as we stand at a critical crossroads. On one side, orderly debt destruction ultimately will pave the way for true globalization. On the other, there is isolationism and protectionism as sovereign nations protect their interests at any cost.
If calmer heads don't prevail and the global community takes a turn for the worse, history books likely will point to "shock and awe" as the beginning of World War III."



so you get to test your theories. Lucky us!
Better adjust your cushion.

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And yes, there were blackened bills, as found.



I suppose it was ruled out that there was any charring of the bills from burning?

I've been reading about pollution in the Columbia. Evidently a high level of PCB's have been found (warning on eating clams from the area near Tena Bar/Frenchman's Reef). Also pollution due to the Alcoa smelter down closer to Vancouver. They're cleaning it up now.

"The ALCOA (also known as Vancouver Smelter) site, located on the northern bank of the Columbia River about 4 miles west of Interstate 5 in Vancouver, Clark County, Washington, has been proposed for the National Priorities List. The site consists of three waste piles containing about 66,000 tons of waste (spent potlinings and alumina insulation) that were deposited on the north bank of the Columbia River by ALCOA between 1973 and 1981. ALCOA has since sold the aluminum smelter to another company, VANALCO. The contaminants detected in the groundwater in the area surrounding the piles include cyanide, fluoride, and trichloroethene (TCE). The ALCOA site is of potential public health concern because humans may be exposed to hazardous substances at concentrations that may result in adverse health effects."


Also, high levels of mercury in fish and clams, in Columbia and Vancouver Lake?

The clams were apparently "introduced" in the '70s by immigrants from Asian countries.

Pesticides still, like DDT, dioxin?

Wonder if the bills might have absorbed any of these more organic residues?

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Harold & Patricia lived at 1500 Market St Vancouver.



I can't find any Market St. in Vancouver.

The address I had (forgot the source) was 2517 E 35th St. Vancouver, which is just E of I5

possibly shared with David R. Ingram, who is two years older than Harold?

Where did you get the Market St. info? is it wrong? do any of my notes above jibe with any notes you have?

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I've been reading about pollution in the Columbia. Evidently a high level of PCB's have been found (warning on eating clams from the area near Tena Bar/Frenchman's Reef). Also pollution due to the Alcoa smelter down closer to Vancouver. They're cleaning it up now.

"The ALCOA (also known as Vancouver Smelter) site, located on the northern bank of the Columbia River about 4 miles west of Interstate 5 in Vancouver, Clark County, Washington, has been proposed for the National Priorities List. The site consists of three waste piles containing about 66,000 tons of waste (spent potlinings and alumina insulation) that were deposited on the north bank of the Columbia River by ALCOA between 1973 and 1981. ALCOA has since sold the aluminum smelter to another company, VANALCO. The contaminants detected in the groundwater in the area surrounding the piles include cyanide, fluoride, and trichloroethene (TCE). The ALCOA site is of potential public health concern because humans may be exposed to hazardous substances at concentrations that may result in adverse health effects."



{ding ding ding} for those who like building theories on coincidences and yada yada yada...one of the air america guys whose link i posted a while ago as working in africa (as a possible place to get a tan before the hijack and disappear into after)? he was working for Alcoa IIRC...
Skydiving: wasting fossil fuels just for fun.

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And yes, there were blackened bills, as found.



The bundles of money were wet when found
near the water's edge; the campfire never touched
the money. No evidence of charing from any cause.

Quite obviously, after finding the money Harold
and the others turned up sand everywhere looking
for more. Apparently, nothing more was found.

After Crystal Ingram went public more money was
turned over to the FBI via Crystal Ingram, with Harold and Patricia Ingram remaining silent.

Finally, around Feb 20th 1980, stress surfaced in
the Ingram family. Patricia Ingram began voicing her
contention and making calls to the effect that BRIAN
should be given an award for finding the Cooper money. It is alleged, Patricia and Harold Ingram contacted a radio station trying to get the radio
station to support Brian getting an award. (The FBI responded to inquiries, saying there was no reward.).

Crystal Ingram surfaced in defense of herself and
her daughter contending it was her daughter Denise who had actually found the money, while Brian was
playing with the fire nearby. Crystal Ingram stated
if anyone was going to get an award it should be
shared between her daughter and Brian.

Patricia Ingram rebutted saying Crystal's account was false, even as Crystal Ingram had already turned in more of the Cooper money to the FBI, in behalf everyone involved!

Present when the money was found were Crytsal
Ingram and her five year old daughter Denise,
and Harold and Patricia Ingram (married) with their
son Brian.

Harold had built the fire. Brian was playing with the fire. Denise was off to Brian's side poking in the sand and she turned a bundle of something up. Brian looked over at Denise and saw she had turned something up and went over to finish turning the object up, and Brian called to his father to come look - who was off at some distance looking for firewood. Crystal and Patricia were away in another direction talking and looking for firewood. That in a nutshell is Crystal Ingram's
account.

Crystal Ingram was in fact, the divorced wife of David
Ingram, Harold's brother.

G.

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Ah now a lot more info is coming out about the Ingrams.

You remember how Brian's ex-wife got on suite101 with Jo and was talking about how the money was something that just "wasn't discussed" in the family. She sensed some weird vibe.

She went off on weird tangent theories, but I always wondered if her vibe meant there was more to the story. From what georger is saying, there was?

The Market Sts. in Portland are usually prefaced by SE or SW, from what I can see.

But I don't think the Ingrams were in Portland???

From what I have, I thought Harold and Patricia were at the same address in Vancouver with David, but that could be wrong.

We do have the picture of Brian playing in the snow taken by photographers after the find. It's not at Tena Bar. It's likely to be near where they lived. We also have a picture of the Ingrams in their place on a couch, but that wouldn't help.

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