snowmman 3 #6926 January 5, 2009 just two snaps from http://www.nortekusa.com/principles/ChannelFlow.html showing that channel flow can be complicated, even ignoring turbulent flow. Here's a textbook that has a lot of pages available in Google Books. Maybe georger can get Hubert on the panel? "Environmental Hydraulics of Open Channel Flows" By Hubert Chanson http://books.google.com/books?id=7CIl-T0A1qwC&pg=PA81&lpg=PA81 Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
snowmman 3 #6927 January 5, 2009 I think the snagging power line analysis is different than water landing...and a little more complicated. You have to take into consideratio the vertical height of the lines/parachute plus it's oscillation and the vertical area of power lines, in addition to the relative horizontal area they occupy as a DZ. here's the thought experiment. Most power lines (except the higher voltage ones) parallel roads. Now the probability that you'll snag a power line, is probably higher than the idea of your shoe touching a road when you land... There's some complicated thinking about the flight pattern.. Like if an airplane flew horizontally only at 30 feet off the ground, all the time, the probablity of hitting power lines would be 100%. If Canopies descended vertically only, the probability of power line hitting would be less. Same if there was no wind. So there's a lot more issues for analyzing power line probability? The supersitions about power lines are probably based in fact. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
377 22 #6928 January 5, 2009 QuoteThe supersitions about power lines are probably based in fact. hmm, never thought about it that way but you have a really good point. Oh Snowmman, you mythbuster. 3772018 marks half a century as a skydiver. Trained by the late Perry Stevens D-51 in 1968. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
snowmman 3 #6929 January 5, 2009 QuoteQuoteThe supersitions about power lines are probably based in fact. hmm, never thought about it that way but you have a really good point. Oh Snowmman, you mythbuster. 377 yeah, you have to think about analyzing the flight path below, say 100 ft, not just where your feet touch earth...and the critical object is not just your feet, but this "thing" that's bigger than an airplane? i.e. you plus lines plus canopy. Also: even if the power line itself is narrow (less than 1") if there are multiple lines, separated by 10 ft or 30 ft, then it's the same as having a 10 or 30 ft wall, because of the size of person plus lines plus canopy. Another way to think about it: You could probably jump near a road with cars going 60mph on the road and not have to worry about landing on the road and getting killed. (just keep your feet up if you end up crossing the road low). Way more likely to hit the power lines. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
377 22 #6930 January 5, 2009 Bet somewhere in WW2 they did a snag probablility analysis like yours for barrage balloons. My instructor, Perry Stevens, taught me to think of myself as a big blimp when flying, not a person. There is a lot of frontal area in a man under canopy. Ignore it at your peril. If Cooper went into the Columbia with an open canopy and drowned, what is the likelihood that he would remain undiscovered? I guess the canpopy could snag on some obstruction and stay submerged. Isn't the bottom relatively smooth (according to the nautical charts)? Seems like sooner or later it would get dragged to somewhere it would be seen or dredged up. 3772018 marks half a century as a skydiver. Trained by the late Perry Stevens D-51 in 1968. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
snowmman 3 #6931 January 5, 2009 I was just wondering about something. Someone with jump experience probably wouldn't spot on the Vancouver lights? would worry about landing in power lines and the Columbia river. Would wait until just outside of Portland..i.e. know to wait for a little after the lights? Can't see how a jumper would jump right when he saw the vancouver lights. We've been saying this as a theory for a while..but doesn't it make no sense (for a jumper?) Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
377 22 #6932 January 5, 2009 A good point Snow, but sometimes the city lights do call, pychologically speaking. They mean warmth, food, transportation, places to blend into a crowd. If you wait too long, you are literally out in the cold with a long and unknown path back to civilization. You wouldn't want to exit right over a city but you wouldnt want to be too far from it either without predetermined pickup or rendevous. A wet cold guy without a car 20 miles from a city might find it hard to stay obscure if he used roads to get back to civilization. Lets see what some other jumpers say. 3772018 marks half a century as a skydiver. Trained by the late Perry Stevens D-51 in 1968. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
georger 268 #6933 January 6, 2009 QuoteQuoteThe supersitions about power lines are probably based in fact. hmm, never thought about it that way but you have a really good point. Oh Snowmman, you mythbuster. 377 aint she great! Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
377 22 #6934 January 6, 2009 http://cgi.ebay.com/Just-added-FBI-100th-Anniv-Aviation-Patch-DB-COOPER_W0QQitemZ230317898934QQcmdZViewItemQQptZLH_DefaultDomain_0?hash=item230317898934&_trksid=p3286.c0.m14&_trkparms=72%3A1205|66%3A4|65%3A12|39%3A1|240%3A1318|301%3A1|293%3A1|294%3A2002018 marks half a century as a skydiver. Trained by the late Perry Stevens D-51 in 1968. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
skyjack71 0 #6935 January 6, 2009 Obsession or only logical explanation: Jo Stated: "I have only speculated there was money in that sack - what else would he have thrown into the river with such ceremony." Georger Replied: Quote You have a lot more than speculated. You have maintained it is true for years. You have pinned your whole theory on it, or else what has the last thirteen years been for? Buffalo Dancing? What else would he have thrown? His old lunch from five days earlier, old IRS records, old personal documents he wanted to part with forever, or maybe something of yours you didn’t know he had, maybe an old medical report? Who knows what was in the sack. How can anyone know? You say you don't know but then you jump to Cooper money. I don’t know. Maybe you need a lobotamy to get rid of this Obsession? ======================== ======================== Obsession, speculation or the truth To ALL: Put aside all of your knowledge (education and life experiences) aside for a few moments. Pretend it was your Father who confessed to your mother and to you. Pretend he had been evasive about his past (you were all of 16 at the time) and you and your mother knew little or nothing about his life other than the 17 yrs she was married to him…what your mother did know about the man was what I knew about Duane Weber. Yes, I do more than speculation, because it is the only thing that makes sense. Not one of you has been able to offer an explanation that EXPLAINS all of the things he did and said and showed me. You can take just take one detail and dispute that - BUT, not one of you nor the FBI or anyone else has offered an explanation for the complete sequence of events in 1979 and over 17 yrs that makes one iota of sense - other than to make out-landish outburst declaring I am obssessed or out of my mind. There are times it is easier for me to just say - I speculated. Why would I speculate there was money in that bag for instance? The sequence of events - the confession - the money being found not too far from there a few months later - his resigning when the paper announces the money was found, his efforts to keep me from seeing a TV special about Cooper about that time, the strange things he said and did and showed me on that trip. I am not just adding up the things from that trip, but 17 yrs of living with him and not even counting the yrs I have spent digging into his past - what I have been told by ex-wives, step-children, friends and those of unknown connections, prison records, family stories - etc. This has been a long and hurtful process - with absolutely no help from the authorities other than contocted statements made that do not co-incide with the information provided to me and others and does not match the records that they (the FBI promised) but never provided. Remember that Carr promised me the records and made things available on the forum that I had never been provided and have NOT received to this day documentation that what he stated in the forum is true. I have ever reason to speculate and to believe that certain things are true until it is proven to me that it is not. I have never pinned my theory on any one specific thing, but a whole sequence of events and things. There are things I “hint” at because if I repeated somethings I didn’t understand when they were said - how am I expected to relate to others “what I think it meant“. Take my story in its entirety - my accounting of the trip and all of the other contributing factors over a 17 yrs period of time - too many odd things...combine that with the things that I learned about Duane after his death. Pretend that I am someone you personally know - a person never known to tell tales or exaggerate - a person you would trust with your life - a person whose past is not built on lies or deception. None of you really know me, but pretend I am that person and recount what I have told you (NOT what you or other have interperted what I have said to mean). Look at that person face to face and tell them they are dislusional or obsessed - because you can dispute some of the observations made by the individual. What that person has told you has been told as an observation and researching in the only ways available to her. Judgements based on parts of the story being discredited are not fair. I challenge those who can say these things - to go with me from the begining in PERSON. Take it from the trip to SLC and Seattle and Tahoe and then back to Co. to the day the paper announced the money find. Go with me to AL and then to GA and VA and all of the side trips made - right back to FL. I challenge someone who might have the capabililties to find out about an old airline ticket charged to my account in 1990 - find someone who will have those records going back to that time - what was the location for that ticket. Find out who the man is in the SLC shot. Find the missing yrs. Put ALL of it together the way I have and there is only one logical answer..for the story in its entirety. Surely there is someone out there rich enough and curious enough to want to find the truth. The truth is within the things I have told and made available to the FBI and others. The crime is so old and the legend so powerful - hindered by the expense of finding the truth along with records that have been seal forever....D.B. Cooper - AKA Dan Cooper - AKA Duane L. Weber - AKA John C. Collins - the SkyJack of 1971 will remain forever unsolved . We can add to that the 1998 statement repeatedly made by the FBI stating they investigated Duane L. Weber. A statement which I can prove was falsified. He may have been checked out more thorough at a later date, but in 1998 - the information they had was incomplete and incorrect. Seems like a couple of countries outside of the USA are more interested in Cooper than the officials of the USA - ?Copyright 2006, 2007, 2008, 2009, 2010, 2011, 2012 2013, 2014, 2015 by Jo Weber Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
377 22 #6936 January 6, 2009 http://cgi.ebay.com/FBI-100th-Anniv-Aviation-Security-Patch-Set-x5-PATCHES_W0QQitemZ230317575761QQcmdZViewItemQQptZLH_DefaultDomain_0?hash=item230317575761&_trksid=p3911.c0.m14&_trkparms=72%3A1205|66%3A4|65%3A12|39%3A1|240%3A13182018 marks half a century as a skydiver. Trained by the late Perry Stevens D-51 in 1968. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
377 22 #6937 January 6, 2009 QuoteYes, I do more than speculation, because it is the only thing that makes sense. SmileNot one of you has been able to offer an explanation that EXPLAINS all of the things he did and said and showed me. Jo, What if Duane was pretending to be Cooper? Wouldn't that also fit the facts as you know them? What fact in Duane's past tells you that he was Cooper rather than a pretender? 3772018 marks half a century as a skydiver. Trained by the late Perry Stevens D-51 in 1968. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
georger 268 #6938 January 6, 2009 Quotere: georger's theories about river flow. back in the day, I actually did some lab experiments with laminar flow of water across the diameter of a pipe. We used intersecting laser beams, and I think scattering from particles in the water to measure velocity across the pipe. Something like that... Doesn't really apply, but you can see on the web, people who actually do research and measurements about river flows talking about laminar flow and turbulent flow and the effect of meanders changing the point of highest flow from side to side. In any case, georger, according to your theory of river behavior, how does sand get deposited on shorelines, and where does it come from? Sand is very small particles...may or may not behave the same as say a boat left adrift in the middle of the Columbia. But what's your theory about the sand on the shores of the Columbia. How did it get there, and why in particular spots more than others? This line began with Steve1 making his post - go back and read it. I answered asking Steve1 if he knew how debris got taken to Tina Bar, the route. Now you jump in and start Snowblowing. I cannot answer your questions because obviously I am asking the same questions, originally! If you have the answers why not post them? You keep talking about my THEORY. What theory? I say "it seems to me" things behind Catapillar Island have an easy route to spread across Tina Bar IF water levels rise in the channel behind Catapillar Island and there is flow in the direction of Tina Bar straight ahead. It seems like a simple association to me. But I dont know. That is why I posted - to explore it. If you say no then obvious it cannot be! So prove it. Perhaps a few defintiions are in order to clear Snow's blizzard up: Laminar flow Laminar flow generally happens when dealing with small pipes and low flow velocities. Laminar flow can be regarded as a series of liquid cylinders in the pipe, where the innermost parts flow the fastest, and the cylinder touching the pipe isn't moving at all. Shear stress depends almost only on the viscosity - μ - and is independent of density - ρ. Turbulent flow In turbulent flow vortices, eddies and wakes make the flow unpredictable. Turbulent flow happens in general at high flow rates and with larger pipes. Shear stress for turbulent flow is a function of the density - ρ. Transitional flow Transitional flow is a mixture of laminar and turbulent flow, with turbulence in the center of the pipe, and laminar flow near the edges. Each of these flows behave in different manners in terms of their frictional energy loss while flowing, and have different equations that predict their behavior. Turbulent or laminar flow is determined by the dimensionless Reynolds Number. Reynolds Number The Reynolds number is important in analyzing any type of flow when there is substantial velocity gradient (i.e. shear.) It indicates the relative significance of the viscous effect compared to the inertia effect. The Reynolds number is proportional to inertial force divided by viscous force. The flow is * laminar when Re < 2300 * transient when 2300 < Re < 4000 * turbulent when 4000 < Re G. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
georger 268 #6939 January 6, 2009 QuoteWe've discussed this before, but Cooper might also have landed on the wild western side of Hayden Island. And then the money raised during flood conditions. So it's not just a matter of analyzing water to land ratios for probability. Places with low human traffic, that get flooded, like Hayden Island, or the channel on the south of Hayden island, also have to get included. If Cooper spotted using Vancouver lights, things could have been very bad, probablity wise? (Hayden Island plus that channel probably doubles the bad odds?) bdd odds? things could have been very bad, probablity wise? (Hayden Island bad odds for what? What are you talking about or saying? Are you talking about Cooper's survival, or odds for an object going to T Bar, ..... not a mind reader. G Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
georger 268 #6940 January 6, 2009 Quote16% is low, far more probable that he landed dry than wet. Add steerable canopy and some ability to see hazards in time to avoid them, you are probably at 5%. did I miss a post? 16% of what? G Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites georger 268 #6941 January 6, 2009 QuoteBet somewhere in WW2 they did a snag probablility analysis like yours for barrage balloons. My instructor, Perry Stevens, taught me to think of myself as a big blimp when flying, not a person. There is a lot of frontal area in a man under canopy. Ignore it at your peril. If Cooper went into the Columbia with an open canopy and drowned, what is the likelihood that he would remain undiscovered? I guess the canpopy could snag on some obstruction and stay submerged. Isn't the bottom relatively smooth (according to the nautical charts)? Seems like sooner or later it would get dragged to somewhere it would be seen or dredged up. 377 Im surprised nobody has mentioned chutes filling wth water and floating or billowing to the surface in the current if caught in water that isnt too deep? You mentioned using chutes as sea anchors... or drift anchors. G. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites georger 268 #6942 January 6, 2009 Quote Obsession or only logical explanation: Jo Stated: "I have only speculated there was money in that sack - what else would he have thrown into the river with such ceremony." Georger Replied: Quote You have a lot more than speculated. You have maintained it is true for years. You have pinned your whole theory on it, or else what has the last thirteen years been for? Buffalo Dancing? What else would he have thrown? His old lunch from five days earlier, old IRS records, old personal documents he wanted to part with forever, or maybe something of yours you didn’t know he had, maybe an old medical report? Who knows what was in the sack. How can anyone know? You say you don't know but then you jump to Cooper money. I don’t know. Maybe you need a lobotamy to get rid of this Obsession? ======================== ======================== Obsession, speculation or the truth To ALL: Put aside all of your knowledge (education and life experiences) aside for a few moments. Pretend it was your Father who confessed to your mother and to you. Pretend he had been evasive about his past (you were all of 16 at the time) and you and your mother knew little or nothing about his life other than the 17 yrs she was married to him…what your mother did know about the man was what I knew about Duane Weber. Yes, I do more than speculation, because it is the only thing that makes sense. Not one of you has been able to offer an explanation that EXPLAINS all of the things he did and said and showed me. You can take just take one detail and dispute that - BUT, not one of you nor the FBI or anyone else has offered an explanation for the complete sequence of events in 1979 and over 17 yrs that makes one iota of sense - other than to make out-landish outburst declaring I am obssessed or out of my mind. There are times it is easier for me to just say - I speculated. Why would I speculate there was money in that bag for instance? The sequence of events - the confession - the money being found not too far from there a few months later - his resigning when the paper announces the money was found, his efforts to keep me from seeing a TV special about Cooper about that time, the strange things he said and did and showed me on that trip. I am not just adding up the things from that trip, but 17 yrs of living with him and not even counting the yrs I have spent digging into his past - what I have been told by ex-wives, step-children, friends and those of unknown connections, prison records, family stories - etc. This has been a long and hurtful process - with absolutely no help from the authorities other than contocted statements made that do not co-incide with the information provided to me and others and does not match the records that they (the FBI promised) but never provided. Remember that Carr promised me the records and made things available on the forum that I had never been provided and have NOT received to this day documentation that what he stated in the forum is true. I have ever reason to speculate and to believe that certain things are true until it is proven to me that it is not. I have never pinned my theory on any one specific thing, but a whole sequence of events and things. There are things I “hint” at because if I repeated somethings I didn’t understand when they were said - how am I expected to relate to others “what I think it meant“. Take my story in its entirety - my accounting of the trip and all of the other contributing factors over a 17 yrs period of time - too many odd things...combine that with the things that I learned about Duane after his death. Pretend that I am someone you personally know - a person never known to tell tales or exaggerate - a person you would trust with your life - a person whose past is not built on lies or deception. None of you really know me, but pretend I am that person and recount what I have told you (NOT what you or other have interperted what I have said to mean). Look at that person face to face and tell them they are dislusional or obsessed - because you can dispute some of the observations made by the individual. What that person has told you has been told as an observation and researching in the only ways available to her. Judgements based on parts of the story being discredited are not fair. I challenge those who can say these things - to go with me from the begining in PERSON. Take it from the trip to SLC and Seattle and Tahoe and then back to Co. to the day the paper announced the money find. Go with me to AL and then to GA and VA and all of the side trips made - right back to FL. I challenge someone who might have the capabililties to find out about an old airline ticket charged to my account in 1990 - find someone who will have those records going back to that time - what was the location for that ticket. Find out who the man is in the SLC shot. Find the missing yrs. Put ALL of it together the way I have and there is only one logical answer..for the story in its entirety. Surely there is someone out there rich enough and curious enough to want to find the truth. The truth is within the things I have told and made available to the FBI and others. The crime is so old and the legend so powerful - hindered by the expense of finding the truth along with records that have been seal forever....D.B. Cooper - AKA Dan Cooper - AKA Duane L. Weber - AKA John C. Collins - the SkyJack of 1971 will remain forever unsolved . We can add to that the 1998 statement repeatedly made by the FBI stating they investigated Duane L. Weber. A statement which I can prove was falsified. He may have been checked out more thorough at a later date, but in 1998 - the information they had was incomplete and incorrect. Seems like a couple of countries outside of the USA are more interested in Cooper than the officials of the USA - ? I appreciate your sentiments unfortunately all good things must come to an end and I wont be engaging in this dialogue further. I just see no point to it. Good luck with your quest. Georger Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites Orange1 0 #6943 January 6, 2009 Quote16% is low, far more probable that he landed dry than wet. Add steerable canopy and some ability to see hazards in time to avoid them, you are probably at 5%. Then again, steerable canopy + some ability to see hazards + stress could well = object fixation... particularly if not that experienced.Skydiving: wasting fossil fuels just for fun. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites Orange1 0 #6944 January 6, 2009 QuoteQuoteYes, I do more than speculation, because it is the only thing that makes sense. Not one of you has been able to offer an explanation that EXPLAINS all of the things he did and said and showed me. Jo, That would be because we are investigating DB Cooper, not Duane Weber. so no-one, except maybe Sluggo, is or was actively looking at piecing the Duane pieces together. There are explanations for the stuff, but none you want to believe. Duane was not the only person who confessed to being Cooper. Gossett's son is convinced his dad was Cooper, too. (I hope that was "nice enough" for 377 and Snow.)Skydiving: wasting fossil fuels just for fun. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites georger 268 #6945 January 6, 2009 QuoteQuote16% is low, far more probable that he landed dry than wet. Add steerable canopy and some ability to see hazards in time to avoid them, you are probably at 5%. Then again, steerable canopy + some ability to see hazards + stress could well = object fixation... particularly if not that experienced. You cant discount the reduced depth-distance perception at night. Its an inevitable part of night vision, skilled parachutist or not. In fact it is one of the items that would select between skilled vs. not skilled. Add to this foggy, misty, windy conditions that night which has not been mentioned; if that was the case. (One report given months ago mentioned 5000 ft visibility at Vancouver?) Maybe Snow knows. G. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites steve1 5 #6946 January 6, 2009 I've heard steerable canopy mentioned a few times to miss the water. It should be noted that parachutes of that time period were not very steerable, and had little forward speed. If Cooper openned high enough, he may have been able to steer away from the river. Seeing as how this was a night jump, I'd bet he didn't even know he was over the river until he hit water. I don't know what type of parachutes he was given, as I have not read all the posts. Cooper may have had a para-commander. It was advertised to have about a 15 mph forward speed (if I remember right). Most skydivers said it had a lot less speed than that. If he had a 7 T-U, the forward speed would be about 1/2 of a para-commander..... I just have my doubts whether Cooper could steer very far, to miss a huge body of water like the Columbia River. I also doubt he even knew it was there until he hit water. In the Army I made a fair number of night jumps with equipment. On a couple of those jumps I never saw the ground until I hit. It was that dark. If there was a lot of moonlight and stars, he may have known he was over water in advance. Weren't the skies over cast that night? This would make a huge difference on visibility. I haven't read most of these posts. I'm sure this has probably been discussed earlier. Excuse my ignorance on this.... Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites 377 22 #6947 January 6, 2009 Good points Steve. I have over 100 jumps on surplus rounds (T, TU, LL mods etc) and echo your observations about their poor performance as aircraft. From what I have read, Cooper had a steerable 28 foot C9 bailout canopy, which would certainly have little forward drive. I always viewed my surplus round canopies as rotatable rather than steerable if there was much wind. Sure, I know about vectors, but when the wind was blowing hard it seemed like all you could change was the view angle rather than the destination. Wish we knew more about visibility and landing area that night. If the body of water was very large and there were no nearby lights to define a shoreline, it sure would be easy to mistake the Columbia for dirt and take no measures to avoid it. Wouldn't that be a bitch to pull off the heist of the century, get a good deployment out of a 727, be coming down onto what looked like a nice flat landing area and then splash into deep frigid water? 3772018 marks half a century as a skydiver. Trained by the late Perry Stevens D-51 in 1968. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites 377 22 #6948 January 6, 2009 QuoteIm surprised nobody has mentioned chutes filling wth water and floating or billowing to the surface in the current if caught in water that isnt too deep? You mentioned using chutes as sea anchors... or drift anchors. G. They do inflate and billow very well in water but do not float or rise to the surface, at least in my deep water experience. I once watched a sailboat preparing to deploy a para sea anchor off his bow without a float or a trip line (attached to the apex for collapsing and retrieving the chute). I called him on the radio and he answered. I politely warned him that he needed a float and a trip line. He disagreed and told me that the wind would keep his boat horizontal to the canopy and argued with me. I wished him good luck and told him I'd stand by as he might be needing help soon. There was a big swell and 35-40 kts of wind. After a short time the chute sunk and pretty soon the line from his bow was pointing nearly straight down and he was burying his bow in the waves. The bow couldn't lift as it was being held down by the deployed canopy. He had to go to the bow at considerable risk (seas were breaking over him) cut his line and abandon his chute. It might have sunk him had he not jettisoned it. 3772018 marks half a century as a skydiver. Trained by the late Perry Stevens D-51 in 1968. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites 377 22 #6949 January 6, 2009 Quote Quote Quote Yes, I do more than speculation, because it is the only thing that makes sense. Not one of you has been able to offer an explanation that EXPLAINS all of the things he did and said and showed me. Jo, That would be because we are investigating DB Cooper, not Duane Weber. so no-one, except maybe Sluggo, is or was actively looking at piecing the Duane pieces together. There are explanations for the stuff, but none you want to believe. Duane was not the only person who confessed to being Cooper. Gossett's son is convinced his dad was Cooper, too. (I hope that was "nice enough" for 377 and Snow.) Indeed it was "nice enough" Orange 3772018 marks half a century as a skydiver. Trained by the late Perry Stevens D-51 in 1968. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites snowmman 3 #6950 January 6, 2009 The all-caps text below is directly from the fbi web page. Maybe they have 14-year-olds doing their web pages, like everyone else does? This is supposedly the biggest hiring blitz since 9/11. I think Ckret would probably give us all a good reference. i.e.. fill in "I know Ckret" under references. The rumor (that I'm starting) is that most of the new positions are related to the Cooper investigation. Or the coverup conspiracy, I'm not sure which. "FBI MEGA HIRING TO FILL OVER 2100 PROFESSIONAL STAFF POSITIONS! UPDATES WILL BE ADDED DAILY THROUGH JANUARY 5, 2009. QUALIFIED PROFESSIONAL STAFF CANDIDATES WILL BE CONTACTED TO PARTICIPATE IN A CAREER INVITATIONAL. ADDITIONALLY, THE FBI MUST HIRE 850 SPECIAL AGENTS." http://www.fbijobs.gov/ Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites Prev 273 274 275 276 277 278 279 280 281 282 283 Next Page 278 of 2623 Join the conversation You can post now and register later. If you have an account, sign in now to post with your account. Note: Your post will require moderator approval before it will be visible. Reply to this topic... × Pasted as rich text. Paste as plain text instead Only 75 emoji are allowed. × Your link has been automatically embedded. Display as a link instead × Your previous content has been restored. Clear editor × You cannot paste images directly. Upload or insert images from URL. Insert image from URL × Desktop Tablet Phone Submit Reply 52 52
georger 268 #6941 January 6, 2009 QuoteBet somewhere in WW2 they did a snag probablility analysis like yours for barrage balloons. My instructor, Perry Stevens, taught me to think of myself as a big blimp when flying, not a person. There is a lot of frontal area in a man under canopy. Ignore it at your peril. If Cooper went into the Columbia with an open canopy and drowned, what is the likelihood that he would remain undiscovered? I guess the canpopy could snag on some obstruction and stay submerged. Isn't the bottom relatively smooth (according to the nautical charts)? Seems like sooner or later it would get dragged to somewhere it would be seen or dredged up. 377 Im surprised nobody has mentioned chutes filling wth water and floating or billowing to the surface in the current if caught in water that isnt too deep? You mentioned using chutes as sea anchors... or drift anchors. G. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
georger 268 #6942 January 6, 2009 Quote Obsession or only logical explanation: Jo Stated: "I have only speculated there was money in that sack - what else would he have thrown into the river with such ceremony." Georger Replied: Quote You have a lot more than speculated. You have maintained it is true for years. You have pinned your whole theory on it, or else what has the last thirteen years been for? Buffalo Dancing? What else would he have thrown? His old lunch from five days earlier, old IRS records, old personal documents he wanted to part with forever, or maybe something of yours you didn’t know he had, maybe an old medical report? Who knows what was in the sack. How can anyone know? You say you don't know but then you jump to Cooper money. I don’t know. Maybe you need a lobotamy to get rid of this Obsession? ======================== ======================== Obsession, speculation or the truth To ALL: Put aside all of your knowledge (education and life experiences) aside for a few moments. Pretend it was your Father who confessed to your mother and to you. Pretend he had been evasive about his past (you were all of 16 at the time) and you and your mother knew little or nothing about his life other than the 17 yrs she was married to him…what your mother did know about the man was what I knew about Duane Weber. Yes, I do more than speculation, because it is the only thing that makes sense. Not one of you has been able to offer an explanation that EXPLAINS all of the things he did and said and showed me. You can take just take one detail and dispute that - BUT, not one of you nor the FBI or anyone else has offered an explanation for the complete sequence of events in 1979 and over 17 yrs that makes one iota of sense - other than to make out-landish outburst declaring I am obssessed or out of my mind. There are times it is easier for me to just say - I speculated. Why would I speculate there was money in that bag for instance? The sequence of events - the confession - the money being found not too far from there a few months later - his resigning when the paper announces the money was found, his efforts to keep me from seeing a TV special about Cooper about that time, the strange things he said and did and showed me on that trip. I am not just adding up the things from that trip, but 17 yrs of living with him and not even counting the yrs I have spent digging into his past - what I have been told by ex-wives, step-children, friends and those of unknown connections, prison records, family stories - etc. This has been a long and hurtful process - with absolutely no help from the authorities other than contocted statements made that do not co-incide with the information provided to me and others and does not match the records that they (the FBI promised) but never provided. Remember that Carr promised me the records and made things available on the forum that I had never been provided and have NOT received to this day documentation that what he stated in the forum is true. I have ever reason to speculate and to believe that certain things are true until it is proven to me that it is not. I have never pinned my theory on any one specific thing, but a whole sequence of events and things. There are things I “hint” at because if I repeated somethings I didn’t understand when they were said - how am I expected to relate to others “what I think it meant“. Take my story in its entirety - my accounting of the trip and all of the other contributing factors over a 17 yrs period of time - too many odd things...combine that with the things that I learned about Duane after his death. Pretend that I am someone you personally know - a person never known to tell tales or exaggerate - a person you would trust with your life - a person whose past is not built on lies or deception. None of you really know me, but pretend I am that person and recount what I have told you (NOT what you or other have interperted what I have said to mean). Look at that person face to face and tell them they are dislusional or obsessed - because you can dispute some of the observations made by the individual. What that person has told you has been told as an observation and researching in the only ways available to her. Judgements based on parts of the story being discredited are not fair. I challenge those who can say these things - to go with me from the begining in PERSON. Take it from the trip to SLC and Seattle and Tahoe and then back to Co. to the day the paper announced the money find. Go with me to AL and then to GA and VA and all of the side trips made - right back to FL. I challenge someone who might have the capabililties to find out about an old airline ticket charged to my account in 1990 - find someone who will have those records going back to that time - what was the location for that ticket. Find out who the man is in the SLC shot. Find the missing yrs. Put ALL of it together the way I have and there is only one logical answer..for the story in its entirety. Surely there is someone out there rich enough and curious enough to want to find the truth. The truth is within the things I have told and made available to the FBI and others. The crime is so old and the legend so powerful - hindered by the expense of finding the truth along with records that have been seal forever....D.B. Cooper - AKA Dan Cooper - AKA Duane L. Weber - AKA John C. Collins - the SkyJack of 1971 will remain forever unsolved . We can add to that the 1998 statement repeatedly made by the FBI stating they investigated Duane L. Weber. A statement which I can prove was falsified. He may have been checked out more thorough at a later date, but in 1998 - the information they had was incomplete and incorrect. Seems like a couple of countries outside of the USA are more interested in Cooper than the officials of the USA - ? I appreciate your sentiments unfortunately all good things must come to an end and I wont be engaging in this dialogue further. I just see no point to it. Good luck with your quest. Georger Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Orange1 0 #6943 January 6, 2009 Quote16% is low, far more probable that he landed dry than wet. Add steerable canopy and some ability to see hazards in time to avoid them, you are probably at 5%. Then again, steerable canopy + some ability to see hazards + stress could well = object fixation... particularly if not that experienced.Skydiving: wasting fossil fuels just for fun. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Orange1 0 #6944 January 6, 2009 QuoteQuoteYes, I do more than speculation, because it is the only thing that makes sense. Not one of you has been able to offer an explanation that EXPLAINS all of the things he did and said and showed me. Jo, That would be because we are investigating DB Cooper, not Duane Weber. so no-one, except maybe Sluggo, is or was actively looking at piecing the Duane pieces together. There are explanations for the stuff, but none you want to believe. Duane was not the only person who confessed to being Cooper. Gossett's son is convinced his dad was Cooper, too. (I hope that was "nice enough" for 377 and Snow.)Skydiving: wasting fossil fuels just for fun. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
georger 268 #6945 January 6, 2009 QuoteQuote16% is low, far more probable that he landed dry than wet. Add steerable canopy and some ability to see hazards in time to avoid them, you are probably at 5%. Then again, steerable canopy + some ability to see hazards + stress could well = object fixation... particularly if not that experienced. You cant discount the reduced depth-distance perception at night. Its an inevitable part of night vision, skilled parachutist or not. In fact it is one of the items that would select between skilled vs. not skilled. Add to this foggy, misty, windy conditions that night which has not been mentioned; if that was the case. (One report given months ago mentioned 5000 ft visibility at Vancouver?) Maybe Snow knows. G. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
steve1 5 #6946 January 6, 2009 I've heard steerable canopy mentioned a few times to miss the water. It should be noted that parachutes of that time period were not very steerable, and had little forward speed. If Cooper openned high enough, he may have been able to steer away from the river. Seeing as how this was a night jump, I'd bet he didn't even know he was over the river until he hit water. I don't know what type of parachutes he was given, as I have not read all the posts. Cooper may have had a para-commander. It was advertised to have about a 15 mph forward speed (if I remember right). Most skydivers said it had a lot less speed than that. If he had a 7 T-U, the forward speed would be about 1/2 of a para-commander..... I just have my doubts whether Cooper could steer very far, to miss a huge body of water like the Columbia River. I also doubt he even knew it was there until he hit water. In the Army I made a fair number of night jumps with equipment. On a couple of those jumps I never saw the ground until I hit. It was that dark. If there was a lot of moonlight and stars, he may have known he was over water in advance. Weren't the skies over cast that night? This would make a huge difference on visibility. I haven't read most of these posts. I'm sure this has probably been discussed earlier. Excuse my ignorance on this.... Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
377 22 #6947 January 6, 2009 Good points Steve. I have over 100 jumps on surplus rounds (T, TU, LL mods etc) and echo your observations about their poor performance as aircraft. From what I have read, Cooper had a steerable 28 foot C9 bailout canopy, which would certainly have little forward drive. I always viewed my surplus round canopies as rotatable rather than steerable if there was much wind. Sure, I know about vectors, but when the wind was blowing hard it seemed like all you could change was the view angle rather than the destination. Wish we knew more about visibility and landing area that night. If the body of water was very large and there were no nearby lights to define a shoreline, it sure would be easy to mistake the Columbia for dirt and take no measures to avoid it. Wouldn't that be a bitch to pull off the heist of the century, get a good deployment out of a 727, be coming down onto what looked like a nice flat landing area and then splash into deep frigid water? 3772018 marks half a century as a skydiver. Trained by the late Perry Stevens D-51 in 1968. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
377 22 #6948 January 6, 2009 QuoteIm surprised nobody has mentioned chutes filling wth water and floating or billowing to the surface in the current if caught in water that isnt too deep? You mentioned using chutes as sea anchors... or drift anchors. G. They do inflate and billow very well in water but do not float or rise to the surface, at least in my deep water experience. I once watched a sailboat preparing to deploy a para sea anchor off his bow without a float or a trip line (attached to the apex for collapsing and retrieving the chute). I called him on the radio and he answered. I politely warned him that he needed a float and a trip line. He disagreed and told me that the wind would keep his boat horizontal to the canopy and argued with me. I wished him good luck and told him I'd stand by as he might be needing help soon. There was a big swell and 35-40 kts of wind. After a short time the chute sunk and pretty soon the line from his bow was pointing nearly straight down and he was burying his bow in the waves. The bow couldn't lift as it was being held down by the deployed canopy. He had to go to the bow at considerable risk (seas were breaking over him) cut his line and abandon his chute. It might have sunk him had he not jettisoned it. 3772018 marks half a century as a skydiver. Trained by the late Perry Stevens D-51 in 1968. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
377 22 #6949 January 6, 2009 Quote Quote Quote Yes, I do more than speculation, because it is the only thing that makes sense. Not one of you has been able to offer an explanation that EXPLAINS all of the things he did and said and showed me. Jo, That would be because we are investigating DB Cooper, not Duane Weber. so no-one, except maybe Sluggo, is or was actively looking at piecing the Duane pieces together. There are explanations for the stuff, but none you want to believe. Duane was not the only person who confessed to being Cooper. Gossett's son is convinced his dad was Cooper, too. (I hope that was "nice enough" for 377 and Snow.) Indeed it was "nice enough" Orange 3772018 marks half a century as a skydiver. Trained by the late Perry Stevens D-51 in 1968. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
snowmman 3 #6950 January 6, 2009 The all-caps text below is directly from the fbi web page. Maybe they have 14-year-olds doing their web pages, like everyone else does? This is supposedly the biggest hiring blitz since 9/11. I think Ckret would probably give us all a good reference. i.e.. fill in "I know Ckret" under references. The rumor (that I'm starting) is that most of the new positions are related to the Cooper investigation. Or the coverup conspiracy, I'm not sure which. "FBI MEGA HIRING TO FILL OVER 2100 PROFESSIONAL STAFF POSITIONS! UPDATES WILL BE ADDED DAILY THROUGH JANUARY 5, 2009. QUALIFIED PROFESSIONAL STAFF CANDIDATES WILL BE CONTACTED TO PARTICIPATE IN A CAREER INVITATIONAL. ADDITIONALLY, THE FBI MUST HIRE 850 SPECIAL AGENTS." http://www.fbijobs.gov/ Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites