DB Cooper

[georger 268]

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I believe this video is true. It shows what I was saying about how front/back fading can be selective.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ks73zutaGQ0

I've read news articles where there was a bad batch of inks for US bills... where the batch was front/back selective. And you got the fading.

here's a 1990 news article

"WASHINGTON - U.S dollars are fading away. The Bureau of Engraving and Printing blames the ink.

George Washington's face is looking especially pale on some $1 bills, and small sections of black ink are flaking off other denominations. The bureau says it was sent a batch of ''inferior quality'' ink last year.

The bureau realized the problem when some bills failed durability tests, which entail folding and washing the bills"

So, what percentage of the Cooper bills do you
think Snow's Law applies to? And what is Snow's
Law? The video is terrible!

G.

[georger 268]

Quote

Georger

Gee, I don’t know if it was Montana (MT) or Minnesota (MN).

I did a MapSource search for Missoula MN and got “No items found”. Then I did the search for Missoula MT and got a map at N46 52.431 W113 59.996, so I guess that’s where I was talking about. I understand the plane (Flight 307) went through there on November 25th, 1971.

I was so shook-up up about the Navy Seals and MIBs they have guarding me (outside my motel room) I must have punched an “N” instead of a “T”.

Did you know that there are female MIBs (or I guess they are WIBs)? They look tougher than the male MIBs. Every since I went to work for URS/Lear Siegler/EG&G, I have been followed by “Camo-Dudes. The ones who work at Area-51

One of the WIBs said I had to surrender my Glock Mod 22 (.40 S&W), I told her; “You’ll get my Glock when you pry it from my cold, dead, hands!” So she kicked me in the balls and took it from me. My hands went cold, but I was far from dead… In fact I have never felt so alive in my (dull) life. Love hurts!

The head camo-dude brought it back to me and said Ms. WIB didn’t understand I was from Alabama (AT) and needed my security blanket. He said I could keep it, if I would quit shooting at the rabbits along the highway. I almost never hit any of them.

Sluggo_Monster (still on historic Route 68, in Santa Rosa, NN).

Reply> I am sure to an outsider it must be a bit
overwhelming, but you are no outsider. This is
your back yard and cup of tea. But, no freezing
rain and ice and fatal traffic accidents there so
you are ahead of us here. Salute them back,
ask them if they would like a cup of coffee or
a donnut, and watch them smirk as they let you through the doors with confidence. All will be fine.

You knew I knew the plane stopped in Missoula.

Take care.

G.

• Quote

[snowmman 3]

Quote

So, what percentage of the Cooper bills do you
think Snow's Law applies to? And what is Snow's
Law? The video is terrible!

G.

The video is great. I love youtube because it's so democratic. It shows the true diversity of what the next generation is doing out there. And it's scary. Least Common Denominator rules.

Like there's whole genres of whacked videos.
There's the guys shooting full auto AK-47's.
There's the guys showing off their two deer-one-shot vids.
There's the kids showing the highest leap off cliffs into water (100ft)
There's the guys with homemade parachutes.
Then there's the guys shooting propane tanks. Or filming women in bikinis shooting .50 cal weapons.

Welcome to America! America IS Sarah Palin, whether people like it or not. Everyone has the horn now...it's scary...

Hell poor Sluggo with his little Glock, is like....so old school.

minimum you gotta have like a 13 foot shotgun to play in today's redneck world...
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bTQQfKxkZpk

(don't forget to say "holy cow" to prove you're redneck!)

Hey sluggo: I went up to Alaska to get the neutron tube from the oil well guys like you said. What's the next piece I need? Are you sure it's all going to fit in a black suitcase? I don't want no FBI guy saying I knew just enough to hurt myself, afterwards.

[skyjack71 0]

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Quote

And a buried bill (even in a bucket a la Jo) wouldn't get the selective fading like that?

I just know that he said - He put an amount money in a bucket and he couldn't find the bucket.
I assume he meant he couldn't find the bucket when we were there in 1979 - the old house or cabin that used to be there was gone.

So how long had the cabin and bucket been gone and how long had the money been gone? REMEMBER - that anything I mention about the MONEY is speculation in relation to the things he said and the places he took me. I never saw any money.
=======================

Quote

The ink fading may be the
strongest evidence that Jo's story about buried money being thrown in the Columbia a couple of months before discovery, is not possible.???

I have only speculated there was money in that sack - what else would he have thrown into the river with such ceremony. He threw that sack in the Columbia - in Sept of 1979 - The money was not found until Feb of 1980. If some of the money was in that sack - WHERE WAS IT FOR THE LAST 8 YEARS?
You don't know and I don't know.

You therefore are speculating in regards to statements I have made - and I stand by that - I don't know where the money was and or if it was in several places. Remember he disappeared more than once.

If that money was exposed to daylight for very long it would have been found long before it was.

I would think that if money was wet and then exposed to sunlight it would do all sorts of things. Remember my under the sink tests with soil removed from around my azaleas and mason jars and 1 dollar bills? Also had one in the window sill (shaded area). Remember I put rubber bands in there also.

I also put some of the bills and rubber bands under soil in a pan on the deck (lots of shade).

I never thought about exposing them to sun light afterwards.

The one in the window sill was lighter, but it may have been lighter when I put it in there.

In the soil - they were a mess, but still intact. The one under the counter in the water and soil survived in the best condition.

Copyright 2006, 2007, 2008, 2009, 2010, 2011, 2012 2013, 2014, 2015 by Jo Weber

• Quote

[georger 268]

Quote

The ink fading may be the
strongest evidence that Jo's story about buried money being thrown in the Columbia a couple of months before discovery, is not possible.???

REPLY> The "strongest" evidece is "there is no
evidence at all". Has nothing to do with ink or
with any other random event on Earth. On any
other day it would be you saying this, not me.


I have only speculated there was money in that sack - what else would he have thrown into the river with such ceremony.

Reply> You have a lot more than speculated. You
have maintained it is true for years. You have
pinned your whole theory on it, or else what has
the last thirteen years been for? Buffalo Dancing?

What else would he have thrown? His old lunch
from five days earlier, old IRS records, old personal
documents he wanted to part with forever, or
maybe something of yours you didnt know he had,
maybe an old medical report?

Who knows what was in the sack. How can anyone
know? You say you don't know but then you jump
to Cooper money. You might as well jump to the
personal letters of Adolf Hitler or proof UFOs exist,
or George Washington's underwear!

I dont know. Maybe you need a lobotamy to get
rid of this Obsession?

It appears to me just about everyody involved
in this Cooper-thing is obsessed on some level.
Maybe Himmelsbach was obsessed and that is
part of the reason he never found Cooper? Who
knows.

What I do know for a fact, is there is precious little
sound historical accounting of this matter partly
due to a lack of facts, partly due to laziness, and
partly due to people's obsessions and ego's.

You could write a PhD on the social-psychology
of people pursung the Cooper saga. It has a
lot in common with ordinary cult behavior.

And intelligence has nothing to do with it.

G.

[snowmman 3]

Let's make January "Be Nice To Jo" month.

If you look at her recent posts, she's dialed back a notch, which might not seem like much, but I'm sure is a big deal for her.

She'll hate me for saying this, but I think if we saw her in person, we'd realize she's not kidding when she says she has health issues, that are maybe kicking in a little worse than normal.

Remember: strong words here, don't necessarily translate to strong body.

And in any case, it's good for us. We don't need to hold onto what someone might have said a year ago...We can keep our memories shorter..at least for January! Hey everyone's nice to nice people...we can take on the harder job! JO-KE!

Happy New Year, Jo!

[snowmman 3]

"It has a lot in common with ordinary cult behavior. "

I worked for a guy in the mid-'80s, who later on liked to claim that he was the first to introduce the phrase "drink the Kool-Aid" into everyday conversation.

Mostly because it still had the taint of bad taste because it was still close to 1978. Whereas people and web articles say it all the time nowadays.

When I look at wikipedia today, there is an entry:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kool-Aid
that claims:
"The earliest known use of the term in its figurative, non-literal context (that is, outside descriptions of people actually drinking real Kool-Aid), is from a 1987 quote about former Washington, D.C., mayor Marion Barry in the Washington Post."

However, I started working for him in 1986, and I distinctly remember hearing it in the first year.

I only mention this because georger mentioned cults, and I also wanted to deny any obsessive behavior on my part. I don't know what you might be referring to.

To complete the thought, in the mid-80's there was an article in the Sunday insert of the Boston Globe, where a columnist also dreamed of introducing a catch phrase into everyday conversation. He tried to introduce "get a cushion!" (long story).

Since then, I've tried to help him, yelling "Get a cushion!" whenever appropriate. For instance, this post.

[Sluggo_Monster 0]

Georger said:

Quote

I am sure to an outsider it must be a bit overwhelming, but you are no outsider. This is your back yard and cup of tea. But, no freezing rain and ice and fatal traffic accidents there so you are ahead of us here. Salute them back, ask them if they would like a cup of coffee or a donnut, and watch them smirk as they let you through the doors with confidence. All will be fine.

Georger,

“Obsessed” is such an ugly word. Yes, I AM obsessed, but I prefer to call it “Passionate”. And “Cult” is an ugly word too, I prefer “member of a close-knit extended family”.

Have you ever met an Alabama football fan, a Michigan State football fan, a Dale Earnhardt, Jeff Gordon, or Dale Jr fan? Now, THOSE FOLKS ARE OBSESSED and CULTISH (Cultish? Is that a word?)
Yes, I must admit there are those of us who are obsessed (present company included), but it is such a small flaw, considering it keeps us “off the streets” and is guarding us against Alzheimer’s by working our brains.

BTW: The well-logging source doesn’t have the flux-density you need. Get a Troxler moisture/ soil-density gage, or get uranium with a higher enrichment. One or the other. Where do you plan to get the Be-7?

I took your advice and offered “Ray” (not his real name) a doughnut. He said he could snap my neck just for attempting to fraternize with him. He is sort of a cross between Barney Fife and Colonel Flag.

Sluggo_Monster [finally (and safely) at “The Ranch” (7200 ft MSL) after a harrowing drive up to the “Top” in white-out conditions]

Web Page
Blog
NORJAK Forum

[snowmman 3]

Quote

BTW: The well-logging source doesn’t have the flux-density you need. Get a Troxler moisture/ soil-density gage, or get uranium with a higher enrichment. One or the other. Where do you plan to get the Be-7?

AH! I knew Uncle Sluggo wouldn't let me down.

Well, the guys in the lab are just PhD students, and may be full of crap, but they say they can synchronize 63 of them, and while the efficiency will still be low, that it will be "good enough".

As to the Be-7, well we have a crazy scheme. We're going to put tethered balloons at 50,000 ft to bombard oxygen tanks with cosmic rays. Enough balloons and time, and we think we'll get enough Be-7.
The best part is we're getting NASA funding for the balloons. We told them it was for a "space elevator".

[georger 268]

Quote

Georger said:

Quote

I am sure to an outsider it must be a bit overwhelming, but you are no outsider. This is your back yard and cup of tea. But, no freezing rain and ice and fatal traffic accidents there so you are ahead of us here. Salute them back, ask them if they would like a cup of coffee or a donnut, and watch them smirk as they let you through the doors with confidence. All will be fine.

Georger,

“Obsessed” is such an ugly word. Yes, I AM obsessed, but I prefer to call it “Passionate”. And “Cult” is an ugly word too, I prefer “member of a close-knit extended family”.

Have you ever met an Alabama football fan, a Michigan State football fan, a Dale Earnhardt, Jeff Gordon, or Dale Jr fan? Now, THOSE FOLKS ARE OBSESSED and CULTISH (Cultish? Is that a word?)
Yes, I must admit there are those of us who are obsessed (present company included), but it is such a small flaw, considering it keeps us “off the streets” and is guarding us against Alzheimer’s by working our brains.

BTW: The well-logging source doesn’t have the flux-density you need. Get a Troxler moisture/ soil-density gage, or get uranium with a higher enrichment. One or the other. Where do you plan to get the Be-7?

I took your advice and offered “Ray” (not his real name) a doughnut. He said he could snap my neck just for attempting to fraternize with him. He is sort of a cross between Barney Fife and Colonel Flag.

Sluggo_Monster [finally (and safely) at “The Ranch” (7200 ft MSL) after a harrowing drive up to the “Top” in white-out conditions]

Im laughing my butt off. DAmN!@

[georger 268]

Quote

Quote

BTW: The well-logging source doesn’t have the flux-density you need. Get a Troxler moisture/ soil-density gage, or get uranium with a higher enrichment. One or the other. Where do you plan to get the Be-7?

AH! I knew Uncle Sluggo wouldn't let me down.

Well, the guys in the lab are just PhD students, and may be full of crap, but they say they can synchronize 63 of them, and while the efficiency will still be low, that it will be "good enough".

As to the Be-7, well we have a crazy scheme. We're going to put tethered balloons at 50,000 ft to bombard oxygen tanks with cosmic rays. Enough balloons and time, and we think we'll get enough Be-7.
The best part is we're getting NASA funding for the balloons. We told them it was for a "space elevator".

which is simply an intro to the Tach Express
capable of catching up to the Cooper Glimmer fading
fast in the Madum Fornax. Say hello to Jessie James
on the way out.

G.

[377 22]

Quote

Let's make January "Be Nice To Jo" month.

If you look at her recent posts, she's dialed back a notch, which might not seem like much, but I'm sure is a big deal for her.

She'll hate me for saying this, but I think if we saw her in person, we'd realize she's not kidding when she says she has health issues, that are maybe kicking in a little worse than normal.

Remember: strong words here, don't necessarily translate to strong body.

And in any case, it's good for us. We don't need to hold onto what someone might have said a year ago...We can keep our memories shorter..at least for January! Hey everyone's nice to nice people...we can take on the harder job! JO-KE!

Happy New Year, Jo!

Kind words and a great start to 2009. I second your motion.

Beneath that gruff exterior lies a heart of isotopic heavy metal.

Oh Snowmman, you humanitarian.

377

2018 marks half a century as a skydiver. Trained by the late Perry Stevens D-51 in 1968.

[377 22]

Quote

You could write a PhD on the social-psychology
of people pursung the Cooper saga. It has a
lot in common with ordinary cult behavior.

So who is the charismatic leader?

Where is the believers' money and who gets it?

We seem to be missing two essential cult ingredients.

377

2018 marks half a century as a skydiver. Trained by the late Perry Stevens D-51 in 1968.

[snowmman 3]

Quote

So who is the charismatic leader?

I'm not sure if it's Quade, or Cooper.
One of them, unless maybe Quade is Cooper?

end-of-world-predictions = end-of-thread-predictions

I have been to Tena's Bar and dug up the Aluminum Plates. Behold!

[377 22]

How many steps down the 727 airstairs?

My name is 377. I am a Cooperholic.

377

2018 marks half a century as a skydiver. Trained by the late Perry Stevens D-51 in 1968.

[377 22]

Round canopies will inflate really well underwater if there is current (or relative wind hydraulically speaking). We used them as sea anchors when drifting in heavy seas. If Cooper went in as a no pull, those surplus containers with pins and cones might keep the canopy contained for a long long time. If the unsleeved round canopy ever came out, or if he went in with an open canopy, it might ultimately inflate underwater and start moving downstream. It would need something on the riser end to act as a drag device in order to maintain inflation in moving water. Just a thought.

Parachutes found in a recently salvaged B 25 that crashed in the 1940s were still in their containers.

377

2018 marks half a century as a skydiver. Trained by the late Perry Stevens D-51 in 1968.

[georger 268]

Quote

Round canopies will inflate really well underwater if there is current (or relative wind hydraulically speaking). We used them as sea anchors when drifting in heavy seas. If Cooper went in as a no pull, those surplus containers with pins and cones might keep the canopy contained for a long long time. If the unsleeved round canopy ever came out, or if he went in with an open canopy, it might ultimately inflate underwater and start moving downstream. It would need something on the riser end to act as a drag device in order to maintain inflation in moving water. Just a thought.

Parachutes found in a recently salvaged B 25 that crashed in the 1940s were still in their containers.

377

I wonder if people reading this thread
have an idea of the actual scale involved for the
Columbia at Portland, for example. Or an
article landing here winding up at Tina Bar? Or what
an open chute landing here would encounter and do,
or be noticed.

A few pics attached to remove some abstraction in
this matter -

While large and open in some areas, the Columbia
is not the open ocean. Now calc the probability of
an average Joe landing in the Columbia at night bailing into cloud cover from 10k feet, jumping from
a jet into winds ?

These facts might add some realism...

G.

[steve1 5]

I drove down the Columbia gorge a few days ago. There were white-caps four feet high, not to mention strong currents (in places). I doubt if even James Bond could have survived a night jump into such a place.

If some money was found in these waters, I'd bet that is where Cooper met his maker. His body or gear were never found. These waters would certainly hide everything.....

[georger 268]

Quote

I drove down the Columbia gorge a few days ago. There were white-caps four feet high, not to mention strong currents (in places). I doubt if even James Bond could have survived a night jump into such a place.

If some money was found in these waters, I'd bet that is where Cooper met his maker. His body or gear were never found. These waters would certainly hide everything.....

One central question I have is where does the bulk of
debris found at Tina Bar come from - what is its path
via the Columbia? Maybe you can answer this because
I dont find this discussed in any report?

I don't see that anything flowing through the main
channel before or near Tina Bar has a very good chance of being diverted over to Tina Bar - main channel current is just too strong and funneled.

So, how does debris get to Tina Bar, generally speaking? By what route?

On the other hand, it is a straight shot from the
channel behind Catapillar Island to Tina Bar where
the money was found. I can see how an article snagged behind Catapillar Island could later move
to Tina Bar in a high water scenario.

What do you see being there?

Thanks,

G.

[snowmman 3]

Quote

On the other hand, it is a straight shot from the
channel behind Catapillar Island to Tina Bar where
the money was found.

no it isn't.
quote the year you're thinking about. Pics are available.
Shoreline changes, especially with water level.

Also, your statements about the behavior of floating trash and shorelines and current flows, seems purely speculative.

Why would high current in the center of the river have a controlling effect on behaviors at the edge of the river?

You could quote studies on river shoreline trash, and get some better data?

[377 22]

Quote

While large and open in some areas, the Columbia
is not the open ocean. Now calc the probability of
an average Joe landing in the Columbia at night bailing into cloud cover from 10k feet, jumping from
a jet into winds ?

I think the chances of a random canopy drop (like a cargo drop, with no visual recognition of and abilty to steer around seen hazards) landing in the Columbia are quite small given the 727 flight path as we generally know it. They are even smaller if Cooper could have seen the river and steered the canopy to avoid landing in it.

HOWEVER... Cooper money was found buried in a river sand bar. We can't ignore the possibility that Cooper, or his loot or both landed in the water at night. Jumpers have drowned in shallow warm water on sunny summer days. The danger of water landings is easily underestimated. Add night, freezing temps and strong winds and the survival odds plummet.

You might disagree with Tosaw, but he is no dummy. He thinks Cooper drowned and he may be right. The Tena Bar money find argues more for a water landing than against it as I see it.

Ratazak (sp?) hoped to kill Cooper by having him exit over open ocean. In the end, it may have been unnecessary.

377

2018 marks half a century as a skydiver. Trained by the late Perry Stevens D-51 in 1968.

[georger 268]

Quote

Quote

On the other hand, it is a straight shot from the
channel behind Catapillar Island to Tina Bar where
the money was found.

no it isn't.
quote the year you're thinking about. Pics are available.
Shoreline changes, especially with water level.

You post the years you have in mind, if you have it
solved?

The basic flow patterns are the same for any set of
years depending on flood scenario.

Lets say '77.

See map attached. Its far easier for an object to move
along red line than any other line. Anything moving in the main channel tends to stay there due to flow
rate (high especially during hi water)?



Also, your statements about the behavior of floating trash and shorelines and current flows, seems purely speculative.

It is speculative. Duhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhh.

• Quote

[snowmman 3]

re: georger's theories about river flow.

back in the day, I actually did some lab experiments with laminar flow of water across the diameter of a pipe. We used intersecting laser beams, and I think scattering from particles in the water to measure velocity across the pipe. Something like that...

Doesn't really apply, but you can see on the web, people who actually do research and measurements about river flows talking about laminar flow and turbulent flow and the effect of meanders changing the point of highest flow from side to side.

In any case, georger, according to your theory of river behavior, how does sand get deposited on shorelines, and where does it come from? Sand is very small particles...may or may not behave the same as say a boat left adrift in the middle of the Columbia.

But what's your theory about the sand on the shores of the Columbia. How did it get there, and why in particular spots more than others?

[snowmman 3]

We've discussed this before, but Cooper might also have landed on the wild western side of Hayden Island. And then the money raised during flood conditions.

So it's not just a matter of analyzing water to land ratios for probability.

Places with low human traffic, that get flooded, like Hayden Island, or the channel on the south of Hayden island, also have to get included.

If Cooper spotted using Vancouver lights, things could have been very bad, probablity wise? (Hayden Island plus that channel probably doubles the bad odds?)

[377 22]

16% is low, far more probable that he landed dry than wet. Add steerable canopy and some ability to see hazards in time to avoid them, you are probably at 5%.

Your area proportion analysis is way better than my shoot from the hip one, but it still shows the odds greatly favor a dry landing, or am I missing something?

Skydivers have this completely irrational superstition (not belief) that water, power lines and other landing hazards attract canopies. Look how many cutaway canopies land in power lines. The poor guy who forgot to attach his legstraps in a wingsuit jump in FLA last week had his gear end up in power lines.

I spoke to a skydiver who was also a Navy S3 pilot. They got into an unrecoverable spin and had to eject over the ocean. Even with all his training, experience and survival gear, he damn near drowned. Fortunately his entire crew survived.

Water landing are dangerous as hell. Look what happened to Bob Buquor, for whom the SCR SCS awards are named. Landed off the beach in Malibu during a filming assignment and drowned before help could reach him.

If Cooper went in the Columbia that night I'd put his chances of survival very low, unless he was only a few feet from shore.

377

2018 marks half a century as a skydiver. Trained by the late Perry Stevens D-51 in 1968.