georger 268
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georger 268
QuoteIt's funny that Jo is accusing georger of being ex-FBI. I know I miss the days when I was NSA, on Project Mannequin.
So let's look at it:
What do we know about georger. Reviewing his posts:
1) He says he's in Iowa City, Iowa
2) He says he's a physicist at the Eastern Iowa Observatory and Learning Center and this is a pet project:
http://www.cedar-astronomers.org/paldows.ht
3) He says he was painting barns for cows apparently.
What's weird, is if he was involved in putting together the "Dream Team" like he says, is how did he know Tom K?
I can see the Seattle connection to Ckret for Tom K, thru the Burke Museum/univ. of wash.. But Tom is currently in AZ.
So how does georger in Iowa, get to reach out to Tom?
georger is always dropping hints like he has/had access to fbi info on the case in the past. But I don't think he really has.
What's weird, is georger introduced the "dream team" on August 27 with this post, saying the panel was assembled "some time ago". Yet by 11/24 there was zero information. In fact the sand in Tom K's lab had only been gathered 11/13/08, if the labels were true.
said georger on 8/27:
"Some time ago, a panel was assembled and
recommended to Larry Carr with the idea of examining the money.
The panel consists of recognised experts in
different areas of forensics and analysis, who will examine the money or specimens from the money cache. The analyses will be conducted in laboratory
environments equiped with the latest in technology,
including chemical, spectroscopic, and even electron
microscopy (if necessary).
Our panel will also have access to other researchers
and resources if necessary. Every person on our
panel is highly skilled, experienced, credentialed,
and a published research scientist: some with ties
to Quantico."
I can't help but think "B.S." based on the lack of results we've seen.
Now you are sounding like JO. Think what you will.
Georger
snowmman 3
Quote
Now you are sounding like JO. Think what you will.
Georger
no, you think what you will.
I thought I was pretty straightforward in saying what was what. If it's different, just say so.
Tom did..seemed fine to me.
Why obfuscate? You obviously know it drives Jo crazy.
Why bother? I couldn't believe Tom was getting into this attempt at rational discussion with Jo. We already know it doesn't work. What's the point?
Jo's just an old lady. It's shooting fish in a barrel.
I only deserve a one-liner? Surely you can do better than that!
Orange1 0
In my google searches, I kept on coming up with articles on the paradrop into the Belgian Congo in 1964, like this one http://www.freerepublic.com/focus/f-vetscor/1081045/posts
I'd ignored them as the drops were done by C-130 & B-26, and the 727 reference only came up as it was used to evacuate people off the ground.
But it suddenly occurred to me that Dan Cooper comic aficionados should see this - because the operations were done by a combination of US and Belgian personnel. Very possible that the Dan Cooper comics may have been in circulation among the Belgian troops.
Well, there were only 2 Americans with 338 Belgians in the actual drop (can we get pics of these two americans I wonder?!) but the USAF & CIA between them supplied the 3 planes so I presume there would have been any number of Americans around, probably including some or all the crew of the planes. (which included CIA trained Cuban exile pilots.)
Well, actually this goes beyond comics.
Anyone knows that CIA agents were thick on the ground in the Congo pre- and post-independence anyway. For those of you whose African history may be a little rusty, along with Castro, the CIA also had plans to assassinate Patrice Lumumba and documents apparently show that the assassination order (which in this case was successful) came directly from Eisenhower. (History has painted Lumumba as effectively Congo's Mandela and many suggest the Congo would not have descended into chaos had he been allowed to rule, but that's a what-if and a drift from our thread.)
Here's a doc that shows the USAF was active in Congo from 1960-1978: https://www.afresearch.org/skins/rims/q_mod_be0e99f3-fc56-4ccb-8dfe-670c0822a153/q_act_downloadpaper/q_obj_b01dbb8c-4f5f-4fd4-a8fa-2d1ba44c8cc4/display.aspx?rs=enginespage
Oh, and the Congo would be a cracking place to pick up a deep tan... and Africa in general would be as good a place (if not even better) than SE Asia for both Cooper and the dollar bills to disappear into.
Which reminds me that of course, CIA involvement went far beyond the Congo. As African countries gained independence through the 60s and 70s, Africa became a Cold War theatre. The Soviets (and Cubans) supplied arms and training to many countries or their independence movements, and the West "fightback" was led by the US via the CIA. For example, there were Cubans sent to Angola to help the Marxist liberation movement there and the CIA helped fund and train its opposition, the (pro-Western) Unita movement. It's common cause that the main reason the US never really got involved in sanctions against apartheid SA was because the government was pro-West. etc.
So if we are looking for Cooper as being someone with exposure to airdrops, and a good place to tan before the hijack and hide afterwards. Africa is also a possibility. What makes Asia stronger as a contender is that we know the 727 drop tests happened there, but perhaps we should consider Africa as a possible source or destination for Cooper too.
I'd ignored them as the drops were done by C-130 & B-26, and the 727 reference only came up as it was used to evacuate people off the ground.
But it suddenly occurred to me that Dan Cooper comic aficionados should see this - because the operations were done by a combination of US and Belgian personnel. Very possible that the Dan Cooper comics may have been in circulation among the Belgian troops.
Well, there were only 2 Americans with 338 Belgians in the actual drop (can we get pics of these two americans I wonder?!) but the USAF & CIA between them supplied the 3 planes so I presume there would have been any number of Americans around, probably including some or all the crew of the planes. (which included CIA trained Cuban exile pilots.)
Well, actually this goes beyond comics.
Anyone knows that CIA agents were thick on the ground in the Congo pre- and post-independence anyway. For those of you whose African history may be a little rusty, along with Castro, the CIA also had plans to assassinate Patrice Lumumba and documents apparently show that the assassination order (which in this case was successful) came directly from Eisenhower. (History has painted Lumumba as effectively Congo's Mandela and many suggest the Congo would not have descended into chaos had he been allowed to rule, but that's a what-if and a drift from our thread.)
Here's a doc that shows the USAF was active in Congo from 1960-1978: https://www.afresearch.org/skins/rims/q_mod_be0e99f3-fc56-4ccb-8dfe-670c0822a153/q_act_downloadpaper/q_obj_b01dbb8c-4f5f-4fd4-a8fa-2d1ba44c8cc4/display.aspx?rs=enginespage
Oh, and the Congo would be a cracking place to pick up a deep tan... and Africa in general would be as good a place (if not even better) than SE Asia for both Cooper and the dollar bills to disappear into.
Which reminds me that of course, CIA involvement went far beyond the Congo. As African countries gained independence through the 60s and 70s, Africa became a Cold War theatre. The Soviets (and Cubans) supplied arms and training to many countries or their independence movements, and the West "fightback" was led by the US via the CIA. For example, there were Cubans sent to Angola to help the Marxist liberation movement there and the CIA helped fund and train its opposition, the (pro-Western) Unita movement. It's common cause that the main reason the US never really got involved in sanctions against apartheid SA was because the government was pro-West. etc.
So if we are looking for Cooper as being someone with exposure to airdrops, and a good place to tan before the hijack and hide afterwards. Africa is also a possibility. What makes Asia stronger as a contender is that we know the 727 drop tests happened there, but perhaps we should consider Africa as a possible source or destination for Cooper too.
Skydiving: wasting fossil fuels just for fun.
Orange1 0
Look at the bit on Rusty Phillips in this link - at least one example of someone who flew in both Africa (Congo, as it turns out - for those of you who don't know where Leopoldville was
) as well as SE Asia. There must have been others.
http://www.utdallas.edu/library/uniquecoll/speccoll/aamnote/aam62.pdf
Skydiving: wasting fossil fuels just for fun.
377 22
I wonder if the Hasenfus mentioned on page 10 is the Iran Contra C 123 shootdown survivor? Has to be the same guy don't you think? As I recall he disobeyed orders and wore a chute. He jumped as the plane was going down.
Hasenfus is surely the world's best known airdrop kicker.
377
Hasenfus is surely the world's best known airdrop kicker.
377
2018 marks half a century as a skydiver. Trained by the late Perry Stevens D-51 in 1968.
georger 268
Quote
Ok where do I start with all the comments you all have made.
First off Georger is NOT FBI, take it for a fact.
I did get into this because of him.
He contacted me because we knew of each other through astronomy circles and he knew I could do different types of spectroscopy from stars to dirt.
My connection to Seattle and the Burke Museum is complete coincidence. I got affiliated there because a good friend of mine from Chicago got a job there as the head paleo guy.
I know a LOT of really smart people. Only a few are on my collaborators page at www.tomkaye.com. Check them out if you want to see the range of things I am involved with. I certainly dont have all the smarts to pull something like this off but I sure as hell know where to go to find the right people.
Our investigation will NOT be able to identify Cooper.
It will correct miss information and give a clearer story on what potentially happened.
I am confident enough to publish the results but as with most high profile research, there will be MANY who argue with our conclusions. That's the way this business works. You can use those arguments to say we blew it, or look at the facts and see if you agree.
Some things we can be very confident of. I can tell you with 99% certainty that Ingrams did not fake the burial at Tena Bar. The exact story of how they found it though is wide open for debate.
There are many theories on what happened to Cooper that night and how the money got to Tena Bar. If we can knock down a big chunk of them (probably not all) then we have done our job.
I never discuss things that are inside our research area here on the forum. If I ask a question or put it out for discussion, its because its bugging me. This also means I am not paying full attention to it like the transcript issue.
Our research has little to do with what people said etc. That's what you guys are working on. We are working on verifying or dismissing facts through experimentation and information given or available then. We are trying VERY hard not to use any modern commentary etc.
My life is an open book. You will see the picture of me at Quantico on my website. No need to speculate you can always just ask!
Tom
I will add a few things just for context.
Im just a retired guy who thought maybe a small
panel of scientifically trained people could do
some analysis on the Cooper issue and that will
be the extent of this work, unless someone takes it further. That is all I have planned and anyone else
is welcome to do something more if they can.
Georger
snowmman 3
interesting Orange1.
like any new thinking, at first hearing, my reaction is "no way", cause I guess I do accept what Ckret says about Cooper not being too sophisticated.
But, it's interesting that there was a '72 hijacking from Seattle to Algeria.
All that CIA stuff you mention is interesting. Yeah Africa was on the map I guess, in terms of political grudges etc.
like any new thinking, at first hearing, my reaction is "no way", cause I guess I do accept what Ckret says about Cooper not being too sophisticated.
But, it's interesting that there was a '72 hijacking from Seattle to Algeria.
All that CIA stuff you mention is interesting. Yeah Africa was on the map I guess, in terms of political grudges etc.
377 22
QuoteIm just a retired guy who thought maybe a small
panel of scientifically trained people could do
some analysis on the Cooper issue
Hey Georger, I appreciate what you have done. It has taken the forum beyond just keyboard research.
Tom's transparency is blinding me. Can't he add just a bit of posing or teasing? You could sew some chevrons on your lab coat sleeve Tom ;-).
Sure wish we knew whether Cooper did or did not inspect the packing cards. If he did, the likelihood of him being a skydiver increases.
377
2018 marks half a century as a skydiver. Trained by the late Perry Stevens D-51 in 1968.
snowmman 3
I had mentioned that apparently they started thinking the NB6 was a 26' canopy in later quotes, although initial quotes around '71-'72 seemed to peg it correctly at 28'
I've attached a snippet from a 11/23/75 article
"The agent said there was doubt Cooper was an experienced parachutist since when he jumped he took the two worst possible choices of the four parachutes...
He said the chest chute he took was one that was sewn together ...and the back chute was much smaller than the large chute he cut up to wrap the money in and tie it to him"
Now we know the NB6 had a 28' canopy.
But Here's What's Really Confusing to me. the comment about "sizes".
Do we know exactly what size canopy the cut open reserve was...Could it have been just a 24' T-7A style
? people were using those in the '60s, or ???
(see snippet attached)
It seems like everyone was wrong about chute sizes. And it wouldn't have been possible to guess right by just looking at any of the containers anyhow? Confusing how the agents rationalized things back in the '70s.
Forget all the chute selection. My thinking is that the initial request for money in a knapsack, and the no-panic-just-cut-and-tie reaction to the money bag, showed jump experience. (since other whuffos seemed to have jumped without tie-on)
It would be very interesting though if Cooper had no jump experience.
By way of example, I've attached a story about Montagnards with no jump training, going out the door (static line probably)
from "Dirty Little Secrets of the Vietnam War" By James F. Dunnigan
http://books.google.com/books?id=7t-XPOvtWUkC&pg=PA196&lpg=PA196&dq=%22paper+paratroopers%22&source=bl&ots=ytOOWEC6vB&sig=fOkdHhonC33jKYWtuG0CaXm2Hp4&hl=en&sa=X&oi=book_result&resnum=1&ct=result
(edit) just noticed that Rod Pack's chuteless jump in '65 passed a 24' T-7A belly reserve, by example. That was in a twill, not nylon, container also.
(edit) just noticed that book page has details about the general failures of the south vietnamese insertions. Can scroll back and forth from the page link I provided above for good reading.
I've attached a snippet from a 11/23/75 article
"The agent said there was doubt Cooper was an experienced parachutist since when he jumped he took the two worst possible choices of the four parachutes...
He said the chest chute he took was one that was sewn together ...and the back chute was much smaller than the large chute he cut up to wrap the money in and tie it to him"
Now we know the NB6 had a 28' canopy.
But Here's What's Really Confusing to me. the comment about "sizes".
Do we know exactly what size canopy the cut open reserve was...Could it have been just a 24' T-7A style
? people were using those in the '60s, or ???
(see snippet attached)
It seems like everyone was wrong about chute sizes. And it wouldn't have been possible to guess right by just looking at any of the containers anyhow? Confusing how the agents rationalized things back in the '70s.
Forget all the chute selection. My thinking is that the initial request for money in a knapsack, and the no-panic-just-cut-and-tie reaction to the money bag, showed jump experience. (since other whuffos seemed to have jumped without tie-on)
It would be very interesting though if Cooper had no jump experience.
By way of example, I've attached a story about Montagnards with no jump training, going out the door (static line probably)
from "Dirty Little Secrets of the Vietnam War" By James F. Dunnigan
http://books.google.com/books?id=7t-XPOvtWUkC&pg=PA196&lpg=PA196&dq=%22paper+paratroopers%22&source=bl&ots=ytOOWEC6vB&sig=fOkdHhonC33jKYWtuG0CaXm2Hp4&hl=en&sa=X&oi=book_result&resnum=1&ct=result
(edit) just noticed that Rod Pack's chuteless jump in '65 passed a 24' T-7A belly reserve, by example. That was in a twill, not nylon, container also.
(edit) just noticed that book page has details about the general failures of the south vietnamese insertions. Can scroll back and forth from the page link I provided above for good reading.
377 22
QuoteDo we know exactly what size canopy the cut open reserve was...Could it have been just a 24' T-7A style
? people were using those in the '60s, or ???
There were some 24 ft chest reserves still in use in the 60s. I recall something about the twill ones being disfavored or perhaps even non FAA approved and only ripstop ones being used. I avoided them like the plague when I rented reserves as they had a reputation for very hard landings. The 28 ft chest reserves looked bigger and bulkier but assured you of a better descent rate than the 24s. I jumped a USN 26 ft conical chest reserve packed in an army container. It was a sweet canopy and gave me a soft landing on my one use of it.
I never trusted what anyone told me about a rental rig so I always inspected the packing cards.
I do remember what a tight fit the 28 ft C9s were when packed in a chest container. They felt more like bricks than packed chutes, very little give if you punched one. I marveled at how the riggers could get all that fabric in the small chest container and be able to close it up.
377
2018 marks half a century as a skydiver. Trained by the late Perry Stevens D-51 in 1968.
377 22
That Paper Paratrooper story is amazing. Goes to show that you can jump with zero training and zero experience, if you are brave and lucky.
On a few occasions DZs have seen possible skydiver posers try to rent gear and make a jump. The last one I recall was a young woman who claimed a lot of jumps and knew all the right lingo but used it wrong. She claimed most of her jumps were on PCs but she wasn't nearly old enough for that to be credible. She was very vague when answering questions about gear or experience or who she knew. We politely declined her request fearing that she might be one of those intending a no pull suicide.
377
On a few occasions DZs have seen possible skydiver posers try to rent gear and make a jump. The last one I recall was a young woman who claimed a lot of jumps and knew all the right lingo but used it wrong. She claimed most of her jumps were on PCs but she wasn't nearly old enough for that to be credible. She was very vague when answering questions about gear or experience or who she knew. We politely declined her request fearing that she might be one of those intending a no pull suicide.
377
2018 marks half a century as a skydiver. Trained by the late Perry Stevens D-51 in 1968.
A step for one is a giant leap across a casm for
another.
Georger
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