DB Cooper

[snowmman 3]

orange1 reminded us of the transcripts saying:

"Plane has been flown this way have large boxes 2-3hnd lbs thru the door in this config"

remember in the video that some of the boxes were lablelled with "lbs". The largest I saw was 450 lbs.
This makes sense cause of the double parachutes most(all?) boxes had. I thought I saw one box with 3 parachutes, but that could have been an illusion

wrt to PDFs.
There are a number of PDF split/merge tools available. Free ones hard to find, although you can download a free trial version pretty easily.
I think Acrobat might do it, but I don't have that.

I use Ap PDF Split/Merge

That reminds me, I've downloaded some of the various video news clips. I should put them up on youtube also, so they're all accessible in one place.

I love the idea of Cooper crouched over his laptop in some dank apartment, clicking thru youtube videos, laughing to himself.

[snowmman 3]

Quote

Quote

The transcript actually says Cooper wanted to take off with the aft door open and the stairs lowered after takeoff... not that he wanted to take off with the stairs down. It is after that, that the pilots are reassured they can fly with the aft stairs extended etc.

I didn't read the transcript before I posted, I went from memory so my bad. But I am bringing up the point that we should also look at the possibility that Cooper was flying by the seat of his pants and pulled a rabbit out of the hat. I am not hung on this theory, just putting it out for discussion so we cover all the bases.

Tom

You may be right. We've kind of discussed that a lot. Ckret mentioned how bank robbers wing it on the escape.

I always thought that it was wrong to be derogatory about "winging it".

The best plan will always have an adaptive, dynamic aspect, reacting to actual variables.

McCoy planned it to death and he got caught.

If someone has done a lot of crazy things, and flown by the seat of his pants and succeeded, it's going to be hard to tell him that he needs to be someone else.

We all bring our own perceptions of what's needed for success.

You mention small business owners/planners. There have been a number of small businesses that have succeeded wildly by just winging it every day.

If the dream is big enough, winging it can work.
Sometimes it's just the small dreams that need precision.

(edit) "winging it" is how we describe strategies, until a few of them actually succeed. Then we say "agile, adaptive" and buy their stock.

[Sluggo_Monster 0]

All,

Quote

on the sunglasses:

Why do people suggest that Cooper somehow had the forethought to bring sunglasses for a disguise, but nothing else was a disguise? ...i.e. it just was what he was used to wearing. Isn't it better to assume it was just all what he was used to wearing, sunglasses included? Why pick the sunglasses as "disguise"?

I know I irritate the crap out of all of you sometimes. For that I apologize.

BUT, we all have a point of view, and I have MY point of view. Therefore, It just frustrates the shit out of me to see continued discussions about the damned sunglasses as fashion or disguise.

In Sluggo’s small brain, Cooper wore sunglasses for the same reason pirates (of yore) wore an eye-patch. To dark adapt the eyes/eye.

When pirates had to go below into the small cramped dark hold, they took off the patch so they could see immediately, get the gunpowder (or whatever) and get back on deck (into the bright sun). The problem? With one eye they had no depth perception. If they had sunglasses back then, they would have worn them on deck and taken them off when going below.

Cooper didn’t disguise himself with the sunglasses. Tina said he didn’t wear them all the time. She saw his brown eyes.

I think (remember, I have a small and childlike brain) he commanded that the cabin and (all other) lights be extinguished, put on his sunglasses and when he jumped, he had binocular, dark-adapted vision.

I may not be able to respond to replies, I’m packing for a trip to Los Alamos and moving my household 250 miles away (all at the same time) so, my system will be down off and on for a while.

Respectfully,

Sluggo_Monster

Web Page
Blog
NORJAK Forum

[wolfriverjoe 1,523]

McCoy got caught because he couldn't keep his mouth shut. His plan worked.

He was a green beanie. Those guys know how to make a plan that is adaptable. We'll never know how far he had to deviate from his original plan.

"There are NO situations which do not call for a French Maid outfit." Lucky McSwervy

"~ya don't GET old by being weak & stupid!" - Airtwardo

[snowmman 3]

Sluggo's site has gotten a little bit unwieldy from a reader's point of view (not criticizing, Sluggo, it's a great effort by someone working for free...no one better)

And I was thinking the "primary" data is buried somewhat now, and people unaware of what's what may have missed some "primary" stuff.

Tom, the "second" transcript I referred to was faxed from Ckret to Sluggo a while back. Sluggo posted it at his site.
It is not the transcripts that were released to the news media.

There's good info in there, for instance confirmation of the flaps going to 30 degrees to lower the stairs.

Remember we have no idea where Cooper jumped, what the flaps were at when he jumped, or the exit speed when he jumped. We know the avg speed of individual legs at 1 minute intervals, roughly, on the flight map, we think. We have a couple of speed mentions in the transcripts.

We don't have flight recorder data. (Too Bad!)

The link to the 2nd transcript in Sluggo land
..best to right click and "save link as ..." to avoid hanging your browser on the pdf...

http://n467us.com/Data%20Files/Logs%2006-20-2008R.pdf

[snowmman 3]

Quote

McCoy got caught because he couldn't keep his mouth shut. His plan worked.

He was a green beanie. Those guys know how to make a plan that is adaptable. We'll never know how far he had to deviate from his original plan.

McCoy would have got caught no matter what he did.
He was stupid.
Didn't they have fingerprints?

Remember how they found the money at his place.
THAT's why they were able to convict him so easy.
That plus handwriting match etc. (fingerprints too)

It didn't matter what he said to that guy. They would have found him anyhow. He was stupid.

Just cause you have a written plan, doesn't mean you're smart.

[snowmman 3]

Quote

In Sluggo’s small brain, Cooper wore sunglasses for the same reason pirates (of yore) wore an eye-patch. To dark adapt the eyes/eye.

So you're saying most of the guys you used to night jump with in the '60s used to wear sunglasses before they jumped?

Thanks for the first-hand info, Sluggo.

[377 22]

I wonder if Cooper commanded the lights out to make it hard for chase planes to get a good visual contact. Do we know if the 727 extinguished its strobes and nav lights?

The info from Boeing given to NWA makes a lot more sense now that we know about the Air America tests. They had info on box drops and (described as a 'deal') info on dropping parachutists.

The FBI must have done some Boeing engineering liaison as a part of their sled test and should have learned about the Air America work.

377

2018 marks half a century as a skydiver. Trained by the late Perry Stevens D-51 in 1968.

[Orange1 0]

Quote

I may not be able to respond to replies, I’m packing for a trip to Los Alamos and moving my household 250 miles away (all at the same time) so, my system will be down off and on for a while.

Good luck with the move. And I for one hope to see you back more regularly once you are online again.

I thought pirates wore eyepatches because they were prone to losing eyes.

Edit - add - to confirm, the transcript I have (fron the FBI website) says the hijacker's instructions are "After underway all lights to be turned out in aircraft".

And just to add again though it has been posted before a while ago - the original message Flight 305 got from MSP flight ops was that ability to jump out with a parachute "is nil". It was later they were told it could be done. This seems to confirm Cooper knew more than they did. I guess it could be winging it, but I don't think so.

Skydiving: wasting fossil fuels just for fun.

[snowmman 3]

Quote

Edit - add - to confirm, the transcript I have (fron the FBI website) says the hijacker's instructions are "After underway all lights to be turned out in aircraft".

yes orange1.

I was thinking we could break Cooper actions/plans/behaviors during the hijack into at least 25 separate identifiable things.

And that some number of them can be interpreted as whuffo.

But it leaves a large number that seem to imply some thinking.

I think sometimes we latch onto one or two, and say "see, doofus!"

We should latch just as strongly on the rest that say "see, not doofus"

[snowmman 3]

I was thinking that some people might not have seen this image of the 1971 Cooper sketch that's on file at Getty Images. It has a watermark cause I didn't want to pay, but it's the most detailed (highest resolution) version of the 1971 sketch I've seen.

It's interesting to zoom in and look how the artist sketched the hair or other details. You can see little things that don't show up so much in the lower resolution versions of this sketch.

Might mean nothing, but I thought people might not have seen this one.

I was just looking at what I got, when I was thinking about "coloring-in" one of the 1971 sketches.

(edit) attached the "next-best" version I could find, in terms of resolution, for comparison. (edit) resized a little bigger too.

[Orange1 0]

Quote

I was thinking we could break Cooper actions/plans/behaviors during the hijack into at least 25 separate identifiable things.

And that some number of them can be interpreted as whuffo.

But it leaves a large number that seem to imply some thinking.

The biggest problem I would have with Cooper being experienced is that he left it up to the FBI to get him chutes. Although his request for 2 sets did make them think he might make a crew member jump too and thus stop a potentially sabotaged chute.

As I type this another thought occurs to me... a question that has been asked a number of times is "if he wasn't a whuffo why didn't he bring his own".. well (ahem) if his previous 'experience' tallies with Orange's Pet Theory of an accidental jump while acting as loadmaster or kicker... well he wouldn't have one of his own, would he?
And then the comment in the transcript about him getting "impatient" for the chutes and "not accepting that they are not available locally". Was he expecting that McChord would be the obvious choice for the chutes? Was he expecting - wanting - to get a military chute?

Some other things that I am now rethinking as I re-read the transcripts.

The bit about the hijacker being in the toilet and "think he will stay there a while". WHY? i.e. - why did the crew think he was going to stay there a while? If you were crew and a hijacke went into the toilet, would you have any idea how long he would be in there?? Did he tell them he was going to be a while? (Where is Ckret??)

The hijacker writing down his instructions. WHY? One reason might be he didn't want them garbled. Fine. Could another reason be that he didn't want to talk too much in case an accent slipped out? How much, really, did he converse with Tina? (Where is Ckret?? Who else can confirm this?)

Reading further in the detailed transcripts (p59 of the PDF, 184 on the transcript)...
on the "deal" from Boeing about how to "get out of there", Ground Control says "He's got that himself maybe". Right there and then, someone thought that maybe Cooper already knew the actual, real info about how to exit the plane.

by the way this later detail does confirm that he wanted the steps down (not just the door open) at take-off.

There was also a debate here about whether he actually asked for the flaps at 15 or the pilots just interpreted that. Pilot says:
"he wants the flaps down to 15, I think" (which is ambiguous as to whether he asked for 15 or whether what he asks for makes the pilot think 15). Pilot then says "He seems to know a little bit about an airplane. He says we'll have to go unpressurized... I don't know where he picked that up. He said we'll have to go below 10,000".

My eyes are getting sore from this PDF. Maybe I will have more to nitpick on later.

Skydiving: wasting fossil fuels just for fun.

[Orange1 0]

Am I the only person who thinks that the man in the sketch looks significantly younger than 40?

Skydiving: wasting fossil fuels just for fun.

[snowmman 3]

I think Sluggo/Ckret confirmed that "the deal" they were talking about was not Cooper, but the ability for the pilots to escape the plane. They didn't want to leave Tina though. They were thinking Cooper might know about the pilot's ability to escape the plane also.

At least that's how I remember this conversation about the deal, being deciphered....????

[snowmman 3]

Quote

Am I the only person who thinks that the man in the sketch looks significantly younger than 40?

Are you saying most 45 year old men in 1971 didn't look like that? I agree.

Are you saying no 45 year old men in 1971 looked like that? I disagree.

(edit) look at the lines around the eyes. The lines on the forehead. The almost-combover? narrow nose. Interesting chin.
He doesn't look 30 to me.
45 year old with feminine features. The sketch tells me that's what Cooper looked like.

Who started the myth that everyone looked like Cooper? Why would we believe that?

[georger 268]

To my way of thinking that is completely consistent with ignorance. "Ok, wierd stairs in the back of the airplane. I better get them down before we take off so I know it can be done". If he was really knowledgeable about it he would have known you can't take off with the stairs down (if I remember right he requested that before takeoff right?)

Tom

[Orange1 0]

Quote

Quote

Am I the only person who thinks that the man in the sketch looks significantly younger than 40?

Are you saying most 45 year old men in 1971 didn't look like that? I agree.

Are you saying no 45 year old men in 1971 looked like that? I disagree.

The first. We've had this discussion before haven't we - about people's perception of age.
But if most 40+ men looked older than he did.. how did strangers peg his age? Why didn't they think he actually was younger? Why would someone peg Cooper at 45 or whatever and sketch him looking significantly younger? I just don't understand it. (I'm entirely open to the explanation that I am just a bad judge of age from a sketch. )

Snow, re your 2nd line... I have also met 30-year olds who look 40. Is it possible Cooper was actually younger?

Skydiving: wasting fossil fuels just for fun.

[Orange1 0]

Quote

look at the lines around the eyes. The lines on the forehead. The almost-combover? narrow nose. Interesting chin.

I don't think noses narrow with age Not sure if chins get more interesting.

Comb-over means nothing. I know at least 2 guys who were combing over before they hit 30.
Lines around the eyes and forehead - could just be dry skin. Could be someone who spent a lot of time in the sun (getting tanned in the process....) in the days before everyone got paranoid about sunblock. (These were the days of the Jodie Foster coppertone ad, remember.)

I'm not adding in age to my pet theory. I am starting to question the age assumption, however.

Skydiving: wasting fossil fuels just for fun.

[Orange1 0]

Quote

I think Sluggo/Ckret confirmed that "the deal" they were talking about was not Cooper, but the ability for the pilots to escape the plane. They didn't want to leave Tina though. They were thinking Cooper might know about the pilot's ability to escape the plane also.

At least that's how I remember this conversation about the deal, being deciphered....????

Even if that interpretation is correct, the fact that they thought Cooper might know about that is still interesting? I want to go back and re read the bits about that... tomorrow.

Skydiving: wasting fossil fuels just for fun.

[snowmman 3]

Quote

Quote

Quote

Am I the only person who thinks that the man in the sketch looks significantly younger than 40?

Are you saying most 45 year old men in 1971 didn't look like that? I agree.

Are you saying no 45 year old men in 1971 looked like that? I disagree.

The first. We've had this discussion before haven't we - about people's perception of age.
But if most 40+ men looked older than he did.. how did strangers peg his age? Why didn't they think he actually was younger? Why would someone peg Cooper at 45 or whatever and sketch him looking significantly younger? I just don't understand it. (I'm entirely open to the explanation that I am just a bad judge of age from a sketch. )

Snow, re your 2nd line... I have also met 30-year olds who look 40. Is it possible Cooper was actually younger?

Okay, personal detail from me.
I'm 49. I think a sketch of me might look like I'm 30, except for lines on the face etc being a give away. If I had a short haircut, you'd see the receding hairline.
All young women know I'm an old guy though. They call me mister. However I still get carded for beer.
How? dunno. Women are smart.

[georger 268]

Quote

Quote

It would have HUGE appeal to anyone liking
aviation or adventure in the 1060s. The name
Cooper is synonimous with adventure as a
literary fact.

Georger

I think anyone liking aviation in the 1060s would have been a major visionary.

Well lets see. Battle of Hastings 1066. Magna Carta.
........ Jo ha the rest of the links to Duane. Im only
trying to help.

[georger 268]

Quote

Quote

Quote

Quote

But how do you reconcile that with the transcript showing Cooper asked early on for the airstairs to be lowered, and 377's point that so few people knew about this that not even the pilots did - they had to go back to Boeing to see if it could be done? Even if the 727 was chance, his knowledge of it surely wasn't.

To my way of thinking that is completely consistent with ignorance. "Ok, wierd stairs in the back of the airplane. I better get them down before we take off so I know it can be done". If he was really knowledgeable about it he would have known you can't take off with the stairs down (if I remember right he requested that before takeoff right?)

Tom

Hi Tom.
Have you read the second set of transcripts that Ckret provided?
Ckret provided an interpretation of those transcripts, but they could be interpreted differently.

I'm just wondering about where you got your opinion on just what was said, and by whom, with respect to the stairs.

We already showed you can take off with the stairs down. (the Da Nang video...which also has a poor guy hanging on them!)

I don't think the stairs issue proves anything either way. Why do you think it proves anything? Nothing you've said is black and white...it's a lot of speculation.

Remember it was Cooper who wanted to take off with the door open and Boeing/NWA who said no. So maybe Cooper actually knew more ... although anyway it looks like the only reason they didn't want to was to avoid damage to the aircraft.

The transcript actually says Cooper wanted to take off with the aft door open and the stairs lowered after takeoff... not that he wanted to take off with the stairs down. It is after that, that the pilots are reassured they can fly with the aft stairs extended etc.

I don't know how to do a Snow and copy the bit of the PDF to attach here , but this is pages 10-12 of the PDF file (numbered 98-100 on the original).

I've looked at the transcript again. It seems pretty clear to the way I read it, especially his insistence, that Cooper knew the stairs could be lowered and kept open in flight.

Oh btw 377, looking at the transcripts again I am reminded that when the pilots are told they can indeed fly like that, they are also told "Plane has been flown this way have large boxes 2-3hnd lbs thru the door in this config" also the guy says "I have a deal from Boeing on how to jump out of that thing if you have to get out, if somebody wants to get out" (don't understand why the word "deal" is used but it doesn't alter what is said!)

Reply> There are free proggy's which pull photos
from a pdf as .bmp files. Reduce to giff or jpg (smaller file). Its a lot of work! Maybe someone
has something better and still free.

Georger

[snowmman 3]

Quote

Reply> There are free proggy's which pull photos
from a pdf as .bmp files. Reduce to giff or jpg (smaller file). Its a lot of work! Maybe someone
has something better and still free.

Georger

If you have a big enough monitor, just open the pdf and view it, then use a screen grab tool to select what you want.
That's what I do for all the news articles. If I have to change the jpg compression I do it in photoshop, paint shop pro, or a specific photo resizer tool. I usually adjust jpg compression to "just" fit under the 300kbyte limit here at DZ.com per upload.

I use Screen Grab Pro. Free and Great and Brit.
What more could you want?
http://www.traction-software.co.uk/screengrabpro/

[georger 268]

also the guy says "I have a deal from Boeing on how to jump out of that thing if you have to get out, if somebody wants to get out" (don't understand why the word "deal" is used but it doesn't alter what is said!)

[georger 268]

Quote

Quote

The transcript actually says Cooper wanted to take off with the aft door open and the stairs lowered after takeoff... not that he wanted to take off with the stairs down. It is after that, that the pilots are reassured they can fly with the aft stairs extended etc.

Cooper being Ignorant is a very viable theory. It is the place to start because anything
else demands proof and actual linkage.

Just because a guy walks on to an airplane with
a note and demands does not mean he's a senior
pilot or a Lt Colonel or Double 0 Seven!

That requires proof.

They dont know who or what this guy is! All they
can see is a bomb and a note. The power of illusion
is great because the threat is real and Large, at first.

Georger




I didn't read the transcript before I posted, I went from memory so my bad. But I am bringing up the point that we should also look at the possibility that Cooper was flying by the seat of his pants and pulled a rabbit out of the hat. I am not hung on this theory, just putting it out for discussion so we cover all the bases.

Tom