DB Cooper

[snowmman 3]

Another interesting passage towards the end of Ted's Wikipedia entry:

In January 1995, Milt Jones, a graduate student in English at Brigham Young University working with English professor Dallin D. Oaks, noticed that Joseph Conrad's 1907 novel The Secret Agent provided a rationale for the bombing of professors and scientists. After Kaczynski's arrest, it was discovered that, like the character known simply as "The Professor" in the novel, Kaczynski had given up a teaching position at a university to pursue a lifestyle as a naturalist. Investigators further learned that Kaczynski grew up with a copy of the book somewhere in his home and had during interrogation admitted to have read it more than a dozen times. He also allegedly had used the pseudonyms "Conrad" or "Konrad" at times when he traveled to distribute his bomb packages.[51]"

(edit) Analysis of "The Secret Agent" here:
http://ductape.net/~steveh/secretagent/

excerpt from the book:
"There could be nothing better. Such an outrage combines the greatest possible regard for humanity with the most alarming display of ferocious imbecility. I defy the ingenuity of journalists to persuade their public that any given member of the proletariat can have a personal grievance against astronomy. Starvation itself could hardly be dragged in there - eh? And there are other advantages. The whole civilised world has heard of Greenwich. The very boot-blacks in the basement of Charing Cross Station know something of it. See?" (44)

my note: Charing Cross tube station is a London Underground station at Charing Cross in the City of Westminster.

at Google books you can read some of the book for free:
http://books.google.com/books?id=V8vrXfAiPRUC&dq=%22The+Secret+Agent%22+Joseph+Conrad&printsec=frontcover&source=bn&hl=en&sa=X&oi=book_result&resnum=4&ct=result

(edit) From that excellent analysis of the book above:
"Comments on Style :
Conrad has a unique style on which his specific diction and somewhat advanced vocabulary, coupled with complex sentence structure and plot development, hold the potential to confuse and frustrate the average reader, while attempting to engage their minds and create original thought. In depth description is also very characteristic of Conrad’s style and is found through many of his works. Due to this stylistic writing, an inexperienced reader may find themselves becoming to lost in his descriptions, and lose the story line in the process."

[snowmman 3]

I love all the lit stuff people are doing on the web.

You can get the entire text for "The Secret Agent" here, for free:

http://www.gutenberg.org/etext/974

tonight's read for me!

[skyjack71 0]

Okay I will try to tackle this and wish I had pictures of different people to post - but just talk for now

Quote

olive-colored - the dull, yellowish-green color of the unripe olive fruit - having a dark complexion tinged with this color

.

Oive does mean having a hint of green undertone - various shades are such as my own which is a medium olive - with a tan I turn and dark ashy (for a guys perspective try the word dirty)

Some olives tans with a golden tint - takes on a latin look but not with so much yellow - call it dusty like in the desert>

Quote

ruddy
inclined to a healthy reddish color often associated with outdoor life; "a ruddy complexion"

Adaquate description, but remember there are ruddies in fair and dark complexions so you have to take in the specturn of what a individual is referring to when that is stated. American Indian is sometime referred to as ruddy but it has the ash, the golden and the mahogony - spectrum depending on the heritage...some such as my own indian hertiage is more of what is referred to as Olive.

Quote

Latin was hard to find in terms of complexion (because of the google search term coming up with other meanings) but the top skincare site that came up seems to think it is interchangeable with olive:

Greek and Roman is a good description - but you have the whole spectrum of olives in this also and golds.

Quote

Golden ash- this confuses me. I couldn't find a definition of it.

Dirty Latin or Greek or Golden German (olive) - these complexions tend to look dirty ( dusty) when they get a good tan - will confuse the hell out of someone trying to figure out what their nationality the heritage might be.

Quote

Most people I know, for example, would indeed use Latin and olive interchangeably.

Most people do unless you have latin and olive standing side by side. Like standing a fair Mexican against a medium olive American.

Quote

But this is interesting to me, because I get different ideas from the different descriptions. Specifically, a Latin or olive complexion to me would imply a particular ethnicity background. Ruddy to golden sounds more like a tan

.

What we and others fail to understand is the witnesses where trying to decribe a color.

They were describing tones and colores of skin - not nationality. This is a fact that most miss in listening to the description - latin does not mean he was latin - but the person trying to decribe the complexion might associate the color they are trying desperatly to describe as latin to give the artist a starting point.

Quote

(I'm a little confused by the journalist who cannot share his findings with the public. Isn't that what journalists do?)

A journalist who changes his line of employment - and goes to work for the Federal Government - can not discuss old cases he has investigated. It is a matter of ethics.

Quote

Edited to add: just to clarify - Jo, when you say "Indian" you mean Native American, not Indian as in India?[

Correct.

Copyright 2006, 2007, 2008, 2009, 2010, 2011, 2012 2013, 2014, 2015 by Jo Weber

[skyjack71 0]

Quote

Jo: you're just another wannabe! You gotta get cracking. Remember some more stuff! competing with 100 jobs!

I have to make money off of it before you can classify me a Wannabe - so far it has cost me - in yrs and health and money. I have paid a very high price for holding on to what I believe...and the fact that I want the truth - not some made up fantasy to make money.

Regarless of what Georger and others might say - I am passionate in my belief, because I was married to the man and I know what he told me and what I held in my own hands...ticket, stub, bag, etc. The places he took me and the things he told me---All anyone else has is just a story to me - just another piece of fiction.

Copyright 2006, 2007, 2008, 2009, 2010, 2011, 2012 2013, 2014, 2015 by Jo Weber

[snowmman 3]

Quote

Regarless of what Georger and others might say - I am passionate in my belief, because I was married to the man and I know what he told me and what I held in my own hands...ticket, stub, bag, etc. The places he took me and the things he told me---All anyone else has is just a story to me - just another piece of fiction.

I understand. I can see how it makes sense that the money bag was in the van.

Hey are you going to be on the National Geographic show? Who all is going to be on it?..just the new posers? Not really fair, since you've taken a lot more crap than these johnny-come-lately's...

Hey if NG talks to anyone here, put in a word for Jo. I'd be williing to watch the show to see her. (so I don't have to travel to Florida to make Sluggo happy)

[Orange1 0]

Quote

I love all the lit stuff people are doing on the web.

You can get the entire text for "The Secret Agent" here, for free:

http://www.gutenberg.org/etext/974

tonight's read for me!

I had this as a setwork at school. I hated it.

Skydiving: wasting fossil fuels just for fun.

[snowmman 3]

Quote

Quote

I love all the lit stuff people are doing on the web.

You can get the entire text for "The Secret Agent" here, for free:

http://www.gutenberg.org/etext/974

tonight's read for me!

I had this as a setwork at school. I hated it.

Probably a good thing. Ted Kaczynski apparently liked it.

My point in posting all that Ted stuff, is twofold
1) Cooper's family, if any, will view him like David viewed Ted. They won't recognize a twisted view of Cooper now.

2) The things that motivate and steer twisted folks, can be very rational seeming, and deep and layered. That's why I was saying our analysis seems to be way too shallow in terms of motivations or who Cooper might be. I don't know how we got into shallow descriptions. We're talking about a hijacking! Bomb (fake)! Threatening to kill people! Jumping out of a 727 at night!

Saying it's some bumbling fool, motivated by money, doesn't resonate with me. Sure bumbling fools tried to hijack. But they got overpowered, shot, gave it up, etc.

Cooper went out the door with the money. Sure he might have died. But it seems wrong to rule out deep layers of psyche/motivation..i.e. stuff that we more normal folk would turn away from and dislike.

But then again, he could have been just some random dude, who got the money and jumped out.

If Cooper is twisted though, it should be easier to find him, if alive.

For all these skydivers liking the idea of being called possible hijackers...you're whuffo! All these people who say they know people who would do it for the thrill..they're whuffo, because they never did do a hijack!...face it, jumpers or not, we are all whuffo when it comes to a hijack.

[TomKaye 1]

There was a discussion a while back that seemed to indicate the chances of Cooper knowing which plane he was getting on was slim. This was glossed over by the idea you could just keep flying back and forth until you got the right 727.

I would like to put this out there for discussion. If we now think that Cooper had limited skydiving experience, wouldn't it be just as possible that his plan was to bail out of ANY plane he was on?? It didn't seem like he planned it well given the loafers and suit. He needed Tina's help with the stair right off.

If we take a minute and frame him as a guy who needed money and was just-smart-enough, you could come up with a much simpler profile that just HAPPENED to go down on a 727 with a rear stair.

In this scenario he would be sharp enough to plan out the parts he knew about and could visualize, like the sunglasses, bomb and hiding in the bathroom. If his knowledge ended there, then the stupidity comes in, loafers, picking a reserve that didn't work, jumping into the night, big pile of money to be dealt with.

My take on Cooper is he is just like so many other people I know that have a big motivation to get rich, and then convince themselves they have a great plan when they only have 10% of it thought out. This thinking accounts for the 80% of small businesses that go bankrupt after several years.

Discuss?

Tom

[snowmman 3]

that makes sense Tom. I guess you're arguing for Ckret's simplified profile. Seems fine.

Cini, the guy before him, didn't pick the plane well (Air Canada DC-8 for an apparent parachute plan?) Course he got whacked with an ax. So maybe he overall wasn't too bright.

I'm folding in a personal assumption that Cooper lived. If he died on the jump, then I don't really care about Cooper.

Then I'm thinking: if he survived the jump and didn't get caught, that tells us something more about him.

But he could have just been random like you say, and maybe died, or not.

(edit) you know Tom, that McNally needed instruction from the pilots? (I think? I think one was FBI or something like that) on getting his parachute on and jumping, right? McNally was apparently whuffo. Higher exit speed. Night. Lived.

And Melvin Fisher gave up.

check this page of the good book:
http://books.google.com/books?id=M5VEEhyJHTQC&pg=PA753&lpg=PA753&dq=McNally+needed+help+parachute&source=web&ots=QM6oj7G9eJ&sig=pxFMOzq3McDBj1BMzq9X837ffWo&hl=en&sa=X&oi=book_result&resnum=2&ct=result

(edit) confirming from
http://www.tulsaworld.com/twpdfs/2007/Final/W_070807_A_4.pdf]

"Two FBI agents posing as airline officials boarded the plane. One showed him how to use the parachute and how to jump from the airplane. Airline attendants later said he had difficulty understanding how to use the parachute.

The agents said they could not stop the skyjacking because the gunman kept his submachine gun aimed at an attendant"

[snowmman 3]

I just noticed "the good book" has a whole nother section on kidnapping, that has a lot more hijacks.

William Greene's is pretty funny, since he thought God was talking to him through songs he heard on the radio and advertising messages on television.

Supposedly, he hijacked after hearing and seeing a TV ad which stated: "Delta is ready when you are".

So there's that possibility.
http://books.google.com/books?id=M5VEEhyJHTQC&pg=PA752&lpg=PA752

[georger 264]

Quote

Quote

***What gets me is this contrast between olive skin
and no accent. That has to mean something. Black
hair olive skin, general build. To me that would
definately point Mediterranean, maybe Greek?

Georger - Shaffner in a conversation with the artist and others has stated that - Cooper had more of a Latin complexion -not Olive as that was just a 1971 catch all phrase When pegged down on what was meant by Olive, she starts talking Latin and Indian.

The composite artist needed more details. With the features and the color as is depicted in the artist drawing you get the feel of Indian features with a Latin hue. I don't know how to describe it - but the olive given was later referred to as ruddy to golden ash. These are things said to the artist and not what was used in the official statements or by the FBI.

One journalist spent over an hour and closer to 2 hours with the artist and this is what came from the conversation. It would be nice if he could speak for himself, but he still has his notes which I am sure will not be shared with the public because of his employer rules.

There was also a written documentation made outside of the official arena that quotes the "stews" as stating the complexion in more detail. Obviously the FBI mandates - olive, but olive is the color of my complexion and it is no where near the colors used by the artist.

Reply> so? Im aware of Schafner's remarks.
You have mentioned this before.

Georger

[georger 264]

Quote

Quote

(Ever seen the movie "Fargo" - its a classic you would love - just hilarious to a linguist).

YAAH! 4 or 5 times

Quote

What gets me is this contrast between olive skin and no accent. That has to mean something. Black hair olive skin, general build. To me that would definately point Mediterranean, maybe Greek?
Arab? Hungary-Turkey? A geneticist could have a
field day with this!
...What olive skin people smoked Raleighs in certain markets in the 1960s?

I think you may be over-analyzing the olive-skinned aspect. Second-generation American (or Canadian, or whatever) would have same skintone as parents (mediterranean or whatever) but an american accent and habits. Hungarians are not olive skinned and "Hungarian-Turkish" is not gonna go down well in that part of the world. (Memories are exceptionally long and the Hungarians still resent the Ottoman occupation, you only need to spend about 5 minutes in Hungary to realise that.)


Reply> sensitive matter.

I don't think Cooper would have been Arab, Turkish etc - the colouring is quite dark, especially the eyes and I would have expected the description in that case to be something along the lines of "Arab looking"??
And as Happythoughts noted, it could just be someone with a deep tan from spending time under the hot African sun.

Reply> Jo reminds us Schafner later opted for Latin.
I do have several other thoughts I wont mention so
as to keep Jo pacified.

For me, these issues go back to the detectors: Tina,
Flo, etc and how reliable their comments were at the
time, and then evidently, later.

Thanks.
Georger

[georger 264]

The idea of Cooper being Canadian would answer a lot of questions about nobody recognizing him or reporting him missing. It also make the demand for "negotiable currency" make a bit more sense. Someone from the US would just ask for cash, but someone from out of the country??

[georger 264]

Quote

Quote

... I would have a difficult time distinguishing between a strong Yooper (Upper MI) accent and a Northwest Ontario accent. With Tina being from "back east" would she be able to tell the difference between Seattle and Vancouver?
The idea of Cooper being Canadian would answer a lot of questions about nobody recognizing him or reporting him missing. It also make the demand for "negotiable currency" make a bit more sense. Someone from the US would just ask for cash, but someone from out of the country??

Thanks... that is the kind of feedback on accents I was looking for. And that sounds like a good point about the cash.

Reply> I have lived in this area. There has been a
steady flow of people and commerce between Mich
and Ontario through the UP for many generations.
Many people used to have dual citisenship. Language has followed people's feet....

Georger

[snowmman 3]

someone used to dealing with MPCs in Vietnam might
also have the idea of negotiable or non-negotiable currency in mind

The Perfect War: Technowar in Vietnam
by James William Gibson - 2000
"MPCs had been devised for use only by the military or US government employees as a strictly non-negotiable currency; in Vietnam they ended up as an indeterminate currency halfway between the dollar and the piaster...."

http://books.google.com/books?id=nY0VLPf0h8UC&pg=PA246&lpg=PA246&dq=vietnam+%22negotiable+currency%22&source=web&ots=nZpT-hzy2W&sig=7LBJAl18knwKbn8A0RBGq099cCA&hl=en&sa=X&oi=book_result&resnum=1&ct=result

also see:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Military_Payment_Certificate

[georger 264]

Quote

Quote

... I would have a difficult time distinguishing between a strong Yooper (Upper MI) accent and a Northwest Ontario accent. With Tina being from "back east" would she be able to tell the difference between Seattle and Vancouver?
The idea of Cooper being Canadian would answer a lot of questions about nobody recognizing him or reporting him missing. It also make the demand for "negotiable currency" make a bit more sense. Someone from the US would just ask for cash, but someone from out of the country??

Thanks... that is the kind of feedback on accents I was looking for. And that sounds like a good point about the cash.

Reply> The Comic Book: I want to know the distribution of this comic book. Where published.
Where available. Lets draw a line along the major highway running east-west above the Soo (sioux st marie) and where the comic book was available.

Quebec City> Toronto? Sudbury? Montreal? (probably) ... points south: Minneapolis. ... points west to Vancouver BC ... Seattle?

It makes sense to me some smartass far away
from his home territory would use a name that
only he (and French speakers) could connect.

Georger

[georger 264]

I think the olive complexion was a tan, which also argues against Canada.

377

[snowmman 3]

what do think of the possibility of Cooper's mom or dad being from Belgium?

My parents are non-US native, and I know that had a strong influence on me as a kid.

(edit) include grandfather/grandmother.

[snowmman 3]

Quote

I think the olive complexion was a tan, which also argues against Canada.

377

Mr. Genetics is the Decider! Right?

[georger 264]

Quote

georger

Why limit it to French. Weinberg was Austrian and there were a lot of sales like this: [see attached images].

Sluggo_Monster

Good grief! This thing is published in Europe. All
the way to Spain. Photos show a wide array of
tactical fighters from F86D to early Mig .....

Available on US bases in Germany and Spain etc?

Now Im wondering if Cooper used Dan Cooper precisely bcause he knew it would connect for
some people, like raising a middle finger, and
they would know who and what Dan Cooper was!

A wake up call . . .

Georger

[georger 264]

Quote

At this point maybe some definitions would be useful. It's harder than you might think to find the definitions.

1. olive-colored - the dull, yellowish-green color of the unripe olive fruit
- having a dark complexion tinged with this color

2. ruddy
adj 1: inclined to a healthy reddish color often associated with outdoor life; "a ruddy complexion";

3. Latin was hard to find in terms of complexion (because of the google search term coming up with other meanings) but the top skincare site that came up seems to think it is interchangeable with olive:
If you are Latino, you have the firmest skin of any other ethnicity. Your olive pigmentation, which is generally oily with firm skin, can protect you from deep scarring. It may also cause many problems for your complexion.
[Incidentally: historically - as in Ancient Rome - "Latin skin" was referred to as "white" skin in direct contrast to the darker skin of the Greeks...]

4. Golden ash- this confuses me. I couldn't find a definition of it. Golden implies tanned to me, ash implies white. There is a tree called a Golden Ash. Its leaves change colour during the year and its bark is golden. http://www.maryrobertson.co.nz/golden-ash.html Does this mean golden then and if so, why say "golden ash" and not just "golden"?

The only reason I list all the above is that I'm inclined to think that different people may have different ideas which may have coloured (pun not intended) the descriptions they give. Most people I know, for example, would indeed use Latin and olive interchangeably.

But this is interesting to me, because I get different ideas from the different descriptions. Specifically, a Latin or olive complexion to me would imply a particular ethnicity background. Ruddy to golden sounds more like a tan.

So I feel like I am running in circles here and the easiest would be to see a colour sketch by the artist. Jo, you have posted various sketches before, do you happen to have a copy of the one you refer to to post here? You have obviously at least seen it as you say it is not the same as your complexion.

(I'm a little confused by the journalist who cannot share his findings with the public. Isn't that what journalists do?)

Edited to add: just to clarify - Jo, when you say "Indian" you mean Native American, not Indian as in India?

Reply> well I might as well say this just to get it on the table and avoid Jo blindsiding us with her
Baumwollernmachinische Gestalt!

Kidney conditions often produce yellowing of the skin
sometimes shading into olive-yellow.

Jo says Duane' kidney condition was not as bad as
Pasternak portrays. She say Duane was perfectly fit.

I just dont want Jo jumping up here and saying:
"ah.. Duane had a kidney condition, yellow/olive
toned skin at times, but was not sickand perfectly
fit ... with yellow/olive toned skin.

Just think I should bring this up in case it comes
up from far left field ...

Georger

[snowmman 3]

Quote

would connect for
some people, like raising a middle finger, and
they would know who and what Dan Cooper was!

Here's a whacked out theory of mine. Take the spliff first.

Who was at the 1962 Seattle World's Fair and rode the Bubbleator? Do you remember how the operator was dressed like Flash Gordon? Do you remember the music they played and the voiceovers?

(this will also tell me whether there's any real '62 WA folks out there!)

[snowmman 3]

Quote

[
I just dont want Jo jumping up here and saying:
"ah.. Duane had a kidney condition, yellow/olive
toned skin at times, but was not sickand perfectly
fit ... with yellow/olive toned skin.
Georger

Yellow skin?
malaria or hepatitis is the first thing that comes to mind for me, in 1971.
anyone have knowledge of that? I've not googled much.

[Orange1 0]

Quote

I think the olive complexion was a tan, which also argues against Canada.

377

Mr. Genetics is the Decider! Right?

[Orange1 0]

Quote

There was a discussion a while back that seemed to indicate the chances of Cooper knowing which plane he was getting on was slim. This was glossed over by the idea you could just keep flying back and forth until you got the right 727.

I would like to put this out there for discussion. If we now think that Cooper had limited skydiving experience, wouldn't it be just as possible that his plan was to bail out of ANY plane he was on?? It didn't seem like he planned it well given the loafers and suit. He needed Tina's help with the stair right off.

If we take a minute and frame him as a guy who needed money and was just-smart-enough, you could come up with a much simpler profile that just HAPPENED to go down on a 727 with a rear stair.

But how do you reconcile that with the transcript showing Cooper asked early on for the airstairs to be lowered, and 377's point that so few people knew about this that not even the pilots did - they had to go back to Boeing to see if it could be done? Even if the 727 was chance, his knowledge of it surely wasn't.

Skydiving: wasting fossil fuels just for fun.