DB Cooper

[georger 268]

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BTW, where are you? Country is enough. Suid Afrika?

Georger

Ja! - as per my profile data in the left hand column.

That was a lot of detail.. thanks! I did assume Cooper would have been native English not French if he was Canadian .. adults can't lose their accents that well. Or maybe they can (Charlize Theron being a good example).

I have a good friend who's Canadian (Vancouver) and he tells me it is really only the "out" (which would include "about") that is different from Americans.

I'll take your point because Americans should be able to tell. However, I'm more convinced of that argument from say Tina, who spoke to him a fair amount, than the ticket clerk (not convinced "one way ticket to Seattle, Dan Cooper" is enough to pick up the differences.)

Re airline personnel...maybe. I'm not convinced. I have spent a fair amount of time flying in the US and have been asked by airline personnel on a number of occasions where I am from when they hear my accent, with most initially assuming I am from the UK. And an American might not be sensitive to the differences between Australian and Kiwi, for example. I've learnt what to listen for, because Kiwis get bloody upset if you think they are from Australia. There is just about no identifiable difference between an English speaker from Zimbabwe or Swaziland and one from South Africa. But all that is asides.

Ja! - I agree with everything above. Mark's comment good below. I dont know Dutch so wont even try.
Sorry.

Correct aboot die "about" at Vancouver BC. That's
that strong Midwestern historical root in that part
of the continent. Tina was from Pensylvania? Not
sure of Schafner (maybe east coast too?)? Of course NWA HQ was at Minneapolis so "doncha know - yep
golly gee, sure is doncha know".

Too bad all the wrong people get to talk to Schafner
and Tina and Himmslbach etal ...... I sure have some quesh'tions I cud ask em golly gee. (Ever
seen the movie "Fargo" - its a classic you would love - just hilarious to a linguist).

What gets me is this contrast between olive skin
and no accent. That has to mean something. Black
hair olive skin, general build. To me that would
definately point Mediterranean, maybe Greek?
Arab? Hungary-Turkey? A geneticist could have a
field day with this! (Im sure Ckret knows that).

Another side of this is the people on that plane
were under a lot of stress so may have missed something. Even with that (stress) these were
people rather attuned to the music in langauges.
You would think if they heard something they
would have remembered it, if it happened.

I am still fascinated by he comic book angle.
Dan Cooper. ??? But how does that cross with
olive skin, not French that we have evidence of,
and no accent?

Apparently nothing in his notes either, as a clue?

No mannerisms to speak of ?

Brand of cigarettes? Raleighs. What olive skin
people smoked Raleighs in certain markets in
the 1960s? Wonder if the cigarette manufacturers
kept sales stats, demographically ? Most people
smoked only 'their brand' in those days - not like
today where people smoke only the cheapest not
what they would prefer.

Here's a wild card: I wonder if he used the road
flares in his fake bomb for his jump?

Georger

[Orange1 0]

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(Ever seen the movie "Fargo" - its a classic you would love - just hilarious to a linguist).

YAAH! 4 or 5 times

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What gets me is this contrast between olive skin and no accent. That has to mean something. Black hair olive skin, general build. To me that would definately point Mediterranean, maybe Greek?
Arab? Hungary-Turkey? A geneticist could have a
field day with this!
...What olive skin people smoked Raleighs in certain markets in the 1960s?

I think you may be over-analyzing the olive-skinned aspect. Second-generation American (or Canadian, or whatever) would have same skintone as parents (mediterranean or whatever) but an american accent and habits. Hungarians are not olive skinned and "Hungarian-Turkish" is not gonna go down well in that part of the world. (Memories are exceptionally long and the Hungarians still resent the Ottoman occupation, you only need to spend about 5 minutes in Hungary to realise that.) I don't think Cooper would have been Arab, Turkish etc - the colouring is quite dark, especially the eyes and I would have expected the description in that case to be something along the lines of "Arab looking"??
And as Happythoughts noted, it could just be someone with a deep tan from spending time under the hot African sun.

Skydiving: wasting fossil fuels just for fun.

[wolfriverjoe 1,523]

Fascinating thoughts about the "Cargo Kicker" background. I posted lots of reasons for Cooper being a low number jumper (Door fear being the biggest). A cargo kicker who took an unexpected jump would fit most of them and have good reasons for taking the NB6.

Canadian accents are fairly diverse as I understand. I go through Ontario a good bit and Quebec sometimes. The stereotypical "Up Nort" (no "h") accent is common up around Sault Ste Marie/Sudbury/North Bay. (The first time I heard someone say "eh" for real I almost laughed)
Down near Michigan (Sarnia/Windsor) and across to Buffalo NY/Niagra Falls area it is barely noticable.
Quebec has strong French accents and some that only speak French, but that's the only place AFAIK.
And further east, the Newfie accents are really strong versions of New England, plus a touch of french.
Out west, the accents get less and less (no personal experience, but History Channel had a lot of Canadian speakers on their "Ice Road Trucker" show).
I've never been way out to the Pacific Northwest, but proximity would suggest that Vancouver BC would be somewhat similar to Seattle area (Like Detroit similar to Windsor) but that really just a guess.

I would have a difficult time distinguishing between a strong Yooper (Upper MI) accent and a Northwest Ontario accent. With Tina being from "back east" would she be able to tell the difference between Seattle and Vancouver?
The idea of Cooper being Canadian would answer a lot of questions about nobody recognizing him or reporting him missing. It also make the demand for "negotiable currency" make a bit more sense. Someone from the US would just ask for cash, but someone from out of the country??

"There are NO situations which do not call for a French Maid outfit." Lucky McSwervy

"~ya don't GET old by being weak & stupid!" - Airtwardo

[Orange1 0]

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... I would have a difficult time distinguishing between a strong Yooper (Upper MI) accent and a Northwest Ontario accent. With Tina being from "back east" would she be able to tell the difference between Seattle and Vancouver?
The idea of Cooper being Canadian would answer a lot of questions about nobody recognizing him or reporting him missing. It also make the demand for "negotiable currency" make a bit more sense. Someone from the US would just ask for cash, but someone from out of the country??

Thanks... that is the kind of feedback on accents I was looking for. And that sounds like a good point about the cash.

Skydiving: wasting fossil fuels just for fun.

[snowmman 3]

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BTW, where are you? Country is enough. Suid Afrika?

Georger

Ja! - as per my profile data in the left hand column.

I actually was musing a bit whether Orange1 could be misleading us with the profile for some strange reason, but decided no.

You guys are always mentioning "supersearching". Orange1's case is a good example. The only limits are really when you start to feel queasy about prying into someone's data.

For example, with Orange1, the B license number provides the link to start getting anything you want to know about Orange1.

Orange1: was I correct about the rigger's first name? I'm curious.

We all leak information here and there thru our travels on the web. It's easy to gather up all those leaks.

That's why we should all have an opinion about privacy, data retention, Patriot Act etc.

DZ.com should have a better statement for their site about privacy stuff etc.

The sad reality of life (as Cooper showed) is that anything that is exploitable, will be exploited. (by someone who doesn't share a group's ethical/cultural goals)

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[snowmman 3]

orange1 said:

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I have gone along with the novice view simply because it seems the FBI did a lot of work on the DZs looking at experienced jumpers.

They might have. Do you have any information on that?
Are you saying they went to DZ's in 1971? Why would that be interesting or complete? What information would it provide?

Does anyone know this? I've heard a lot of myth but no data.

Was anyone here questioned by the FBI about knowledge of Cooper, back in the day? What kind of questions did they ask?

Don't we have to start by assuming there was no good search, until we have data that shows what happened?

[Orange1 0]

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I actually was musing a bit whether Orange1 could be misleading us with the profile for some strange reason, but decided no.

You guys are always mentioning "supersearching". Orange1's case is a good example. The only limits are really when you start to feel queasy about prying into someone's data.

For example, with Orange1, the B license number provides the link to start getting anything you want to know about Orange1.

Orange1: was I correct about the rigger's first name? I'm curious.

We all leak information here and there thru our travels on the web. It's easy to gather up all those leaks.

That's why we should all have an opinion about privacy, data retention, Patriot Act etc.

DZ.com should have a better statement for their site about privacy stuff etc.

The sad reality of life (as Cooper showed) is that anything that is exploitable, will be exploited. (by someone who doesn't share a group's ethical/cultural goals)

I thought I had answered re the rigger.. yes indeed, and I think most everyone in Cape Town uses him.

I know exactly what you can find using my licence number, and i know if you really care about doing so you can look for stuff on me on the web. Most of it though will probably bore you to tears

Skydiving: wasting fossil fuels just for fun.

[snowmman 3]

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I know exactly what you can find using my licence number, and i know if you really care about doing so you can look for stuff on me on the web. Most of it though will probably bore you to tears

sure, now.
But after a couple years of harassment on this thread, and you go and hijack a plane, THEN it becomes interesting!
:)

Your posts are getting good and detailed. Keep going!

[377 22]

Good ideas Orange but I differ on Canadian. The only Canadians with big grudges have thick French accents. That rules out Canada ;-). I think the olive complexion was a tan, which also argues against Canada.

Think sunny, far from the US, few US people living there, not frequent back and forth traffic by expats (like you'd have in Baja Mexico). I doubt that the FBI looked far abroad and that may have benefited Cooper big time.

The Dan Cooper comic angle is intriguing. Coincidence? Sure, it might be. France, Canada, Viet Nam and some former French colonies in Africa are where you might expect to find a copy.

377

2018 marks half a century as a skydiver. Trained by the late Perry Stevens D-51 in 1968.

[Orange1 0]

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Think sunny, far from the US, few US people living there, not frequent back and forth traffic by expats (like you'd have in Baja Mexico). I doubt that the FBI looked far abroad and that may have benefited Cooper big time.

Hmmm.. just thinking, traffic is relatively frequent now but may not have been back then: the oil-rich countries of west Africa may well fit this bill.
I'm told flights from Angola to Texas are more frequent than to anywhere in Africa! but I doubt this would have been the case in 71. Other resources too - like the link I posted about the Air America vet who had worked for Alcoa in Portugese Guinea. (not sure what this is now, presumably Equatorial Guinea or possibly Guinea-Bissau)

Skydiving: wasting fossil fuels just for fun.

[Orange1 0]

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I actually was musing a bit whether Orange1 could be misleading us with the profile for some strange reason, but decided no.

By the way, while I may be spending a fair amount of time in the DB Cooper thread my primary motivation for being on the site is because it is a skydiving website, and there is no reason to mislead other skydivers about who I am ... and I do happen to know a number of posters (jumpers of course) personally.

Skydiving: wasting fossil fuels just for fun.

[snowmman 3]

I was having a thought, that the Ivers/Anthrax case is an interesting parallel to the Cooper case.

Both force one to make deductions about experience and skill levels.

Both confounded the FBI.

Both show the strengths and weaknesses of what the FBI does and how they operate.

They are separated hugely in time. A quick assumption would be that technology has dramatically increased the FBI's capabilities. But the Ivers case shows that it's not just about technology, but how the humans perceive things.

There was a lot of technology eventually used in the Ivers thing, but my take is that there were perception hurdles also.

Like I've said, I know little about the FBI, so I'm wildly speculating. I know even less about FBI+CooperSearch in 1971 or any time period since then.

It does appear that it wasn't super hard to solve any of the other hijack cases. So solving those, doesn't make me think "oh, the FBI is great at solving hard hijack cases"

If someone knows of a "hard" hijack case other than Cooper, let's discuss it.

[snowmman 3]

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I actually was musing a bit whether Orange1 could be misleading us with the profile for some strange reason, but decided no.

By the way, while I may be spending a fair amount of time in the DB Cooper thread my primary motivation for being on the site is because it is a skydiving website, and there is no reason to mislead other skydivers about who I am ... and I do happen to know a number of posters (jumpers of course) personally.

No need to defend your 'deep cover'. All good moles take a while to establish themselves :)

hey did anyone notice that "Deep Throat" died yesterday. (95 years old)
RIP Felt.
he was 2nd in command at FBI when he revealed Watergate to reporters.
He was passed over for the top job, by Nixon, when Hoover died, in 1972.

Mistake? What if Felt had been tapped by Nixon? Would Nixon have not been shafted!
The vagaries of history!
What if there was an Internet then!)

(edit) Hey....in 1975 Felt looked like Duane. That means maybe Felt was Cooper? Was the money needed to pay the plumbers? Felt was in on Watergate, and he did a double-cross? Did Felt kill Hoover?

[Orange1 0]

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No need to defend your 'deep cover'. All good moles take a while to establish themselves :)

Uh oh... busted!
yes, i started jumping and created a DZ.com profile a couple of years before Jo even posted her first post.. how's that for deep cover!
(It was my deep connections to The Conspiracy that told me someone would start a DB Cooper thread 2 years down the line.)

Hey - I just checked my first jump certificate, and the date of Jo's 1st post. Her 1st post was 2 years to the day after my first jump!

Skydiving: wasting fossil fuels just for fun.

[Sluggo_Monster 0]

georger

Why limit it to French. Weinberg was Austrian and there were a lot of sales like this: [see attached images].

Sluggo_Monster

Web Page
Blog
NORJAK Forum

[snowmman 3]

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Hey - I just checked my first jump certificate, and the date of Jo's 1st post. Her 1st post was 2 years to the day after my first jump!

No need to confess. I know the pressure to is strong.

It was obvious, when I discovered you have paper bags and rubber bands, that you were connected somehow.

[snowmman 3]

Good stuff sluggo.
The first one was interesting.
Who was the Professor Sam Cooper character? Was that a brother of the Dan Cooper character?

can anyone translate that text in the first attachment? It's austrian?
I've not searched for other references to Prof. Sam Cooper yet.

(edit) "Vater" is father in german. So now I'm thinking Prof. Sam Cooper, is Dan Cooper's father? He does look older in the drawing. So I guess that's right?

[skyjack71 0]

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***What gets me is this contrast between olive skin
and no accent. That has to mean something. Black
hair olive skin, general build. To me that would
definately point Mediterranean, maybe Greek?

Georger - Shaffner in a conversation with the artist and others has stated that - Cooper had more of a Latin complexion -not Olive as that was just a 1971 catch all phrase When pegged down on what was meant by Olive, she starts talking Latin and Indian.

The composite artist needed more details. With the features and the color as is depicted in the artist drawing you get the feel of Indian features with a Latin hue. I don't know how to describe it - but the olive given was later referred to as ruddy to golden ash. These are things said to the artist and not what was used in the official statements or by the FBI.

One journalist spent over an hour and closer to 2 hours with the artist and this is what came from the conversation. It would be nice if he could speak for himself, but he still has his notes which I am sure will not be shared with the public because of his employer rules.

There was also a written documentation made outside of the official arena that quotes the "stews" as stating the complexion in more detail. Obviously the FBI mandates - olive, but olive is the color of my complexion and it is no where near the colors used by the artist.

Copyright 2006, 2007, 2008, 2009, 2010, 2011, 2012 2013, 2014, 2015 by Jo Weber

[Orange1 0]

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It was obvious, when I discovered you have paper bags and rubber bands, that you were connected somehow.

lol. every skydiver has rubber bands- you ever seen a D-bag?

i thought i had kept my paper bags well hidden though

Oh, and my neighbour 3 doors down on the other side of the road is a Mr Cooper... not Dan or Sam but still; do you think I should put him under surveillance?

Skydiving: wasting fossil fuels just for fun.

[snowmman 3]

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Georger - Shaffner in a conversation with the artist and others has stated that - Cooper had more of a Latin complexion -not Olive as that was just a 1971 catch all phrase When pegged down on what was meant by Olive, she starts talking Latin and Indian.

Thanks Jo.
I always wondered if descriptions were colored by who people expected Cooper to be.

i.e. if Cubans were hijacking to Cuba, then hijackers must be Cuban.

I actually read a State Dept brief from the '70s I think, saying they expected Arab hijackers because of the strong support of Israel by the US. Number-wise, I don't think that turned out to be true.

By asking to go to Mexico, I'm wondering if that also colored perceptions.

Hey, I'm always searching. Here's an actual State Dept telegram, where they were discussing a 3-way deal for hostage exchange, in relation to a hijack, back in the day.

I didn't get it from Felt.

[snowmman 3]

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It was obvious, when I discovered you have paper bags and rubber bands, that you were connected somehow.

lol. every skydiver has rubber bands- you ever seen a D-bag?

i thought i had kept my paper bags well hidden though

Oh, and my neighbour 3 doors down on the other side of the road is a Mr Cooper... not Dan or Sam but still; do you think I should put him under surveillance?

well now you're just taunting me to post the exact number of yards between your house and Mr. Cooper's house.

[Orange1 0]

At this point maybe some definitions would be useful. It's harder than you might think to find the definitions.

1. olive-colored - the dull, yellowish-green color of the unripe olive fruit
- having a dark complexion tinged with this color

2. ruddy
adj 1: inclined to a healthy reddish color often associated with outdoor life; "a ruddy complexion";

3. Latin was hard to find in terms of complexion (because of the google search term coming up with other meanings) but the top skincare site that came up seems to think it is interchangeable with olive:
If you are Latino, you have the firmest skin of any other ethnicity. Your olive pigmentation, which is generally oily with firm skin, can protect you from deep scarring. It may also cause many problems for your complexion.
[Incidentally: historically - as in Ancient Rome - "Latin skin" was referred to as "white" skin in direct contrast to the darker skin of the Greeks...]

4. Golden ash- this confuses me. I couldn't find a definition of it. Golden implies tanned to me, ash implies white. There is a tree called a Golden Ash. Its leaves change colour during the year and its bark is golden. http://www.maryrobertson.co.nz/golden-ash.html Does this mean golden then and if so, why say "golden ash" and not just "golden"?

The only reason I list all the above is that I'm inclined to think that different people may have different ideas which may have coloured (pun not intended) the descriptions they give. Most people I know, for example, would indeed use Latin and olive interchangeably.

But this is interesting to me, because I get different ideas from the different descriptions. Specifically, a Latin or olive complexion to me would imply a particular ethnicity background. Ruddy to golden sounds more like a tan.

So I feel like I am running in circles here and the easiest would be to see a colour sketch by the artist. Jo, you have posted various sketches before, do you happen to have a copy of the one you refer to to post here? You have obviously at least seen it as you say it is not the same as your complexion.

(I'm a little confused by the journalist who cannot share his findings with the public. Isn't that what journalists do?)

Edited to add: just to clarify - Jo, when you say "Indian" you mean Native American, not Indian as in India?

Skydiving: wasting fossil fuels just for fun.

[Orange1 0]

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well now you're just taunting me to post the exact number of yards between your house and Mr. Cooper's house.

Believe it or not, that information actually is available on the web. But you have to be living in our suburb to register on the relevant website. If you're that determined to hack in, well...
by the way, we don't have yards here, we have metres, so you would have to convert

Skydiving: wasting fossil fuels just for fun.

[snowmman 3]

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well now you're just taunting me to post the exact number of yards between your house and Mr. Cooper's house.

Believe it or not, that information actually is available on the web. But you have to be living in our suburb to register on the relevant website. If you're that determined to hack in, well...
by the way, we don't have yards here, we have metres, so you would have to convert

Anything that is in anyone's brain is on the web.
A lot of stuff that isn't in anyone's brain is on the web.
Anything that creates social value (groups) is on the web.
Anything that creates money is on the web.
Anything that can manipulate people is on the web.

Also: the eye in the sky can tell stuff if you're on planet earth: google earth/google maps. The stuff they're doing driving around taking pictures extends that.

it's interesting, in some cities you can easily see cars parked outside homes, so you can get a guess at the automobiles people own or other stuff, like hobby activities, (boats etc).

Like I said: big brother is not the 1984. it's big neighbor to worry about!

[snowmman 3]

Ted was 7 years older than brother Dave.
I've attached a picture of Ted (9) and Dave (2) with the family's pet parakeet. And a picture of Ted as a baby in Chicago, Oct. 1942. Other pics at
http://www.chicagotribune.com/news/specials/chi-080302ted-photogallery,0,7753132.photogallery?index=chi-ted009t20080212130409

Following text from wikipedia.

Interestingly, I had never heard about the real connection with MKULTRA. Remember how I was joking about it with Duane? Real life is sometimes more bizarre than one can imagine.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Theodore_Kaczynski
Dr. Theodore John Kaczynski (born May 22, 1942), also known as the Unabomber, is an American mathematician and social critic who carried out a campaign of bombings. He was born in Chicago, Illinois, and excelled in academics at a young age. Kaczynski received an undergraduate degree from Harvard University and earned a PhD in mathematics from the University of Michigan. He became an assistant professor at the University of California, Berkeley at age 25 but resigned two years later. In 1971, he moved to a remote cabin in Lincoln, Montana. From 1978 to 1995, Kaczynski sent 16 bombs to targets including universities and airlines, killing three people and injuring 23.

Kaczynski sent a letter to The New York Times on April 24, 1995 and promised "to desist from terrorism" if The New York Times or The Washington Post published his manifesto. In his Industrial Society and Its Future (also called the "Unabomber Manifesto"), he argued that his bombings were extreme but necessary to attract attention to the erosion of human freedom necessitated by modern technologies requiring large-scale organization.

Early life

Kaczynski was born on May 22, 1942, in Chicago, Illinois to second-generation Polish Americans Theodore Richard Kaczynski and wife Wanda Dombek.[1] From grades one through four, Kaczynski attended Sherman Elementary School in Chicago. He attended grades five through eight at Evergreen Park Central school.[2] As a result of testing conducted in the fifth grade which determined he had an intelligence quotient of 167,[3] he was allowed to skip the sixth grade and enroll in the seventh grade. Kaczynski described this as a pivotal event in his life. He recalled not fitting in with the older children and being subjected to their verbal abuse and teasing. As a child, Kaczynski had a fear of people and buildings, and played beside other children rather than interacting with them. His mother was so worried by his poor social development that she considered entering him in a study for autistic children led by Bruno Bettelheim.[2]

He attended high school at Evergreen Park Community High School. Kaczynski did well academically, but found the mathematics too simple during his sophomore year. He was subsequently placed in a more advanced math class. Kaczynski quickly mastered the material, and skipped the eleventh grade. With the help of a summer school course for English, he completed his high school education two years early. He was encouraged to apply to Harvard University, and was subsequently accepted as a student beginning in Fall 1958 at the age of 16. While at Harvard, Kaczynski was taught by famed logician Willard Quine, scoring at the top of Quine's class with a 98.9% final grade. He also participated in a multiple-year personality study conducted by Dr. Henry Murray, an expert on stress interviews.[2]

Students in Murray's Central Intelligence Agency (CIA)-sponsored study, dubbed MKULTRA, were told they would be debating personal philosophy with a fellow student.[4] Instead, they were subjected to the stress test, which was an extremely stressful and prolonged psychological attack by an anonymous attorney. During the test, students were strapped into a chair and connected to electrodes that monitored their physiological reactions, while facing bright lights and a two-way mirror. This was filmed, and students' expressions of impotent rage were played back to them several times later in the study. According to Chase, Kaczynski's records from that period suggest he was emotionally stable when the study began. Kaczynski's lawyers attributed some of his emotional instability and dislike of mind control to his participation in this study.[4][5]