DB Cooper

[SKYWHUFFO 1]

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thanks skywhuffo
looks to be 15 of them? not sure if these are resales of the previous bills auctioned or sold or whether these are new ingram bills. He didn't sell everything he had at the last auction

to see 15

http://shop.ebay.com/?_from=R40&_trksid=m38&_nkw=d.b.+cooper+ransom+money

to see what I think is the best one (it's a darker one too, which is rarer? It's a pretty full one)

http://cgi.liveauctions.ebay.com/47224-D-B-Cooper-1971-Ransom-Money-1963A-20-PCGS_W0QQcmdZViewItemQQ_trkparmsZ72Q3a1205Q7c66Q3a2Q7c65Q3a12Q7c39Q3a1Q7c240Q3a1318QQ_trksidZp3286Q2ec0Q2em14QQhashZitem260315708620QQitemZ260315708620QQptZLHQ5fDefaultDomainQ5f0

(edit) higher resolution photos are available directly at the auction site
http://www.ha.com/common/search_items.php?txtSearch=d.b.+cooper&chkAuctions=1&chkInventory=1&ic=homepage_search&hdnSearch=true&optGlobalSearch=1

HEY SNOW, come clean now, one bid on bid on the money is that you? You think Ckret has any in a frame sitting around his house "on loan"? HA! I think Sluggo deserves a small piece of one from the FBI as a reward for his hard work and findings that turnes the case.
On a serious note Snow, Max gunther's story about the lady who doctored Cooper after he landed. Is there any credibility in it and where did it supose to take place compared to the new data of Sluggos landing area.

[snowmman 3]

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Max gunther's story about the lady who doctored Cooper after he landed. Is there any credibility in it and where did it supose to take place compared to the new data of Sluggos landing area.

Well, I've only read two of the Cooper books out there, Norjak and Tosaw's. The various summaries I've seen of Gunther's made me think there was no way there would anything interesting in his book. Doesn't mean there isn't, just seemed unlikely.

At the last auction, I cropped some of the better high resolution photos of bills and posted them here. You have to click thru a couple of appropriate places at the auction site to get the highest resolution photos, and unless you're diligent, you might miss the best they have.

So I grabbed the "best" looking one and cropped it and it's attached.

In all the bills from Ingram that we get, I've been looking for evidence of rubber bands around the bundle. I don't know what that might be, but maybe compression, or differing decomposition around the area of the rubber band, or different discoloring.

I'm wondering if this bill might be showing something. As a guess, I'm wondering if the rubber bands were very narrow, like 1/16", instead of say 1/4". And the rubber bands maybe were sized to fit around the bundle just once..i.e. you know how long rubber bands you double them up? I'm thinking the rubber bands on these bundles were narrow and not doubled up.

Just guessing. Take a look at the bill. (first)

Dark bills, I'm guessing, are more likely to show rubber band marks, since I'm guessing the darkness means they were near the top or bottom of the actual bundle. (edit) I say this because the occurence of dark bills is apparently less than that of light bills.

(edit) The amount of rubber in the rubber bands is important to understand, if we're to create a mental model of the decomposition of the rubber vs the currency, and also the compression caused by the rubber band over time.

(edit) Bid? Why bid when you can hire some DZ.com jumpers to do a night jump onto the roof of the auction house, make their way thru vents and....uh, take pictures of the bills?

(edit) two more of the new auction bills attached. Note the last one has a small amount of the brown staining we've seen on other bills, which I also wonder if it might be related to the "leach" stains on the folder the FBI uses to store their bills (which was weird since Tom K has his now in plastic evidence bags. A little late!)

[skyjack71 0]

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On a serious note Snow, Max gunther's story about the lady who doctored Cooper after he landed. Is there any credibility in it and where did it supose to take place compared to the new data of Sluggos landing area.[/reply

You do realize that my first knowledge of any details regarding who Dan Cooper was came from the "fictional" book What Really Happened. This is when I learned that the name used by Cooper was Dan Cooper and called the FBI on May 24 1996 - one yr and 2 months after Duane died. This is the book and the night when the flood of memories came.

In that yr and the following yrs I would exchange many phone calls and letters with Max Gunther. He had only 6 phone calls with the mysterious lady - and he changed details such as locations and parts of the country. Only those lines and words in quotations are actual words used by Clara. To write a book on 6 phone conversztion and one written communication required a lot of fiction

Max did contact the FBI and I think he made a copy of some communications with Clara and a man who wrote "Dear Group" plus another letter to Max Gunther.

Max and I believe the lady who called herself Clara and Duane's ex may have been the same person (Max knew something he never shared with me). If you will closely examine a document supposedly written by D.B. Cooper in that Book to Max Gunther - you will note something I only found at this very moment.

The letter in structs Max to place this add.

Happy Birthday xx Clara. Max.

The way letter sounded like Duane and the way he wrote, but only on this examination did I see something else...every time I go back to the very beginning I find something I missed before. I just took a magnifying glass to this to be sure I was seeing what I think I am seeing. Two letters scunched up and typed back over it. Under a magnifying glass it is x and something I don't recognize. Or is it something else?

I am surprised the FBI has missed this ALL of these Yrs. Perhaps I am seeing what I want to see - after all I am just a sick dislusional old woman...who is calculating and all of the other things that have been said about me...

Both Max and I believe that the two women where the same - I saved every letter Max wrote to me. I have enquired as to what happened to Max's things after his death - but NO one seems to know.

I had multiple phone conversation with Duane's ex before her death - she was a little mischievous and with a sense of humor. The stories she told me over the yrs - leaked out things that are in the book - although she denied ever having read the book.

Max explained how he changed locations and reverted information Clara told him about her beloved Cooper. Such as, Max belived the phone calls to come from an entirely different place than what she gave him the impression of. He took sequences that happened before the jump and made them after the jump - about changing his name.

The FBI ignored Max in the yrs before he wrote the book and me when I tried to tell the FBI this before they went to commence with a certain part of their investigation.

What I was told by another person in regards to this has been ignored - regarding things that happened prior to the FBI paying a visit to this woman. A one time happen chance conversation (with another person) that was an opportunity for a certain individual to either cleanse her soul or to add a little salt to my wounds...the conversation seemed earnest.

Copyright 2006, 2007, 2008, 2009, 2010, 2011, 2012 2013, 2014, 2015 by Jo Weber

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[snowmman 3]

There are a number of things we can discuss about what's in the Tom K. video. I don't know if these things were presented as things people would like us to see or imagine or what, but we can discuss it. What's real or fake is a different story.

I'll start it off with a discussion of the apparent liquid nitrogen Tom seems to be handling and pouring.

Apparently, one use of liquid nitrogen with scanning electron microscopes (SEM) is to cool x-ray detector crystals that are used in EDX: Energy Dispersive X-ray microanalysis. From looking at the SEM in the video, I "think" there's a tank on the side of the SEM for the liquid N2. Comparing it to an SEM set up for EDX, it does look similar.

EDX is used to analyse the elemental content of a sample. There is further info in the video that suggests that might be the focus also. At first blush, I would have thought microbial decomposition might be a focus, but there's a number of things that say not.

We can discuss the mason jars next. Pics of apparent liquid N2 handling by Tom attached. (snapped from the KOIN video)

[Sluggo_Monster 0]

From:
D. B. Cooper: What Really Happened by Max Gunther; 1985; Contemporary Books. Inc.

4th plate in photo section following page 122 (un-numbered page)

See Max Gunther Letter.jpg and Happy Birthday Clara 1200 dpi.jpg (attached)

Web Page
Blog
NORJAK Forum

[snowmman 3]

First we have the FBI acknowledging an investigative error (the flight path comment on the KOIN video)

Then we have Jo confessing:

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after all I am just a sick dislusional old woman...who is calculating and all of the other things that have been said about me...

Next you're going to tell me the US economy is actually going to make a full recovery in the future.

[snowmman 3]

examining the suspected "Du" crossout.

IBM selectrics Composer introduced proportional fonts in typewriters. This detail was at the base of the analysis of the fake supposed National Guard letter regarding George Bush (faked with Microsoft Word !)

But the typewriter used in the "Happy Birthday ..." jpg above, seems to have fixed letter spacing? Except for the weird half-u after the D-x combo?

If that was really a u, it would be spaced further from the "D" wouldn't it?

It doesn't seem to make sense? Can someone explain a scenario?

Sluggo: when I blow up the Happy Birthday jpeg, it doesn't look like it was scanned from a book. Was it? If so, can you provide a lower resolution scan of the page it was on?

(edit) or maybe it wasn't created with a typewriter? was it typeset? where the heck did it come from? And why would the guy who rejected reading all Cooper books, have access to a Max Gunther book?

[snowmman 3]

reading the max gunther letter, I may be misremembering, but wasn't 1962 the last time someone at DZ.com got laid?

JOKE!

[snowmman 3]

I did a little cutout of the words around "disapear-"
in the Max Gunther letter Sluggo provided.

From what I can see, I think the s was written in with pen or pencil after the typewritting.

This, if true, could explain the weird u-like thing after the crossed out D.

Just speculating.

There is another typewritten s in this attach. You can see the clear font difference (as well as the spacing problem)

(edit) There is a p missing in "disappear-" also
(edit) updated this post to use single p in "disapear"

[mark 107]

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examining the suspected "Du" crossout.

IBM selectrics Composer introduced proportional fonts in typewriters. This detail was at the base of the analysis of the fake supposed National Guard letter regarding George Bush (faked with Microsoft Word !)

But the typewriter used in the "Happy Birthday ..." jpg above, seems to have fixed letter spacing? Except for the weird half-u after the D-x combo?

If that was really a u, it would be spaced further from the "D" wouldn't it?

It doesn't seem to make sense? Can someone explain a scenario?

The Olivetti manual typewriter I owned in 1971 had a half-space feature: when you pressed the space bar down, the carriage moved a half space; when you released the space bar, the carriage moved another half space.

If you typed "If yo typed" you could erase the "yo" and insert "you" with a half space before and after. You wouldn't have to erase and retype the entire line.

Erasure could be done with a pencil eraser on some kinds of typing paper. Otherwise, you could use a typing eraser, white-out paper paint, or special eraser paper.

The eraser paper came in small sheets, about 1" x 3", with a white-outilike substance on the back. You backspaced to your typo, inserted the eraser paper, and retyped the typo to transfer the white to the paper. Then you took the eraser paper out and typed in your correction. If you inserted the paper to a previously used position, you would not get full coverage of the typo.

The Smith-Corona electric typewriter I owned about 10 years later used a ribbon cartridge to do the same thing; corrections involved switching the regular ribbon for the correcting tape and back again.

So one possible (though unlikely) scenario is typo, incomplete correction, then strikeover.

I don't think that's a half-space or partial "u" because all the other "u" have serifs.

Mark

[snowmman 3]

very good detail Mark.

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I don't think that's a half-space or partial "u" because all the other "u" have serifs.

Did you see my post just now about the s in "disapear-"
(I didn't realize only one p was there till after I posted)

What do you think? do you agree on the possibility of hand-penned (you noted the lack of serifs)

[mark 107]

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very good detail Mark.

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I don't think that's a half-space or partial "u" because all the other "u" have serifs.

Did you see my post just now about the s in "disapear-"
(I didn't realize only one p was there till after I posted)

What do you think? do you agree on the possibility of hand-penned (you noted the lack of serifs)

I don't think hand-penned is likely. The place to have hand-penned was in "diapear" and instead there is the distinctive "s" (lower left missing) half-spaced in. (It's possible to hold the carriage in position if there isn't a half-space feature, but you have to be good to hold it in exactly the right position.)

"diapear" is only one letter away from "diaper." Sometimes my fingers type automatically -- how about the letter writer's?

Mark

[snowmman 3]

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very good detail Mark.

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I don't think that's a half-space or partial "u" because all the other "u" have serifs.

Did you see my post just now about the s in "disapear-"
(I didn't realize only one p was there till after I posted)

What do you think? do you agree on the possibility of hand-penned (you noted the lack of serifs)

I don't think hand-penned is likely. The place to have hand-penned was in "diapear" and instead there is the distinctive "s" (lower left missing) squashed in.

"diapear" is only one letter away from "diaper." Sometimes my fingers type automatically -- how about the letter writer's?

Mark

good thought. I know when I type, I just have a conversation in my head..I think the words and don't think about my fingers...they kind of go by themselves. Sometimes I read what I wrote afterwards, sometimes not. But yeah, I've posted with wrong words before. "their" "there" etc. synonyms I guess for me. Sometimes spelling errors. I always have a problem with the right number of i's in possibility.

[snowmman 3]

Here's a picture of the cover of the True magazine referenced in the Max Gunther letter (attached)

Issue contained the article:
"Do-It-Yourself Divorce for Fed-Up Males"
by Max Gunther.

(edit) related: Max Gunther, “The Female Fears that Bind a Man,” True, February 1965

Max wrote many magazine articles and at least 26 books during his life?

(edit) In "Bad Laws Can Make Your Wife Your Warden", Gunther told the story of "Fred W." who planned to divorce his neurotic wife when she and her psychiatrist combined forces to have him committted to an insane asylum. Once released, Fred had to obey his wife or face recommitment. (He instead drove his wife insane and had her committed, which Gunther portrayed as a heroic victory). True magazine, August 1963, Vol 49, pp 65-69.

(edit) info was from http://www.lib.umd.edu/drum/bitstream/1903/3355/1/umi-umd-3155.pdf which while large can be searched for some interesting thoughts about post WWII psychology/views (it's a dissertation, caveat emptor)

[skyjack71 0]

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From:
D. B. Cooper: What Really Happened by Max Gunther; 1985; Contemporary Books. Inc.

4th plate in photo section following page 122 (un-numbered page)

See Max Gunther Letter.jpg and Happy Birthday Clara 1200 dpi.jpg (attached)

Looks like he typed a Capital D and the went back and struck a small x over it. But what causes the tail - simular to a u but not quite complete - note the the u's were not complete in some of the text. But, then of course I as public consenus has it, I am going to make it as small u.

Someone give me a take on this.

There was something I noticed with this yrs ago - the way the wording is arranged and the mispelled words ---

Max connected this letter to Clara and so do I - do you know why - note they are several yrs apart?

Copyright 2006, 2007, 2008, 2009, 2010, 2011, 2012 2013, 2014, 2015 by Jo Weber

[skyjack71 0]

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examining the suspected "Du" crossout.

IBM selectrics Composer introduced proportional fonts in typewriters. This detail was at the base of the analysis of the fake supposed National Guard letter regarding George Bush (faked with Microsoft Word !)

But the typewriter used in the "Happy Birthday ..." jpg above, seems to have fixed letter spacing? Except for the weird half-u after the D-x combo?

If that was really a u, it would be spaced further from the "D" wouldn't it?

It doesn't seem to make sense? Can someone explain a scenario?

This was an old MANUAL typewriter and it was sticking. 1972 - this was typed on a very old maual even in 1972.

Copyright 2006, 2007, 2008, 2009, 2010, 2011, 2012 2013, 2014, 2015 by Jo Weber

[snowmman 3]

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D. B. Cooper: What Really Happened by Max Gunther; 1985; Contemporary Books. Inc.

Max connected this letter to Clara and so do I - do you know why - note they are several yrs apart?

What I don't understand is that the plate gives the postmark of the letter as Feb. 10, 1972, yet the book wasn't published until 1985.

What was the delay? Why did Gunther take so long to write the book?

(edit) Did the FBI compare the typewriter printing in this Gunther letter to the typewriter printing in the '71 letters I mentioned. (The one Jo said she didn't know about. That Ckret hopefully will get for us next year)

(edit)

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this was typed on a very old maual even in 1972.

I'll assume you're just randomly guessing as usual Jo. Or do you have some data?

[skyjack71 0]

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D. B. Cooper: What Really Happened by Max Gunther; 1985; Contemporary Books. Inc.

Max connected this letter to Clara and so do I - do you know why - note they are several yrs apart?

What I don't understand is that the plate gives the postmark of the letter as Feb. 10, 1972, yet the book wasn't published until 1985.

What was the delay? Why did Gunther take so long to write the book?

(edit) Did the FBI compare the typewriter printing in this Gunther letter to the typewriter printing in the '71 letters I mentioned. (The one Jo said she didn't know about. That Ckret hopefully will get for us next year)

Max contacted the FBI early on - it was later when he wrote the book after Clara contacted him. He provided either the original or a copy to the FBI, but I don't remember which he said. It would be the 80's before Clara contacted Max.

I know the ex was "shocked" he had lived until 1995. It took her two phone calls to get her composure.,,there was a contact in 1990 by Duane . I believe this is when he learned of the book...one more reason he needed to get the John Collins ID renewed. NOTE: I say I believe not that I know he learned of the book in early 1990.

He was on the machine and didn't think he would make it for very long...he started to make his amends with friends and relatives. I know there was a call to CA. in the early 1990 shop records...but when I checked the number yrs later it belonged to an insurance company or affiliate.

Copyright 2006, 2007, 2008, 2009, 2010, 2011, 2012 2013, 2014, 2015 by Jo Weber

[snowmman 3]

How did we jump to Duane?
What makes you think any of that has anything to do with Duane?
(edit) I don't even understand how Max made the Clara connection to the '72 letter. Did Max never publish the '72 letter? If he did, some random nutcase might have contacted him as "Clara". Do we know? Where there other communications from "D.B. Cooper". I'm totally confused. I thought Gunther had communications with Clara. Now you say he had communications with Cooper. How many?

[skyjack71 0]

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How did we jump to Duane?
What makes you think any of that has anything to do with Duane?
I don't even understand how Max made the Clara connection to the '72 letter. Did Max never publish the '72 letter? If he did, some random nutcase might have contacted him as "Clara". Do we know? Where there other communications from "D.B. Cooper". I'm totally confused. I thought Gunther had communications with Clara. Now you say he had communications with Cooper. How many?

Snowman I didn't JUMP - I simply answered the posts as I was reading them. I am the one who brought the letter up and then Sluggo enlarged it. Maybe he was seeing what I have been seeing for yrs.

It was after you or Georger posted the other letter I had never seen, supposedly from Cooper that caused me to start LOOKING back again at why I thought Duane was Cooper when I read that Book.

So much has happened over the last 13 yrs that I forget to go back to the very beginning and back to basics - to the time I didn't have computer and all I had was a telephone and typewriter - and back to my many conversations with MAX and our exchange of letters.

Most of it is in the book - Max's involvement was from early 1972 by a man who claimed to be Cooper. The ad was run in the Village Voice in N.Y. He turns this over to the FBI and puts it aside, but then comes the contacts from Clara several yrs later. Something said in one of the conversations made a connection between Clara to the caller.

I do not remember if Max made the contact by this "supposed Cooper" public knowledge prior to being contacted by "Clara",
Perhaps it was all an elaborate hoax to promote a book. Hardly since he went to the FBI .

It would be interesting to know how much publicity there was about this letter. If there had been I am sure there were many Clara's who contacted Max. So many question Snowmman - where were you when Max and I had our conversations???

These are the questions I needed to ask MAX. I have tried to find out what happened to MAX's files to no avail. I hope they were archived and not just thrown away by his family or co-workers.

Copyright 2006, 2007, 2008, 2009, 2010, 2011, 2012 2013, 2014, 2015 by Jo Weber

[snowmman 3]

Ok, well then at least we're not talking about Duane again then. (edit) What the heck would the John Collins ID have to do with Gunther?

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The ad was run in the Village Voice in N.Y. He turns this over to the FBI and puts it aside, but then comes the contacts from Clara several yrs later. Something said in one of the conversations made a connection between Clara to the caller.

So the caller never self-identified as Clara? Max (or his proxy) decided the caller was Clara? Or the original Cooper may have never had a Clara, and that was just a random code, and Max decided that since the caller was a woman, she was Clara?

How did Max make the connection, if there was one?

(edit) Did the original Cooper contact him again after the ad was placed? Apparently not, or the book wouldn't have been delayed until the much later "Clara-wannabe-apparently-must-be" appeared? Was Clara a night clerk?

(edit) I would note that even though there are spelling errors, the gunther letter is well laid-out for a proper business letter. The dashes are inserted at approprate places for split words? when the typewriter is close to the end of a line (remember this stuff was all done manually back then! periods, commas etc seem well placed.

There's no closing though, like "Yours" or "Thank you"

The salutation "Dear Mr. Gunther:" correctly has a colon for a business letter.

This is all interesting, because back then, fewer men would have taken a typing course (I did in high school), and would have known how to do the letter properly? It is nicely done, isn't it? Female secretaries did a lot of the typing back then.

(edit) it looks like that D is the sole correction with overstrike? (insertions not counted). Probably didn't have any erasure method? Whoever wrote it was a good typist. But not a secretary. Not good enough. But pretty good.

(edit) oddly enough, even though the magazine article was 10 years old (1962), the author of the letter gets the title exactly correct (from memory?) ...including the dashes in "Fed-up" and "Do-It-Yourself"..including the correct capitalization (which probably matches the article)? I know this because the source of the cover I provided had transcribed it from the table of contents. I'm assuming he did the capitalization as in the TOC.


Could Max have faked the letter himself? Seems most likely.

[SKYWHUFFO 1]

DAMN! I just asked a simple question about a book I saw on Ebay and did a little search about and was curious to hear the whole story about. From this i threw gas on the Snow Vs. Jo Part IV I apologize to the DZ.commers for starting it up again.

[snowmman 3]

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DAMN! I just asked a simple question about a book I saw on Ebay and did a little search about and was curious to hear the whole story about. From this i threw gas on the Snow Vs. Jo Part IV I apologize to the DZ.commers for starting it up again.

I apologize if I used too many posts. I had never looked at the Gunther book, so it was educational for me. But I'm done.

But no one was interested in analyzing the KOIN video more after my SEM/EDX post? Do people think about the Tom K. video at all as having any info? or no? or ??

[wolfriverjoe 1,523]

Tom K video was mostly a teaser. A news piece for those who haven't bothered to read all 6000+ posts. Interesting that he thinks most witness testimony is wrong, but he doesn't say how it is wrong, or what he thinks is right.

BTW, in the General forum, there is a thread "I want to see pictures of cool looking rigs" Post 92 has 2 pics of belly reserves attached to old style rigs. Pretty decent shots of how they hook. I still wonder if Cooper couldn't have attached the training dummy somewhere on the NB6. Not a strong enough connection for the reserve to work (it wouldn't have anyway) but well enough to stay. 377 said it wouldn't hook on the main web straps. What about the chest strap, hardware somewhere, or ??

"There are NO situations which do not call for a French Maid outfit." Lucky McSwervy

"~ya don't GET old by being weak & stupid!" - Airtwardo

[snowmman 3]

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Tom K video was mostly a teaser. A news piece for those who haven't bothered to read all 6000+ posts. Interesting that he thinks most witness testimony is wrong, but he doesn't say how it is wrong, or what he thinks is right.

BTW, in the General forum, there is a thread "I want to see pictures of cool looking rigs" Post 92 has 2 pics of belly reserves attached to old style rigs. Pretty decent shots of how they hook. I still wonder if Cooper couldn't have attached the training dummy somewhere on the NB6. Not a strong enough connection for the reserve to work (it wouldn't have anyway) but well enough to stay. 377 said it wouldn't hook on the main web straps. What about the chest strap, hardware somewhere, or ??

Hi Wolf.
How do you know the Tom K. video was a teaser?
You think it was a stage show? I agree it is strange it sounds like he's saying the Ingrams were wrong, but doesn't back it up.

We can discuss the following two snaps from the video, to go along with the SEM/EDX idea.
(attached)

(edit) I've never seen a real scientist be so anal about labelling with a real labelmaker. (edit) Maybe they're printed paper from a PC?. There are other questions, but the labels almost look like they're for show. The dates are 11/13/08. I thought the dream team was supposedly working on this for a while. Something does smell fishy in denmark. But not sure.

Not ignoring your other comments..just wondering.

(edit) Another fishy "for show" thing could be the map that's on the screen of the PC. (3rd attach) You can see the L of the columbia. It's the vicinity of the new DZ area. The dark spots I think are Vancouver Lake and ??? Unclear if there are any newly labelled areas on the map there. Can't read the postit note :)