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If by setting the parameters so there was no choice but V 23, why not just say, "fly V23"
But if you agree that there is no choice, but V-23 then why did he need to say it?
The planes path could be tracked in every way regardless of Coopers demands.
If he wanted V-23 and didn't explicitly say so, it had nothing to do with the path of the flight being tracked. Heck if this was the case he knew basically where the track of the plane would be. And knowing the track has done very little to solve the case in first 37 years.
So why not just say V 23? Cooper gained nothing by being evasive, he only set himself up for failure. By not declaring a flight path Cooper was the only one blind.
Did you know about victor airways and jet routes before the discussion here or taking on the case? I tend to think the at or below 10,000, flaps at 15 showed some degree of aviation knowledge (not necessarily much). However, if Cooper would've said you must fly V-23 it would immediately reveal significantly more information about himself than what needed to be revealed. It also would've changed the course of the investigation. Focus would've immediately turned to pilots, air traffic controllers, jump masters, and anyone else who would be familiar with aviation.
Why, for those forwarding this idea, are you not answering this question? Why? why? why? would Cooper not just tell the crew fly V 23, for the love of all that is good in this world please answer the question.
I apologize I thought I did.
The nukester
Thank you Mr. Nuke,
I feel like you "get it". When I finish my project, I think it will help those unfamiliar with the flight and navigation issues to better understand.
Thanks again.
Sluggo_Monster
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georger 268
Sluggo: I thought there was some discussion in the transcripts of changing the flap/wheel configuration after Cooper had jumped. (which would be a prediction)
Do we know that the flap/wheel configuration was consistent thru the flight, so that the fuel burns mentioned were consistent thru the flight?
I don't think we do?
REPLY: There was this very discussion. It was concluded flight configs changed or as Sluggo pointed out, they would have burned out before reaching Reno. If you recall I finally posted to say: "but they did land at Reno nonstop". So obviously flight configs changed. The transcript does document 11000 ft near the end,
for example.
This sets up just one more large contradiction. We
know they changed flight configs. We know if nothing
else they did change altitude to 11000 (TR10/11
say so). And at the same time they supposedly dont know Cooper is gone? Can't have it both ways. They
knew Coopoeras gone and there had been plenty of discussion about it with NWA. They altered configs and
went on to Reno rather than landing ("as soon as he bails") which ahd been their earlier instruction.
Now, just looking at Sluggo's tic map Sluggo also issued a velocity breakdown for each leg between tics. I repost that below. Relating to fuel consumption,
how did 305 travel at 202.8 kts (19:57-58) then at
165 knots (58-59), and 243.6 at (20:01-02) then at
182.4 (02-03). I dont understand these large variations in air speed spearated by only 60 seconds each. Maybe that has something to do with fuel
consumption? I must not understand Sluggo's chart.
Thanks.
A few posts ago I made a joke:
***If you have a “Take Your Kid to Work Day,” can I pretend I’m your son and spend the day at the Seattle FBI Office (I promise I won’t go into the basement)?[/quote}
But, seriously, that got me thinking about something. This forum has a lot of people, with differing backgrounds, knowledge, and skill, participating. We are all “knowledge hungry” and never seen to get enough “factual information.”
Every once in a while, in response to a question, you’ll reach into your evidence (toy) box and pull out a tid-bit. (eg. The “Parachute Instruction Sheet.”)
I can’t help but wonder how many items in all those evidence boxes, that don’t mean crap to you, or that seem insignificant to you, that would help the rest of us better understand some of the decisions that have been made by the FBI, or could stimulate a whole new line of inquiry.
You and I have discussed (privately and publically), the issue of FBI work product, and the fact that you can’t release that to the public. I think all of us (except some of the anarchist) respect that.
But, how can we know what questions to ask? I don’t think I would ever have thought to ask; “Did Cossey send an instruction sheet with the parachutes?” How can we increase the flow of information in this direction?
As I said before, I sometimes feel like I’m looking through a narrow slit in the door, and unless she moves into just the right position, I can’t see……. Oh! I didn’t mean to go there!

Anyway, bring out some more tid-bits… The dogs are hungry, they need to be fed.
Sluggo_Monster
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REPLY: There was this very discussion. It was concluded flight configs changed or as Sluggo pointed out, they would have burned out before reaching Reno. If you recall I finally posted to say: "but they did land at Reno nonstop". So obviously flight configs changed. The transcript does document 11000 ft near the end, for example.
This sets up just one more large contradiction. We
know they changed flight configs. We know if nothing
else they did change altitude to 11000 (TR10/11
say so). And at the same time they supposedly dont know Cooper is gone? Can't have it both ways. They
knew Coopoeras gone and there had been plenty of discussion about it with NWA. They altered configs and
went on to Reno rather than landing ("as soon as he bails") which ahd been their earlier instruction.
Now, just looking at Sluggo's tic map Sluggo also issued a velocity breakdown for each leg between tics. I repost that below. Relating to fuel consumption,
how did 305 travel at 202.8 kts (19:57-58) then at
165 knots (58-59), and 243.6 at (20:01-02) then at
182.4 (02-03). I dont understand these large variations in air speed spearated by only 60 seconds each. Maybe that has something to do with fuel
consumption? I must not understand Sluggo's chart.
Thanks.
I think it's due to the plus or minus 1 NM stated error in the radar data and the fact that the tic-marks are all on the even minute (i.e. 20:11 as opposed to 20:11:15). That could produce a lot of variation right there. If the tic-marks were at 15 second deltas (about 0.7 NM each) you would probably get a much different picture. But alas, I'm just guessing. We still have absolutely nothing in the way of explanation for the chart. It was just plopped down on our table, and we made a lot of assumptions. I think they were reasonable assumptions, but assumptions none the less.
Maybe Ckret has some accompanying information that we don’t have.
Sluggo_Monster
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I misstated something.
On the LZ map data the error was expressed like this:
The north-south span of possible jump positions is a product of the radar position tolerance of ± 0.5 mile, and the possible communication time determination tolerance of ±1 minute.
Then later it says; If it is assumed aircraft position, jump time, wind vector, and other inputs are all accurate (without allowance for the above stated tolerances):….
I assume it is the same for the 1971 Seattle Sectional (because it is the same data).
Sluggo_Monster
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georger 268
Ckret,
In my opinion it’s “all about” the two turns. A 27º Left-Turn (at MALAY Fix) and a 24º Right-Turn (at the BTG VOR). Turns easily measured with (even a cheap) compass.
You could feel those two turns without a compass. The one thing if we are going with this theory that I would like to have is a stopwatch though, but like a compass in this case that is more of a backup tool to reconfirm what you suspect. It doesn't get much "easier" than this section of v-23 to do what Sluggo is suggesting.
Stopwatch doesnt help if air velocity varies wildly as
in Sluggo's tic chart ?
377 22
If by setting the parameters so there was no choice but V 23, why not just say, "fly V23" The planes path could be tracked in every way regardless of Coopers demands. So why not just say V 23? Cooper gained nothing by being evasive, he only set himself up for failure. By not declaring a flight path Cooper was the only one blind.
Why, for those forwarding this idea, are you not answering this question? Why? why? why? would Cooper not just tell the crew fly V 23, for the love of all that is good in this world please answer the question.
If Cooper needed V23 he could have asked directly, but that would show he knew a lot about flying, about local sectional charts, which would have narrowed the list of suspects. It does indeed look like Cooper assured that V 23 would be picked by issuing contraints that left only one resolution available... but, somtimes retropective analysis makes random stuff look really coherent and clever. I think it is possible that Cooper had no idea what V 23 was let alone how to get the crew to fly it without ever mentioning it explicitly.
We seem to be focused intensely on where Cooper jumped. Lets get some parallel dialog on who he might have been. I say he was not a skydiver, and had big debts with high pressure to pay. I also think there is a high probablility that he had no prior felony criminal record. I stand ready to be proven wrong. Fire away.
Man…. I hate to say it this way…. But if you insist….
36.5 years of no missing person, no body, and no capture. Just 284 of 10,000 bills found on a sand bar. Something worked (from a “solution to the crime” standpoint), whether he lived or died.
36.5 years later and he still keeps you and me (and Himmelsbach, I understand) awake at night.
That’s Why? Why? Why?
I promised, for me , now, the question is How? How? How?
Sluggo_Monster
If you have a “Take Your Kid to Work Day,” can I pretend I’m your son and spend the day at the Seattle FBI Office (I promise I won’t go into the basement)?
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