Did Kittenger really go supersonic?

[SkydiveJack 1]

I’m curious about something and I hope someone out there can help. I remember reading a book many many years ago about Kittengers jump. I recall it stating that he approached very close to the speed of sound but never did go Mach 1. Then around ten years ago I saw Kittenger on some Discovery Channel program saying he did go supersonic. Does anyone out there know of any verification of him going supersonic from a source other than Kittenger or the TV documentary producers?

Thanks!
Jack

[FlyinseivLP2 0]

I got the chance to meet him about 10 years ago. He was flying some strange bird down to Sun n Fun and stoped at my DZ to fuel. I did not know who he was but someone else did and we talked a bit about his jump. I seem to remember that he got very close to supersonic, but not quite. The most interesting thing about the jump was that it was only his 13th skydive. He joked that if he had more experience that he wouldn't have done it. He is a very interesting person that has done some amazing things in aviation.

[sundevil777 102]

It seems so obvious that the speed of sound would be so low at that altitude that he must have broken it at the 500 or 600 mph he was going, right?

Not so actually, the speed of sound is faster at 400,000 feet than 40,000:

http://www.dropzone.com/cgi-bin/forum/gforum.cgi?post=555381#555381

People are sick and tired of being told that ordinary and decent people are fed up in this country with being sick and tired. I’m certainly not, and I’m sick and tired of being told that I am

[ripcord4 0]

Actually, at 400,000 feet there would be no sound as there is virtually no air to transmit it.

[sundevil777 102]

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Actually, at 400,000 feet there would be no sound as there is virtually no air to transmit it.

If you can prove it wrong, go ahead, but here's the link to the page with the speed of sound vs altitude:

http://www.aerospaceweb.org/question/atmosphere/q0112.shtml

People are sick and tired of being told that ordinary and decent people are fed up in this country with being sick and tired. I’m certainly not, and I’m sick and tired of being told that I am

[SkydiveJack 1]

The focus of my question is this. Did Kittenger officially go supersonic or did he just start making the claim some years ago and the press/documentary producers just take it for granted that it was true? I remember reading a book in my teens that stated that he came close but that he did not go faster than the speed of sound. Can anyone find an official source (not Kittenger or the press) that has the answer?

Jack

[mjosparky 4]

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The focus of my question is this. Did Kittenger officially go supersonic or did he just start making the claim some years ago and the press/documentary producers just take it for granted that it was true? I remember reading a book in my teens that stated that he came close but that he did not go faster than the speed of sound. Can anyone find an official source (not Kittenger or the press) that has the answer?

Jack

He did not go supersonic and he was not it freefall. He had a drouge.

Sparky

My idea of a fair fight is clubbing baby seals

[kallend 2,107]

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Actually, at 400,000 feet there would be no sound as there is virtually no air to transmit it.

If you can prove it wrong, go ahead, but here's the link to the page with the speed of sound vs altitude:

http://www.aerospaceweb.org/question/atmosphere/q0112.shtml

5 significant figure accuracy (as in that table) is pretty stupid, since the atmosphere itself is not stable to 5 significant figures.

...

The only sure way to survive a canopy collision is not to have one.

[SkydiveJack 1]

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The focus of my question is this. Did Kittenger officially go supersonic or did he just start making the claim some years ago and the press/documentary producers just take it for granted that it was true? I remember reading a book in my teens that stated that he came close but that he did not go faster than the speed of sound. Can anyone find an official source (not Kittenger or the press) that has the answer?

Jack

He did not go supersonic and he was not it freefall. He had a drouge.

Sparky

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I believe that you are correct but I would like to know your source of information. Basically I think Kittenger made a false claim and the press has taken it as fact. It was still an incredible jump and achievement. It just seems to me that he tainted it with a lie.

Jack

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[mjosparky 4]

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I believe that you are correct but I would like to know your source of information. Basically I think Kittenger made a false claim and the press has taken it as fact. It was still an incredible jump and achievement. It just seems to me that he tainted it with a lie.

I agree with you that his jump was amazing in it own right. But he did not reach supersonic as documented in several works including the post action report. (I no longer have access to this report) I believe his speed did reach 614 mph.
It is also documented that he deployed a drogue for stability purposes which prevented him from claiming a “freefall” record.

I worked with him briefly on the TAME program and spoke to him on several occasions about the jump. I do not feel he made a false claim or tried to lie. I think the PR people of the Excelsior Project may have over stated the facts and Joe just got caught up in it.

http://records.fai.org/parachuting/current.asp?id1=201&id2=1&id3=14

Sparky

My idea of a fair fight is clubbing baby seals

[skypuppy 1]

Seems to me it came down to altitude. Because the speed of sound is higher at 80,000 ft., he did not attain that speed. However, he did attain speeds in excess of the speed of sound (at sea level), just that as he got lower, his speeds decreased.

I was reading about it in a book called 'The Pre-Astronauts' by Craig Ryan, and 'Great Adventures with National Geographic' (1963 ed.), among others.

How's it going, Jack?

skypuppy

If some old guy can do it then obviously it can't be very extreme. Otherwise he'd already be dead.
Bruce McConkey 'I thought we were gonna die, and I couldn't think of anyone

[wartload 0]

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5 significant figure accuracy (as in that table) is pretty stupid, since the atmosphere itself is not stable to 5 significant figures.

How do you expect anyone to take your claims to be an engineer seriously? Quit spelling words correctly!

[BlindBrick 0]

I jump with an ex-Green Beret who got passed over for the less experienced Kittenger because he was enlisted and at the last moment they decided they wanted an officer. Or at least that's his story.

-Jackmc

"If you end up in an alligator's jaws, naked, you probably did something to deserve it."

[SkydiveJack 1]

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I worked with him briefly on the TAME program and spoke to him on several occasions about the jump. I do not feel he made a false claim or tried to lie. I think the PR people of the Excelsior Project may have over stated the facts and Joe just got caught up in it.

http://records.fai.org/parachuting/current.asp?id1=201&id2=1&id3=14

Sparky

Yes but, the PR people of the Excelsior Project are long gone on to other things. I have seen Joe on at least two separate interviews claim that he went supersonic. I only heard this claim from him. I really don't think he got caught up in it, I think he created it. A legend in his own mind. It's still an awesome jump!!

[anu 0]

There are a number of interesting issues surrounding Kittinger's jump. The origin of the supersonic claim may well be that Kittinger has often quoted a figure of 714 mph, as opposed to 614 mph ( the actual value). At 90 000ft with ambient temp, pressure and air density ( all of which have second order if not first order contibutions towards determination of Mach 1) then 714 would be supersonic. Perhaps he has just believed the misquoted figure rather than the validated one. Also, he reported a choking sensation from his neck collar at about this time, suggesting there was a buildup of the transonic pressure wave that one would start to experience at Mach 0.95 or thereabouts. Apart from the drogue issue ( to solve the stability problem that caused him to black out on a previous jump from 74 000 ft due to a flat spin in 1959), the FAI require that an official FAI observer be present at landing for such a record attempt to qualify. Hence the OFFICIAL FAI record of 82 750 ft was set in 1962 as part of Project Volga in the Soviet Union by Yevgenny ('Eugene') Andreev. I myself don't think he went supersonic for the simple reason that the drogue ( which was an addition to the Beaupre Multi Stage Parachute rig he was testing) would almost certainly have been shredded during the transition from transonic to supersonic airflow.........The Colonel still remains an aviation legend, though!!

[MikePelkey 0]

There was supposed to have been a book written by Captain Kittenger about his 105,000' jump titled: "The Man Who Rode The Thunder". I have not been able to locate a copy of it however. If anyone knows about this book and where to obtain a copy, I'd sure appreciate the info. I believe I recall hearing about it sometime back in the 60's.

In theory, there is no difference bretween theory and practice. In practice, however, there is. -

"RIP Forever Brian Schubert. Always remembered, Never forgotten" - Leroy DB
http://www.johnny

[JohnRich 4]

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There was supposed to have been a book written by Captain Kittenger about his 105,000' jump titled: "The Man Who Rode The Thunder". I have not been able to locate a copy of it however. If anyone knows about this book and where to obtain a copy, I'd sure appreciate the info.

You're getting this book mixed up with Kittinger. "The Man Who Rode the Thunder" is about Marine Lt. Col. Rankin, who ejected from an F8U Crusader at 47,000 feet without a pressure suit, freefell for 7 miles, deployed his chute, and then spent 30 minutes tossed about inside a thunderstorm.

I have a copy of the book, but I ain't selling it...

[MikePelkey 0]

Ahah,

No wonder I had such a hard time locating it. Apparently I must have heard of Kittenger's jump and Rankin's at the same time and confused the two events. Thanks for clarifying it for me.

In theory, there is no difference bretween theory and practice. In practice, however, there is. -

"RIP Forever Brian Schubert. Always remembered, Never forgotten" - Leroy DB
http://www.johnny

[ripcord4 0]

The book written by Colonel Kittenger is "The Long, Lonely Leap" and extremely rare. The last time I looked on Amazon.com, a used copy was $600.

[JohnRich 4]

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The book written by Colonel Kittenger is "The Long, Lonely Leap" and extremely rare. The last time I looked on Amazon.com, a used copy was $600.

I didn't believe you. So I looked it up myself...

Dayum!

I guess I'm never going to have a copy of that one.

[ripcord4 0]

John....

Would I lie? I am just glad I already have a copy.

[skydiverek 63]

Xerox anyone ?

[wmw999 2,545]

Somebody go buy this one: http://dogbert.abebooks.com/abe/BookDetailsPL?bi=608299089

while it's still there.

Wendy W.

There is nothing more dangerous than breaking a basic safety rule and getting away with it. It removes fear of the consequences and builds false confidence. (tbrown)

[ripcord4 0]

That's great if you want a pile of loose pages instead of a bound book.

Description: Vol 1118, No 6, December, pp. 854- 873, Profusely Illus with Color Photos, disbound & removed f/orig vol, thus self-wrps, else VG.

[catfishhunter 2]

Somebody did since it isn't there now....

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