beaten to death topic :)

[Staso 0]

hi !
what people think is the right exit order for speed divers ?
i agree with the whole "slow fallers - first, fast fallers - last"
concept and don't wanna start this topic again. but how speed divers
fit in that picture ?
on my dropzone i'm the only one who does that kind stuff and i
usually go first. since next group is usually big RW group and
it takes some time to climb and set, at the time they open i'm
setting for the final. sometimes on windy days (we fly otter), i'm
already on the ground when i see them opening.
i like going out first and be sure that i'm not gonna hit anybody
at close to 300 mph speed. also if i lose my balance and zoom around,
i always have time to slow down and during that time i track and get
away from anybody. my track is pretty fast when i pull out from the
dive. since i have plenty of vertical speed, it gives me a lot of
horizontal and if i find myself when i shouldn't be, i can easily fix
it. in fact i have so much horizontal speed that it sometimes slows
me down to 45 mph.
the only one thing is that since next group is big and they need some
time to climb out, they trend to put me short :)
if i exit after all rw and ff and just before high openers, students and
tandems, i still should have plenty of horizontal separation since i'm
not affected by wind much, but if i'm not going straight down i think
i can catch up with previous group and that wouldn't be pretty. i know
that i should be aware of my heading but even small mistakes at high
speed would be magnified, so i'd rather eliminate that risk.
just wanna hear what people think and what is the usual practice for
this case.
thanks,
stan.

[billvon 3,151]

>but if i'm not going straight down i think
>i can catch up with previous group and that wouldn't be pretty.
I understand the concern, but it is a concern shared by all freeflyers. Novice freeflyers practicing head down can easily pass the RW group in front of them; yet we still ask them to exit afterwards because of the greater horizontal separation that affords. If a new freeflyer looks like he will be zoomy I remind them to not face one direction for the whole dive; turning occasionally tends to "cancel out" backslides and such.
Basically I think any procedure that works for regular freeflyers should work for you as well, and will actually afford you _more_ separation as the wind increases. If, due to your unusual amount of sliding, you can't control where you end up at opening time, a very long delay or a separate pass might be a good idea.
-bill von

[Staso 0]

that makes sence and i think i made a stress on it as well in my original post. i don't really have too much of the direction control after i pass certain speed. and any control input would kill the speed and as the result the very idea of this discipline.
funny, some time ago, very often i had cork-screw spin on my dives. as it turned out it was my wrist altimiter :)
stan.

[quade 4]

Topics are like brooms to a sorcerer's apprentice.
They can not actually be beaten to death.
quade
http://futurecam.com

[billvon 3,151]

>Topics are like brooms to a sorcerer's apprentice.
Not quite the most obscure reference I've seen here to date, but pretty close . . .
-bill von

[Michele 1]

Hi, guys.
So, I have a question. If a slow faller gets out right in front of me, a light, floaty kinda guy, who takes, oh, say 57 seconds in freefall, and is opening at the same atlitude I am, and I give him easily 8 seconds (a slow 8 count) before I leave the plane, and I am a not so slow floaty kinda faller and have a regular freefall rate that allows me about 47 seconds in freefall, he and I will be opening at about the same time...(this actually happened yesterday - I was last out of the plane, and ended up pulling before the other guy did. And no, I didn't go low on my pull alti...there was really good horizontal separation, but it still spooked me a bit to see a canopy above me when I was last out).
So why is it that slow fallers are out before the fast fallers?
Thanks, guys.
And that was not an obscure reference...at least to me.
Ciels and Pinks-
Michele
If you really want to, you can seize the day; if you really want to, you can fly away...
~enya~

[quade 4]

Michele --
Assume the uppers are 30 out of the north or 44 feet per second. Further, assume jump run is from south to north. Assume neither the fast faller or the slow faller tracks. Assume the second jumper gives a 10 second delay between exits.
If the belly flyer is out first and exposed to the wind for 10 more seconds than the fast faller, then at opening altitude, they should be about 440 feet farther away from each other than if they had been falling at the same rate.
If the fast faller is out first, then they'd be about 440 feet closer to each other than if they fell at the same rate.
Make sense?
Now, the real world isn't quite this perfect and there are a lot of little variables involved, but i think this should give you a basic idea of how it works.
quade
http://futurecam.com

[AndyMan 7]

Quote

So why is it that slow fallers are out before the fast fallers?

The short answer is the vertical separation is meaningless. One cuttaway, a snivel, a high or a low pull can redule vertical separation to zero.
So again - vertical separation is meaningless.
Horizontal separation is a lot harder to screw up.
_Am
ICQ: 5578907
MSN Messenger: andrewdmetcalfe at hotmail dot com
AIM: andrewdmetcalfe
Yahoo IM: ametcalf_1999

[Staso 0]

> and have a regular freefall rate that allows me about 47 seconds in freefall
wow ! 47 seconds is not regular freefall time. not at least from 13500.
i do speed dives and my freefall time is around 42-44 seconds. regular rw from 13500 should be at least 60 seconds. unless you pull high.
please dont's start "why is it that slow fallers are out before the fast fallers?" it's discussed here in "exit order" topic -
http://www.dropzone.com/cgi-bin/forums/showflat.pl?Cat=&Board=forumsafetytraining&Number=154335&page=0&view=collapsed&sb=5&o=0&part=
i was curious how speed divers fit into the exit order.
stan.

[Michele 1]

Quote

if i exit after all rw and ff and just before high openers, students and
tandems, i still should have plenty of horizontal separation since i'm
not affected by wind much, but if i'm not going straight down i think
i can catch up with previous group and that wouldn't be pretty.

Since your comment (above) is what triggered my question and that is exactly where I leave in the exit order, I asked a question about slow v. fast falling. I saw two people who I hold great respect for, and thought hey, maybe they understand and can explain to me what the thought process is.
Begging your pardon, Staso. Sorry if I am repeating a topic which possibly had been, um, beaten to death. However, I had read that thread, and didn't understand it, and still am not sure about the answer.
Ya know, I am getting the feeling my questions are not acceptable. Possibly because I am new or something. Next time, I shall make sure not to sully your thread with a question. Actually, next time, I shall think twice or perhaps three times before asking anything from anyone.
As for my "regular" freefall time, I average about 135-140 on my belly, and I pull at 4.5 after leaving at 12,5.
Have great jumps, Staso.
If you really want to, you can seize the day; if you really want to, you can fly away...
~enya~

[AndyMan 7]

Quote

Ya know, I am getting the feeling my questions are not acceptable

Your questions are perfectly acceptable. That's why this group is here. If you're not understanding, we must not be explaining properly.
Why don't you take a look at Kallend's webpage here: http://www.iit.edu/~kallend/skydive/#resources
Wander through the powerpoint presentation.... read the charts. If you're real adventurous, download and play with his freefall simulations. Maybe that will help...
_Am
ICQ: 5578907
MSN Messenger: andrewdmetcalfe at hotmail dot com
AIM: andrewdmetcalfe
Yahoo IM: ametcalf_1999

[Staso 0]

Michelle,
I'm in no way tried to insult you or do something of that kind. If
I did, I apologize, I didn't mean to.
The exit order topis was literally "beaten to death" and I really
didn't want to start it again, especailly since it's discussed in the forum right next to this thread, I just tried to bring one
small aspect of it, taking that "slow fallers first" concept is
given.
Sorry again,
Stan.

[billvon 3,151]

>So why is it that slow fallers are out before the fast fallers?
Because it helps with their horizontal separation. Vertical separation does not work, as has been mentioned above, and in many cases doesn't matter much. Heck, the Otter passes students on their way down, but since there is plenty of horizontal separation, it's not a big issue.
If you get out after that slow faller, and jump run is normal (into the wind) you will find yourself opening at the same altitude and time, perhaps, but well away from him horizontally. If you reverse the order you will open well before him, but your horizontal separation will be lower - and you are at greater risk for collision.
-bill von

[kallend 2,194]

<<>>
Andy - you make an excellent agent. Unfortunately I don't pay any commission.

[billvon 3,151]

>Ya know, I am getting the feeling my questions are not acceptable. Possibly
> because I am new or something. Next time, I shall make sure not to sully your
> thread with a question. Actually, next time, I shall think twice or perhaps three
> times before asking anything from anyone.
Michele, your questions are completely acceptable _especially_ if you're somewhat new. However, often you're going to get redirected to a thread in progress. For example, if you ask "Should I land a canopy with a broken brake line?" we could recreate the 50 posts in the "broken steering line" thread, but more likely someone will just post a link to that thread. That doesn't mean the question's not acceptable, just that it is being answered somewhere else.
-bill von