tooueay 0 #26 June 27, 2002 GPS is a great way to spot and reading the manuals obviously helps. It would also help if there was GPS installed in every jump aircraft. Sadly, that is not the case where I fly so I will continue to spot with my own eyes.Give me ambiguity...or something else. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
kallend 2,150 #27 June 27, 2002 QuoteSpotting. GPS's break, and have resulted in some spectacularly bad spots. In one famous case, ATC helped spot a load of jumpers, and they all exited over clouds. They emerged from the clouds to find themselves over Lake Michigan. Several drowned. I don't recall that incident having anything to do with GPS, and I believe it was Lake Erie.... The only sure way to survive a canopy collision is not to have one. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
billvon 3,120 #28 June 27, 2002 >Well, that means that russian instructors and DZO's with thousands > of jumps are stupid . . .. I suspect that like anywhere else, some of them are smart and some are stupid. >because jumps through the clouds ARE permitted there, right ? It depends on the airspace structure. If there is no uncontrolled flight allowed, and the aircraft (and other aircraft in the area) remain under positive control, then you can exit over clouds with minimal risk of running into someone else. In the US, however, uncontrolled flight _is_ allowed, so we have different issues. >May be pilots should really read the GPS manuals, because a GPS is > a VERY exact thing. Really? I remember one GPS-spotted jump in Eloy where we opened eight miles from the DZ, and another where the GPS insisted that the landing area (which we could see from the door) was 500 miles away. Fortunately, on that one, we disregarded it. They usually work well, but when they fail, they fail big. >I would trust any GPS over ANY person's eyes, given that the pilot > knows how to operate it. GPSes cannot see mountains or other aircraft. They can't tell cloud clearances. Much of spotting in the US is making sure you don't hit anything else, above and beyond putting yourself in the right spot. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
quade 4 #29 June 27, 2002 Vlad -- The various levels of danger associated with jumping through clouds changes depending on where you are on the planet. Here in the U.S. the danger is a bit more than in Russia because of all of the privately owned aircraft that can fly around without talking to air traffic control. There are other issues regarding the accuracy of the GPS spot. By the way, you're welcome to use this navigational aid at U.S. tax payer expense, we don't mind. may tell you precisely where you are over the surface of the planet, but the way it's hooked up on most aircraft it can't tell you the winds aloft. Unless the pilot has taken them into careful consideration, it's still possible to "spot" the load a couple of kilometers off. None of this addresses the break-off and deployment issues regarding cloud jumping. Yes, jumping through clouds can be done just about as safely as jumping in completely clear weather, but more has to be taken into consideration than simply being over the landing area or if aircraft are in the immediate vicinity.quade - The World's Most Boring Skydiver Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
kallend 2,150 #30 June 27, 2002 QuoteVlad -- Yes, jumping through clouds can be done just about as safely as jumping in completely clear weather, but more has to be taken into consideration than simply being over the landing area or if aircraft are in the immediate vicinity. Maybe 2 cloud jumps should be required for a "D" license - since this is essentially the argument made in favor of night jumps. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
quade 4 #31 June 27, 2002 Cute, but they're two completely different issues. Besides, I doubt the USPA could convince the FAA to change the FARs to accomodate this. No BFD. quade - The World's Most Boring Skydiver Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
indyz 1 #32 June 27, 2002 QuoteWell, that means that russian instructors and DZO's with thousands of jumps are stupid, because jumps through the clouds ARE permitted there, right ? May be pilots should really read the GPS manuals, because a GPS is a VERY exact thing. I would trust any GPS over ANY person's eyes, given that the pilot knows how to operate it. In only 31 jumps, I've been on at least two loads where the guy looking at the GPS was yelling, "Go! Go!," and the guy with his head out the door was yelling, "No! No!" The load took the visual spot over the GPS spot and I, one of the last jumpers out, made the landing area both times. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
