Revised requirements for the D

[kallend 2,124]

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If your going to be called a MASTER you ought to be able to master it. Night jumps are a good thing to require.

It's not called "MASTER" any more. How long since you read the SIM? It's just a "D" license now.
I can think of no other license (drivers, pilots, scuba) where the license requirements are so divorced from the privileges bestowed as the night requirement for the "D". It is an anachronism.

[drenaline 0]

Am an A and I thing that night jumps are very important but they should be able to be waivered in some situations (some countries do not allow night jumps and on other countries the airport closes to early) and who knows maybe add that comment in his D license (NJ/W = night jump waivered).
For the CRW well gotta tell you people don't be selfish, some coutries don't have CRW coaches, and what should we do? fly to the US and spend a whole lot of money on motel 6, food and transportation?
About the HP canopy, well gotta tell you I know of people that are scared of them and have no intentions on making a jump with a HP, just because they don't wanna feel the rush of doing it, they like theyr slow canopy ride and don't want to raise theyr chances to brake a bone.
For me the D license is a person that can controll his freefall (move, dock, roll, turn) with no trouble at all; he can land any canopy near the target center (he has developed the canopy speed and dive judgment, something us newbie need to learn so we can land near the spot); can do any RW sequence without a problem, can jump with others without a problem, can make good spots and he knows his SIM word by word or at least he knows it but just has to give a quick look to remember it.
Let the CRW and HP for specialties, don't mix it with the normal licenses. Some people just don't like those things.
"Life is full of danger, so why be afraid?"
drenaline

[WmLauterbach 0]

I stand corrected... I thought you could compete in all competitions with a "C".............
I reckon not....

[indyz 1]

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I recently read about someone who has a medical condition making it difficult for them to see at night. They can't get their D license because of that one issue, even though in all other regards they are qualified.

I'm assuming that you are referring to the letter in this months Parachutist. This person doesn't have any medical condition, he just doesn't want to do the night jumps and feels that he should be given a restricted license because of it. To me, this just doesn't make sense. If he was night blind I would wholeheartedly support him getting a -R. However, this person is perfectly capable of meeting the requirements, so if he wants the D he should just suck it up and do the night jumps.
--
Brian

[diverdriver 7]

Is there any other class? LOL.....thanks for the clarification. I've only competed in the open class so you know what that means I've done.......assumed.
Chris

[kallend 2,124]

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Ever get on the sunset load? Ever been on a load that had to hold/circle at whatever altitude for a few minutes because
of traffic/ATC? I can easily see a situation where a "sunset load" can turn into damn near a night jump - I've been on
some. That is why we need the night jump requirement...

Then following your logic, only "D" license holders should be allowed to make sunset loads.
The fact is, anyone can make a sunset load, even a pre-A newbie doing a solo.
I repeat a question that no-one has answered so far: what privileges of the "D" license REQUIRE expertise in night jumping? (and I point out that (a) making 2 night jumps doesn't make one an expert, (2) it is a LICENSE, not an award, and (3) the title "master" is no longer attached to the D license).

[diverdriver 7]

Theoretically you would need to be able to make these night jumps so you could teach how to make night jumps to someone else. Not sure on the requirement of who has to do a briefing before making night jumps. Is it an Instructor only? Or JM?
Chris

[kallend 2,124]

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Theoretically you would need to be able to make these night jumps so you could teach how to make night
jumps to someone else. Not sure on the requirement of who has to do a briefing before making night jumps.
Is it an Instructor only? Or JM?

From the SIM:
"1. Night, water and demonstration jumps are to be performed
only with the advice of the local USPA S&TA,
Instructor Examiner or Regional Director. [NW]"
A "D" license doesn't bestow privilege of giving the briefing for a night jump. That privilege comes with a more advanced rating or BOD membership.

[diverdriver 7]

So you're saying the D-License is pretty impotent then? Yah..I agree.
Chris

[billvon 3,090]

>Then following your logic, only "D" license holders should be allowed to make
>sunset loads.
We sometimes do that - if we think a load may exit after sunset, we are picky as to who goes.
>The fact is, anyone can make a sunset load, even a pre-A newbie doing a solo.
I have ridden the plane down with just those people as a result of a "sunset load" that got delayed.
>I repeat a question that no-one has answered so far: what privileges of the "D"
> license REQUIRE expertise in night jumping?
The same privileges that require water training, flat-turn training, front riser dives, packing and spotting ability, and the ability to do a half-style series i.e. none of them. However, all of those, I think, add to the odds that you will survive any given jump, and I support their inclusion as requirements in the license structure.
-bill von

[diverdriver 7]

Here's an arguement FOR the requirements (going along the lines of Billvon's comments). The commercial pilot's license tests you to do Lazy Eights and Chandelles, Eight on pylons and Eights around pilons. Now....I don't remember the last time I had to perform a Chandelle in normal flying to the maximum extent that the manuever requires. But, they teach stick and rudder and planning skills that can be applied in your everday flying. So...even though I think we can safely axe the night requirement for the D-License...there are many GOOD arguements for keeping it when we compare it to aircraft training and licenses. The planning of a night jump and then performing means you have reached a certain level of proficiency (or can be seen as maturity) as a skydiver.
My personal feeling is that the requirements of a D-License should be changed to 500 jumps AND 3 years in the sport. I think it would have some substance behind it again. I think the night jumps requirement could be dropped. We could then make that requirement valid in order to become an S&TA, IE, or Regional Director since they are the ones that can conduct a night jump briefing.
Chris Schindler
ATP (means something)
D-19012 (gives an idea of how long I've had it)
www.DiverDriver.com (shows how I want to make a difference)

[kallend 2,124]

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Here's an arguement FOR the requirements (going along the lines of Billvon's comments). The commercial pilot's license
tests you to do Lazy Eights and Chandelles, Eight on pylons and Eights around pilons. Now....I don't remember the last
time I had to perform a Chandelle in normal flying to the maximum extent that the manuever requires. But, they teach
stick and rudder and planning skills that can be applied in your everday flying. So...even though I think we can safely
axe the night requirement for the D-License...there are many GOOD arguements for keeping it when we compare it to
aircraft training and licenses. The planning of a night jump and then performing means you have reached a certain level
of proficiency (or can be seen as maturity) as a skydiver.

But the original question related to substituting something else (advanced canopy training or CRW) that needs just as much planning/proficiency/maturity as a night jump, and is far more relevant to the crowded skies above the DZ.
Most of the arguments I've seen in favor of night jumps as a requirement can be summarized as "'cos that's how we did it"

[Jimbo 0]

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Am an A and I thing that night jumps are very important

Why? As the Professor already mentioned, nobody should ever find themselves doing an accidental night jump.

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For the CRW well gotta tell you people don't be selfish, some coutries don't have CRW coaches, and what should we do? fly to the US and spend a whole lot of money on motel 6, food and transportation?

Let's get something straight here, the idea of making a few CReW jumps a requirement for an advanced license isn't about ego, it's about keeping skydivers alive. It isn't about training someone to become a national CReW champion, it's about giving them basic, but live, training about what to do when they bump into another canopy, or worse. Unlike the accidental night jump this is a very real scenario. You don't need a competition level coach to get this type of training.

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About the HP canopy, well gotta tell you I know of people that are scared of them and have no intentions on making a jump with a HP, just because they don't wanna feel the rush of doing it, they like theyr slow canopy ride and don't want to raise theyr chances to brake a bone.

I think maybe you misunderstood the point. The idea is not to take recent C license holders and put them under a Crossfire @1.8 and teach them to hook it hard. Again, this is basic canopy training meant to save lives. The reality of the situation is that more and more people are killed under perfectly functioning parachutes because they don't fully understand what they're doing. Basic HP canopy training would, in my mind, be a short class in canopy flight with that knowledge applied in the field under the supervision of a qualified instructor. It's nice to know how to really get the most out of a canopy, and it's important to know when it could save your life or kill you.

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For me the D license is a person that can controll his freefall (move, dock, roll, turn) with no trouble at all; he can land any canopy near the target center (he has developed the canopy speed and dive judgment, something us newbie need to learn so we can land near the spot); can do any RW sequence without a problem, can jump with others without a problem, can make good spots and he knows his SIM word by word or at least he knows it but just has to give a quick look to remember it.

What exactly is the point of memorizing the SIM? Memorizing the suggested action for dealing with 2 out, or a canopy wrap or collision won't do you much good unless you've practiced it in the field. Memorizing high-performance canopy moves could get you killed, but a bit of instruction could save your life. Book smarts will only get you so far in this sport, experience will keep you alive.

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Let the CRW and HP for specialties, don't mix it with the normal licenses. Some people just don't like those things.

If people don't feel comfortable with these things then maybe they should consider why they're involved in this sport. Remember, you can do everything right and still die.
Finally....

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Most of the arguments I've seen in favor of night jumps as a requirement can be summarized as "'cos that's how we did it"

Quite possibly the worst reason to do _anything_.
-
Jim

[hobbes4star 0]

>Ever get on the sunset load? Ever been on a load that had to hold/circle at whatever altitude for a few minutes because of traffic/ATC?<
yes i have been on these loads before. but also i don't mind jumping at night, in fact i enjoy jumping at night. but if i did not like jumping at night. the sunset load is one load i would pass on. anyone one who has spent enough time around a dz knows that the sunset load can get into night time. if it is something that they really don't want to do then i would imagine that they would pass on the sunset load. i belive that you could get through your jumping career without doing a night jump if you really really didn't want to do one.
"great achievement comes only at great risk" the Dalai Lama

[billvon 3,090]

>>Am an A and I thing that night jumps are very important
>Why? As the Professor already mentioned, nobody should ever find themselves doing an accidental night jump.
Right, and no one should ever find themselves doing an accidental toggle hook at 50 feet. Yet every year people die doing that. It is not what people should do; it is what people have been shown _to_ do, whether intentional or not. If you jump a lot, and simply get on any open load without consideration to time of day, you will eventually find yourself jumping after sunset. Can that be prevented? Sure. Is it, generally, prevented, or even seriously considered before it happens? No. Given that, there is some merit to teaching night jumps from a safety, rather than a "this-is-what-experts-do" perspective.
-bill von

[billvon 3,090]

>Am an A and I thing that night jumps are very important but they should be able to be waivered in some situations . . .
Agreed; if you don't feel safe doing them, you can get a restricted license. That's true for many of the requirements out there.
>For the CRW well gotta tell you people don't be selfish, some coutries don't have CRW coaches, and what should we do?
Find one; not having an RW coach is no excuse to not learn RW. CRW training can save your life.
> About the HP canopy, well gotta tell you I know of people that are scared of them and have no
>intentions on making a jump with a HP, just because they don't wanna feel the rush of doing it,
>they like theyr slow canopy ride and don't want to raise theyr chances to brake a bone.
These people, in my opinion, are exactly the kind of people who will injure or kill themselves if they ever get cut off under canopy. Why? Because on every jump they are afraid of breaking a bone. They land straight in. They don't know how to do anything else because they've never _done_ anything else. Then, some day, they get cut off. They turn the only way they know how - they pull down one toggle all the way, and they hit the ground at 30mph. I almost lost two friends to this exact scenario.
If they had some training on how to turn low, they might just know how to save their lives if they ever have to turn low. This is worth teaching, even if you have no intention of ever hook turning.
>For me the D license is a person that can . . .
>and he knows his SIM word by word or at least he knows it but just has to give a quick look to remember it.
Do you really think that it's important to know the requirements for a skydive from 40,000 feet, but not important to learn to control your canopy near the ground?
>do any RW sequence without a problem,
Why do you feel skydiving should be RW-centric? Why should we require expert RW skills but not even basic CRW skills, considering that CRW skill can save your life if you have a cypres firing one day?
> Let the CRW and HP for specialties, don't mix it with the normal licenses. Some people just don't like those things.
And some people just don't like RW. That doesn't mean there should be no RW requirements in the license structure.
-bill von

[gale 0]

This discussion got me thinking about the Canadian D lisence (expert) so I looked it up and interestingly enough we no longer have to do night or water jumps. This is what you must have here:
- CSPA membership and a C lisence.
- 500 freefall jumps
- 180 minutes of logged freefall time
- 10 consecutive pre-planned self-guided canopy standup landings to within 5 metres of the target
- complete two of the following:

- score a minimum of 7 points within 35 seconds from exit on five 4-way RW jumps with a min. of 5 different current FAI formations per jump OR score a min. of 7 points within 50 from exit on five 8-way RW jumps with a min. of 5 different current FAI formations per jump
- style series in less then 11.5 seconds
- score of less than 5cm on an electronic scoring pad on 10 precision accuracy jumps
- 2-way freefly with interactive camera consisting of exit move, spock, monkeyflip, spock, eagle, transition, dock, transition, dock, end move in 40 seconds or less - judged by air - to - air video
- 5 CRW 4-way jumps with 8 rotations within 2 minutes from the contact of the 4th inor to a max. of 2 minutes 30 sec from the time of exit
-competed at a regional, provincial, or national compition in at least one discipline
-80% on a written exam
Privileges: participate in a CSPA course conductor seminar after 1000 jumps have been accumulated.
Not to muddy the waters of your discussion further I just thought you might like to know how it's being done over here. It seems to have something for everyone, although no HP canopy requirements.
PS: the C is done in a similar fashon. The A and B are not.
Isn't life the strangest thing you've ever seen?

[drenaline 0]

>Because on every jump they are afraid of breaking a bone.
I think I said "don't want to RAISE theyr chance..." everybody knows you can break a bone, that is the risk we take when we jump (many situations can make you break a bone).
>If they had some training on how to turn low, they might just know how to save their lives if they ever have to turn low. This is worth teaching, even if you have no intention of ever hook turning.
You are 100% right, teach that to the newbies, it should be included in the A license progretion, don't leave it for after a 200 jumps thing. A person that has 200+ jumps usually knows what to do (of course in every rule there is an exception). How many jumps had your 2 friends?
>Do you really think that it's important to know the requirements for a skydive from 40,000 feet, but not important to learn to control your canopy near the ground?
A D license is a person that is educated in the sport and that means he knows all the requirements, and he represents the USPA as an educated skydiver.
>Why do you feel skydiving should be RW-centric? Why should we require expert RW skills but not even basic CRW skills, considering that CRW skill can save your life if you have a cypres firing one day?
>And some people just don't like RW.
dunno how wrong am gonna be with this but here it goes: Everything involves belly in freefall (sooner or later you have to be on your belly and you must know how to control it), not everything involves CReW, HP or freefly etc.
Two canopies out is an emergency, how to handle it? read the SIM.
About the HP people getting injured and on worst cases getting biff and dying, well read the posts, some people that doesn't even have 200 jumps are already doing it, before jumping a HP you should ask yourself this: you wanna jump a HP? ok, do you have the skill for it? do you have the teachings for it? do you know how to controll a normal canopy with normal wingload? No? then don't do it, get coaching if you want to do it, like I said a specialty.
What I do think is that the SIM must have more info on canopy control, there is nothing about HP (if am wrong please do tell me, cause I must of missed it).
People should use good judgment before doing something new. People should learn not to push theyr limits to the max, cause that will kill them.
>CRW training can save your life.
How? please do tell me, I wanna learn.
Just in case: Am not flaming, if something sounds harsh or bad or anything like that please don't take it bad, I just wanted to explain why I said that and give my opinion about the subject. We are all friends right? "Life is full of danger, so why be afraid?"
drenaline

[indyz 1]

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Two canopies out is an emergency, how to handle it? read the SIM.

I read about how to control a skid on icy roads on Driver's Education. I got an A in the class. 4 months later I put my car in the ditch driving in a snow storm. I had never experienced an actual skid before. After the next big snow I went to an empty parking lot and spent a half hour spinning the car out and practicing. The next time I started to skid on an icy road, I straightened it out and kept going. There is a fundamental difference between knowing the concept and having done something similar before. A 2-stack might not be a perfect simulation of a two-out situation, and a snowy parking lot at 15 mph certainly isn't the same as a highway at 45 mph, but it still made a difference when I skidded a second time.
I also think that everybody has been perfectly clear in explaining that HP training does not mean hook turning a swoop machine. It is about learning how to fly your canopy to the max, whether it is an old Manta or a VX 49. It could save your life (or at least a few broken bones) some day when you have to make a low turn to avoid another canopy or you have a brake line snap during your flare.
--
Brian

[kallend 2,124]

<<doing that. It is not what people should do; it is what people have been shown _to_ do, whether intentional or not>>>
Compare the numbers of accidental hook turn deaths to accidental after sunset load deaths over the last, say, 5 years. Then tell me why a night jump is required for safety and advanced canopy training isn't.

[drenaline 0]

>A 2-stack might not be a perfect simulation of a two-out situation
Never done that, can't say if its true or wrong. Remember that a two out situation is not only 2 canopies on top of your head, you can also get a biplane, your main over the reserve, the reserve over the main, the side by side and entanglement without the option of releasing. A two out is an emergency that can happen or can't, you can have a lifetime of jumping without getting one (I just made a poll on talkback to see how true that is). I think (but thats just my ignorant way of thinking, maybe billvon, quade or other pro can enlight me with more input) that the only good way to practice and really know about that, is jumping with a intentional cutaway rig and having it happen to see how you will react (people react different to stressfull situation, i.e. people going for the pin instead of cuting it and opening the reserve)
>some day when you have to make a low turn to avoid another canopy or you have a brake line snap during your flare.
Thats why I said that the canopy control should be in the A license progression and the SIM must have a bit more of detailed ways of canopy turns. A good example of what must be add is the different ways of turn and when they should be used, read the last post of How to flare thats a good example of what must be add in the SIM. About the line snapping I think its thanks to careless people who don't check theyr equipment, and not just riggers fault (they are humans they can miss something), everybody must learn how to check his/hers equipment, lines, sewing, cloth everything.
The truth is (and can ask the instructors to see if am wrong) that the A license does not cover to much of canopy control.
Just in case: Am not flaming, if it sounds like that is because I have some trouble with the english and can only use the words I know and the one's that are on the dictionary.
"Life is full of danger, so why be afraid?"
drenaline

[PhreeZone 20]

The A licence is only a passport to skydiving. All the licence does is say that you know just enough to keep you from killing your self to easly. An A licence jumper should not be jumping near water with out water training, and they need the lands during the day time to make a night landing. Most jumpers at some point find themselfs under canopy. (If not they have big problems) Might as well require the jumper to demonstrate skills during the most important part of the skydive. Freefall is bonus play time. Canopy time is what saves your life every jump. A simple 2 stack at the C licence level allows the jumper to slowly be learning new things with out being over burdend with information overload. There is a reason the FJC does'nt teach night jumps... at that point the jumper should never be faced with that situation. A double out can happen at any time and a wrap is highy possible on any jump. I about got wraped a few weeks ago due to poor tracking fomr another jumper. I've had Crew training and love sneaking up on people and flying beside them so i know my canopy range and what to do... do you know what to do in a wrap?
Drop the tube...DROP the tube...

[drenaline 0]

>do you know what to do in a wrap?
If wrap is when one skydivers body gets wraped by the main of another then the answer is: communication with the lower jumper, lower jumper cuts away, the top jumper can now unwrap himself.
"Life is full of danger, so why be afraid?"
drenaline

[skybytch 273]

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About the line snapping I think its thanks to careless people who don't check theyr equipment

Really? I inspect my gear often and carefully and had two lines snap on a hard opening not long ago.
pull & flare,
lisa
"Try not. Do or do not. There is no try." - Yoda sez

[billvon 3,090]

>Then tell me why a night jump is required for safety and advanced canopy
> training isn't.
It now is required to some degree via the ISP. As I've said before, I think it should be pushed more than it is.
And before you claim that a low number of night-jump (or twilight) jump related fatalities means we should do away with the requirement, might it be possible that the reason we don't _have_ many of those fatalities is that we train for such jumps?
-bill von