New jumper wing loading

[cloud9 0]

Ok here's the deal I was talking with a new jumper at my DZ. He has 20 jumps and is thinking about buying his own gear. He weighs in at 185 lbs. without gear. He wants to buy a 150 sq.ft. canopy. Now I already gave him my opinion of this and asked him to come to this site and check out what some other folks had to say. I'm not going to post what I told him because I don't want him to think I influenced anybody else's post. So please post your thoughts on this purchase, and wing loading. Also please be tactful this is a learning experience and he has been given different advise from several different jumpers, so don't flame. I hope he see's this and uses the information wisely. Thanks for your thoughts.

[rgoper 0]

at 185# witout gear, and 210# with gear he'd be at a 1.4:1 wing, bad decision. he needs to fly 1.0:1 no higher until he gets some jumps in. better safe than sorry, and if he jumps the 1.4:1 he will be sorry, if he makes it. tell him to do the right thing.

--Richard--
"We Will Not Be Shaken By Thugs, And Terroist"

[CanuckInUSA 0]

I know someone from my DZ who is just off of student status and is talking the same way. I mentioned this to one of the AFF Instructors (that maybe someone should talk to him) and the AFF Instructor's response was "you can talk to them all you want, but some of them just aren't going to listen".

Try not to worry about the things you have no control over

[drenaline 0]

Like Richard said, wingload of 1.4 is not good for beginner, the speed change from the student rig to the 150 will be so big that he might misjudge almost all his landings and might get seriously injured.

Happened to me changed from a wingload of 0.8 to 1.2 and biffed my first 10 landings, its not that fun, I started to hate the canopy instead of liking it.

Also check out with the DZO he might ground him everytime he picks up that rig.

HISPA 21
www.panamafreefall.com

[rgoper 0]

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the AFF Instructor's response was "you can talk to them all you want, but some of them just aren't going to listen".

at that point and time, take it up either with the S&TA, or the DZO, more often than not, they will not allow such a low time jumper to become a "potential statistic" on their drop zone. "It's All About Living"

--Richard--
"We Will Not Be Shaken By Thugs, And Terroist"

[CanuckInUSA 0]

Well the dude is now off student status and interacting with the coaches. So if he talks to them about his desired equipment purchase, hopefully they will straighten him out. I personally am not going to worry too much about him and worry more about myself because he's one of those young "I'm invincible" types. I know my first canopy I own will have a wing loading in the 1.0 to 1.05 range.

Try not to worry about the things you have no control over

[quade 4]

A lot of folks seem to think that the most dangerous time in a skydive is when you deploy or have a malfunction.

I think the most dangerous time during a skydive is when you make contact with the ground.

Certainly, if you don't deploy, you'll contact the ground at a very high rate of speed and you'll die very shortly thereafter. However, just because you have a canopy over your head from a good deployment, doesn't mean you're in any less danger.

Unfortunately, skydivers die under perfectly functioning canopies every year. As a matter of fact, it's the number 1 condition by which skydivers die. Not from malfunctions -- from bad landings under perfectly good canopies.

If you are a low-time skydiver and just for the sake of argument let's assume that's anyone with fewer than 200 jumps, you probably need to be fairly conservative in your choice of canopies. I'm not saying that with excellent instruction and coaching that you couldn't fly any particular wing-loading or sized canopy, but without expert instruction in canopy control, you're probably dooming yourself to failure, broken bones or possibly worse by selecting too small a canopy before you've gained enough experience to handle it.

What you might want to do is actually go by the manufacturer's recommendations on canopy sizes! I know, that's a wacky idea, but it'll probably save you a lot of sprains and broken bones.

HERE are the typical recommedations from one canopy manufacturer for a very popular canopy that is soft opening, fairly easy to fly and a damn good overall canopy for a variety of things. A person could buy something like this for his first canopy and spend a lot of time jumping it and exploring it's full range before wanting to downsize. When the time comes that the student think he has fully explored the full range of this canopy -- it even swoops.

quade -
The World's Most Boring Skydiver

[rgoper 0]

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I personally am not going to worry too much about him and worry more about myself

please rethink your position in this matter. no matter what this sky diver is going to do, whether it is at your home dz, or not, we ALL should care about him, because he is "one of the family" it's attitudes like the above stated that are literally helping to raise the statistical incident levels. if we don't police ourselves, be rest assured someone, someday will do it for us, let's stay self regulated by helping each other make good decisions and stay safe.

--Richard--
"We Will Not Be Shaken By Thugs, And Terroist"

[CanuckInUSA 0]

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***
please rethink your position in this matter. no matter what this sky diver is going to do, whether it is at your home dz, or not, we ALL should care about him, because he is "one of the family" it's attitudes like the above stated that are literally helping to raise the statistical incident levels. if we don't police ourselves, be rest assured someone, someday will do it for us, let's stay self regulated by helping each other make good decisions and stay safe.

I understand you point and maybe what I should do is chat with the DZO.

Try not to worry about the things you have no control over

[Deuce 1]

I'm at the same weight. At about 40 jumps I got my own Spectre 170. Beutiful brand new Wings container that I scrubbed the first three times I jumped it. Man, I was HAULING when I touched down, and having switched from f111 to my first ZP, I didn't understand how you had to FLY the landing.

Another guy, younger, but about the same weight, just got a SabreII (I think it's the hottest thing going) he's at about 70 jumps, and he is over his head landing that thing. It's fast.

Don't do it. Go at least 1:1, and keep it for a year or 200 jumps. He won't be able to enjoy freefall if he knows he's going to be flying behind the canopy as soon as it opens.

[FliegendeWolf 0]

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What you might want to do is actually go by the manufacturer's recommendations on canopy sizes! I know, that's a wacky idea, but it'll probably save you a lot of sprains and broken bones.

Quade,
Would you consider the manufacturer recommended wingloadings to be conservative estimates? Obviously, not all 135 pound novices will be equal, but will their recommended 150 sq. ft. Spectre suit most of these divers on the safe side?
Steve

A One that Isn't Cold is Scarcely a One at All

[quade 4]

Remember that the manufacturer's recommendations take into account the EXIT WEIGHT of the skydiver.

So, for the SP-150 canopy the skydiver AND ALL HIS GEAR jumping out the door 135 is the maximum they recommend for a novice.

That's actually a wingloading of 0.9:1. Yes, this might be considered a bit conservative by some, but certainly not out of line, and this is the important part, it's what is recommended by the people that know the most about that particular product -- the manufacturer.

quade -
The World's Most Boring Skydiver

[petur 0]

Two quotes I think I got from earlier postings in the very same forum:

"Remember some are destined to exist simply to serve as a warning to others."

"It Hurts to Admit When You Make Mistakes - But When They're Big Enough, the Pain Only Lasts a Second."

I've never been as surprised like when I heard that a jumper I know found a DZ in the U.S. where he was allowed to skysurf with only 70 jumps under his belt. He's the typical guy that falls into the category best described with the first quote above. He listened to us but decided that all our suggestions and warnings did not apply to him "because he knows what he's capable of doing".

I bet he's also capable of causing us (his friends) great sorrow one day...

[cloud9 0]

Thanks for the feedback, hopefully he'll read some of these and take them into consideration. He does not have a death wish or think he's invinceable. He wants to have fun and several very experienced jumpers ( over 2000 jumps) have told him he would probably be ok if he just flew it conservativly for a while. I told him it was a very bad idea, but then I only have a little over 200 jumps so who do you think he's going to listen to? Anyway maybe some of this will help.

[Deuce 1]

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He wants to have fun and several very experienced jumpers ( over 2000 jumps) have told him he would probably be ok if he just flew it conservativly for a while.

Oh my God. You can't fly it conservatively when you've got a bad spot, the winds came up in a different direction at high speed and you've set up for a downwind, you realize it at the last moment and you make your last toggle turn ever. You're visiting a new DZ and you realize there's a barbed wire fence in your path.

What about when you get cut off on final? What about when that crw formation shows up out of nowhere when you thought you had the pattern to yourself?

About the time my Spectre 170 seems stodgy, something like the above happens and I'm real glad I'm not pushing my abilities with 9 cell 135.

[Shark 0]

At 20 jumps he should stay lower than 1:1. If you are concerned, have him read the fatality and incident reports. If he persists, you can read about him.

[rendezvous 0]

I would be very interested in knowing the reasoning that these experienced jumpers are giving when they think it's ok for a guy to fly a 1.4 wing loading with just 20 jumps under his belt. What exactly do they mean by flying it conservativly. By who's standard.

[Albatross 0]

He is an accident waiting to hapen. It is like giving a 16 year old a brand new Porche. He will be able to land unders cerain conditions and that will make him bold. Everyone I know who was flying a canopy over 1.0 with under 200 jumps broke themselves somehow. JUST DON"T DO IT. Buy a Square canopy at ~ 1.0:1 and learn to fly the shit out of it. Then uses the front risers then do riser crves then do every conceivable landing, THEN THINK about trying to down size to 1.2:1. No one even died because their canopy was too slow.

Chris

[wlie 0]

So I got my A license, the senior jumpers at my DZ have been diligently working with me to downsize. So I bought my own gear after jump 80++. Thought I'd be ok jumping my own Diablo 170 since I've been jumping a Silhouette 170. Same wingloading right? What do you know. 6th ride on my gear, I over reacted on final. Sprained my ankle real good. And that was over 40 jumps or 3 months ago and it's still pretty tender.

Lessons learned:
Don't hurry to downsize
You can't hurry experience
Listen because these are the people who care about you

[wlie 0]

Oh! One more thing that I've learned from Mike Ortiz when I attended his freefly camp. Nothing to do with choosing a canopy, but it still applies anyway:

Safety, Progression, and Fun
- You won't progress if you're not safe
- You won't have fun if you're not safe
- You'll progress and have fun if you're safe

In a nutshell, it's not fun anymore when you hurt yourself, and you can't progress when you're hurt.

[rgoper 0]

if he indeed persists in his quest, have him write in advance, his own epitaph, it's the least he could do for the loved ones he'll leave behind. remember: "Safety Is No Accident" i tell all the new jumpers, if you don't think it's safe...don't do it.

--Richard--
"We Will Not Be Shaken By Thugs, And Terroist"

[quade 4]

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i tell all the new jumpers, if you don't think it's safe...don't do it.

Funny thing is, it's NOT safe no matter how you look at it.

I tell people almost the opposite.

If at any point you think skydiving is safe, maybe you should rethink your position.

quade -
The World's Most Boring Skydiver

[rgoper 0]

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Funny thing is, it's NOT safe no matter how you look at it.I tell people almost the opposite. If at any point you think skydiving is safe, maybe you should rethink your position.

Quade:

please do not take my words out of context, that is B.S. bro. the fact of the matter is this, hell yes, it's dangerous as hell, BUT, it can, and has been performed safely on a regular basis, if not, the stats would be inflated by far more than they are already are. your reply to my post was uncalled for, i'm no novice sky diver, and you know that. the fact of the matter is this: the sport is "dangerous" BUT, it can, and is performed every day in a "safe" manner.

--Richard--
"We Will Not Be Shaken By Thugs, And Terroist"

[quade 4]

I wasn't saying that -specifically- to you, but rather as I would to anyone asking about skydiving "safety".

No offense intended.

quade -
The World's Most Boring Skydiver

[Chief 0]

The only story I have is my own. Hopefully your friend will read it as it is intended. I was on a student canopy until 20 jumps. Things (landings) were progressing well. I went to a 215 Falcon F-111 at 22 jumps ( exit weight about 210#) and landings were good and fun. Then a 190 Robo, landing okay, but not great, then about 70 jumps, I went to a Sabre II - 170 ZP canopy.

WOW, that first landing came in so fast it truly was scarry. I did not expect it, nor did I know what to do with all that speed. I flared, too late, and it hurt. After several more jumps, I sought expert help with landings.

For my .02 cents, stay conservative until you can handle any situation with your current canopy before down sizing. Listen to the conservative, experienced jumpers. "You don't get old being stupid"