how do you prevent a PC in tow?

[Newbie 0]

is there one article online that details what steps are necessary to avoid them, both short and long?
Thanks

"Skydiving is a door"
Happythoughts

[hobbes4star 0]

one way is to make sure your closeing loop is not to tight. i belive it should be around 8-10lbs of pull on it.
also make sure you have cocked you PC, and that your PC is in good condition. which you should check monthly.

if fun were easy it wouldn't be worth having, right?

[christoofar 0]

Another cause for PC in tow is improper routing of your bridle. On some rigs with the tongue closing flaps, like Racers, you can easily "lock" the bridle when you close the rig. When someone else is packing for you, check the bridle to ensure it's properly routed for your rig.

Most people with CPCs have a window on the bridle that indicates that the PC is cocked. If you haven't already, make sure you ink the kill line that is exposed through the window when the PC is cocked. This lets you check to make sure the PC is cocked after you've stuffed it in the BOC, since all you have to do is open the closing flap and check the window.

In freefall, if you are limber enough, you could reach back and yank on the bridle to clear a PC-in-tow mal, assuming you don't jump a huge rig. If you can't, do what the SIM says and pull silver.

____________________________________________________________
I'm RICK JAMES! Fo shizzle.

[bmcd308 0]

Quote

In freefall, if you are limber enough, you could reach back and yank on the bridle to clear a PC-in-tow mal

Just don't spend the rest of your life trying.

BMcD...

----------------------------------
www.jumpelvis.com

[christoofar 0]

Here is an article that details PC in tow mals.

____________________________________________________________
I'm RICK JAMES! Fo shizzle.

[Newbie 0]

Quote

In freefall, if you are limber enough, you could reach back and yank on the bridle to clear a PC-in-tow mal, assuming you don't jump a huge rig. If you can't, do what the SIM says and pull silver.

________________

thanks for the help. Regarding what you said above though, that article you just posted up said not to do this in case the bridle is/gets misrouted around the harness and then you cant cutaway into clean air, deploying into a mess behind you.

"Skydiving is a door"
Happythoughts

[christoofar 0]

Quote

Quote

In freefall, if you are limber enough, you could reach back and yank on the bridle to clear a PC-in-tow mal

Just don't spend the rest of your life trying.

BMcD...

Just like most (but not all) other mals. Altitude awareness.

____________________________________________________________
I'm RICK JAMES! Fo shizzle.

[christoofar 0]

Quote

thanks for the help. Regarding what you said above though, that article you just posted up said not to do this in case the bridle is/gets misrouted around the harness and then you cant cutaway into clean air, deploying into a mess behind you.

Actually, the site says there is a serious situation for PC-in-tow when the bridle is misrouted around the harness. This occurs with ROL systems, not BOC systems. If you have an ROL I would definately take their advice.

Either way, if you are low, it's time to pull.

____________________________________________________________
I'm RICK JAMES! Fo shizzle.

[Newbie 0]

Quote

Actually, the site says there is a serious situation for PC-in-tow when the bridle is misrouted around the harness. This occurs with ROL systems, not BOC systems. If you have an ROL I would definately take their advice.

Either way, if you are low, it's time to pull.

ah ok, thanks for clearing it up

"Skydiving is a door"
Happythoughts

[Jessica 0]

We had some rather extensive discussion about this recently, and I think the opinion tended overwhelmingly toward TRYING TO CLEAR PC IN TOW = BAD. Judge for yourself.

(I don't know how to make the links pretty anymore. )

www.dropzone.com/cgi-bin/forum/gforum.cgi?post=159020;sb=post_latest_reply;so=ASC;forum_view=forum_view_collapsed;;page=unread#unread

www.dropzone.com/cgi-bin/forum/gforum.cgi?post=159598;sb=post_latest_reply;so=ASC;forum_view=forum_view_collapsed;;page=unread#unread

Skydiving is for cool people only

[billvon 3,107]

-Don't make your closing loop too tight.
-Make sure your pin is clean and not nicked.
-Don't misroute your bridle.
-Make sure you leave slack above the pin (on a throwout.)
-Make sure the bridle/PC remains essentially on top of the bag (on a pullout.)
-Make sure your (collapsible) PC is cocked.
-Make sure your kill line has not shrunk.
-Make sure your PC is in good shape.
-Pull stable.

[christoofar 0]

I'm pretty sure that uncocked CPCs in tow probably aren't going to get ya under your main without that much drag... and since most of us have CPCs it's probably best to go straight for the silver bullet.

PC-in-tow can quickly develop into really nasty mals (horseshoe, dual-squares, ball-o-shit, etc).

Gear check!

____________________________________________________________
I'm RICK JAMES! Fo shizzle.

[rendezvous 0]

I think with a pilot chute in tow if you are still low on experience it's best not to try and grab the bridle and shake it out. Just go for the silver or red and then silver whichever one you follow. Reason being, the mal is a high speed one. In trying to clear it you waste time and open yourself up to the possibility of a horse shoe or something equally messy if you land up loosing your balance while trying to reach for the bridle. The bridle may also just steer itself around your arm while you are trying to find it. It's better to just avoid that possibility.

[hobbes4star 0]

very good point indeed. i was taught that if you have a PC in tow go for both handles just in case the pin pops when the reserve comes, that way no dual deployment or ball o shit..

if fun were easy it wouldn't be worth having, right?

[fudd 0]

I've experienced a PC in tow malfunction due to my own stupid packing error. See pictures at one of my post at this thread
It all happnes very fast. You pull like normal at 3000' Almost at once you realize that something is wrong. The little snap that you can feel when the bag leaves the container doesn't come. It takes 5 seconds until you start your emergency procedure, and then you are at 2000'. That's 10 seconds before impact. 7.5 seconds before it to late to pull the reserve at all. If anybody think thats time enough to analyze the situation. Realize what's wrong. Try to correct it, and startemergency procedures if it still doesn't work. Go ahead, but my guess is that you will be found dead with the reserve at line stretch. If you pull at 2500 you got even less time.
My philosophy is if somethings wrong, don't analyze. Cut and pull silver. In situations where you got some sort of canopy lika a spinning canopy with twin, you have a little more time. Anyhow, it's no shame to wimp out and pull silver.
Look at the picture showing my idiot mistake.
A good practice when closing the container is to hold the PC in one hand and watch the bridle all the way down to the pin. Then throw the PC and watch it catch air so you KNOW it's cocked. I allways do this routine now when I've closed my container. Just wished I started doing that a little sooner, before I had to hit silver. I've learned my lesson the hard way. Hope I can prevent someone else from doing that.
Get someone to check your gear and pin before you enter the plane and before exit is also a good practise. However, two experienced jumpers didn't see my misrouted bridle so it's never a 100%. Ask someone you trust and know to check if possible.
Blue skies - let's go play!
-fudd

There are only 10 types of people in the world. Those who understand binary, and those who don't.

[freeflir29 0]

After my own recent experience with this mal, I just have one thing to say. Don't screw around. I threw out at ~3000. I immediately recognized that the PC was not inflating. I could feel the bridle just dancing around but there wasn't much tension on it. Normally the pin is pulled very quickly and I feel quite a tug when the bridle extends. By the time I said "Oh shit" to myself and just thought about moving my hand....it inflated and I felt the pin pull. Lucky me.....I have replayed the video and this took about 3 seconds. I was under my main at 1700 Ft. If I had actually had to cut away and pull my reserve I'm sure I would have been close to 1000ft. Thats damn low during a high speed mal. Moral of the story......recognize a PC in tow FAST and execute your emergency procedures even faster. You don't have a lot of time to play with.

[pilotdave 0]

Sounds like ftp://ftp.skydivingmovies.com/public/misc/pcit.mov (3.5 megs). Takes about 3 seconds from throwing to deployment. 3 seconds sure looks like a looong time when you've got a pilot chute trailing behind ya.

I had a PC in tow a while ago. It was around jump #45 or so I think. Cause was a shrunken kill line not letting the PC fully inflate. Without even thinking about it, I reached back and yanked the bridle. I'm happy I did it because the thought of deploying my reserve right into my main PC doesn't sound too nice to me and everything came out fine, but after all I've read, if it happens again I'd probably cut away and pull the reserve.

Dave

[ernokaikkonen 0]

>-Don't make your closing loop too tight.

Is this really something to worry about? I've been told that if you can close the container without tools, the loop isn't too tight. I'd be more worried about too loose closing-loops, inviting a horse-shoe for a visit....

Erno

[riggerrob 643]

Loose loops are definitely dangerous. I had a horse-shoe malfunction because I was too lazy to shorten my main loop when I down-sized canopies. My laziness forced me to spend the rest of the afternoon searching for my brand new canopy. The next day I got to repack my reserve. Oh joy!
On the other hand, it is almost impossible to have too short a loop with a throw-out pilotchute (i.e. BOC). If you cannot close it with a pull-up cord, then it is too tight.

[billvon 3,107]

>>-Don't make your closing loop too tight.

>Is this really something to worry about?

Under normal situations, no. A working PC can easily generate 50lbs of force. But take a rusty pin (harder to extract) a ragged out F111 PC with a heat-shortened Spectra kill line and a slow deployment (on, say, a very light jumper) and a too-tight closing loop might make a difference. Most skydiving incidents are the result of several things going wrong at once, and a very tight loop might be one of those things.

[freebird 0]

How do you tell if the kill line has shurnk?

If you have a pc in tow and cuttaway first, is the cuttaway force going to be enough to release the pin?

I was taught that if you have a pc in tow that there is nothing to cuttaway and to pull silver. But now Im not sure I would like to be sure of clear air when my last chance comes out.

[billvon 3,107]

>How do you tell if the kill line has shurnk?

There is a piece of thin webbing from the apex of the PC to its base. If the kill line is shorter than this piece of webbing, it has shrunk. If it's significiantly shorter, then it is pulling down the apex and reducing the effectiveness of the PC - in effect, the PC is always "killed" a little. When that happens it's time to replace the kill line.

>If you have a pc in tow and cuttaway first, is the cuttaway force going
> to be enough to release the pin?

No. Cutting away will not cause a "force" since the main is not deploying, or even off your back. On the other hand, deploying the reserve may cause a shock that frees the main and causes a deployment. You can cut away before you deploy the reserve - that will help avoid a two canopy out situation if that happens.

>I was taught that if you have a pc in tow that there is nothing to
> cuttaway and to pull silver. But now Im not sure I would like to be
> sure of clear air when my last chance comes out.

Not cutting away saves time; important when you are still in freefall with nothing out (or very little out.) Cutting away first can help avoid a two-out situation. Note - cut away in this situation only if you have good riser covers. If they suck, then the risers might release and flap around over the reserve, which is a bad thing since you're about to deploy it.

[Skyrose7 0]

I believe you should choose one emergency system and stick with it. Whether or not you "need" to cutaway, if you train yourself mentally to cutaway and then pull silver, that is what you will do (hopefully). Besides, why risk having to canopies out...just my .02

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
The mind is like a parachute--it works better when it is open. JUMP.
MaryRose

[fudd 0]

I totally agree. Practise one system and stick with it.
Most important of all. In case of emergency, do SOMETHING. It's to sad to read about people who goes in with the reserve handle still in place.
I heard of people changing their emergency routine after 500 jumps from two hands on each handle cut and pull, to right hand cutaway left hand pull silver. When they have to cut away, they automaticly do the original routine that they've practised so many more times.

There are only 10 types of people in the world. Those who understand binary, and those who don't.

[ernokaikkonen 0]

>I heard of people changing their emergency routine after
> 500 jumps from two hands on each handle cut and pull,
>to right hand cutaway left hand pull silver. When they have
>to cut away, they automaticly do the original routine that
>they've practised so many more times.

I switched to "one hand on each handle"- emergency procedures at about 400 jumps. I had my first cutaway at about 550ish jumps, and did use my new procedures. I had both handles with me when I landed.

The point is: it's not enough just to decide "oh well if I have to cutaway I'll do it with one hand on each handle", you have to practise it. I did. Pretty much on every ride to altitude(during the time I seem to be napping...), I go through the jump in my mind. The exit, the jump itself, breakoff, deployment, emergency procedures.

Erno