michaeljanzen 0 #1 September 4, 2002 on 8-24 i was the last one out of our 182 doin a little sit flyin the jump was going great then i went thru a cloud as i came out the bottom i got on my belly to pull i saw what i hoped to never see. out of the whole sky and only 3 other jumpers, there was an open canopy directly below me. not 1000 feet but what looked like 200 feet so i did a quick side slide an pulled as i passed that other canopy i could have reached out and gave a high five it really shook me up, not enough to give up the sport but just enough to make me throw my unpacked rig in the truck and go home. i know my quick thinking probably saved both our lives but was it the correct course of action? "the sweet just aint as sweet without the bitter " Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
skybytch 273 #2 September 4, 2002 Quotethen i went thru a cloud Mistake #1. This is one of the reasons why skydiving through clouds is not a good idea (besides the fact that there could be other bad things - i.e. airplanes - hiding in or below the cloud). Oh yeah, if you're in the US, it's also against the FAR's. Quotewas it the correct course of action? Sounds like it to me. You avoided what could have been a nasty collision; good job. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites billvon 3,080 #3 September 4, 2002 >i know my quick thinking probably saved both our lives but was it the > correct course of action? I generally advocate pulling immediately in that situation. It's difficult to judge altitude over another canopy; we have no experience with it. It's also difficult to judge which way to go to avoid impact since they are not guaranteed to move in a predictable way. A fast deployment and a quick opening may save you; even if you do impact the other canopy at least you will be decelerating. Of course, the real answer to how to save your life is to not get out over clouds and to leave enough exit separation so such near collisions are avoided in the first place. Good skydivers use their superior judgement and common sense to avoid needing to use their superior flying skills to save their lives. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites sitflyr 0 #4 September 4, 2002 Sounds like you may have exited too quickly after the previous jumper. Also, any time you punch through a cloud, you never know what will be on the underside of it (maybe even in it). Glad nobody got hurt. Julie Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites crazy 0 #5 September 4, 2002 Quoteit really shook me up, not enough to give up the sport but just enough to make me throw my unpacked rig in the truck and go home. i know my quick thinking probably saved both our lives but was it the correct course of action? No. When such a serious problem happens, you should, first cool down, then talk with the other jumpers involved to find out what happened. Did you (or the other) track along the jumprun? Was the exit order appropriate (why did you exit last)? Why did you exit too early... Maybe there is no obvious and straightforward answer, but at least you will get a better understanding and you will have a better chance to prevent the problem next time. -- Come-- Come Skydive Asia Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites gemini 0 #6 September 4, 2002 You did what you had to do...and both jumpers survived. As some of the others have said, examine what happened so you can avoid doing it again. When I had about 60-70 jumps, I asked a 3 way if I could follow them out and watch. They said yes just don't try to dock. The exit was uneventful, and I stayed slightly above and several hundred feet off to one side. The uppers had changed dramatically which was causing us to drift away from the dz. We hit the cloud top at 9000. I decided to fall straight through since I didn't want to track over the 3-way. At 4500 I was coming out of the cloud with my full face and altimeter fogged. As I wiped the altimeter, I saw something out of the corner of my eye. It was a deploying canopy directly below me. I also had only enough time to stick an arm out and sideslip to one side. On the ground I walked up to the other jumper and apologized and told him I was totally at fault. He said no, he was too! When he hit the cloud he lost track of the other two in the three way and tracked away and went directly under me because he had forgotten I was out there. 1. Don't follow others out unless you are part of their dive, part of the planning, and part of the breakoff. 2. Don't go through clouds. 3. Don't lose sight of the formation ever! 4. Know where you are tracking. 5. 6-8 seconds or 45 degrees between groups may not be enough separation. Know what the upper winds are doing...ask the pilot or the DZM. 6. Don't pull high unless everyone behind you knows and agrees. 7. Breakoff at the planned altitude...always! Blue skies, Jim Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites billvon 3,080 #7 September 4, 2002 >6-8 seconds or 45 degrees between groups may not be enough > separation. I agree that that time may not be enough separation depending on aircraft speed and winds, but the 45 degree angle thing simply never works. John Kallend did a pretty good analysis why not a while back. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites gemini 0 #8 September 4, 2002 Yes and the simulator he referred to showed situations where groups intersected by varing the spacing and winds. Don't know how accurate it is, but it was an eye opener! Blue skies, Jim Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites wonko 0 #9 September 4, 2002 Quote John Kallend did a pretty good analysis why not a while back. where can it be found?villem life is what you make it to be http://www.youtube.com/villu357 http://www.flickr.com/photos/skybound Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites Gravitymaster 0 #10 September 4, 2002 http://www.iit.edu/~kallend/skydive/ Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites diverdriver 6 #11 September 4, 2002 http://www.iit.edu/~kallend/skydive/separation.ppt This is the Power Point presentation that has a lot of info on the "why" of freefall seperation. Read it through several times. It will have example winds and conditions. But you can put in your own stuff too and play with it to see. Remember, minimum seperation between jumpers on deployment needs to be 300 feet. This will allow 3 seconds to decide that there is a threat, decide a course of action, and then take that action to avoid the collision.Chris Schindler www.diverdriver.com ATP/D-19012 FB #4125 Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites freeflir29 0 #12 September 4, 2002 Along with exit seperation you mentioned that you were sit flying. I have seen some pretty horrible sit flying in my time and witnessed many people end up NO WHERE NEAR the spot they got out. Backsliding is VERY common among beginners and even some people that should know better. Especially on a solo where you don't have other jumpers to reference. ALWAYS turn and face 90 deg from jump run when practicing your free flying. Most common is backsliding or driving forward. I have seen people cover half a mile or more during free fall. Plus....all the other things everyone else mentioned. Be safe out there. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites Join the conversation You can post now and register later. If you have an account, sign in now to post with your account. Note: Your post will require moderator approval before it will be visible. Reply to this topic... × Pasted as rich text. Paste as plain text instead Only 75 emoji are allowed. × Your link has been automatically embedded. Display as a link instead × Your previous content has been restored. Clear editor × You cannot paste images directly. Upload or insert images from URL. Insert image from URL × Desktop Tablet Phone Submit Reply 0
billvon 3,080 #3 September 4, 2002 >i know my quick thinking probably saved both our lives but was it the > correct course of action? I generally advocate pulling immediately in that situation. It's difficult to judge altitude over another canopy; we have no experience with it. It's also difficult to judge which way to go to avoid impact since they are not guaranteed to move in a predictable way. A fast deployment and a quick opening may save you; even if you do impact the other canopy at least you will be decelerating. Of course, the real answer to how to save your life is to not get out over clouds and to leave enough exit separation so such near collisions are avoided in the first place. Good skydivers use their superior judgement and common sense to avoid needing to use their superior flying skills to save their lives. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
sitflyr 0 #4 September 4, 2002 Sounds like you may have exited too quickly after the previous jumper. Also, any time you punch through a cloud, you never know what will be on the underside of it (maybe even in it). Glad nobody got hurt. Julie Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
crazy 0 #5 September 4, 2002 Quoteit really shook me up, not enough to give up the sport but just enough to make me throw my unpacked rig in the truck and go home. i know my quick thinking probably saved both our lives but was it the correct course of action? No. When such a serious problem happens, you should, first cool down, then talk with the other jumpers involved to find out what happened. Did you (or the other) track along the jumprun? Was the exit order appropriate (why did you exit last)? Why did you exit too early... Maybe there is no obvious and straightforward answer, but at least you will get a better understanding and you will have a better chance to prevent the problem next time. -- Come-- Come Skydive Asia Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
gemini 0 #6 September 4, 2002 You did what you had to do...and both jumpers survived. As some of the others have said, examine what happened so you can avoid doing it again. When I had about 60-70 jumps, I asked a 3 way if I could follow them out and watch. They said yes just don't try to dock. The exit was uneventful, and I stayed slightly above and several hundred feet off to one side. The uppers had changed dramatically which was causing us to drift away from the dz. We hit the cloud top at 9000. I decided to fall straight through since I didn't want to track over the 3-way. At 4500 I was coming out of the cloud with my full face and altimeter fogged. As I wiped the altimeter, I saw something out of the corner of my eye. It was a deploying canopy directly below me. I also had only enough time to stick an arm out and sideslip to one side. On the ground I walked up to the other jumper and apologized and told him I was totally at fault. He said no, he was too! When he hit the cloud he lost track of the other two in the three way and tracked away and went directly under me because he had forgotten I was out there. 1. Don't follow others out unless you are part of their dive, part of the planning, and part of the breakoff. 2. Don't go through clouds. 3. Don't lose sight of the formation ever! 4. Know where you are tracking. 5. 6-8 seconds or 45 degrees between groups may not be enough separation. Know what the upper winds are doing...ask the pilot or the DZM. 6. Don't pull high unless everyone behind you knows and agrees. 7. Breakoff at the planned altitude...always! Blue skies, Jim Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
billvon 3,080 #7 September 4, 2002 >6-8 seconds or 45 degrees between groups may not be enough > separation. I agree that that time may not be enough separation depending on aircraft speed and winds, but the 45 degree angle thing simply never works. John Kallend did a pretty good analysis why not a while back. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
gemini 0 #8 September 4, 2002 Yes and the simulator he referred to showed situations where groups intersected by varing the spacing and winds. Don't know how accurate it is, but it was an eye opener! Blue skies, Jim Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
wonko 0 #9 September 4, 2002 Quote John Kallend did a pretty good analysis why not a while back. where can it be found?villem life is what you make it to be http://www.youtube.com/villu357 http://www.flickr.com/photos/skybound Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Gravitymaster 0 #10 September 4, 2002 http://www.iit.edu/~kallend/skydive/ Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
diverdriver 6 #11 September 4, 2002 http://www.iit.edu/~kallend/skydive/separation.ppt This is the Power Point presentation that has a lot of info on the "why" of freefall seperation. Read it through several times. It will have example winds and conditions. But you can put in your own stuff too and play with it to see. Remember, minimum seperation between jumpers on deployment needs to be 300 feet. This will allow 3 seconds to decide that there is a threat, decide a course of action, and then take that action to avoid the collision.Chris Schindler www.diverdriver.com ATP/D-19012 FB #4125 Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
freeflir29 0 #12 September 4, 2002 Along with exit seperation you mentioned that you were sit flying. I have seen some pretty horrible sit flying in my time and witnessed many people end up NO WHERE NEAR the spot they got out. Backsliding is VERY common among beginners and even some people that should know better. Especially on a solo where you don't have other jumpers to reference. ALWAYS turn and face 90 deg from jump run when practicing your free flying. Most common is backsliding or driving forward. I have seen people cover half a mile or more during free fall. Plus....all the other things everyone else mentioned. Be safe out there. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
