Cam helmet bolt lost in plane

[potatoman 0]

Something to learn from....I hope
Camera helmet on for a fun jump this weekend. 5000ft, I do my normal camera checks, and all of a sudden, I am sitting with the chin strap in my hand. The pin from my cutaway system pulled out of the bolt, and now the bolt fell somewhere in the aircraft. Not to be found.

Notified pilot.
Decission made not to jump (not licensed enough to jump without helmet)
AAD switched off for the ride down.
Then, the co-pilot grips the helmet, and fits another bolt. Problem here, the bolt is a bit too long, so now there is a snag point, and the cut-away system is no more. I have however got 2 cutaways on this helmet.

Decision made to continue jumping.
Good or bad?

I made the jump, made sure my head was on my chest on deployment, to avoid the snag as much as possible.
Also, the AAD was not turned on again, obvious reasons. I asked the other jumpers to increase breakoff by 500ft.

Could have gone bad, it didn't.
Not sure what to think of this event, but surely will make sure this doesn't hahppen again. Maybe some improvement on the cutaway pin setup. (I did check the helmet before putting it on on the ground.)

Any comments welcome, if we can learn from it.

You have the right to your opinion, and I have the right to tell you how Fu***** stupid it is.
Davelepka - "This isn't an x-box, or a Chevy truck forum"
Whatever you do, don't listen to ChrisD.

[obatzda 0]

you jump camera but you are not licenced enough to jump without helmet?

i realy dont get it.

i would just deploy the helmet somewhere and jump whats the big deal?

[potatoman 0]

Empty profile, so not sure where you are from.

In most countries, you can jump camera long before you can jump without a helmet. Camera, you still have a helmet on...

You have the right to your opinion, and I have the right to tell you how Fu***** stupid it is.
Davelepka - "This isn't an x-box, or a Chevy truck forum"
Whatever you do, don't listen to ChrisD.

[obatzda 0]

ah ok now i understand it, was a bit confused first :)

what helmet was it?

[potatoman 0]

Locally made..., and years old, so can't remember the name. Looks something like this on the attachment.

You have the right to your opinion, and I have the right to tell you how Fu***** stupid it is.
Davelepka - "This isn't an x-box, or a Chevy truck forum"
Whatever you do, don't listen to ChrisD.

[obatzda 0]

but i think you should have sticked with your first decission, turning off the AAD and then wanting to jump thats how things can get realy nasty.

two cutaways allready and you consider yourself as not experienced enough for nonhelmet, maybe leaving the camera at home would be much safer - you decide.

edit: why do we need regulations for everything, just think about it a camera for a student cant be good for any reason. the situation you created was caused mainly by the camera.

[potatoman 0]

lol.

The camera has got two cutaway systems on it. One on the side, and one on the chin.

Leave the cam at home and not get the shot, no ways. Remember, it was safe to start with. What had changed.... Snag point, and no AAD.

You have the right to your opinion, and I have the right to tell you how Fu***** stupid it is.
Davelepka - "This isn't an x-box, or a Chevy truck forum"
Whatever you do, don't listen to ChrisD.

[rastapara 0]

Where did the copilot find the other bolt? is the plane scattered with lose bolts

Parachute gear garage sale at :http://www.usedparachutes.eu

[potatoman 0]

He ripped open a small panel, with a small plastic bag inside, and boom, there he pulled out a bolt. Don't worry, I was seriously amazed too. (Initially, the little yellow plastic bag looked like his prescription meds...)

You have the right to your opinion, and I have the right to tell you how Fu***** stupid it is.
Davelepka - "This isn't an x-box, or a Chevy truck forum"
Whatever you do, don't listen to ChrisD.

[airtwardo 7]

Quote

He ripped open a small panel, with a small plastic bag inside, and boom, there he pulled out a bolt...

Prolly a Beech driver at some point.

~ If you choke a Smurf, what color does it turn? ~

[mr2mk1g 10]

airtwardo

Quote

He ripped open a small panel, with a small plastic bag inside, and boom, there he pulled out a bolt...

Prolly a Beech driver at some point.

Fun story - jumping in Russia a few years back from an MI8 helicopter. Two drivers up front plus an in-flight mechanic. Most flights, somewhere around 8k or so, there would be a loud ticking/buzzing noise coming from a panel just above the access door to the cockpit. Mechanic would come out with a spanner and whack it repeatedly until it stopped before returning to his seat in the cockpit. Russians.

[DcloudZ 0]

potatoman

Something to learn from....I hope
Camera helmet on for a fun jump this weekend. 5000ft, I do my normal camera checks, and all of a sudden, I am sitting with the chin strap in my hand. The pin from my cutaway system pulled out of the bolt, and now the bolt fell somewhere in the aircraft. Not to be found.

Notified pilot.
Decission made not to jump (not licensed enough to jump without helmet)
AAD switched off for the ride down.
Then, the co-pilot grips the helmet, and fits another bolt. Problem here, the bolt is a bit too long, so now there is a snag point, and the cut-away system is no more. I have however got 2 cutaways on this helmet.

Decision made to continue jumping.
Good or bad?

I made the jump, made sure my head was on my chest on deployment, to avoid the snag as much as possible.
Also, the AAD was not turned on again, obvious reasons. I asked the other jumpers to increase breakoff by 500ft.

Could have gone bad, it didn't.
Not sure what to think of this event, but surely will make sure this doesn't hahppen again. Maybe some improvement on the cutaway pin setup. (I did check the helmet before putting it on on the ground.)

Any comments welcome, if we can learn from it.

You would think that after over 100,000 jumps you should be able to jump without a helmet? You asked obatzda to fill in his profile, perhaps you should do the same?

My opinion is that once you made the decision to not to jump and switched off the AAD you should have stuck with it. Jumping with an increased snag risk is less of a problem IMHO but the combination of snag + no AAD is slightly worrisome. Especially since you had an issue in the plane that probably commanded most of your attention on the ride to altitude that could have culminated in forgetting or neglecting certain safety checks!

The process of an accident starts long before they actually happen. Be careful!
As usual hindsight is 20/20, not trying to be over critical!

"Better to have a short life that is full of what you like doing than a long life spent in a miserable way." -Alan Watts

[wooskydive 0]

K, so maybe I was misinformed, but about a year ago I listened to our VERY experienced pilot in charge explain to an AFF instructor why she was an idiot for thinking an AAD could fire while descending in the plane.

[mr2mk1g 10]

AAD's, especially student versions, can be tricked into firing in a descending plane if the pilot is not careful. I've seen it happen.

Either the pilot in your example did not know what they were talking about or they knew to be careful during their descent... though even then I wouldn't say an instructor was an idiot for being concerned in the situation.

SOP in the UK at least is usually to turn off any student AAD's in the event the plane is to descend with a student aboard or at the very least to advise the pilot not to descend anywhere close to the 13m/s firing parameter of a CYPRES below 1500ft.

[wooskydive 0]

mr2mk1g

AAD's, especially student versions, can be tricked into firing in a descending plane if the pilot is not careful. I've seen it happen.

Either the pilot in your example did not know what they were talking about or they knew to be careful during their descent... though even then I wouldn't say an instructor was an idiot for being concerned in the situation.

SOP in the UK at least is usually to turn off any student AAD's in the event the plane is to descend with a student aboard or at the very least to advise the pilot not to descend anywhere close to the 13m/s firing parameter of a CYPRES below 1500ft.

I should have pointed out that they use standard cypreses in their student gear.

[ChrisD 0]

How big, long was this bolt?
I think you showed excellent awarness of the snag issue , but dosen't this beg the question of what is a bigger snag hazard; a bolt or the camera in the first place?

I don't know your camera setup, but I love seeing those streamlined, enclosed camera helmets as compared with the large boat anchors with the christmas tree of cameras stuck on top.

So glad you did camera checks, that thing could have landed on someone?

Helmets are always a good idea. Raises the question of: Do you know if your aircraft is carrying extra goggles?

Many will say that jumping without a helmet, isn't a big deal, many will point out that the vast majority of Tandem rides wear frap hats, (is that a helmet?) hard helmets and tandems are an issue in themselves and I don't want to get into that discussion.

But does it make sense to reduce your experience to a question like: Should helmets be worn in the first place?

I am glad you brought this to the table cause most skydiving helmets don't offer much protection, some are downright scarey, and some 2012 incidents are pointing to helmet snags that actually caused some fatalities!

Don't need no stinkin helmet if I collide head on. Nor do I need a helmet if I don't pull. This is pointing out the range of possibilities where and when a helmet is a benifite as compared with where a helmet is a waste of time. Some kind of numbers game I think?

I know that I have gotten a foot in the face more times than I care to remember, and will certianly say that having a helmet has saved my eyes because of this.

But on the other hand I have done a number of solos without my helmet. I look back at those times and cringe because of the times I have stumbled upon landing and was glad I was wearing my pro-tec!

The bolt thing can be an issue in aircraft that have pully and wire control systems, which is most jump aircraft. It dosent take much to screw with that system which is why most systems are fully covered. I would say the potential is small...but as a pilot I'm gonna find that screw.

Very glad you did something, C

But what do I know, "I only have one tandem jump."

[champu 1]

1) I don't like those straight cotter-pin style helmet release systems. While probably better than nothing, they tend to be very dependent on pull direction, they include a bunch of parts that all love to oxidize and jam up making operation questionable, and even if you do get the cotter pin out they can require a bunch of tugging, shoving, and luck to get the strap off under load.

2) If you're helmet is so prone to snags that you compromise your body position during deployment in an attempt to prevent them then you shouldn't be jumping the helmet. Tucking your head down is a really good way to lower your shoulders unevenly which will give you asymmetrical and potentially harder openings, plus it puts your neck in an awkward orientation that may not cause problems right away but can lead to repetitive stress injuries.

3) I'm skeptical of jumping anything that was kludged together on the ride up to altitude. Even assuming it does hold up it's going to have my attention on the way down which is going to a) detract from safety and b) probably detract from my filming of the skydive, more than likely to the point of defeating the purpose of the kludge in the first place. Going back and forth on jumping or not jumping on the way up will only amplify this.

4) Stowing it and jumping without a helmet? Eh... maybe... it would depend on the jump. I've jumped without a helmet a few times and prefer the noise attenuation I get with a helmet on. I have enough jumps where not making one more isn't a big deal, but then I also happen to think that should apply regardless of jump numbers.

[potatoman 0]

Just to clarify on some questions... The pin used to go on the inside of the helmet. With this fix, the cutaway cable was merely going on the outside of the helmet, bolt keeping the loop in plce.

Anyhow, thanx for your thoughts.

You have the right to your opinion, and I have the right to tell you how Fu***** stupid it is.
Davelepka - "This isn't an x-box, or a Chevy truck forum"
Whatever you do, don't listen to ChrisD.

[wmw999 2,595]

Quote

My opinion is that once you made the decision to not to jump and switched off the AAD you should have stuck with it. Jumping with an increased snag risk is less of a problem IMHO but the combination of snag + no AAD is slightly worrisome. Especially since you had an issue in the plane that probably commanded most of your attention on the ride to altitude that could have culminated in forgetting or neglecting certain safety checks!

I'm going to agree that the distraction of losing the bolt would be worrisome, but disagree strongly that having to turn off the AAD increases the risk.

If you need the AAD to manage risk, then this isn't the sport for you. If you have made a personal commitment not to jump without one, that's different, and just fine. But if you honestly think that an AAD is necessary to be safe enough, I don't think you're relying on yourself enough, and that's far more worrisome.

Wendy P.

There is nothing more dangerous than breaking a basic safety rule and getting away with it. It removes fear of the consequences and builds false confidence. (tbrown)

[DcloudZ 0]

wmw999

Quote

My opinion is that once you made the decision to not to jump and switched off the AAD you should have stuck with it. Jumping with an increased snag risk is less of a problem IMHO but the combination of snag + no AAD is slightly worrisome. Especially since you had an issue in the plane that probably commanded most of your attention on the ride to altitude that could have culminated in forgetting or neglecting certain safety checks!

I'm going to agree that the distraction of losing the bolt would be worrisome, but disagree strongly that having to turn off the AAD increases the risk.

If you need the AAD to manage risk, then this isn't the sport for you. If you have made a personal commitment not to jump without one, that's different, and just fine. But if you honestly think that an AAD is necessary to be safe enough, I don't think you're relying on yourself enough, and that's far more worrisome.

Wendy P.

I jump at a place where having an AAD is mandatory which I fully condone. Personally, I would not jump without one and I find your comment regarding my opinion on AADs rude and unwarranted.

I did not indicate that I am not relying on myself enough and you have no basis to make a statement like that. I want to have an AAD in my rig for the POSSIBILITY that I get incapacitated in freefall. I hope I never have to use it and it's just a precautionary measure. I turn it on and ignore it.

"Better to have a short life that is full of what you like doing than a long life spent in a miserable way." -Alan Watts

[potatoman 0]

Wendy,

I catch your drift. Yet, I am confident jumping without an AAD. It is just an added risk.

As for the jump, fun with serious potential to mess up, with people I haven't jumped with, or at least this type. So, increased chance to get a knock on the head.

You have the right to your opinion, and I have the right to tell you how Fu***** stupid it is.
Davelepka - "This isn't an x-box, or a Chevy truck forum"
Whatever you do, don't listen to ChrisD.

[nigel99 634]

It's an interesting point that isn't really discussed. If you find yourself doing any sort of rigging in the aircraft, do you jump?

Personally I wouldn't , but I hadn't considered it before. In the wild old days I know of a main being partially repacked in the aircraft

I think last minute fixes put you in a bad mental state for a jump.

Experienced jumper - someone who has made mistakes more often than I have and lived.

[degeneration 5]

In the UK, you are not allowed to jump without a helmet/frap hat (that i'm aware of)... so unwearable helmet = ride down.

I've also seen someone get his container closed pretty much on run in. On a pin check, the closing flap had been put in the wrong place, so when checking the pin it also pulled out the pin. Fortunately someone had a pull up handy, the guy faceplanted on the floor of the plane, and man with pull up went to town closing the container on run in. Got it all done in time too.

Sky Switches - Affordable stills camera tongue switches and conversion adaptors, supporting various brands of camera (Canon, Sony, Nikon, Panasonic).

[3mpire 0]

Quote

Fortunately someone had a pull up handy, the guy faceplanted on the floor of the plane, and man with pull up went to town closing the container on run in. Got it all done in time too.

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