Really hard opening

[rigging65 0]

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BTW....you may want to read this experiment done by a fellow DZ.commer.....only lines stowed were the locking stowes, kindof like the new D-bag javalin is coming up with.

Actually, none of the stowless bag designs around out there use locking stows. The bag is kept shut using tuck tabs, not stows. And, as we've been over in another long thread, stow bands have nothing to do with reducing hard openings. Keeping the canopy in the bag until the lines are at tension (ie- opening in correct sequence) and the slider being properly positioned are the two biggest things you can do to help yourself out with hard openings.
TIGHT LINE STOWS DO NOT STOP HARD OPENINGS!!!

"...and once you had tasted flight, you will walk the earth with your eyes turned skyward.
For there you have been, and there you long to return..."

[Craig 0]

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Before anyone does that, call your container manufacture (NOT your canopy manufacture). Remember, the D-bag and PC size was tested as part of the container system and is known to provide enough drag to pull everything out of the container. Going smaller may give you severe PC hesitation or even a PC in tow (its happened before).

Been there done that. Listened to a canopy manufacturer advising to use a smaller pilot and had several PC tow that cleared. The final straw was a 5 or so second delay from 3,000ft. with a PC towing for about 5 seconds with a slow opening canopy. Needless to say I put the old PC back on.

[hookitt 1]

AH yes.. the line stow experiment. I truly freepacked the lines a couple time this weekend leaving only the locking stows single stowed with large rubber bands and 3inch bites. (please don't do as I do, This is not a haphazard experiment) Still soft openings out of a track right out of a head down, one with 10 pounds of weights on.

It's all about staged deployments. Not the tightness of the rubber bands. I'll add to the line stow experiment post with details.

My grammar sometimes resembles that of magnetic refrigerator poetry... Ghetto

[ManBird 0]

Hell, if anything, stowing can be a bad thing. Bag locks are bad. I cringe when I see someone double stow. Just too much wrong there.

"¯"`-._.-¯) ManBird (¯-._.-´"¯"

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[hookitt 1]

Double stowing doesn't cause bag locks. You have to try pretty hard for that to happen.

A standard double stow will come right off and that includes the locking stows. It sure does wreck a lot of rubber bands though. If people still want to double stow it's ok by me. Since I now find it unneccessary I'll stop doing it.

Cheers.

My grammar sometimes resembles that of magnetic refrigerator poetry... Ghetto

[rigging65 0]

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Double stowing doesn't cause bag locks. You have to try pretty hard for that to happen.

Absolutely. Baglocks are caused, 99.9% of the time, by a long stow looping over another one and half-hitching itself in place.

IMO, the reason to double stow is simply to use larger rubber bands because they're easier to get over the lines in the first place. If they're loose, get smaller bands.

"...and once you had tasted flight, you will walk the earth with your eyes turned skyward.
For there you have been, and there you long to return..."

[billvon 3,123]

>Before anyone does that, call your container manufacture (NOT your
> canopy manufacture).

You should talk to both. Any main/container system has two parts that interact with each other.

>Remember, the D-bag and PC size was tested as part of the
>container system and is known to provide enough drag to pull
>everything out of the container.

Based on a given weight/bulk of main parachute. That weight/bulk can change.

>Smaller PCs to fix opening problems is what I call "a bandaid fix" it
>doesn't actually solve what is wrong.

Often it does, if the PC is too large to begin with. Most manufacturers are better nowadays at putting the right PC on to begin with. (My first racer had a 36" PC; caused a lot of hard openings.)

[AggieDave 6]

And after talking to my manufacture, they asked if I had a Colbalt, I said no. They said, good, since people who jump those have serious problems with the smaller PC at some sizes. Even after we tell them not to switch, they do and end up having severe PC hesitation. There was even a PC in tow reserve ride due to a PC being 22" instead of the size we put with the container.

--"When I die, may I be surrounded by scattered chrome and burning gasoline."

[hookitt 1]

I still believe in what I said about the double stows however under some extraordinary circumstances it can happen. Read this Private message I got just a few minutes ago from a highly respected skydiver/rigger/instructor.....
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I had a bag lock on a tandem Sunday because someone double stowed the rubber bands. The second stow "streched" without letting go of the lines, which put tension on the third stow. Between the second and third stows, being double wrapped, It back locked. It took a lot of pull force on the ground to get the to un-stow, two people pulling hard. Very exciting mal

SO there ya have it.... it can happen. Keep in mind it's a tandem, and the rubber bands are different. It can also depend on how it's double stowed. One way will just come off the lines the other will tighten and tighten untill it finally comes off or breaks.

Exciting mal to say the least

My grammar sometimes resembles that of magnetic refrigerator poetry... Ghetto

[skycat 0]

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Double stowing doesn't cause bag locks. You have to try pretty hard for that to happen.

A standard double stow will come right off and that includes the locking stows. It sure does wreck a lot of rubber bands though. If people still want to double stow it's ok by me. Since I now find it unneccessary I'll stop doing it.

Cheers.

It can happen though.....Derek had a reserve ride this weekend on a tandem due to the stows being double stowed. Can you say tandem terminal reserve ride....OUCH!!

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FYI....tandems are different than normal deployments in that the drouge collapses after it is released and before the canopy is out of the bag...the outcome probably would have been different on a sigma or strong where the drouge collapses after the canopy is out of the bag.

Fly it like you stole it!

[rigging65 0]

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the outcome probably would have been different on a sigma or strong where the drouge collapses after the canopy is out of the bag.

Ummm...Sigma drogues collapse once the container opens, as do most drogues...

"...and once you had tasted flight, you will walk the earth with your eyes turned skyward.
For there you have been, and there you long to return..."

[hookitt 1]

heheh.. I see you didn't read my post right above yours hehe..

Have hook show you how the drogue collapses on the sigma as well. He didn't post since it was not a sport rig. None the less, Yes it CAN happen. I still stand by the statement I made earlier.

BTW, i've double stowed fat tandem rubber bands for 11 years with out incident (who knows how many pack jobs that is). I'd like to see how the bands were stowed on his rig. There is one way that will tighten until the rubber band breaks. The other way just works.

AANNNnnyyy wayy... as if I'd expect any thing less... He did great.

C-ya

My grammar sometimes resembles that of magnetic refrigerator poetry... Ghetto

[skycat 0]

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Have hook show you how the drogue collapses on the sigma as well.

*laugh* he was the one who told me that about sigmas......he is checking his book right now......Apparently another rigger told him they collapse after the canopy is out of the bag.

So everyone mark this in your books....hook was actually wrong about something.

Fly it like you stole it!

[hookitt 1]

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So everyone mark this in your books....hook was actually wrong about something.

It's April Fools day, no one's going to believe it

My grammar sometimes resembles that of magnetic refrigerator poetry... Ghetto

[ManBird 0]

A few points/rebuttals:

A) I didn't say double stowing was the biggest cause of bag locks or that it is even a big cause of them, only that it can cause bag locks. It's like using sighting on a camera helmet. Chances are, you won't get a snag, but it happens. Hell, it's like a lot of stuff in this sport that gives you a reserve ride or worse that only happens 0.01% of time.

B) Experiment with double/multiple stows. Pack up, get someone to hold/wear the rig and pull the PC/bridle to get the bag open. Most of the time, everything will go just fine. Build a ratio of the times you got a bag lock against the number of attempted openings. In some of my experiments with this, I've found myself standing at a 45° with all my weight into it... the lines hung up on only a single stow.

C) It also depends on line size/rubber bands, etc. Double stowing a large band below the cascades on Spectra won't be much of a hindrance. Double stowing a small skyband on Vectran would.

D) I think we all agree that double stowing doesn't stage openings.

"¯"`-._.-¯) ManBird (¯-._.-´"¯"

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[ManBird 0]

In contribution/confirmation about what does stage openings, IMO, slider positioning is #1. Read up on the Wolmari method, if you don't know it already. Let's see if I can remember it exactly (this is what I do, anyway, and my Sabre openings are smooth because of it):

- Shove the nose to about the center of the canopy, don't roll it.
- Expose the slider and quarter it evenly.
- Cup the quarters and pull the slider slightly towards the nose
- Wrap the tail, do not roll it, or only roll it enough to keep your pack job from coming apart

And that's it really. If I do the above, even if I'm a little sloppy (OK, very sloppy) getting it in the bag, the position of the nose and the large "cup" in front of it keep the canopy from inflating the moment it's out of the bag. Flying a Sabre 120, I've definitely had some slammers that caused neck pain or even left me dazed. Not a problem anymore.

"¯"`-._.-¯) ManBird (¯-._.-´"¯"

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