Discuss Ideas and Possibilities of Safety Concerns Here

[Casch 0]

Due to the increased hostility in the Fatality Skydive Arizona thread in the incidents forum reguarding discussing possibilities and speculation as to the cause of the incident versus discussion of known facts, I decided to end the bickering and form this thread. Feel free to give your opinion as the the cause of ANY incident reguarding skydiving here. Now lets all be a happy family.

"Won't You Be My Neighbor?" - a well known phrase coined by the man of my worst nightmares.

[wmw999 2,545]

Now that there's a speculations thread (thanks, Casch), I'd like to agree with the folks who say the "didn't put her contacts in" theory is invalid are dead on from everything I know.

I don't wear them, but someone with really bad eyesight is usually quite seriously impaired without their contacts. It's not like squinting to read. My son can't see the big E on the chart, and can really only tell where the chart is if they tell him which wall it's on. It would never dawn on him to do anything without his glasses if it weren't to save his life. Skydiving wouldn't be on the list.

I hope it's figured out. Sometimes there isn't enough information, and if you spread too much of it around, folks who know pieces of it will begin to try to interpret what they remember.

Wendy W.

There is nothing more dangerous than breaking a basic safety rule and getting away with it. It removes fear of the consequences and builds false confidence. (tbrown)

[Casch 0]

I'm having a hard time visualizing what your glove could get caught in/on to cause you to not be able to bring the handle back up?

Also some one mentioned that if Holly's handle was stuck in the pulled down position, that she could have easily planed out by pulling down the other toggle. My question is, would strength have been an issue here? Could it be that if the handle was stuck down, that the forces from the turn made the opposite toggle too hard to pull down to plane out?

[wmw999 2,545]

Glove-speculation:
If gloves are a long in the fingertips (which is easy if you have short stubby fingers -- I'm one of those), then getting a fingertip caught is possible. I'm very careful with my selection of gloves because of it.

Extracting the hand from the glove can taken longer when there's tension on the glove and pressure on you.

What can it get caught in? There are tight places in the webbing, broken zipper-- weird stuff, but sometimes weird stuff happens.

Wendy W.

There is nothing more dangerous than breaking a basic safety rule and getting away with it. It removes fear of the consequences and builds false confidence. (tbrown)

[freakydiver 0]

I'm blind as a bat without my contacts in, but I honestly think I could still manage a decent landing without my contacts in. I guess that would depend on the person, their comfort level with their vision imparement and so on and so on.

-- (N.DG) "If all else fails – at least try and look under control." --

[wmw999 2,545]

But would you drive to the DZ without them?

If one or both came out during freefall, of course. Even if one came out in the airplane, maybe. If you'd ridden to the DZ while someone else drove, wouldn't you be likely to put them in during the ride?

Wendy W.

There is nothing more dangerous than breaking a basic safety rule and getting away with it. It removes fear of the consequences and builds false confidence. (tbrown)

[freefallfreak 0]

Casch,
I don't know if she was using her dive loops (or even if she had dive loops) but I do know of one instance where gloves got caught in the loops and the jumper hit hard cause he couldn't get his hands out of them to flare. I'm not suggesting that this is what happened. I just know that it can happen.

FFF

P.S. I solved my problem with glasses. I ordered a pair of prescription googles and that did the trick for me.
Edited to add post-script

[Cajones 0]

Another possibility with gloves:

I sometimes wait to unstow my brakes,steering with my risers. I have put part of my hand through the excess steering lines reaching for the toggles, before, and had my hand get caught by the steering line when I unstowed my brakes. I did get my glove unstuck, but it required both hands. Another good reason to stow the excess brake line after setting your brakes.

I doubt this' the case, as she was so low when she initiated the turns, but something to be aware of - especially when wearing gloves.

The laws of physics are strictly enforced.

[nacmacfeegle 0]

"I have put part of my hand through the excess steering lines reaching for the toggles, before, and had my hand get caught by the steering line when I unstowed my brakes."

I've done this on my Spectre, resulting in a brake line knot which needed a cutaway to resolve it.

Spectres have deep brake sttings, but it was basically down to shoddy stowing of the brakes...My bad. I fooled so feelish when I landed....

--------------------

He who receives an idea from me, receives instruction himself without lessening mine; as he who lights his taper at mine, receives light without darkening me. Thomas Jefferson

[Ronnie 0]

Not to get people in a frenzy, but could it be suicide?

[Zenister 0]

uh ok i guess it should be asked but NO

next speculation, thanks.

____________________________________
Those who fail to learn from the past are simply Doomed.

[JeffGordon 0]

Not in reply to any paticular post, but I wonder if a hard toggle turn could have initiated line twists? If she had done a hard toggle turn and then as a result of the line twists not been able to release the brake?

[wildblue 7]

Quote

Not in reply to any paticular post, but I wonder if a hard toggle turn could have initiated line twists? If she had done a hard toggle turn and then as a result of the line twists not been able to release the brake?

I actually had thought of that too, but with the canopy type and loading, self-induced linetwists are unlikely.

Another question - anyone know if Holly made a habit of pulling the slider down the risers or not?

it's like incest - you're substituting convenience for quality

[jlmiracle 7]

Unfortunately, I got to witness a fatality just like this one a few years back.

No one knows what happened. He had a camera on, and was jumping a big canopy (200ish) on a really windy day. He was set up to land and was over shooting the peas, did 1 360 and would have been okay but never stopped the turn.

Contact theory: she may have lost one or both in freefall. I really really doubt she just didn't put them in. Sinus problems mess with my vision, this could have been a possibility.

Brake line hang up - Its happened to me, after opening, and after both brakes were released.

There may have been more than one factor that contributed to this accident.

I did not know Holly, but from everything I've read, I wish I had.

It really sucks when shit happens to good people and we get no good explanation.

Judy

Be kinder than necessary because everyone you meet is fighting some kind of battle.

[freakydiver 0]

Quote

uh ok i guess it should be asked but NO

next speculation, thanks.

Last time I checked this particular forum is for discussing ideas and possibilities, is there really any need to be a smart ass? I could (barely, its a stretch) understand your comment if it were in the Incidents forum as no speculation is allowed there (apparently), but whats the point of being a smart ass here?

-- (N.DG) "If all else fails – at least try and look under control." --

[wmw999 2,545]

Well, just as whoever asked has every right to ask, someone who knows Holly and is hurting seriously with this has every right to answer as they see fit. Really.

Anything is possible; but as far as everyone knew, Holly was upbeat all the time, and not that fake upbeat, but the "I'm in charge of my life and will make it exactly the way I want it" kind. They rarely commit suicide, and even more rarely do they do it in a manner to hurt their sport and their friends.

Wendy W.

There is nothing more dangerous than breaking a basic safety rule and getting away with it. It removes fear of the consequences and builds false confidence. (tbrown)

[freakydiver 0]

No not "really" as there are rules against personal attacks in these forums. Really. And don't think for one second that just because I didn't personnaly know this jumper that I am not hurting inside because of her loss. My only point is that we should try to be as friendly to EVERYONE in a discussion forum as the RULES state. The reason we are posting speculations here is because we were asked to and now we have to put up with getting ragged on here as well??? Makes no sense. Really.

-- (N.DG) "If all else fails – at least try and look under control." --

[Zenister 0]

i was not being a smart ass at all..but if you read the original incident report you'll see several indications that it was not a suicide, and if you knew holly you'd understand exactly how ridiculous the question was in the first place.

however not everyone knew her so i answered the question with some emphasis just to be sure it wasnt missed, and there is really not much reason to speculate further down such blind paths

believe me i can be a serious smart ass when i wish

____________________________________
Those who fail to learn from the past are simply Doomed.

[freakydiver 0]

Gotcha. All apologies as I took your comment as very smart in nature.

Again, condolences to all.

I can't spell today btw...

-- (N.DG) "If all else fails – at least try and look under control." --

[Zenister 0]

no worries, thats the downside of text forums, misunderstanding happen sometimes..

____________________________________
Those who fail to learn from the past are simply Doomed.

[freakydiver 0]

I've just been getting bashed left and right for trying to figure out where to post what, I need to drink a beer and relax already. Is my knee better yet??? Is it jumping season yet?????

Blue skies all

P.S. Arapahoe Basin just got THREE FEET OF FRESH POWDER AND I CAN'T UTILIIZE IT SO SOMEONE GO HIT IT UP FOR ME!!!!!

-- (N.DG) "If all else fails – at least try and look under control." --

[CanuckInUSA 0]

Quote

Arapahoe Basin just got THREE FEET OF FRESH POWDER AND I CAN'T UTILIIZE IT SO SOMEONE GO HIT IT UP FOR ME!!!!!

But the road from Loveland pass is closed. Good thing you can always get there from Keystone.

Try not to worry about the things you have no control over

[freakydiver 0]

No doubt. Will film for food at Berthoud this weekend...

-- (N.DG) "If all else fails – at least try and look under control." --

[Ronnie 0]

Haven't we all heard "I never knew she was so depressed, she seemed so happy, full of life, I would have never thought she would do something like that." When in fact, deep down, the person is in so much pain, life is unbearable. Hasn't a mother said that about a son, sister about sibling, or friend about a friend? Sometimes if one looks deeper, all the signs are there. I am not implying that she did or did not kill herself, it was just a thought that I was pondering and wanted to share. Maybe that is because I am in the field of mental health and my brain thinks that way? Sorry if I upset you or caused you more pain. I know death is a hard thing to deal with, expecially death by suicide because so much guilt is associated with it. Again, it was just a thought. And to those who responded to Zenister, don't blast him (her?), he was just expressing himself from an emotional place. I took no offense, so I hope others don't too.
Ronnie

[CanuckInUSA 0]

Yes I believe we do understand what you saying about someone hiding their pain. But for those of us who were lucky enough to know Holly (and I didn't know her nearly as much as others), we just can't imagine Holly to be in that frame of mind. She had so much positive energy and was such a happy girl to everyone she met. I'm sure Zenister (who's a dude BTW) was just trying to put his foot down on that sort of speculation.

BSBD ...

Try not to worry about the things you have no control over