Required Cutaway Training

[FliegendeWolf 0]

I was wondering this the other day. Would it make sense to implement a required cutaway jump at some point in training? Obviously, this would necessitate the use of a tertiary belly-mounted reserve. Wouldn't this be a good way of reinforcing ground training?

A One that Isn't Cold is Scarcely a One at All

[davelepka 4]

For real? You think it's a good idea to put a belly mount reserve on a student (or low time jumper), have them open a good canopy, only to cut it away, and try the reserve? Seriously? OK, here we go..

PRO's
1. Actual cutaway experience

CON's
1. Complicated rigging and procedures for an already overloaded student.
2. Potential loss of main canopy, cutaway handle, reserve ripcord, and freebag.
3.Excess wear and tear on reserves in student gear.
4.Cost of keeping round reserves in date, repacking student reserve, additonal training and rigging required, plus jump ticket would add up to well over $100 (if no components were lost) for a hop and pop.

Still think it's a good idea? Ever heard of a hanging harness? Think your DZO would approve of you doing an intentional cutaway with 17 jumps?

Oh, here's a good one, what if we gave the main a line over, so we could reinforce the malfunction training? Of course that would mean a whole series of intentional cutaways. One for the baglock, one for the streamer, one for the horseshoe (call me for that one, I'll video that for free).

Oh, yeah, no offense or anything, but have 3000+ jumps with no cutaways. I'd like to keep it that way, and I think that if you open a good canopy, you should land it.

[billvon 3,118]

>I was wondering this the other day. Would it make sense to
> implement a required cutaway jump at some point in training?

I was required to do one to get my tandem rating. I already had an unintentional cutaway so I didn't need to do one, but others had to use a belly mount and do an intentional. It's an excellent way to practice cutaway procedures, although I don't think we've seen a lot of fatalities due to people not knowing what to do during emergency procedures.

[andy2 0]

maybe its because Im a student, and just beginning skydiving, but man, if I pull my main and have a good canopy, Im landing that shit. Thousands of feet in the sky is for real, and I for won't listen to anyone tell me to fucking cutaway a perfect main.

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let my inspiration flow,
in token rhyme suggesting rhythm...

[billvon 3,118]

>Thousands of feet in the sky is for real, and I for won't listen to
>anyone tell me to fucking cutaway a perfect main.

Let's say you have a static-lined tertiary main. You jump and that's deployed. Then you cut away and are back in freefall with your normal main and normal reserve. Would that still give you the willies? That's what I've done in the past; works well, and there is no change to your 'normal' emergency procedures once you're back in freefall.

[rigging65 0]

I'm not a big fan of putting someone without too many jumps into a live cutaway situation (providing they don't need to be there). Also, I don't think "triple" rigs do a good job of simulating a cutaway...you need to pull the handles with them in the correct places (IMO).

I do think you could work a live cutaway into the 'D' license (soon to be 500 jumps) criteria. Of course, my idea of what a Master Parachutist's license needs to include is a bit more broad than what I think most people are willing to put up with.

IMO, to get the highest license offered, I think you should be able to complete a predetermined routine in: RW, Freefly, CReW, Style, do night RW, Freefly and CReW, shoot both traditional and sport/swoop Accuracy, land a canopy with a loading over 2.0 while in control, hold some sort of Instructor rating and hold a rigger's rating.

Why? Because to be labeled a "MASTER" means you can do everything. Back in the day of rounds and surplus gear, 200 jumps did give you a lot of experience. At the risk of derailing this thread even further, 200 jumps just isn't a big deal any more...hell, 500 jumps is hardly a big deal any more!

"...and once you had tasted flight, you will walk the earth with your eyes turned skyward.
For there you have been, and there you long to return..."

[Amazon 7]

I got my first cutaway back in the days of rounds. The round main was a wad of crap that needed to go away.. fast. I chopped the main with the J-1 Capewells and deployed the reserve C-9 orance and white from the front mounted reserve container. I got the 2nd cutaway on the same rig. Number 3 was a Military demo jump into the water. I was a very bad girl and cut it away( not approved procedure) and cut away and went to the belly reserve. That was the only reserver ride I could not blame on me and my packing techniques. Number 4 and 5 were 26' Lopo in a pig rig.

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IMO, to get the highest license offered, I think you should be able to complete a predetermined routine in: RW, Freefly, CReW, Style, do night RW, Freefly and CReW, shoot both traditional and sport/swoop Accuracy, land a canopy with a loading over 2.0 while in control, hold some sort of Instructor rating and hold a rigger's rating.

I for one have NO desire or incling whatsoever to EVER do CRW. I think watching someone go in (bounce) wrapped in a canopy kinda soured me on the idea. Then again I did one psuedo-CReW under a T-10 as some idiot ran off the top of my canopy on my third jump at Fort Benning. AS far as jumping a canopy with a wingloading of 2.0 or higher I will leave that to the younger jumpers that heal faster than I do. I load at about 1.2 and will stay there.

I may get an instructors rating at some point and maybe even a riggers ticket. But those are ancillary certs that are necessary IF someone wants to make thier living at skydiving. Do they make someone even more expert in the air???????? I tend to doubt it, but I do think everyone should know as much as they can about thier sport.

All the other disciplines I have done. I am not too bad at RW, can freefly, majorly sucked at STYLE but did it. Night RW was way kewl and I love shooting accuracy both sport( which I did for the first time in May) and Classic.
I think its better to have inclusive ratings rather than exclusive. I think the raising of the bar to 500 for a D is a good thing. It gives people time to hone thier skills and be safer in the sport.

Amazon

[billvon 3,118]

>I for one have NO desire or incling whatsoever to EVER do CRW. . .

>I may get an instructors rating at some point and maybe even a riggers ticket.

There's a lot of value in learning some CRW if you're going to teach. When teaching someone how to handle two canopies out (which is essential in the FJC) it helps to know how to do that first hand.

>Do they make someone even more expert in the air????????

The AFF rating _definitely_ makes people better in the air.

[livenletfly 0]

personaly id love to do an intentional cutaway. i have 375 jumps and its still the big unknown to me. i think it could only make me a better skydiver. im currently working on my riggers ticket. this has been great for me, i have 100% confidence in reserves now and am anxious to let one rip. is that wrong?

>

[rigging65 0]

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I may get an instructors rating at some point and maybe even a riggers ticket. But those are ancillary certs that are necessary IF someone wants to make thier living at skydiving. Do they make someone even more expert in the air???????? I tend to doubt it, but I do think everyone should know as much as they can about thier sport.

Not a problem. I can totally understand not wanting to pursue certain aspects of the sport. I, for one, am not all that crazy about freeflying. Mostly because I'm a Master Rigger and I work on the most modern gear regularly AND NONE OF IT IS MEANT TO HANDLE THE SPEEDS ASSOCIATED WITH FREEFLY. Now, the extra speed doesn't bother some folks, so it's all good for them, just not for me.

But... if you're not going to at least gain some proficiency in all areas of the sport, you have no business holding a MASTER PARACHUTIST'S License...because you're not a MASTER!

I think if you're going to restructure the licenses, having a MASTER license shouldn't really get you anything extra (ie- you shouldn't need it to do open field demos, night jumps, whatever), but instead it should be there as an accomplishment for those that are proficient at all aspects of the sport.

As for Rigging and Instructing not making you a better skydiver, I cry BS! Skydiving isn't just falling through the sky, it's about gear understanding, body flight dynamics, canopy handling, trouble shooting, emergency procedures....in short, it's about EVERYTHING! And if you don't have at least a background in EVERYTHING, then you're certainly not a MASTER.

This is in no way directed at anyone, but I think we as a society are so caught up in being "the best" or obtaining the "highest level" that we get pissed when that level actually requires us to be not just good, but great, at what we're participating in.

Not everyone would get a MASTER license (if the changes I've mentioned were made), but then, not everyone can be a MASTER. Just my opinion....

"...and once you had tasted flight, you will walk the earth with your eyes turned skyward.
For there you have been, and there you long to return..."

[phoenixlpr 0]

IMHO it makes no sense to me. In Finland you have to practice cutaway as a student and get an exam about in every 3 month, but on the ground!!! I was sitting in a harmness my instructor put demo table over me, it shows a canopy in some situation. I had to make a decision and solve the situation you had fast. You can have the routine this way. This is the theory. In practice I have 3 of them. One of them was my fault, My first Reserve Ride for details. Do I have to feel myself more experienced that other eg, D licensed jumpers? I know its a bit too much with my number of jumps, but you know shit happans. I dont feel more confident afterall. If I had a situation I would follow the regulation just before and in this case nothing has changed. Having a cest monted reserve is not the same with the original situation. On the other hand what if your chest monted is not working properly? Is it time to practice cutaway with a knife??? Is it any reason to cutaway a good and working canopy? Is it any sence to eject from a working plane??? Is the only difference that your canopy wont damage anything compairing with an unmanned airplane? Think! Do you want to put your or others life in more danger than needed? The MASTER is just a term for D. And so what? That think that you allowed to do anything doesnt mean that you are capable to do everything. So IHMO the training is required, but not a live one.

Safe landings.

[indyz 1]

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I do think you could work a live cutaway into the 'D' license (soon to be 500 jumps) criteria.
...
Why? Because to be labeled a "MASTER" means you can do everything

The D license doesn't say "Master" on it, and hasn't for a while.

[AndyMan 7]

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But... if you're not going to at least gain some proficiency in all areas of the sport, you have no business holding a MASTER PARACHUTIST'S License...because you're not a MASTER!

Please correct me if I'm wrong, but I could've sworn that the word "master" was dropped from the 'D' licence years ago.

If I'm correct this argument is disingenuous and bordeline unethical.

That said, I would love to see modern skydiving skills rolled into the current licensing scheme.

_Am

__

You put the fun in "funnel" - craichead.

[phoenixlpr 0]

You are right.

FAI "D" certificate sticker: "Senior Parachutist"

http://www.fai.org/parachuting/certificates_proficiency/

Safe landings

[Tonto 1]

Bad idea, for all the reasons already given, plus - it's not really experience, is it? It's a drill. Can you do it when you've been booted in the face and are having a violently spinning mal? That's what counts.

It's easy. Practice the drills, do them when you need them - and the suspended harness is always there.

t

It's the year of the Pig.

[btucker 0]

A friend of mine (<100jumps) cutaway following a low speed mal. They got really freaked out and confused; thought they'd chopped the reserve! Fortunately an AAD was fitted that picked up the pieces and a uneventful, albeit short, reserve ride was the result.

Maybe some merit in what you suggest. A few people at my DZ have done a intentional (with and without tertiaries).

Before I had a mal, I would have loved to give it try; Although I'm not at all trained to fly or deploy a round belly mount or cutaway a reserve with a knife.

Maybe just go up without the tertiary and chop the main. Works for BASE jumpers


Blues, Benno

[John4455 0]

I did an intentional breakaway for my tandem rating. Did it on a Strong "Tri-dem" rig, that had 3 squares on the back. It was way cool, wouldn't mind doing it again. A great experience and confidence builer.

How do ya like it Johnny?

[riggerrob 643]

Practicing emergency procedures in a hanging harness is a great idea.
Genuine emergencies are great confidence builders, but I am leery about intentional cutaways.
The last time we did an intentional cutaway at Pitt Meadows it turned into a giant cluster f**k! We started out with good intentions (i.e a guy with no reserve rides who wanted to earn a tandem rating), but the plan quickly fell apart.The only guy who flew his slot was the star and the rest of them just cluttered up the sky.
What really ticked me off was that I was only an observer - with no assigned role - but I ended up being the only person stumbling through the tall grass and falling in drainage ditches - at sunset - searching for the freebag, while the two guys who had agreed to retrieve loose parts had landed by the hangar and were drinking beer.

A long time ago, one of the national organizations required an intentional cutaway for a C or D license, but the practice proved too dangerous. Some of those african-engineered rigs were scary!

If you are not willing to focus on an intentional cutaway the same way you would focus on a BASE jump or movie stunt, please stay away from intentional cutaways.

[sducoach 0]

Here we go again.............................

James 4:8

[rigging65 0]

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I do think you could work a live cutaway into the 'D' license (soon to be 500 jumps) criteria.
...
Why? Because to be labeled a "MASTER" means you can do everything

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The D license doesn't say "Master" on it, and hasn't for a while.

You guys are right, I am wrong. The word MASTER does not appear on the license anymore. I apologize...obviously it's been a while since I've read up on them.

But I still think my point is valid. If you want to obtain the highest level or license in an endeavor, you should be at least proficient at every aspect of it. Otherwise, how can you be at the "highest" level???

"...and once you had tasted flight, you will walk the earth with your eyes turned skyward.
For there you have been, and there you long to return..."