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[kallend 2,158]

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OK John..

Lets get simple.

Dod yo think that it is easier to get HP canopies now (For EVERYONE) than it was a few years ago?

Take into account you have Dan P saying that a Cobalt is good for students.

Ron

In my experience, it has never been difficult, so I guess the answer to your question is no.

...

The only sure way to survive a canopy collision is not to have one.

[wmw999 2,593]

You're an intelligent, resourceful college professor. You have many years' worth of experience at listening to every excuse in the book.

Of course you're above average in resourcefulness. If data points of some dozen is inadequate to judge whether the danger of too-aggressive downsizing is worth doing something about, a data point of one is inadequate to decide if it's easier to get hold of a high-performance canopy when you're unqualified to fly it.

Wendy W.

There is nothing more dangerous than breaking a basic safety rule and getting away with it. It removes fear of the consequences and builds false confidence. (tbrown)

[billvon 3,121]

>In my experience, it has never been difficult, so I guess the answer
>to your question is no.

Shortly after I started, our DZO bought a Monarch 190. It was a brand new canopy; no one was allowed to jump it but him because it was so dangerous. He refused to order any smaller ZP canopies through his channels for people because they were too dangerous. There were a few people who were not allowed to jump there due to their jumping tiny canopies. At the Ranch, you could not get small Stilettos at first, primarily due to the additional waiver.

Nowadays 1:1 loadings are actually pushed on new students; no one recommends F111 any more So in my experience it has become a great deal easier to get a HP canopy for lesser experienced jumpers. Please keep in mind that there are dropzones outside Skydive Chicago, and most of them are quite different.

[JamesNahikian 0]

'...worth doing something about..."
______________________________________________________

Sure, we can do _something_ about it. Yet the situation will remain unaffected. Attack the real concerns if you actually want to solve the problem.

D. James Nahikian
CHICAGO

[kallend 2,158]

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You're an intelligent, resourceful college professor. You have many years' worth of experience at listening to every excuse in the book.

Of course you're above average in resourcefulness. If data points of some dozen is inadequate to judge whether the danger of too-aggressive downsizing is worth doing something about, a data point of one is inadequate to decide if it's easier to get hold of a high-performance canopy when you're unqualified to fly it.

Wendy W.

Just answering the question as asked, Ma'am. He asked what I think and got an appropriately anecdotal reply. The problem with anecdotal evidence is that it is likely to be insufficient and selective - just like all the stories in this thread about low timers biffing in.

Until we have the complete picture with unbiased data, it's all just opinion.

[kallend 2,158]

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> Please keep in mind that there are dropzones outside Skydive Chicago, and most of them are quite different.

I bought my Stiletto from the gear store at a large and well known drop zone in southern California - about 2100 miles from Chicago. I am sure you are very familiar with the place, the staff, and the owner who obliged me.

...

The only sure way to survive a canopy collision is not to have one.

[Hooknswoop 19]

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In my experience, it has never been difficult, so I guess the answer to your question is no.

In my experience, skydivers are jumping canopies at too high of a wing loading before they are ready, resulting in injuries and fatalities.

If I can't use 'experience', either can you.

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The Cobalt can be a good canopy for students who are trained on the Cobalt or a similar design at a committed and progressive dz.

What do you base that statement on?

I have JM'd 1753 students ("In my experience"), including Tandems, Static Line, and AFF/AFP, using everything from 292 Skymasters to a Sabre 170 (after first doing 3 working tandems and progressing down from larger Sabres and the 170's where only used for the smaller students that demonstrated the ability to handle it), as student canopies. I would never use a "high performance", " elliptical", Cobalt 170 (The Cobalt canopy is available in the following sizes: 65,75, 85, 95, 105, 120, 135, 150, & 170), as a canopy for a student. I have asked if any DZ has used Cobalts for student canopies and I believe the answer was "yes", but didn't answer the 'where' part of the question. Turned out that the real answer was "no", because DP still considered someone with a license a student. So Cobalts have not been used as student canopies.

Hook

[JamesNahikian 0]

Likewise. Perhaps the moral thing is to seek the return of the money I have on account at the gear store I believe you refer to.

D. James Nahikian
CHICAGO

[kallend 2,158]

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You're an intelligent, resourceful college professor.

Want a date?

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Of course you're above average in resourcefulness. If data points of some dozen is inadequate to judge whether the danger of too-aggressive downsizing is worth doing something about, a data point of one is inadequate to decide if it's easier to get hold of a high-performance canopy when you're unqualified to fly it.

Wendy W.

I repeat: I bought a Stiletto some years ago when I had 39 jumps from a very large California gear store whose name rhymes with "bare fun", and the owner set up the sale as I described. I did not need any resourcefulness, just cash in hand (metaphorically speaking - it was a mail order sale). I believe anyone could have done the same.

Before criticizing my one datum, how about asking how many folks here besides me have ANY experience of trying to buy a HP canopy with less than 50 jumps 5 or more years ago.

...

The only sure way to survive a canopy collision is not to have one.

[billvon 3,121]

>Before criticizing my one datum, how about asking how many folks
>here besides me have ANY experience of trying to buy a HP canopy
>with less than 50 jumps 5 or more years ago.

10-11 years ago I floated the idea of my buying a Sabre 210 instead of a used PD190. I figured it would glide better and last longer, and at my 90 jump level I figured I could handle it as well as my current Pursuit 215 (which I hurt myself on on several occasions due to its lack of flare.) Our DZO wouldn't hear of it; the PD was so much safer than the Sabre, he said.

[andy2 0]

[QUOTE]I bought a Stiletto some years ago when I had 39 jumps from a very large California gear store whose name rhymes with "bare fun", and the owner set up the sale as I described. I did not need any resourcefulness, just cash in hand (metaphorically speaking - it was a mail order sale). I believe anyone could have done the same.
[/QUOTE]

so how has this changed since then? What I can make of it we as a society of skydivers are more willing to take risks (i.e. fly smaller canopies), but dealers are less willing to sell pocket rockets to low time jumpers. Is this correct?

---------------------------------------------
let my inspiration flow,
in token rhyme suggesting rhythm...

[kallend 2,158]

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In my experience, it has never been difficult, so I guess the answer to your question is no.

In my experience, skydivers are jumping canopies at too high of a wing loading before they are ready, resulting in injuries and fatalities.

If I can't use 'experience', either can you.

The difference is that I'm not trying to impose a new rule on the community, and you are. You should be held to a higher burden of proof.

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The Cobalt can be a good canopy for students who are trained on the Cobalt or a similar design at a committed and progressive dz.

What do you base that statement on?

I didn't write that. You have misquoted.

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I have JM'd 1753 students ("In my experience"), including Tandems, Static Line, and AFF/AFP, using everything from 292 Skymasters to a Sabre 170 (after first doing 3 working tandems and progressing down from larger Sabres and the 170's where only used for the smaller students that demonstrated the ability to handle it), as student canopies. I would never use a "high performance", " elliptical", Cobalt 170 (The Cobalt canopy is available in the following sizes: 65,75, 85, 95, 105, 120, 135, 150, & 170), as a canopy for a student. I have asked if any DZ has used Cobalts for student canopies and I believe the answer was "yes", but didn't answer the 'where' part of the question. Turned out that the real answer was "no", because DP still considered someone with a license a student. So Cobalts have not been used as student canopies.

Hook

See above - I haven't mentioned Cobalts in this or any other thread.

...

The only sure way to survive a canopy collision is not to have one.

[Hooknswoop 19]

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I didn't write that. You have misquoted.

Sorry, I got lazy and replied to two different posts in one post. The second part of my post was in reply to another poster, sorry for the confusion.

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The difference is that I'm not trying to impose a new rule on the community, and you are. You should be held to a higher burden of proof.

You make it sound so sinister. "Impose a new rule". How about "establish a BSR that addresses canopy control incidents". You make it sound like I am a wanna-be dictator, "imposing my will upon the masses".

Experience is all we have, and it has worked in the past. In the absence of another system, should we not address any problems with a new BSR until such a system could be established?

Lets' assume for a second, that we agree that the problem is real. Let's go so far as to assume that everyone agrees that there is a problem. Why handicap ourselves by saying that we must first gather hard evidence of the problem? If this was NASA, the I would agree with you. Stop everything, investigate the problem, sparing no expense, then develop a fix to the problem and implement the fix after making sure the fix really works and is safe. I have seen this happen at NASA. It is cumbersome, expensive and slow. It even fails to sometimes fix the problem.

You have obviously put a lot of thought into this proposed BSR, do you have any thoughts on an alternative solution?

Hook

[Ron 10]

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Before criticizing my one datum, how about asking how many folks here besides me have ANY experience of
trying to buy a HP canopy with less than 50 jumps 5 or more years ago.

I tried to buy a Stiletto 97 when I had 300 jumps...PD would not sell it to me, and in fact CALLED me to talk to me about it.

After some time talking to them, they said they would sell me the 107, but recomended strongly the 120...I listened to them and got the 120...And hooked it in on jump #3 on it..

"No free man shall ever be debarred the use of arms." -- Thomas Jefferson, Thomas Jefferson Papers, 334

[sducoach 0]

I bought a Stiletto in 94, custom order. Had to prove more than 500 jumps and sign two waivers. Now you can buy one with zero jumps and a credit card?????

Blues,

J.E.

James 4:8

[Ron 10]

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I bought a Stiletto in 94, custom order. Had to prove more than 500 jumps and sign two waivers. Now you
can buy one with zero jumps and a credit card?????

Yep. And that is a problem...A guy with 20 jumps does not know he does not have the skill to handle it...Most times a guy with 300 jumps does not know he does not have the skill.

And the bigger problem is there are places that will let him jump it.

I don't have a problem with a guy jumping something he PROVES he can handle. I do have a problem with a guy that just wants to go smaller because he stood up 90% of his landings.

Ron

"No free man shall ever be debarred the use of arms." -- Thomas Jefferson, Thomas Jefferson Papers, 334