freakydiver 0 #1 July 2, 2003 "i dont see how dragging it into every incident report it may or may not apply to is helpful to anyone." If it raises awareness for just one more person that it sure as shit is helpful... -- (N.DG) "If all else fails – at least try and look under control." -- Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Scrumpot 1 #2 July 2, 2003 Relative to wing loading BSR recommedation opinion statements in every incident post... QuotePost: "i dont see how dragging it into every incident report it may or may not apply to is helpful to anyone." If it raises awareness for just one more person that it sure as shit is helpful... It is not (necessarily) helpful, IMHO. Nor is it respectful. Go ahead & post that "this BSR recomendation would NOT have affected the outcome of this incident" in the Hazelton, PA incident thread then if you truly beleive this. Again, I submit instead that would serve no purpose other than to be disrespectful, at the behest of (attempting to) further one's own personal (and debatable) individual cause.coitus non circum - Moab Stone Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Zenister 0 #3 July 2, 2003 Quote"i dont see how dragging it into every incident report it may or may not apply to is helpful to anyone." If it raises awareness for just one more person that it sure as shit is helpful... and distorts the perception that is already prevalent...ie more people are dying than are flying safely... misleading and ultimately unhelpful.____________________________________ Those who fail to learn from the past are simply Doomed. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Ron 10 #4 July 2, 2003 QuoteIt is not (necessarily) helpful, If it helps ONE person its worth it. Quote Nor is it respectful. To whom? Its a fact that his high wingload and lack of experience contributed to this accident and the injuries. Pointing out a FACT is not disrespectful. QuoteGo ahead & post that "this BSR recomendation would NOT have affected the outcome of this incident" in the Hazelton, PA incident thread then if you truly beleive this. I'll let you do that...It is not a factor..so I don't care..However it DOES point the lack of education about canopy flight. QuoteAgain, I submit instead that would serve no purpose other than to be disrespectful, at the behest of (attempting to) further one's own personal (and debatable) individual cause. And I disagree....You don't like what I write feel free to not read anything I write. As for me I have the right to point out what I see. And I will contiune to do just that."No free man shall ever be debarred the use of arms." -- Thomas Jefferson, Thomas Jefferson Papers, 334 Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Scrumpot 1 #5 July 2, 2003 QuoteAnd I disagree....You don't like what I write feel free to not read anything I write. As for me I have the right to point out what I see. And I will contiune to do just that. And please do! ...I have absolutely no problem with us disagreeing, or "debating". You completely misread (or at least mis-respond to) my point. My reply was based on the brief divurgence of this string into the "pro vs. con" of the (being debated ELSEWHERE) recommended wingloading BSR debate. I'm not even saying whether I agree or disagree on that! I do in fact fully agree that it is appropriately debatable ...but now I digress. My only point in this post was in support of a statement that I don't think was read very well. And that is that interjecting this DEBATE in every incident thread, whether it is applicable or not, would be beneficial just on the merits that if it helps even one person think about it, it has helped. And that is purely BUNK! That would be the same as bringing the pro-cypres vs con-cypres or RSL debate into this very same thread. It just is NOT appropriate! Someone else (not you) had said something in support of who cares if it was appropriate or not, as long as it "helped". My example points out how for instance in the Hazelton, PA incident it would NOT be, and I think you agree with me on that. Posting that a wingloading BSR COULD HAVE been a factor in preventing an incident, where that does appear to be FACT (ie: a 20-jump wonder pounding in under a 1.4 loading) is probably fine, and again I do not dispute that. However, it is NOT appropriate to post it to EVERY incident. Plain & simple. Get it now? Apparently HH did, as I see this has now been moved (where I was tangentially asserting it BELONGED), and that is in a debate thread itself in the 1st place!coitus non circum - Moab Stone Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Ron 10 #6 July 2, 2003 Quote My only point in this post was in support of a statement that I don't think was read very well. And that is that interjecting this DEBATE in every incident thread, whether it is applicable or not, would be beneficial just on the merits that if it helps even one person think about it, it has helped. And that is purely BUNK! However in the case of THAT thread it WAS relative. QuoteThat would be the same as bringing the pro-cypres vs con-cypres or RSL debate into this very same thread. It just is NOT appropriate! I disagree I think it IS appropriate. However a big difference between the AAD/RSL and the WL issue is that MOST agree that AAD's/RSL's are good. In fact most of the retoric about them is FOR them. However for some reason...I really don't know why. A high WL without the proper training or experience is seen as fine. QuoteSomeone else (not you) had said something in support of who cares if it was appropriate or not, as long as it "helped". My example points out how for instance in the Hazelton, PA incident it would NOT be, and I think you agree with me on that. I agree that the PA accident WL did not fall into the proposed BSR... However I think that it DOES point out the serious lack of canopy training beyond the FJC...Some of which has been addressed by the ISP (Which is not being used at a large number of DZ's...that points out some serious flaws in the system). QuotePosting that a wingloading BSR COULD HAVE been a factor in preventing an incident, where that does appear to be FACT (ie: a 20-jump wonder pounding in under a 1.4 loading) is probably fine, and again I do not dispute that. However, it is NOT appropriate to post it to EVERY incident. Plain & simple. Get it now? Which is all I did on this one. Quote he had around ~400 jumps......A doctor on the scene estimated his weight at 180-190; that gives a loading of around 1.6 All I did was say: So here is one that might have been helped by the WL BSR. Then the shit storm started...I had no intention of starting the BSR thread there...But others did."No free man shall ever be debarred the use of arms." -- Thomas Jefferson, Thomas Jefferson Papers, 334 Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
freakydiver 0 #7 July 2, 2003 All I can say is whatever to the wingloading BSRs. Whatever to morons who downsize too fast. I'm looking out for my own ass on the DZ this weekend (I wish I could really incoporate that sentiment into my everyday thought processes). Like Ron said - "All I did was say: So here is one that might have been helped by the WL BSR." I just do not understand how that is bad in any way? Forget it. I don't care anymore. I figure if I keep telling myself that meself will eventually buy into not caring anymore about friends dying (I wish). -- (N.DG) "If all else fails – at least try and look under control." -- Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Scrumpot 1 #8 July 2, 2003 Hey beav... (per your profile) Don't go down that trail. Methinks you were merely missing my point. Let's step out to the extreme here for an illustration: You said: QuoteIf it raises awareness for just one more person that it sure as shit is helpful... And my point was only that although this may be true, it is not necessarily appropriate in the context under which it was offered. Let's say (again going EXTREMELY OUTSIDE THE BOX here) in every incident thread that comes up, even if it WASN'T a factor -I came out & said something about RSL's. Would that raise anybody's awareness of an RSL or get them to think about it? Maybe. But would it be APPROPRIATE? -Nope. That's all. I could aslo suggest in everything I write that running with scissors is bad, ---or more timely to the date now that playing with fireworks is dangerous, but I would NOT post that in "EVERY" thread! I know I was getting extremely piccaune, and trust me, I meant no offense. The debate is valid (and VALUABLE). Just not in the incidents thread, on EVERY CASE is all. -THAT, and ONLY THAT was my point. Hang in there bro. And keep the faith. Blues, -Grantcoitus non circum - Moab Stone Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
freakydiver 0 #9 July 2, 2003 Thanks for getting that I was being a tad bit fasicious(sp? even remotely close??). I hear yah and agree which cha... Faith will be kept. Blue ones! -- (N.DG) "If all else fails – at least try and look under control." -- Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
