Genn 0 #1 June 28, 2003 Bill, While reading the safety section on this site, I came across a 'suggested' emergency procedure during a canopy collision. It states; "If you find yourself entangled with another parachute, the general rule of thumb is that the lower person has the right to perform emergency procedures first." I have many questions about this suggestion. Can you first confirm that this is not a typo first, please? Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
quade 4 #2 June 28, 2003 QuoteIt states; "If you find yourself entangled with another parachute, the general rule of thumb is that the lower person has the right to perform emergency procedures first." Think about it for a minute and it makes sense -- well, most of the time. Let's say you and another person had a canopy wrap. The other person's canopy is wrapped around your body and there is a line or two that is wrapped around your head and neck. If you are the high person and cutaway, it probably only makes things worse. If the lower person cuts away, then he's free and clear of the mess and the tension of the canopy and lines on you pretty much goes away. Doesn't -exactly- solve your problem, but makes the situation a bit beter and gives you a better chance at unwrapping things. Obviously everything is dependent upon the situation.quade - The World's Most Boring Skydiver Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Genn 0 #3 June 28, 2003 Actually, is doesn't make sense as a 'rule of thumb'...granted, each situation is independent of eachother. However, In CRW the 'general rule of thumb' is the opposite-or so I was taught by many different sources. Entaglements almost always require both persons to cutaway. I thought that if the bottom person releases his lines first..the risers can recoil upward and wrap the other person. When the top person releases first, he may impact the bottom person on the way by, but wont have much momentum. The top person is usually the person who passed through the lines of the bottom person,, and, many times his canopy will put itself out of the mess after it is released. That is good for the bottom person. Many times entanglements begin to spin, and one person will be hanging downward while the other one is orbiting the entanglement. Obviously, this spin may accelerate rapidly. In that situation the orbiter should cutaway first. That will toss the orbiter clear of the entanglement and does not alter the other person's orientation to the entanglement. If the jumper who is hanging downward releases first, it can cause the orbiter to change orientation to the mess and could make the matters worse...?? Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
quade 4 #4 June 28, 2003 Obviously there are dangers in both scenarios. HERE is the official word from the USPA. I believe that as a generality they lean toward the lower jumper cutting away as long as the higher jumper is ready. I can't honestly say don't remember ever seeing the higher jumper cutaway first in any of the situations I've seen.quade - The World's Most Boring Skydiver Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Genn 0 #5 June 28, 2003 QuoteObviously there are dangers in both scenarios.Quote Definitely. I believe that as a generality they lean toward the lower jumper cutting away as long as the higher jumper is ready.Quote I don't think it's very clear. I interpret as them leaning towards the top jumper cutting away first...as long as they communicate and are ready. I'm going to have to do more research on this subject now. I'm disturbed by the conflicting "rules of thumb" Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites Genn 0 #6 June 28, 2003 QuoteLet's say you and another person had a canopy wrap. The other person's canopy is wrapped around your body and there is a line or two that is wrapped around your head and neck. If you are the high person and cutaway, it probably only makes things worse. If the lower person cuts away, then he's free and clear of the mess and the tension of the canopy and lines on you pretty much goes away. Doesn't -exactly- solve your problem, but makes the situation a bit beter and gives you a better chance at unwrapping things. That completely makes sense to me. To relieve the tension...but that seems more like a wrap scenario to me???...Where the 'general rule of thumb' is the bottom jumper releases first. (I'd like to know as much info as possible on this subject.) Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites Gadget 0 #7 June 28, 2003 You're assuming that both jumpers are free of any of each other but have the canopys entangled, in most cases one ( mostly always the topjumper) is wrapped in the bottums parachute and whould make the situation worse by cutting first.Remember he is the one with a good canopy above his headIf people from Poland are called Poles, why aren't people from Holland called Holes??? My logbook Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites Genn 0 #8 June 29, 2003 I'm not talking about wraps, I'm talking about entanglements and the confilcting suggested emergency procedures. Each situation is different, I know. But after reading the emergency section of this website, I'm more interested in the 'general rule of thumb'. I.E....quades example sounds more like a wrap to me, where the 'rule' would be that the bottom jumper releases first. Of course, there are many options to that scenario...like cutting the line that is wrapped around the person or giving a little brakes or rear riser imput to relieve tension...but I want to know why a student would be taught that in the event of a canopy collision involving an entanglement that the bottom jumper should cutaway first...I disagree and think the top person should cutaway first. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites faulknerwn 38 #9 June 30, 2003 I think a lot of non-CRWdogs aren't understanding the distinction between a wrap and an entanglement. Normally in a wrap, the top person will still have a good canopy, while the bottom guy's canopy is wrapped around the top guy. This is where the bottom guy cuts away first. An entanglement is where one person has passed through the other person's lines - its a completely different situation as Genn explained above. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites billvon 3,107 #10 June 30, 2003 > "If you find yourself entangled with another parachute, the general > rule of thumb is that the lower person has the right to perform > emergency procedures first." >I have many questions about this suggestion. Can you first confirm >that this is not a typo first, please? Nope, not a typo. In an entanglement, the lower jumper is usually the jumper most free of the entanglement. He will generally have a better view of the problem (and thus be able to make a better decision) and have a better chance of cutting away cleanly. This is good for a few reasons. One, it potentially saves his life (one fatality is better than two.) Two, it unloads the lines of the upper jumper's parachute, making it easier for the second person to deal with the remaining problems. I used to recommend always talking out who will do what. But if two HP parachutes collide below 2000 feet, there is very, very little time to decide what to do. A very fast "I'm cutting away!" "OK!" is about all the conversation you have time for - if that. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites relyon 0 #11 July 1, 2003 QuoteNope, not a typo. In an entanglement, the lower jumper is usually the jumper most free of the entanglement. He will generally have a better view of the problem (and thus be able to make a better decision) and have a better chance of cutting away cleanly. This is good for a few reasons. One, it potentially saves his life (one fatality is better than two.) Two, it unloads the lines of the upper jumper's parachute, making it easier for the second person to deal with the remaining problems. But it will leave the formerly higher jumper with a ball of shit in the lines above their head, most likely out of reach. The downplane potential of the mess means there is a gauranteed second chop. I've been in this scenario more times than I'd prefer and my experience is the higher jumper cuts away first. Many times the released higher canopy will clear the lower resulting in only one reserve ride. Of course, avoiding canopy collisions in the first place is good plan too. Bob Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites Genn 0 #12 July 1, 2003 QuoteNope, not a typo. I think that's really unfortunate given the amout of inexperienced and student skydivers on this website. They rely of getting accurate information so that in an emergency situation situation they will have a plan and execute it. QuoteIn an entanglement, the lower jumper is usually the jumper most free of the entanglement. He will generally have a better view of the problem (and thus be able to make a better decision) and have a better chance of cutting away cleanly. Yes, he will have a better chance of cutting away cleanly...but that is selfish thinking..The bottom jumper is just making the situation extremely worse for the top jumper with more lines, risers, just a great big mess. QuoteThis is good for a few reasons. One, it potentially saves his life (one fatality is better than two.) How about: Zero fatalities is better than one. Research done in Deland has shown that in entanglements, the top guy releases first. Many test jumps were made and Mike Lewis concluded that the top person should release first. This gives both jumpers a better chance of surviving. Also, this practice is used currently in CRW and experience has shown this to be true. QuoteTwo, it unloads the lines of the upper jumper's parachute, making it easier for the second person to deal with the remaining problems. I don't understand how you came to this conclusion. Please explain? QuoteI used to recommend always talking out who will do what. But if two HP parachutes collide below 2000 feet, there is very, very little time to decide what to do. A very fast "I'm cutting away!" "OK!" is about all the conversation you have time for - if that. Yes, communication is key. However, my SO and good friend were in an entanglement screaming past 2000'....Proper emergency procedures were taken, and they both lived. I wouldn't want to imagine what would have happened if the bottom guy said: Hey, C-ya...1 fatality is better than 2! Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites DJL 235 #13 July 1, 2003 Hey, this may be my uneducated view but it seems to me that low altitude high performance entanglements are different than large square canopy entanglements. A Lightning will still fly with another canopy and pilot strung through the lines but hp entanglements will turn into orbiters and spinning/diving canopies in a blink. Any thoughts from anyone about whether these should be dealt with by different methods?"I encourage all awesome dangerous behavior." - Jeffro Fincher Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites Genn 0 #14 July 1, 2003 My SO was jumping his stiletto at the time....not his CRW canopy....it was at a low altitude after a freefall jump. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites faulknerwn 38 #15 July 1, 2003 Quote> One, it potentially saves his life (one fatality is better than two.) Two, it unloads the lines of the upper jumper's parachute, making it easier for the second person to deal with the remaining problems. If they're actually entangled (not wrapped - big difference) then if the bottom guy cuts away first then he's probably going to assure the other guy's fatality. By cutting away - the other guy is now left without a good main, and your lines and canopy wrapped around him. If you let him chop first, then you both have a much better chance of survival. I'd rather see 0 fatalities than 1. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites HRHSkyPrincess 0 #16 July 2, 2003 BINGO! THE FIRST THING YOU NEED TO DO IN A CANOPY COLLISION IS NOTE THE ALTITUDE AND COMMUNICATE! If one jumper is wrapped he/she may not be able to see his/her altimeter so it is vital to communicate the altitude. Communicate with positive statements/commands only. Communicate and save each other's life. Review canopy collision procedures while still on the ground... :)***************** Attitude is everything! Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites HRHSkyPrincess 0 #17 July 2, 2003 Listen up non-CReW Skydivers, this person is an EXPERT. I downloaded and printed her 'cheat sheet' for CReW. Thanks, Wendy. I am but a mere CReW puppy. You ARE the CReW Goddess!!!***************** Attitude is everything! Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites PhillyKev 0 #18 July 2, 2003 I'm confused. Could you more clearly define the difference between entanglement and wrap? In your example you're talking about an entanglement, then go on to say the lines and canopy wrapped around the other guy. I thought that would be a wrap? I thought a wrap is when someone is wrapped by the canopy, and in that case the low jumper should cut away. And an entanglement would be when the parachutes are tangled together but the canopy and lines aren't around a person? Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites faulknerwn 38 #19 July 2, 2003 A wrap is where one person's parachute is wrapped around another person's body. The top person usually has a good parachute, which is why its best for the bottom person to cutaway first because the top person quite probably has a landable main. An entanglement might be the result of a head-on collision for example. One person has passed through the other person's lines. Normally neither person has a good parachute in this situation. There are several probable results of this: 1. 1 person is orbiting and 1 person is hanging straight down. The orbiter would here cutaway first because he would get flung free. 2. If both are kinda straight down, the top person cuts away first. Since he's probably the one who passed through the other person's lines, there's a chance his parachute will go back out the way it came and save the other person a cutaway. Also - if the bottom person cuts away first here - his lines and risers are going up and wrapping around the other person. This leaves the other person without a good canopy, and entangled in lines and risers. His future is looking pretty ugly. That's why there's a difference in who cuts away first - it all depends on whether someone has passed through the lines of the other canopy - because that's usually a deciding factor on whether the top person has a good canopy or not. W Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites PhillyKev 0 #20 July 2, 2003 gotcha...thanks. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites Join the conversation You can post now and register later. If you have an account, sign in now to post with your account. Note: Your post will require moderator approval before it will be visible. Reply to this topic... × Pasted as rich text. Paste as plain text instead Only 75 emoji are allowed. × Your link has been automatically embedded. 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Genn 0 #6 June 28, 2003 QuoteLet's say you and another person had a canopy wrap. The other person's canopy is wrapped around your body and there is a line or two that is wrapped around your head and neck. If you are the high person and cutaway, it probably only makes things worse. If the lower person cuts away, then he's free and clear of the mess and the tension of the canopy and lines on you pretty much goes away. Doesn't -exactly- solve your problem, but makes the situation a bit beter and gives you a better chance at unwrapping things. That completely makes sense to me. To relieve the tension...but that seems more like a wrap scenario to me???...Where the 'general rule of thumb' is the bottom jumper releases first. (I'd like to know as much info as possible on this subject.) Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Gadget 0 #7 June 28, 2003 You're assuming that both jumpers are free of any of each other but have the canopys entangled, in most cases one ( mostly always the topjumper) is wrapped in the bottums parachute and whould make the situation worse by cutting first.Remember he is the one with a good canopy above his headIf people from Poland are called Poles, why aren't people from Holland called Holes??? My logbook Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Genn 0 #8 June 29, 2003 I'm not talking about wraps, I'm talking about entanglements and the confilcting suggested emergency procedures. Each situation is different, I know. But after reading the emergency section of this website, I'm more interested in the 'general rule of thumb'. I.E....quades example sounds more like a wrap to me, where the 'rule' would be that the bottom jumper releases first. Of course, there are many options to that scenario...like cutting the line that is wrapped around the person or giving a little brakes or rear riser imput to relieve tension...but I want to know why a student would be taught that in the event of a canopy collision involving an entanglement that the bottom jumper should cutaway first...I disagree and think the top person should cutaway first. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
faulknerwn 38 #9 June 30, 2003 I think a lot of non-CRWdogs aren't understanding the distinction between a wrap and an entanglement. Normally in a wrap, the top person will still have a good canopy, while the bottom guy's canopy is wrapped around the top guy. This is where the bottom guy cuts away first. An entanglement is where one person has passed through the other person's lines - its a completely different situation as Genn explained above. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
billvon 3,107 #10 June 30, 2003 > "If you find yourself entangled with another parachute, the general > rule of thumb is that the lower person has the right to perform > emergency procedures first." >I have many questions about this suggestion. Can you first confirm >that this is not a typo first, please? Nope, not a typo. In an entanglement, the lower jumper is usually the jumper most free of the entanglement. He will generally have a better view of the problem (and thus be able to make a better decision) and have a better chance of cutting away cleanly. This is good for a few reasons. One, it potentially saves his life (one fatality is better than two.) Two, it unloads the lines of the upper jumper's parachute, making it easier for the second person to deal with the remaining problems. I used to recommend always talking out who will do what. But if two HP parachutes collide below 2000 feet, there is very, very little time to decide what to do. A very fast "I'm cutting away!" "OK!" is about all the conversation you have time for - if that. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
relyon 0 #11 July 1, 2003 QuoteNope, not a typo. In an entanglement, the lower jumper is usually the jumper most free of the entanglement. He will generally have a better view of the problem (and thus be able to make a better decision) and have a better chance of cutting away cleanly. This is good for a few reasons. One, it potentially saves his life (one fatality is better than two.) Two, it unloads the lines of the upper jumper's parachute, making it easier for the second person to deal with the remaining problems. But it will leave the formerly higher jumper with a ball of shit in the lines above their head, most likely out of reach. The downplane potential of the mess means there is a gauranteed second chop. I've been in this scenario more times than I'd prefer and my experience is the higher jumper cuts away first. Many times the released higher canopy will clear the lower resulting in only one reserve ride. Of course, avoiding canopy collisions in the first place is good plan too. Bob Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Genn 0 #12 July 1, 2003 QuoteNope, not a typo. I think that's really unfortunate given the amout of inexperienced and student skydivers on this website. They rely of getting accurate information so that in an emergency situation situation they will have a plan and execute it. QuoteIn an entanglement, the lower jumper is usually the jumper most free of the entanglement. He will generally have a better view of the problem (and thus be able to make a better decision) and have a better chance of cutting away cleanly. Yes, he will have a better chance of cutting away cleanly...but that is selfish thinking..The bottom jumper is just making the situation extremely worse for the top jumper with more lines, risers, just a great big mess. QuoteThis is good for a few reasons. One, it potentially saves his life (one fatality is better than two.) How about: Zero fatalities is better than one. Research done in Deland has shown that in entanglements, the top guy releases first. Many test jumps were made and Mike Lewis concluded that the top person should release first. This gives both jumpers a better chance of surviving. Also, this practice is used currently in CRW and experience has shown this to be true. QuoteTwo, it unloads the lines of the upper jumper's parachute, making it easier for the second person to deal with the remaining problems. I don't understand how you came to this conclusion. Please explain? QuoteI used to recommend always talking out who will do what. But if two HP parachutes collide below 2000 feet, there is very, very little time to decide what to do. A very fast "I'm cutting away!" "OK!" is about all the conversation you have time for - if that. Yes, communication is key. However, my SO and good friend were in an entanglement screaming past 2000'....Proper emergency procedures were taken, and they both lived. I wouldn't want to imagine what would have happened if the bottom guy said: Hey, C-ya...1 fatality is better than 2! Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
DJL 235 #13 July 1, 2003 Hey, this may be my uneducated view but it seems to me that low altitude high performance entanglements are different than large square canopy entanglements. A Lightning will still fly with another canopy and pilot strung through the lines but hp entanglements will turn into orbiters and spinning/diving canopies in a blink. Any thoughts from anyone about whether these should be dealt with by different methods?"I encourage all awesome dangerous behavior." - Jeffro Fincher Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Genn 0 #14 July 1, 2003 My SO was jumping his stiletto at the time....not his CRW canopy....it was at a low altitude after a freefall jump. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
faulknerwn 38 #15 July 1, 2003 Quote> One, it potentially saves his life (one fatality is better than two.) Two, it unloads the lines of the upper jumper's parachute, making it easier for the second person to deal with the remaining problems. If they're actually entangled (not wrapped - big difference) then if the bottom guy cuts away first then he's probably going to assure the other guy's fatality. By cutting away - the other guy is now left without a good main, and your lines and canopy wrapped around him. If you let him chop first, then you both have a much better chance of survival. I'd rather see 0 fatalities than 1. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
HRHSkyPrincess 0 #16 July 2, 2003 BINGO! THE FIRST THING YOU NEED TO DO IN A CANOPY COLLISION IS NOTE THE ALTITUDE AND COMMUNICATE! If one jumper is wrapped he/she may not be able to see his/her altimeter so it is vital to communicate the altitude. Communicate with positive statements/commands only. Communicate and save each other's life. Review canopy collision procedures while still on the ground... :)***************** Attitude is everything! Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
HRHSkyPrincess 0 #17 July 2, 2003 Listen up non-CReW Skydivers, this person is an EXPERT. I downloaded and printed her 'cheat sheet' for CReW. Thanks, Wendy. I am but a mere CReW puppy. You ARE the CReW Goddess!!!***************** Attitude is everything! Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
PhillyKev 0 #18 July 2, 2003 I'm confused. Could you more clearly define the difference between entanglement and wrap? In your example you're talking about an entanglement, then go on to say the lines and canopy wrapped around the other guy. I thought that would be a wrap? I thought a wrap is when someone is wrapped by the canopy, and in that case the low jumper should cut away. And an entanglement would be when the parachutes are tangled together but the canopy and lines aren't around a person? Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
faulknerwn 38 #19 July 2, 2003 A wrap is where one person's parachute is wrapped around another person's body. The top person usually has a good parachute, which is why its best for the bottom person to cutaway first because the top person quite probably has a landable main. An entanglement might be the result of a head-on collision for example. One person has passed through the other person's lines. Normally neither person has a good parachute in this situation. There are several probable results of this: 1. 1 person is orbiting and 1 person is hanging straight down. The orbiter would here cutaway first because he would get flung free. 2. If both are kinda straight down, the top person cuts away first. Since he's probably the one who passed through the other person's lines, there's a chance his parachute will go back out the way it came and save the other person a cutaway. Also - if the bottom person cuts away first here - his lines and risers are going up and wrapping around the other person. This leaves the other person without a good canopy, and entangled in lines and risers. His future is looking pretty ugly. That's why there's a difference in who cuts away first - it all depends on whether someone has passed through the lines of the other canopy - because that's usually a deciding factor on whether the top person has a good canopy or not. W Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
PhillyKev 0 #20 July 2, 2003 gotcha...thanks. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
