kallend 2,146 #1 July 16, 2003 I was at Cross Keys on the big ways last weekend. I thought that on average, the tracking of the participants sucked. For everyone in a decent flat track there were probably 5 just diving away. In my quadrant I saw only a handful who really tracked a long way (like Gary McGuinness and Raider Ramstad). Some of the worst offenders were the old-timers.... The only sure way to survive a canopy collision is not to have one. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
PhillyKev 0 #2 July 16, 2003 Watching it from the ground and comparing to the 108 way last year, it seems that there was not nearly as much separation at opening time. Also, wasn't there a tracking collision on the last jump? I know someone was on the ground for awhile after landing and heard that she had the wind knocked out of her in a tracking collision. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
billvon 3,107 #3 July 16, 2003 >I thought that on average, the tracking of the participants sucked. Yep. I remember tracking off and seeing most of the rest of the formation drop beneath me. Good for me (I could see just about everyone) but bad for the people beneath me. Not only were there a lot of people not tracking far, but there were a good many who were _delta_ tracking. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
tbrown 26 #4 July 17, 2003 I've noticed that there are some DZ's where people just don't seem to have the hang of a proper track. Saw a 50+ attempt that had the most scarifying head down delta breakoff, people basically dove past deploying canopies until the sky had thinned out enough for them to dump. I wanted to speak up about it, but this was during my years out of the sport and I didn't feel I had any credibility with these people. A good track is a rush. If you're doing it right you should feel like you've been shot out of a cannon, it makes you want to scream like a rebel. The sheer pleasure, if not the enhanced safety, should make working on one's track worthwile. Your humble servant.....Professor Gravity ! Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Squeak 17 #5 July 17, 2003 I apparently have a pretty decent FLAT trak, I loose very little alti compared to other arpound me, but simarly most ppl on the 8 & 10 ways I was on last week tracked DOWN not out. As a newbie in this sport i must say that no one really emphsises tracking at the DZ I go to, I'm fortunate that my track is decent to start with (probably not good, but better than some other with more time).You are not now, nor will you ever be, good enough to not die in this sport (Sparky) My Life ROCKS! How's yours doing? Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Tonto 1 #6 July 17, 2003 It's practice. Most people don't practice that stuff. tIt's the year of the Pig. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
grega 0 #7 July 17, 2003 QuoteA good track is a rush. If you're doing it right you should feel like you've been shot out of a cannon, it makes you want to scream like a rebel. The sheer pleasure, if not the enhanced safety, should make working on one's track worthwile. The only problem is that when done properly it's so gooooood you don't wanna open your canopy just yet. And you can get a "little low" while enjoying in tracking "George just lucky i guess!" Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
nacmacfeegle 0 #8 July 17, 2003 "Most people don't practice that stuff." Or they are in denial about their own abilities. When the Brit100 stuff was going on, most participants were 'encouraged' to go on at least one tracking dive. They are fun, and let you know just exactly how well you can, or more importantly, cannot track. -------------------- He who receives an idea from me, receives instruction himself without lessening mine; as he who lights his taper at mine, receives light without darkening me. Thomas Jefferson Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
vt1977 0 #9 July 17, 2003 OK - I love tracking and it is something that I have tried very hard to work on both because it is a survival skill and because it is good fun. I've been told that my tracking is good and flat, but let's face it, there is always room to improve! Now aside from body position (rolling shoulders, de-arching etc) and thinking about tracking towards just above the horizon what other tips would you give someone who wants to learn to track faster and flatter? Vicki Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
nacmacfeegle 0 #10 July 17, 2003 "what other tips would you give someone who wants to learn to track faster and flatter?" Have a chat with some freefliers and go on some tracking dives....-------------------- He who receives an idea from me, receives instruction himself without lessening mine; as he who lights his taper at mine, receives light without darkening me. Thomas Jefferson Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Ron 10 #11 July 17, 2003 QuoteHave a chat with some freefliers and go on some tracking dives... The tracking dives I have been on I had to use a delta to stay with them....If I used a max flat track they fell away from me. So maybe the best way to practice is just do a solo, and really work the body position. FWIW...I don't do a "Perfect" track....I keep my head up so I can see where I am going....Not perfect, but safer. Ron"No free man shall ever be debarred the use of arms." -- Thomas Jefferson, Thomas Jefferson Papers, 334 Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
nacmacfeegle 0 #12 July 17, 2003 "The tracking dives I have been on I had to use a delta to stay with them....If I used a max flat track they fell away from me." Way to go Ron, at least you had a reference...... "So maybe the best way to practice is just do a solo, and really work the body position." Or a two way track with somone wearing camera?-------------------- He who receives an idea from me, receives instruction himself without lessening mine; as he who lights his taper at mine, receives light without darkening me. Thomas Jefferson Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
jerry81 10 #13 July 17, 2003 QuoteQuoteA good track is a rush. If you're doing it right you should feel like you've been shot out of a cannon, it makes you want to scream like a rebel. The sheer pleasure, if not the enhanced safety, should make working on one's track worthwile. The only problem is that when done properly it's so gooooood you don't wanna open your canopy just yet. And you can get a "little low" while enjoying in tracking Exactly how I feel about it. We should have a tracking/low-pulling contest sometime. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
kallend 2,146 #14 July 17, 2003 Quote"what other tips would you give someone who wants to learn to track faster and flatter?" Have a chat with some freefliers and go on some tracking dives.... The freefly tracking dives I've been on were not very flat. More a social event than survival skill.... The only sure way to survive a canopy collision is not to have one. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
quade 4 #15 July 17, 2003 Yeah, the main object on -most- tracking dives is to fly in formation rather than to see how far you can go -- two quite different things. That said, somebody with very few tracking skills can help bring them up by joining in on a tracking dive. Most that I've been on start out quite easy and then progressively get more difficult as the dive goes on. Sometimes the leader will really turn it on in the last half of the skydive, so that helps people push themselves and learn at least a bit more about flying forward faster.quade - The World's Most Boring Skydiver Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
petetheladd 0 #16 July 17, 2003 Quote"what other tips would you give someone who wants to learn to track faster and flatter?" Have a chat with some freefliers and go on some tracking dives.... lie on your back on the ground, hands by your sides, palms up. now, keeping your legs straight, lift your legs up about 1 foot and hold it there. roll the shoulders Feel that strain(stomach), thats how it should feel in the air when maxing out your flat track. This is another area which is neglected these days along with proper plfs No, Not without incident Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
kallend 2,146 #17 July 17, 2003 QuoteQuoteHave a chat with some freefliers and go on some tracking dives... The tracking dives I have been on I had to use a delta to stay with them....If I used a max flat track they fell away from me. So maybe the best way to practice is just do a solo, and really work the body position. FWIW...I don't do a "Perfect" track....I keep my head up so I can see where I am going....Not perfect, but safer. Ron Why do you need to see where you're going? You only have 4 others in the air with you and the cameraman takes the middle. Actually you make a good point, and on bigger skydives where there are lots of others in the air this is an issue. I find that it takes about 5 seconds of head up tracking until I am clear of obstacles and can put my head down. I can then look back past my feet at the breakoff which is usually a neat sight. On the 120 ways at X-Keys breakoff was at 6k and I was tracking to 2200ft. This took about 30 seconds on all the jumps according to ProTrak, which averages out to 86mph fall rate during the track. At Z Hills last Easter we broke off at 5500, but I think the tracking was, on average, better.... The only sure way to survive a canopy collision is not to have one. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
freakydiver 0 #18 July 17, 2003 Why not tell them as opposed to the discussion forum then? Just curious as to what your goal in telling us that the group you were jumping with couldn't track - although I do agree with you that the quality of tracking seems to be going downhill most places I jump. My only point here is that they should be told to work on their track or perhaps you shouldn't jump with them. -- (N.DG) "If all else fails – at least try and look under control." -- Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
vt1977 0 #19 July 17, 2003 QuoteQuote"what other tips would you give someone who wants to learn to track faster and flatter?" Have a chat with some freefliers and go on some tracking dives.... The freefly tracking dives I've been on were not very flat. More a social event than survival skill. I’ve been on a few tracking dives and found that they felt pretty slow and not particularly flat. I’m not unhappy with my tracking atm, but there is always room for improvement and I am interested to hear tips from people who do a lot of big ways on how to get away further, faster and flatter! Vicki Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Ron 10 #20 July 17, 2003 QuoteWhy do you need to see where you're going? You only have 4 others in the air with you and the cameraman takes the middle. I know you are joking here John. However, I look up not to avoid MY group, but the OTHER groups on the plane. I look around during my track for the guys on my group, the guys that left before me, and the group that left after me. On a big way you only have to worry about YOUR big ass group. Most of them will be on the same level (Or so we hope), and moving in the same direction (again we hope). But on a small way (Like 4way) there are several groups, several different levels, and different tracking directions. I only MAX track on a full plane formation. I keep my head up on anything else. But its not like I have to track like hell from a 4way. I do think most peoples tracks suck. There is not enough talk about it. PD starts its canopy classes with tracking....I used to find that funny, later I found out why. Ron"No free man shall ever be debarred the use of arms." -- Thomas Jefferson, Thomas Jefferson Papers, 334 Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
kallend 2,146 #21 July 17, 2003 QuoteWhy not tell them as opposed to the discussion forum then? Just curious as to what your goal in telling us that the group you were jumping with couldn't track - although I do agree with you that the quality of tracking seems to be going downhill most places I jump. My only point here is that they should be told to work on their track or perhaps you shouldn't jump with them. It was mentioned several times at the dirt dives by the organizers. I bring it up here because, as you wrote, it seems to be a more general issue, and this is the appropriate forum for safety issues.... The only sure way to survive a canopy collision is not to have one. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
SkymonkeyONE 4 #22 July 17, 2003 I have been on plenty of "new" tracking dives and have had to fly very dirty on every single one of them in my comp bootie suit to stay with the lead tracker. I have yet to meet the "new school" freefly guy who can out track an experiened jumper in his or her bootie suit. Generally, I can easily fly to the front and take a dock on the front guy while still easily maintaining the pace and fall rate. The great majority of BirdMan flocks are the same; most people fly dirty to stay together because that's the point. Chuck Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
ChasingBlueSky 0 #23 July 17, 2003 QuoteQuoteWhy not tell them as opposed to the discussion forum then? Just curious as to what your goal in telling us that the group you were jumping with couldn't track - although I do agree with you that the quality of tracking seems to be going downhill most places I jump. My only point here is that they should be told to work on their track or perhaps you shouldn't jump with them. It was mentioned several times at the dirt dives by the organizers. I bring it up here because, as you wrote, it seems to be a more general issue, and this is the appropriate forum for safety issues. My average fall rate (before my current weight loss)on my belly used to be 125-130 and I would always find myself low on the formation. However, I found it sad that I would float up on a majority of the people I jumped with during my track. It seems to me that most people believe their booties are all they need to be a good fast, flat tracker, yet I think most of these people end up in the delta position the quickest. There is someone at the DZ that is always pushing me to be a better tracker, always racing me at breakoff and showing me I can always get flater and faster. Under canopy my body is a bit sore from pushing my track as much as possible. Too bad Kallend has me beat on the body size department - I'd love to race him, but my slowest track was about 99-100. I've seen John track, he is as flat, fast and floaty as he claims._________________________________________ you can burn the land and boil the sea, but you can't take the sky from me.... I WILL fly again..... Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
freakydiver 0 #24 July 17, 2003 Gotcha Kallend! Just wanted to make sure that the culprits where notified first and foremost. Time and time again I see and hear people after loads complaining about their seperation but never doing anything about it. -- (N.DG) "If all else fails – at least try and look under control." -- Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Zenister 0 #25 July 17, 2003 QuoteI have been on plenty of "new" tracking dives and have had to fly very dirty on every single one of them in my comp bootie suit to stay with the lead tracker. I have yet to meet the "new school" freefly guy who can out track an experiened jumper in his or her bootie suit. Generally, I can easily fly to the front and take a dock on the front guy while still easily maintaining the pace and fall rate. The great majority of BirdMan flocks are the same; most people fly dirty to stay together because that's the point. ooooh we got to put together a 'good tracks only' tracking dive during the Xmas boogie. your right though, the majority of tracking dives are social flocks usually inviting any and everyone, so the leader has to split the difference between flat and moving out and slow and delta so that everyone gets a chance to play together.. i've been on several nice 6-8 way tracking dives at Eloy with some great trackers.. FF & RW types.. they are lots more fun and challenging when you have to really focus on lift and drive as well as staying together.... its funny, but sort of sad, when you have 3 or 4 people flying daffy in the middle of your tracking dive I think on average FFers get spoiled tracking since you dont have to be as efficient to get good separation when you break off from HD speeds.. ps. booties are cheating on tracking dives____________________________________ Those who fail to learn from the past are simply Doomed. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
