Steel 0
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quade 4
Ya know, I thought I'd never see a post in which Steel and I agreed on anything let alone some aspects of canopy training. 
I'd also like to add there there is a huge dichotomy in the area of canopy training. When most people think of canopy control classes they automatically think of the high-speed end of things, when I personally believe that most people would be far better off and much more safe by at least beginning to think about the slow-speed aspects first.
Some of what Steel just said is valid about survival in the sport being a risk and skill equation. I'd also add that it's also a matter of judgment.
He's also pretty much on the mark about some of the quality of instruction and instructors. Some instructors fly like birds. Birds don't have a freekin' clue about anything such as density-altitude, wing design or stall speeds -- it's pretty much all instinct.
Mankind, however, was never meant to fly and only does so because of intellect and an understanding of aerodynamics.
I've seen some people give advice about canopy control that scares the crap out of me. While they may be able to pull off a pretty long and fast swoop, often I find myself looking at their swoop and wondering how long it's going to be before they plow a 100 foot long furrow in the grass. The reason is that they're almost constantly digging themselves out of the corner with their toggles.
On the other hand, there are, in fact some people that not only swoop well, but also have a pretty complete understanding of the aerodynamics behind it.
Having to choose between the two, I'd take the wisdom and advice of the more informed instructor every time.
I'd also like to add there there is a huge dichotomy in the area of canopy training. When most people think of canopy control classes they automatically think of the high-speed end of things, when I personally believe that most people would be far better off and much more safe by at least beginning to think about the slow-speed aspects first.
Some of what Steel just said is valid about survival in the sport being a risk and skill equation. I'd also add that it's also a matter of judgment.
He's also pretty much on the mark about some of the quality of instruction and instructors. Some instructors fly like birds. Birds don't have a freekin' clue about anything such as density-altitude, wing design or stall speeds -- it's pretty much all instinct.
Mankind, however, was never meant to fly and only does so because of intellect and an understanding of aerodynamics.
I've seen some people give advice about canopy control that scares the crap out of me. While they may be able to pull off a pretty long and fast swoop, often I find myself looking at their swoop and wondering how long it's going to be before they plow a 100 foot long furrow in the grass. The reason is that they're almost constantly digging themselves out of the corner with their toggles.
On the other hand, there are, in fact some people that not only swoop well, but also have a pretty complete understanding of the aerodynamics behind it.
Having to choose between the two, I'd take the wisdom and advice of the more informed instructor every time.
quade -
The World's Most Boring Skydiver
The World's Most Boring Skydiver
kallend 2,146
Quote
Since I am a pilot I can tell you how density altitude will affect your landing? How Bernouli's principal is what keeps your canopy flying?
Bernoulli's principle is an explanation of lift, not its cause.
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The only sure way to survive a canopy collision is not to have one.
The only sure way to survive a canopy collision is not to have one.
I was at 1.4 at a hundred jumps and have landed my shit in all sorts of conditions. Bottomline? I had people in my close group of skydiving buddies that actually liked to dump high and screw around under canopy and I really got to know my canopy fast. I never hurt myself once (came damn close after freaking out after getting cut off, but dealt with it rather well imho).
I think the problem is people see hot shots swooping and just flat out do not realize that most of these people have 1000's of jumps to their credit. Most of them have injured themselves at least once.
Its funny how everything in the sport has progressed to keep pace with headdowners, safer rigs, louder audibles, lots and lots of coaching programs out there - where is the canopy equivelent. In my few years in the sport I'd personally say that canopies have progressed as fast as the flying skills of our overall community, but alas, most anyone can hop on one of these new hot shot canopies really rather easily and pound it in.
All in the name of looking cool. I say f@#$ cool - go learn about canopies first then look cool later.
-- (N.DG) "If all else fails – at least try and look under control." --
I think the problem is people see hot shots swooping and just flat out do not realize that most of these people have 1000's of jumps to their credit. Most of them have injured themselves at least once.
Its funny how everything in the sport has progressed to keep pace with headdowners, safer rigs, louder audibles, lots and lots of coaching programs out there - where is the canopy equivelent. In my few years in the sport I'd personally say that canopies have progressed as fast as the flying skills of our overall community, but alas, most anyone can hop on one of these new hot shot canopies really rather easily and pound it in.
All in the name of looking cool. I say f@#$ cool - go learn about canopies first then look cool later.
-- (N.DG) "If all else fails – at least try and look under control." --
Steel 0
Bernoulli's principle is an explanation of lift, not its cause.
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How is that different? To explain lift one must explain what causes it.
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How is that different? To explain lift one must explain what causes it.
If I could make a wish, I think I'd pass.
Can't think of anything I need
No cigarettes, no sleep, no light, no sound.
Nothing to eat, no books to read.
Can't think of anything I need
No cigarettes, no sleep, no light, no sound.
Nothing to eat, no books to read.
quade 4
Steel, remember "Monty Python and the Holy Grail?
Remember when the knights rode up to Camelot and looked at the castle? After the singing stopped one of them looked up and said, "It's only a model".
Same deal with the Newton or Bernoulli explanations of lift. They themselves are only useful models of how things work and not complete explanations.
Subtle difference to be sure to most people trying to understand it, but remember that Kallend is a professor and likes to split hairs on wording.
Remember when the knights rode up to Camelot and looked at the castle? After the singing stopped one of them looked up and said, "It's only a model".
Same deal with the Newton or Bernoulli explanations of lift. They themselves are only useful models of how things work and not complete explanations.
Subtle difference to be sure to most people trying to understand it, but remember that Kallend is a professor and likes to split hairs on wording.
quade -
The World's Most Boring Skydiver
The World's Most Boring Skydiver
Great response! I love freefall but I also LOVE being under canopy! I try to get at least one 3500 H&P every few weeks just becaue I love the rush, (and it re-enforces importance of flying right out of the door) But I'd love to dump at 12K and just play with my canopy flying skills. (Not just a cross country which I'd also love to do!)
SMA#18
SMA#18
lazyfrog 0
Quote"Why the hell aren't people getting intense canopy training? "
Because once people get their license all they care about is learning RW or Freeflying and don't care about what happens under canopy.
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this is sadly true...
did the course in empuriabrava and was great. learned to fly on risers, do my final approach on front risers, then 45 degree turn and 90 degree turn on front before landing... the lift you get is incredible, even with my old sabre 150... now I got a new Saphire 139, and have to go through all this step by step...----------
Fumer tue, péter pue
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ourson #10, Mosquito Uno, CBT 579
betzilla 56
QuoteIt's cheaper than a busted femur too.
Amen Sister.
I'd LOVE to get some canopy training. There's nothing in the Midwest, though, so i'd have to sink $600 into a plane ticket just to take a course.
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It is when it goes to waste. Of course I will expand on that with a simple whuffo world experience. I am and MCSE (microsoft certified systems engineer). In order to get this certification one must pass 6 tests. The failure rate for each of these 6 tests was 70%, when I took them. that comes out to a little over 88% chance that you will not pass all six test, and hence not have your certification. I know countless people who have payed over $6K for a 2 month course geared toward passing these exams. More than 90% of those people never become MCSE's. I never took the course I bought books and passed all the tests through self study. This is not any different in learning languages or skydiving or anything for that matter. I failed high school Italian. I know people who aced it 4 years in a row. I speak Italian they don't.
Now back to canopy flying. Several times a year I watch the same people take the canopy courses whenever they are offered and I don't see them getting any better. I have even seen an instructor of the class plow in, the same day he taught the class on the sunset load, and then walk away and simply say, "I taught to do as I say not as I do". What a crock that was! The fact is this sport is full of self-proclaimed experts who are really better at politics than actual canopy flying.
Now to address what seems to be the most important for the majority of skydivers in reference to canopy flying, that being safety. My opinion is that safety in canopy flight is all about a simple ratio of x and y. X being how much risk you take and y being how much risk you can handle. Y depends on your talent (ability to remain calm under a stressful situation) experience (not to be confused with jump numbers or time in sport). X the risk you take is far far more complicated than the canopy or the wingloading you choose to fly. I am not saying these aren't factors. But a much more significant factor in my mind is the approach you make with what your flying. Still I believe its most important how you react when sh#t goes wrong.
So my conclusion is that being true to yourself as to what you can or can't handle is the key to survival. Meanwhile practice with your own personal desire to get better is the only way to improve your skills (increase Y or how much you can handle).
Bottomline is canopy flight is really not that complicated that it requires these very expensive classes. Since I am a pilot I can tell you how density altitude will affect your landing? How Bernouli's principal is what keeps your canopy flying? What is meant by a stall speed (Vs) and how significantly that can change by wingloading? Why an eliptical canopy will turn faster? Why a crossbraced canopy can tolerate a heavier load? Why an FX of the same squarefootage of a velocity will turn faster from the same input? But the bottomline is who cares? I know people in the pro circuit who can swoop further and carve more than me that don't know all these answers. And they don't have to. All they need to know is when, where and how to start their approach, how to maintain their canopy in an optimum dive through it. After that everything is fairly straight foward. Flying the rear risers then might require some skill but again this is something that can't be taught. You can get all the best instruction in the world and then go up and if you try it near the ground you will probably stall and slam. The only way to learn it is by doing it at altitude or temporarily jumping a bigger canopy and working your way down as I did.
Can't think of anything I need
No cigarettes, no sleep, no light, no sound.
Nothing to eat, no books to read.
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