AggieDave 6 #1 August 1, 2003 After some discussion in a different thread, I was wondering how exactly the USPA does inforce their BSRs. From what I gather, they basically don't/can't/won't, but then at that point what is the reasoning for having the DZ program and the BSRs in the first place? Also, if they do/could actively enforce the BSRs, what about situations where DZs are pushing the envolope for the betterment of the sport. Sort of like when Roger Nelson was using BOCs for AFF before they were "approved." He went to the USPA after having done it for a while, with a stack of videos that proved it worked and worked well, so it was approved for student use. At the time, from my understanding, that was violating the BSRs, but it was in a "good" way that helped advance our sport. Thoughts, comments?--"When I die, may I be surrounded by scattered chrome and burning gasoline." Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
billvon 3,123 #2 August 1, 2003 >From what I gather, they basically don't/can't/won't, but then at that >point what is the reasoning for having the DZ program and the BSRs > in the first place? Because many people do follow them and they save lives. Even voluntary 'rules' are useful; many DZO's voluntarily enforce them (i.e. if you keep pulling at 500 feet you get kicked off the DZ, even if there's no USPA cop there to write you a ticket.) I think that's a good thing; we do need a framework of recommendations so newer jumpers have some very basic safety rules, but at the same time I don't think we need USPA 'police.' It's always the 5% of DZ's who are assholes about the BSR's and the other 5% who neglect them completely that get all the attention, but they do a lot of good to that other 90% I think. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
SkydiverRick 0 #3 August 1, 2003 QuoteSort of like when Roger Nelson was using BOCs for AFF before they were "approved." He went to the USPA after having done it for a while, with a stack of videos that proved it worked and worked well, so it was approved for student use. At the time, from my understanding, that was violating the BSRs, but it was in a "good" way that helped advance our sport. Thoughts, comments? I was under the impression that Roger had a waiver for this. never pull low......unless you are Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Samurai136 0 #4 August 1, 2003 Read the front page of the SIM Legally, non-compliance w/ BSR's is not negligence, according to the USPA. Living in the midwest I have witnessed a few AFF instructors give their students canopy advice that freaked us out on the ground. Their response, "I learned that from Roger, back in the day, over at Sandwich." In my opinion it goes both ways; non-conventional thinking breaks new ground. (no pun) But there must be some self enforced adherence to the norm to deviate from it. Ken"Buttons aren't toys." - Trillian Ken Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
D22369 0 #5 August 1, 2003 There isnt anything USPA can do to a non uspa dz if they are not complient....... I dont know how many non-USPA drop zones everyone has been to, but I have been to quite a few.........with the exception of one, they all follow the BSR's quite closely and run clean operations ::: the above is only what I have seen, I havent been to all the non uspa dz's in the country .....YET!!! RoyThey say I suffer from insanity.... But I actually enjoy it. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
wmw999 2,595 #6 August 1, 2003 If a DZ only follows the BSR's because it's scared of enforcement, then it's not a place to go to. Just like a driver who only drives the speed limit because they're scared of a ticket -- they're always looking for the opportunity to do what they "really" want to do. If people follow the rules voluntarily, then the rules can be general guidelines, and have some room for interpretation. If the rules have to be enforced often, they they have to be more and more specific, and the cost of administering them goes up. Folks, quit looking for loopholes. Change the rules you don't like, so they can continue to be guidelines to good behavior. Wendy W.There is nothing more dangerous than breaking a basic safety rule and getting away with it. It removes fear of the consequences and builds false confidence. (tbrown) Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
AggieDave 6 #7 August 1, 2003 QuoteFolks, quit looking for loopholes That isn't the point I started this thread, though. This thread was started due to curiosity that was peaked in a different thread AND due to my not really seeing anything that the USPA is truely doing for me. Besides my monthly magazine...--"When I die, may I be surrounded by scattered chrome and burning gasoline." Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Ron 10 #8 August 1, 2003 QuoteThis thread was started due to curiosity that was peaked in a different thread AND due to my not really seeing anything that the USPA is truely doing for me. Besides my monthly magazine.. They do lobby for our rights to airspace. But if it were not for that, and the fact that there are a bunch of places that I could not jump WO the USPA card..I'd tell them to shove off. The USPA is mostly worthless...And they continue to show that they are worthless time after time. So I am a member just becuase they make me...Without that stupid little card I can't jump at a lot of cool DZ's."No free man shall ever be debarred the use of arms." -- Thomas Jefferson, Thomas Jefferson Papers, 334 Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Scrumpot 1 #9 August 1, 2003 QuoteThis thread was started due to curiosity that was peaked in a different thread AND due to my not really seeing anything that the USPA is truely doing for me. Besides my monthly magazine... Hmmm.... Is Aggie Dave "coming of age"? I'm thinking now of starting a thread: Aggie Dave Matures! ...Read all about it! Saliency in all of us from time to time it seems, rears it's ugly head! ---Keep on thinkin' & keep that mind a workin' bro. Let me know when you see yourself approaching any conclusions from all this. BS, -Grantcoitus non circum - Moab Stone Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
robskydiv 0 #10 August 1, 2003 Hi Dave. To answer your question, it seems to me that USPA doesn't enforce it's BSR's. Having said that, I think that the BSR's and the SIM's do us all a favor by establishing training procedures and recommendations. These procedures may be helpful to someone who is in a court of law being sued for neglience. Conversely, it may be used to prove negligence if this is the case. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
crutch 0 #11 August 3, 2003 Dave, being the S&TA here, I will tell you what I have been lead to believe. There are BSR's that are guidelines that should be followed. These were developed over the years by our elected officers (that piece of paper you are suppose to fillout and send in every couple years, it is on the back of your Parachutist). If the guidelines aren't followed, I (representing the USPA) should inform the jumper and advise him/her on the proper procedures. As far as instructors go, not following the BSRs should result in myself filing some paperwork with the USPA and effectively removing their ratings and/or license. This includes having a student jumping gear that does not meet the BSRs (a drop zone reponsibilty maybe, but the instructor needs be aware of it). Over the years I have seen the USPA pull ratings and licenses, even a couple incidents of pulling membership. This prevents the person from being insured through the membership and effectly grounded from USPA member drop zones. I hope this answers your question. Oh yeah, just a note, my ratings have been threaten on numerous occasions.blue skies, art Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
